I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

martian

Saw a Peugeot 505 the other day-I thought these had all gone to the junkyard in the sky!
Regarding prices for "oddball" makes-you never know who might want something strange..and when you have a car as rare as a Peugeot-who knows?
Of course, the parts situation would scare off most people.

Mr_Shiftright

About $600 to $1200 is the going rate for one. Parts are *tough* to find, and mechanics even tougher. I could have bought a very nice wagon for $1500 this past summer. Clean top to bottom.

fintail

Some lunatic where I live is delivering pizza in a 505...I can't imagine that is a hassle free vehicle for the job

andys120

Some lunatic where I live is delivering pizza in a 505

Methinks there'll be a lot of cold pizza deliveries in your nabe.

Mr_Shiftright

Snicker if you must (and we must) but you won't find a nicer riding, more comfortable 80s-era car than a 505.

tjc78

but you won't find a nicer riding, more comfortable 80s-era car

I don't know about that. IMO if Detroit did anything right in the 80s I think the bigger cars really rode well and had comfy seats. Handling... not so much. I know you disagree but nothing like taking a long trip in a Town Car, Deville, or LeSabre from that time period. They just float down the road.

Mr_Shiftright

Well I don't "disagree" within the limits of your definition, but really you are talking about poof-boxes that you wouldn't dare hustle around a corner---the Peugeot 505 will match your ride and comfort levels (or approach them within nit-picking distance) AND not put you in the weeks around turns---the body will roll, though.

Trying one is believing, that's all I can say. Maybe I'm too kind, but this is how I remember them.

kyfdx

I remember them the same way.. In the early '80s, a 505 was a heck of a nice Euro sport sedan... Almost.. not French... lol..

kyfdx

Porsche 944, Porsche 924 and a Subaru SVX...

fintail

Today's Berlin oddities - among others, maybe 20 Trabis, a Wartburg, Citroen CX diesel looking down on its luck, Citroen XM, BMW E30 wagon, Ford Probe turbo.

And the oddest thing I saw today:

andys120

I saw a twenty-something driver pull into a restaurant parking lot behind the wheel of a Fiat X 1/9. It had the big (post '73 bumpers), a decent white paint job, (unfortunate color for a sports car IMO), period alloys and was clean and free of rust and dents.

It must be 15 years since I've seen one in running condition, for some reason I see more of it's predecessor, the Fiat 850 Spider.

andre1969

Back when I delivered pizzas, I mainly depended on my '68 Dart, followed up by my '79 Newport, '86 Monte Carlo, '89 Gran Fury, and finally my 2000 Intrepid, but there were some nights where I pressed Grandma's '85 LeSabre into service. And let's just say I did things to that LeSabre that Buick never intended! One of the other drivers had a '90-93 era Accord that he actually raced. He had a nitrous setup in it, and it was a stick shift. One night, he tried to race with me, when I was driving the LeSabre. He didn't have the nitrous hooked up though, so he was just depending on whatever power the thing had without it. He said he had trouble keeping up with me, and wanted to know what I had done under the hood of that battleship Buick.

Nothing, whatsoever, although I did discover that if the car took off a LOT faster if you did the shifting yourself, rather than letting Buick do it for you. :P

Sometimes I wish I had held onto that Buick. It was a nice car, and honestly, a better car in many ways than my '79 New Yorker. But, it was just getting to the point that I had too many cars in the fleet, and it would have been too long before it qualified for historic tags, which would drop the insurance, registration, and exempt it from the emissions test. I got rid of it in 2002, and back then, Maryland required cars to be 25 years or older for historic plates. Nowadays, it's only 20 years or older, but at the time, that still wouldn't have helped that Buick.

ab348

I like the exterior of the '77 Catalina as well, especially the 2-door, and most especially when it came with 2-tone paintwork and Pontiac's styled steel wheels. It was a tough battle for them because Chevy had a big ad campaign in '77 (the "Now THAT'S More Like It" campaign) and the coupes had the unique bent-glass rear window. The Catalina had arguably a better dash but the seat upholstery was similar to Impala, so there wasn't much to choose between them there. I doubt that the liabilities of Pontiac's 301 engine were generally known then, so I don't know if that played any role.

Was the Catalina coupe available with buckets and console in '77? Olds offered that later on with the Holiday 88 coupe. Properly spec'ed out, they were very nice cars.

toomanyfumes

A friend had a '77 Catalina in the mid eighties. His was light blue, no vinyl roof, and the rally Pontiac wheels. It was a sharp car, and he had the 400 V8, which was rebuilt and moved the car pretty good.

IIRC, it had light blue cloth seats. I know it had column shift and pretty much only a speedo and gas gauge for instrumentation.

uplanderguy

The '77 Catalina could not be had with buckets and console. That only became available in Bonneville coupes in '79, through '81. A nice touch, I think...it made the Bonneville reminiscent of the original Grand Prix model of the '60's.

The '77 Catalina had a much richer-looking instrument panel than the '77 Impala, but I think the seat trim was probably not even as nice as the Impala. I do like the Catalina's lack of fender skirts and that huge slab of chrome rocker trim that the Bonneville had.

I always thought that even back into the '60's, compared to the Impala, the Catalina's seat trim and standard exterior molding situation, was disappointing...more like the Bel Air than the Impala. I felt that it was this way even into the '70's. I thought you had to get the Ventura Custom trim option to get seat trim rivaling Impala's. Again though, Pontiac always had a richer instrument panel than Chevy.

I like the '77-79 Caprice panel, with that 'piano black' panel above the glovebox door. I wish buckets and console would have been available on those cars.

toomanyfumes

Saw a 1974 Plymouth Sport Fury 2-door for sale yesterday. Looked to be in nice shape, apparently they didn't make them long, they came after the fuselage design then were downsized in 1975.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1974_Plymouth_Fury_II_coupe.png

andre1969

The Catalina had arguably a better dash but the seat upholstery was similar to Impala, so there wasn't much to choose between them there. I doubt that the liabilities of Pontiac's 301 engine were generally known then, so I don't know if that played any role.

I think one big problem is that buyers' tastes started changing in the later 1970's, where they wanted either cheap, basic transportation, or as much glitz as their money could buy. For instance, with Chevy, while the Impala had always been the breadwinner when it came to big cars, for 1977, suddenly the Caprice was the top seller. Same happened with the Catalina versus the Bonneville.

As for pricing, that was getting pretty close, as well. For instance, here's the base price listing for coupes in 1977:

Impala 250: $4876
Impala 305: $4996
LeSabre 231: $5033
Catalina 231: $5053 (my book doesn't list the base price of the V-8)
Delta 88 231: $5145
Caprice 250: $5187
Caprice 305: $5307
LeSabre Custom 231: $5322
Delta 88 Royale 231: $5363
Bonneville 301: $5411
Bonneville Brougham 301: $5897

So, an Impala with a 305 was actually a bit less than a Catalina with a 231! And the base LeSabre coupe slightly undercut the Catalina's price as well, and I'm sure most people viewed the LeSabre as a more upscale car. The base LeSabre didn't sell very well though, as most buyers forked over the extra money for the Custom. Same with the Delta, as buyers stepped up to the Royale.

The Bonneville Brougham looks like it's priced pretty far out of the league of those other cars, but it was also pretty upscale. I think Pontia was still trying to hold onto their delusions of grandeur from the old Grand Ville days, and trying to position it more as an alternative to the C-body Electra/Ninety-Eight.

andre1969

Those big '74 Furys actually ran from 1974-77, but weren't very popular. For 1975, when the "New Small Fury" came out, they called the big one Gran Fury.

Sales were something like this:

1974: ~115,000
1975: ~74,000
1976: ~42,000
1977: ~48,000

The 4-door hardtop was dropped after 1975. Supposedly the 2-door hardtop was offered through the end in 1977, but I think most of them had the landau roof option. The vast majority of them were 4-doors, and they were popular as police cars and taxis.

In 1974, all of them had the quad headlight setup, but then for 1975, the Brougham model used a strange setup with a single headlight and a big rectangular turn signal, and a more pretentious stand-up grille. For 1976-77, they all went to that single headlight look.

I think the quad headlight models are very handsome looking cars for the time. They look a bit Buick-ish, but I like that clean, non-pretentious style, which was definitely NOT the in-thing in the mid-1970's!

ab348

It's a fair guess that the Catalina with 301 would be around $5200, so for $100 more you could get a Caprice with the 305, which I suspect most people would find more appealing. You can see from those prices a good example of GM's problem with too many overlapping brands, and why the Caprice was so popular. While I was never a fan of the styling of the LeSabre of that generation, it had a much nicer interior than the Poncho. Both the Buick and the Olds would carry a bit more cachet than the Catalina for about the same money.

kyfdx

..1st generation Toyota Camry.. about '84?

In predictable condition... with all the rust, it's hard to believe any of those are still on the road..

andre1969

If it had the old style quad rectangular headlights, it would be an '83-84. For 1985-86, they went to composite headilghts.

I still see an occasional first-gen Camry in these parts.

andre1969

For comparison, here's the price spead on the B-body 2-door hardtops from 1967:

Impala 250: $2740
Impala 283: $2845
Impala SS 250: $2898
Catalina 400: $2951
Impala SS 283: $3003
Delmont 88 330: $3063
Caprice 283: $3078
LeSabre 340: $3084
Delmont 88 425: $3126
Executive 400: $3165
LeSabre Custom 340: $3172
Delta 88 425: $3310
Wildcat 430: $3382
Bonneville 400 $3448
Delta 88 Custom 425: $3522
Wildcat Custom 430: $3603

Even though there was still some overlap, I don't think it was as bad. The Catalina came in a bit cheaper than a V-8 Impala SS or a Caprice, but was still cheaper than the cheapest Buick or Olds. And, in those days, it was a helluva lot of car for the money...standard 400, compared to the 6-cyl and 283's of Chevy, and the 330 and 340 that Olds and Buick used. And the Catalina was a bigger car than any of those Chevies, and that's something that mattered back in those days. And, the LeSabre and Olds 88's, while they started off with smaller engines, were larger overall.

And, even at the upper end, a Wildcat or Delta 88 still came in higher than a Bonneville. However, one model my book doesn't list is the Bonneville Brougham, which I guess was just a trim package and not an actual model. That might have priced higher than the Wildcat Custom or Delta 88 Custom. However, I think the Bonneville Brougham was only offered as a 4-door hardtop, so its range was limited.

Interestingly, my book shows the Wildcat as being on a 126" wb from 1965-68, same as the Electra or Ninety-Eight. For 1969 it went back down to the LeSabre/88 wheelbase. I'd always wondered if the Wildcat really got that big, or if it's just a misprint on the part of my book? It still looked like a B-body to me, versus a C-body. I guess they could have just used the same trick that Pontiac did with the Catalina versus the Excecutive/Bonneville...move the rear axle further back in relation to the C-pillar. It didn't give you any more interior room, but did make for a larger trunk.

andys120

I saw a pristine 1959 Cadillac 2-door h/t, white over red. It looked as hideous as ever but it's fun to see that much over exuberance packed into one car.

fintail

There are tons of those still on the road in the Seattle area, including the 5 door model.

Today's odd German sightings - 2x MB C126, Porsche 924, MB W114, 60s Opel wagon with historic plates, what I think was a fake VW Hebmueller, VW Scirocco, BMW E36 sedan with what I think was a Baur cabrio conversion - had full door frames etc...and this:

omarman

Of all the '59 Cadillacs the series 75 limo is the most jarring image to me with the formal roof and wild fins. Wonder how many of those survived?

imidazol97

Here's one that survived, sort of.



In black the fins don't look too bad.

uplanderguy

Andre, in '67 you could get the Bonneville Brougham in hardtop coupe or hardtop sedan. In '66, and '68 and '69 (not sure about '70), you could even get a Brougham convertible, with leather seating. They didn't say "Brougham" anywhere on the outside at all though.

andys120

With the profusion of white limos these days people might not realize that limos back in the 50s and 60s were almost always black. Then again they weren't regularly used for weddings and high school proms then but mainly for funerals.

crkyolfrt

I spotted more than one used Subaru Sambars, in various forms...van, pickup, 4x4 and even supercharged versions with A/C. Wow, eh?
Seems this guy must import them over here, probably from Japan. Prices were around 5000 - 7500 Cdn dollars. How much is that compared to 395000 YEN?

They were automatics
Otherwise, I would have been real keen on a 4x4 he had with A/C.

stickguy

a mid 60s Dodge hardtop. Mid size one. no idea which model.

a 57 bel air, restored. Interesting part is that it was a 4 door. and another shoebox, I think a 56, lower line in kind of rat rod condition and mods.

and a nicely restored 66 mustang hardtop.

oh, and a pair of '91ish CRx si-s (with the rear glass panel) travelling together. Looked OK, but one didn't smell too good!

andys120

Nothing unusual about seeing an old Camry on the street but it's not often you see one from the first generation (early-mid 80s IIRC) and even more unusual to see a five- door hatchback version like this one and in almost perfect shape. >

ab348

I stumbled upon this fine example of the '78 Dodge Monaco, the renamed one on the Coronet/Charger platform. Plymouth had the "small Fury", while Dodge marketed theirs using the "Merci, Monaco..." tagline.

Who knew one this nice was still around?

I think his price is more than a bit optimistic for a car that has near-zero collector cachet, but it is one of what must be a very small number remaining in this condition. The parts-store air cleaner and yellow plug wires disappoint, and for a car never driven in rain or snow one wonders why there is a snow brush in the trunk. Neat to see though.

bumpy

but one didn't smell too good!

Test pipe.

andre1969

Yeah, you gotta love when they call something that's about 215-221" long, depending on the body style as "The New, Small Fury". Didn't they initially bill the Cordoba as "The New, Small Chrysler" as well?

When I was younger, I didn't like those midsized Furys and Monacos...not that they were bad cars for the time, but I was just such a GM fan that I loved their offerings so much better. And, well, those 70's midsizers are kinda lame compared to the hot late 60's models. I guess you could say that about most of the 70's offerings though.

They have grown on me, though. And it's pretty rare to see a 2-door version. Most of them were probably sold as 4-doors, and as police cars or taxis. And while that's not a "true" hardtop in the sense that the rear window is stationary, I like that style better than the ones with the optional landau roof and opera window. And I always was a sucker for the right shade of green, so I like that one...but, not at that price!

Mr_Shiftright

I'm afraid that for a '78 Monaco it's worse than "near-zero collector cachet. For this poor unfortunate, it IS zero collector cachet. Most price guides don't even list it, and the ones that do, post prices that would make the seller cringe. He'd be really lucky to get $2500--$3000 for it---really lucky.

andre1969

I'm afraid that for a '78 Monaco it's worse than "near-zero collector cachet. For this poor unfortunate, it IS zero collector cachet. Most price guides don't even list it, and the ones that do, post prices that would make the seller cringe. He'd be really lucky to get $2500--$3000 for it---really lucky.

I'll admit, I do like it. But, I'm more content to just look at it and admire it from afar. You don't see me rushing to get my checkbook, even for $2500-3000. I have a feeling that most people who want a car from this era want to find the most optioned-up, biggest engine example they can. If that sucker was fully loaded and had a 400 in it, I might be tempted. Most old car books still list the 440 as still being offered in the Monaco, but I think that was only in copcars by that time.

omarman

Last summer I found a 1978 Monaco 440 A38 Police Pursuit on CL and the seller was asking $9500. Looked good but no idea if the seller got any nibbles at that price.

Looks like this (mint) 318 V8 Monaco 2-dr is rust-free and wearing factory paint - at least that's what the pics show. But even if it checks out it's still only a low option '78 Monaco survivor with "near-zero collector cachet" as you pointed out.

If the seller had looked around before asking that price he might have spotted one like this in Hemmings. It's a '78 Monaco 4-dr sedan with 36K plus miles, 360 V8, and asking price of $3,700. Garaged, no rust, looks good and somebody will want it...

Hey Andre! Have you ever been to Toledo? :shades:

andre1969

I like that '78 sedan better than the coupe, mainly because of the 360. Wonder if it's a 2- or 4-bbl? Even the 318 isn't a horrible engine in one of these cars though. I think it still had around 145-150 hp in 1978. Even the 135 hp 318 that my '79 Newport had wasn't all that bad.

If I was gonna get one of these intermediate Mopars though, the one that really gets me going is the 1978-79 Magnum.

texases

Re: that '78 Monaco - I wonder how big the market for these is in Nova freakin' Scotia! Looked up the address: 60 miles outside of Halifax. I wonder how much luck he'd have selling it at just about any price?!?

andre1969

from that unloved 1970's era that I kinda like: 1977 LeMans Grand Safari wagon. At first I thought it was a '76 that was mislabeled, as that's a '76 grille. But the ad says 301, which came out for '77. And it has a stand-up hood ornament, which a 1976 LeMans with that grille wouldn't have had.

Kinda oddly equipped, with power windows, power seat, but a/c delete. I'd think a/c would almost be mandatory in a wagon! I imagine a heavy wagon like that is a bit of a slug with a 301. My '76 coupe, which is probably at least a few hundred lb lighter, isn't exactly a screamer with the 350-4bbl.

I can't remember the last time I've seen a '76-77 LeMans wagon. I did see a '73 or so for sale at Carlisle this past summer.

While a 301 might not exactly turn one of these cars into a hotrod, I just found something even slower... 1976 Grand LeMans coupe with an Olds 260! Looks like it might be a really nice car (hard to tell from just the one pic), but probably every bit as overpriced as that '78 Monaco coupe. And with that engine, this sucker might actually be slow enough to be dangerous. CR tested a '77 Cutlass Supreme sedan with the 260, and got 0-60 in about 21 seconds.

tjc78

That LeMans is only about an hour from me. The price is just crazy IMO. For the right money a car in that condition would be a great candidate to throw a crate motor (or an LT1 swap) at and have some fun cruising around in.

fintail

Not really obscure...except that it was seen in Potsdam Germany today...

toomanyfumes

I learned to drive on a '76 Cutlass Supreme sedan with the 260 V8. Unbelieveably slow. First thing my Dad told me was "Don't ever pull in front of traffic with this car, it has no pickup whatsoever." He bought it new, and the dealer could never get the carb adjusted right, so until it was completely warmed up, it would stall randomly.

I wouldn't pay 1\3 the price he's asking for that Pontiac with that engine.

ab348

There is an active market here in Nova Scotia for collector cars -- but not at that price for that car. He might find someone willing to give him $6K for it though.

texases

I figured there was a market, just not a big one. This is a very low-demand model, one that would have trouble selling in LA at anywhere near the price. Just can't be much demand. Kind of like if that car was for sale in, say, Paris...Texas, that is!

fintail

I saw another Barkas van today, a mint W123 in red with historic plates, a W116 of unknown variety, and a CLK that was so lowline, it had hubcaps. Last night I saw a W123 taxi still in service.

lemko

I still remember the TV commercial for those mid-sized Furies...

"Smaaaallll Fury! The car a lot of people have been waiting for!"

lemko

Methinks anybody who wants one of these midsized Furies or Monacos would prefer one in Hazzard County livery! :P



P.S. Andre, if you have that book "Cars of the Sensational '70s, two of your cars are on page 379!

fintail

Today's oddities - chrome bumper MGB-GT, 2CV, 2x Talbot Rancho at one house (glutton for punishment), Hyundai XG (maybe the only one in the country), 190 E 2.3-16

texases

Saw one of these Celicas, don't know that I've seen one before - I guess they were aftermarket.