I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

fintail

I remember that thing, I think it was on local craigslist or ebay once.

And lest we forget, the Custom Cloud

Mr_Shiftright

Looks like 4 different cars were glued together.

andre1969

And let's not forget this gem, which has a lot more in common with my '76 LeMans than I'd care to admit!

Even the VINs are pretty close.
Mine is 2G37P6PXXXXXX
and this one is 2J57W6P308125

I know the 2 stands for "Pontiac"
I think the "G" is for "LeMans" and the "J" is "Grand Prix"
37 is the code for the the 2-door coupe. I don't know why the Stutz has a "57" then. Maybe the "57" was for the more formal C-pillar, and all Grand Prixes used that code?
The first "P" in my VIN is for the Pontiac 350-4bbl (I found out this was a California-only engine so yuck, I ended up with a smogger!). I think the "W" in the Stutz is the 455-4bbl.
The "6" is for 1976 model year.
The next "P" is the factory code. I dunno where this "P" factory is located, but it looks like both my LeMans and this Stutz were born there.

fintail

P = Purgatory? :shades:

I think that kind of Stutz actually pulled it off better than many, the pimped out Caddys and that Monte, anyway.

andre1969

I think if they cleared some of the excess off that Stutz, such as the spare tire in the trunk, the exposed exhaust pipes, and those big, round headlights, it woudn't be bad. I like the roofline of it...very modern considering it came out around 1974 or whatever. It makes me think a bit of a '79 Eldorado, with the rear quarter window blanked out.

If they'd clear off that excess, and maybe give it some hidden headlights, I think it would actually look pretty sharp. It has sort of a Virgil Exner influence to it.

Mr_Shiftright

I find it hard to take them seriously but perhaps I will mellow with age.

omarman

I think you're right about the body code. For that gen anyway every Grand Prix came with the 2 door hardtop 57 series code. Factory code P is Pontiac, MI.

fintail

Typical 70s problem, bric a brac.

The 79+ Eldo can be pretty sharp IMO if it is decluttered, with blackwalls, wheels, no vinyl top, etc...I know a few were made that way.

ab348

Do I remember correctly - wasn't the Stutz revival a Virgil Exner design?

andre1969

Do I remember correctly - wasn't the Stutz revival a Virgil Exner design?

I think it might have been. There was a pretty strong similarity to Exner's Dusenberg revival. At least, if the Dusenberg revival had been based on a '73 Grand Prix, rather than a '60-66 Imperial.

And I think that traces back, slightly, to the 1958 Imperial D'Elegance showcar.

uplanderguy

I know the 2 stands for "Pontiac"

Really? I know these days, and for a while, "2" at the beginning of the serial no. meant built in Canada; "1" meant built in the 'States. Lots of midsize GM's of the mid-'70's were built at Oshawa, Ontario. Just wondering.

andre1969

That started in 1981, when they went from the 13 digit VIN to a 17 digit VIN.

They stuck on two digits at the beginning, where the first was country of origin, second was manufacturer ("G" for GM).

The third digit became the division (still a "2" for Pontiac), and the 4th digit was for passive restraint (odd, because I wasn't aware that they were putting automatic belts or airbags in cars in 1981). And, somewhere in there, they stuck a "check digit", whatever that means.

So, from '72-80, I guess the only way to find out if a car was built in Canada would have been to check the code for the assembly plant, and then find out what it stood for?

Oh, FWIW, I've been getting most of my Pontiac VIN decode info from this website: http://www.yearone.com/updatedsinglepages/id_info/firebird/fbvin.asp It's actually for the Firebird/Trans Am, but it's still useful for deciphering engine codes.

uplanderguy

So, from '72-80, I guess the only way to find out if a car was built in Canada would have been to check the code for the assembly plant, and then find out what it stood for?

I remember too, that if you could open the driver's door, the label with the build date had a leaf design on it and also said "General Motors of Canada, LTD".

explorerx4

The check digit is the 10th column.
Basically, the numbers/letters in the other 16 columns are converted to a numeric value, then multiplied by a specific value for each column.
The total is summed up and the number in the last (digit) column becomes the 'check digit'.
Say you have a 3 digit VIN "1FC" and the column multipliers are 4, 10, and 7.
1 x 4 = 4, plus (F=15) x 10 = 150, plus (C=12) x 7 = 84.
4 + 150 + 84 = 238. Check digit = 8.

omarman

NHTSA requires a check digit in the 9th posit of the VIN which a state licensing agency may use to verify that the vehicle has a valid VIN number assigned by the manufacturer. Discovery Channel reports that it was originated by the Freemasons based upon the column "9" which, when turned upside down and repeated 3 times will reveal ...
O o
/¯/______________________
|AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!
\_\

lemko

...really nice copper-metallic colored 1965 Ford Thunderbird with a tan vinyl roof stopped at a light on Rhawn Street near Verree Road going west in NE Philly.

fintail

Saw a BMW Z8 in traffic in Olympia WA today, and heading out to the coast, spotted of all things on a highway, a big 1933-34 senior Packard, sedan.

uplanderguy

Saw a white-on-white '85 Eldorado Biarritz at a cruise last night, with 5,700 miles, and I believed it by the looks underhood and the white leather interior and white carpeting on the lower door panels! It had the Touring Suspension only (emblem on trunk but didn't have the pseudo-Euro black Rubbermaid moldings along the bottom, etc., which I hated on those cars). It looked great. Owner said he bought it with 2,900 miles. Asked if he feared the 4.1 engine and he said he talked to a lot of owners and it was about 50/50 as far as who thought they were good and who didn't. He said after a certain serial no. there were improvements, and his was after that number. I love the razor-edge styling of those Eldos--reminds me of the '67-70.

He said it actually rode kind of hard with the Touring Suspension!

No sunroof, which was rather unusual for those cars.

andre1969

Asked if he feared the 4.1 engine and he said he talked to a lot of owners and it was about 50/50 as far as who thought they were good and who didn't. He said after a certain serial no. there were improvements, and his was after that number.

I wonder when, exactly, that improvement to the 4.1 engine was made? During the 1985 model year or sometime earlier?

If some of them are actually somewhat reliable, it might actually change my opinion on those cars. I always liked the style of the '79-85 Eldorado and the '80-85 Seville, but swore if I ever got one it would be an '81 or earlier. I've heard that if the '81 V-8-6-4 acts up, you can just disconnect the cylinder deactivation feature, and it's as simple as pulling a wire. And the '80 models had a regular Caddy 368, although California models got the Olds 350. Interestingly, on the EPA's website, they list that 350 as a Cadillac engine, but I'm sure it was still the Olds 350. Interestingly, the 350 in the Eldo/Seville was fuel-injected, but in the Toro/Riv, it had a 4-bbl carb. At least, according to the EPA spreadsheet.

When it comes to the coupe though, I actually have a preference for the Riviera or Toronado.

ab348

Did you ask him what he paid for it? That would spark another interesting debate here...

My mind was boggled as to how GM/Cadillac could design such a poor engine in the late '70s. The V8-6-4 was one thing - that was a feature added to an existing engine that itself was pretty good already, even if the deactivation wasn't - but to then come out with such a turkey of an engine as a clean-sheet design just astounded me. IT's not like they didn't know how to build engines.

One thing I always wondered about (still do even today) though is how deep the talent pool is when it comes to engine design. If you look at GM's history, they did the original OHV Caddy and Olds V-8s for '49, then the rest of the line over the next few years. For a long time after that they just did variations on those existing designs. There were the updated Olds Rocket V-8s in the mid-60s and Buick did the same around the same time. Then you start to see things like the Vega and its disaster of an engine, the 301 Pontiac, and the Cad 4.1 - none very good. Maybe all the engine design talent had retired by then. The stuff that came after that was pretty hit and miss, like the Chevy 60-degree V-6, the Quad 4, the DOHC 3.4, and even the Northstar had issues. The Ecotec line seems just OK, and the current 3.6 V-6 has its own problems.

Can anyone design a good engine these days?

dieselone

I've heard that if the '81 V-8-6-4 acts up, you can just disconnect the cylinder deactivation feature

Had a HS buddy that drove a handed down '81 Seville with the 8-6-4. Car was pretty much a pile of crap with 80-90k on it and only 7 years old. Of course the cylinder deactivation was deactivated and it ran fine after that. It was comfortable though, well except for the smell of burning oil that always came through the vents when cruising around town.

Another friend had an older brother that drove a mid '80's Eldo Biarritz convertible (ASC conversion IIRC). Neat car, but IIRC it was over $30k back then. Ouch.

fintail

I am in podunk today, where there's no money and old cars hang on for longer. Have already seen an 80s Olds Calais, an 84-85 Cavalier convertible, an 86-87 Tempo coupe, and a 78 or so Cougar, all in decent shape.

ab348

Here's a nice one, though even I would agree that the price is insane:

'79 Bonneville 2-door

Ignore the title, this is a '79.

explorerx4

9th does make sense, it's right in the middle.

fintail

Wow, that's nice. I bet Andre would murder someone for that :shades:

I just saw an odd Poncho too, a Sunbird convertible...so that makes 2 J car convertibles today. This one had a CHMSL and the old front end, so I guess it would be 86-87 or so. It was looking OK, but not particularly well kept.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah good luck selling that at 3X its value. Well Hemmings ads are cheap, so no harm done....and WHO KNOWS...all you need is one person to cash in a lottery ticket and go on a burn....

berri

That, along with the similar LeSabre coupe, is my favorite look for the downsized full size GM cars. I also liked the original 77 Impala coupe roofline until it was squared off a few years later. They still look clean to me all these years later. I'm guessing they all went to the uglier (in my opinion) squared off look later for the sake of change and to facilitate those vinyl brougham roofs. But then most of the production output was four door sedans anyway and those were decent looking vehicles for the times too.

I also thought that vintage Pontiac had the nicest looking dash, followed by the Buicks.

andre1969

that is a nice Bonneville. Believe it or not, I think that's also a base model. The Brougham, as I recall, had even plusher seats. And in those days, sometimes cloth was actually the standard interior, with vinyl being an extra-cost option. I can see that in some cases, where the cloth was really cheap, but that Bonneville cloth looks pretty nice to me.

I like the fact that it has full gauges. It would be even nicer if it had power windows and the 350, rather than that 301.

The asking price is crazy, though! I could see if this was some fully-loaded, 5,000 mile pristine car. But at 52,000 miles, I don't think it should get *too* much credit for being low miles. Also, at that price point, I shouldn't see stained carpet (top right pic, which shows the driveshaft hump). And, maybe it's just the light, camera trick, or something, but in the shot of the open trunk, the area around the opening looks a bit sloppy, as if it's been repainted. Of cours, it could also just be a bit clashy there, because of the two-toning.

Overall a really nice car, but if I ever seek out one of these things, it's going to be a '77-78, with either a 350, 400, or 403. Most people would probably want the most luxurious example they could find, but my preference is actually the '77 Catalina.

ab348

I have a poster here somewhere that I bought at the Oldsmobile Centennial in 1997, which shows 100 years of Olds cars. For '77, it shows a Delta 88 coupe. But the strange thing is that instead of showing the tall rectangular rear quarter window that it actually had, it shows one the same shape as on the Pontiac and Buick 2-doors. It seemed to me that they planned to use that shape - which does look a lot better - but changed late in the design process, to be different.

uplanderguy

Interesting about the pic of the '77 Delta 88 with the Pontiac-style quarter window. They're good cars, but I like the Olds the least of the Chev-Pont-Buick-Olds standard-size cars of that era. I think the Buick had the best instrument panel (although I liked the Caprice with full gauges and the piano-black panel over the glovebox too), and I also liked the Pontiac dash. I'd like a '77 Caprice coupe with F41 and the Custom interior and 350, or a '79 Bonneville with no vinyl top and the buckets and console and 350 best of all those cars. I remember the cars driving wonderfully (at least by standards then).

ab348

I owned one of each except for the Pontiac, but a friend had one of them in the late '70s. I never cared for the Chevy dash. The Olds IP was designed oddly, but had some presence with the big hooded section that held the instruments and controls. From a design perspective the Olds dash was strange with controls scattered all over, but it sure looked good at night with all sorts of lighted switches and the like. The vast expanse of plastichrome and bad fake woodgrain did it no favors though. The Buick dash was my favorite of the 3 as well, especially the ones like mine that had the silver-faced gauges. The Buick dash was a homage to Buicks of the late 40s/early 50s with the large round dials on both sides of the dash.

Back in 1980 I dealt with a fellow who had a '79 Caprice coupe with the 350, black/silver 2-tone outside, red inside, F41. He special-ordered it. Lovely car. I liked driving all of them though. Smooth-riding, quiet, soaked up bumps well, tons of room. Just great cars.

martian

What a find-I saw one parked-it was kinda ratty-with rust bubbles (looks like a cheap Maaco paintjob).
Are these cars restorable today? I haven't seen one in decades-and they were not a big seller in the USA.
British reliability and parts made from unobtainim!
Still, a very clever design-too bad the execution was so flawed!

Mr_Shiftright

You could restore one today but you'd have about a $7000 car when you were done, so I doubt too many people except a devoted historian would take one on.

fintail

Parked at the 90 year old widow's house who lives across from my mother - Volvo 740 Turbo wagon, white, decent shape. I know it doesn't belong to the old lady. I still remember the "intercooler" script on those.

Speaking of wagons, also saw wagon versions of the Celebrity, Ciera, and Century today, and a ~78-83 Olds midsize (Cutlass?) wagon too. Along with a Courier, a Luv, and a Mazda Sundowner.

uplanderguy

Speaking of wagons, also saw wagon versions of the Celebrity, Ciera, and Century today, and a ~78-83 Olds midsize (Cutlass?) wagon too.

Come on, fintail, everybody over on the GM forum knows that's impossible! And the newest of those cars are about twenty years old now.

omarman

I know what you mean...the longevity factor of old Detroit iron v.s. Japanese imports is a difficult thing for some people to reconcile. If there were even just half as many Datsun survivors as Chevrolets, then the "unification theory" of superior import reliability would be complete, all wrapped up nice and tidy.

I don't doubt all of the miled-up claims of CamCord owners either. Well, at least until the CL ads require breathalyzer screening, "200k freeway miles! If you know anything about these cars then you know they are just getting broken in at this mileage and ready for another 200k!"

Re: Chevy Celebrity wagons
Those little wing windows in the rear were a convenience added for the 2 passenger jump seats in back. That brought the total Celebrity wagon seating capacity up to 8! More than the downsized Malibu wagon. :surprise:

uplanderguy

You know, the funny thing is, I thought those cars made a handsome wagon! Just the right size. And you could get the Eurosport trim and aluminum wheels on the wagon, too, which made it a neat 'sportwagon' with buckets and console if you wanted, and the 2.8 MFI V6 was available which was actually a darling of the magazines then. I'd require a 3-speed automatic. I know the rack-and-pinion was a problem area at the time--I had one--but my dealer paid 100% for the repair after the warranty had expired.

uplanderguy

Reminds me of a story. A coworker in western MI a few years ago--extreme western MI; virtually a block from the lake--had an old box Volvo with 400K miles on its second or third engine, but he was proud (rightly) of the longevity. He then gave me the schpiel about how domestics don't last. In the employee parking lot, within ten seconds I could point out three or four '80's Chevy Caprices still being used daily. There were no foreign cars of that same age in the lot. And even though it was Michigan, that city was closer to Chicago and South Bend than it was to Detroit.

uplanderguy

Andre, sorry for the delay in responding. The guy knew a specific serial no. which he rattled off for the change in the 4.1, but I didn't ask if that was in the '85 model year or not.

I like the '84 and '85 styling of the Eldo probably the best of the entire generation, because there's no engine emblem on the front fenders, and the side moldings are the color of the car, with no chrome beading/outline...looks clean to me. But that 4.1 would give me pause.

To the other poster who asked, I did not, and would not, ask him what he paid. Reminds me of a story at the 2007 Studebaker Drivers' Club international meet in South Bend. I was admiring a '56 Sky Hawk--rare hardtop model with no fins and a Stude 289 engine--owned by an older fellow and driven with five people from New Hampshire to South Bend. His car was beautiful and had a small crowd around it. He said he bought it in this condition a few years ago. Someone said, "What'd you pay for it?" The guy said in his best New England accent, but politely, "That's my business but no one else's". The questioner slinked away quietly!

ab348

In the '80s my brother was in the insurance business and got a company car. For a time he had a Celebrity Eurosport wagon, but it came with the 2.5 4-banger. Nice car aside from the engine, which wasn't enough for that car. I agree that the wagon version looked better than the other body styles.

andre1969

That brought the total Celebrity wagon seating capacity up to 8! More than the downsized Malibu wagon.

Unfortunately, when dealing with RWD, live-rear-axle cars, I think old-school midsize or downsized-fullsize (GM B-bodies, Ford Panther) was about as small as you could get, and still have a third row seat.

IIRC, similar-sized cars like the Plymouth Volare and Ford Fairmont didn't offer a third-row seat either.

I would think that something like a Dodge Magnum, which had an independent rear suspension, which allowed the gas tank to be moved under the back seat rather than under the trunk floor, a 3rd row seat would have been doable, but I don't think they ever chose to go that way.

Actually, a Magnum isn't all that space-efficient, anyway. 120" wheelbase, probably around 205" long, yet it only had about 72 cubic feet of cargo volume...the same as a '78-83 Malibu, which was about a foot shorter in wheelbase and overall length.

imidazol97

Why do people do bad things to good Buicks? These cars could have been restored in original condition and be beautiful.

Mr_Shiftright

Well it's probably a lot cheaper to customize them than restore them...you don't have to fuss with hunting down parts, you don't have to worry about accuracy and you can often patch up a lot of sins with creative filling and welding. I can see the allure.

fintail

I can actually tolerate the 58 (runs and hides) :shades:

fintail

It appears when people must make do, cars still last a long time, even if they seemed like junk when new. Also saw an AMC Concord, and that sad old blue-grey fintail I photographed a couple months back is still in the same spot, rusting away - far beyond reclamation. I'd give scrap value for it anyway.

Saw a Nissan Axxess there too - how many of those can be left? Along with a first gen Acura Legend sedan that wasn't smoking.

fintail

That last bit translates either to "I paid far more than it is really worth, but I lack the balls to admit I made a decision based on emotion", or "wifey has no idea what I paid for this, and if she finds out, my voice will permanently be several octaves higher" :shades:

I love answering when people ask what I paid for the fintail, as I paid little for it many years ago when they were worth even less than today, and it needed a little work. Nobody believes it. A friend of mine thought it was worth like 50K!! :surprise:

Mr_Shiftright

Or as we delicately put it in the classic car world---"you didn't pay too much...you're just ahead of the market right now..." :P

uplanderguy

With my '66 Stude, I stopped telling people what I paid. For one thing, when I sold my '63 and '64 Studes this year, I researched what others sold for--did a lot of looking into. Of course, even in the Studebaker Drivers' Club, locally, are lots of 'experts'. I'm certain they never did one ounce of looking to see what similar cars sold for, but boy did several have opinions like "Sheesh, you coulda got more than that". I started saying, "Based on what?" Of course, based only on whatever number they were pulling out of their...well, you know.

Mr_Shiftright

Which is why I'd rather go to dealers than to club members for pricing information, and vice-versa for technical and historical information

imidazol97

1964. Windshield card said it was 1 of a kind.