I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

andre1969

but just think though, if instead of us getting the Chevette, as it was, that we got a full lineup of the Opel version, just badged as Chevies and with a little grille tweaking? As it is, once the Chevette had a 4-door body style added, it was pretty much the top-selling car in its class, at least until Escort sales took off in 1982. Having a 4-door and 2-door sedan, a wagon model, and a fastback, in addition to (or instead of) the cheap little 2- and 4-door hatchbacks we ended up with, I'm sure sales would've gone nowhere but up.

As for Opels, weren't they sold through Buick dealers? That would be most of the problem, right there. Nobody went to a Buick dealer back in the 60's or 70's looking for a small, economy-minded car. And I'm sure the Buick dealers didn't know how to service them, either.

andys120

starting IIRC in '06. Dunno if they'll be badged as Saturns or Opels (I suspect "Saturn").

Mr_Shiftright

Americans can't even spell the name right in classified ads. Usually it's shown as "Opal". The name just draws a blank here, and it is my impression that it is not particularly esteemed in Europe either. It is THEIR Chevette in other words.

tarik

Your assessment was true until maybe 10-12 years ago. Until then, Opel had an image similar to Buick - namely a boring and undynamic appliance.

Since then, new and capable cars have come out and contend with various VWs for the top spots in sales statistics. I agree with andre, the Chevette/Kadett City was the watered-down econo-model of the line-up, the underdog. Had the entire range been advertised as a "family of cars", maybe we wouldn't be talking about these cars that way. And the I-Mark stunt did its part, too, I'm sure.

But as long as potential buyers are put off by their own inability to pronounce Opel, as you suggest, they probably are not worth the car in the first place...

andre1969

probably bought Desotas back in the 50's...

nolid5

lancerfixer

...oftentimes the owners are dictating their ads over the phone to some operator at the paper who doesn't know an Opel from an Opal from a Fiat from a Merkur, and by God, spellcheck says their's no "e" in Opel (and it just spits up when you enter "Merkur" or "Avanti.") I'm pretty owners know how to spell the names of their own cars (usually.)

Mr_Shiftright

Another common typo is Alpha Romeo; also Camero and Porshe

wimsey1

did share the same platform it hardly makes Opels in general "Chevettes". The Kadett always had high performance versions (Rallye, GTE) as did the Vauxhall Chevette (HS2300).
And Opel has larger models.
I agree that it is not a prestige brand by any means however.

Just remembered that one of my previous cars was rather obscure. An '82 Corolla.
Well, an '82 Corolla Convertible! Chopped by a company named Griffith. I've never seen another one. Chopping the top off really improved the lines of that car (plus a lower suspension & nice wheels). I was always amazed at the double takes 7 compliments that car got.

ghulet

....I've seen a few of those RWD Corolla convertibles, and for some reason they were usually in that goofy brown/tan combination Toyota was so fond of back then. Did Griffith also do the '78-81 Celica convertibles?

Mr_Shiftright

Wasn't that a company called "Sun Chaser"?

Can you think of any re-badged car that was really a hit in America?

jrosasmc

How about the Chevy Nova (1985-88) that was a rebaged Corolla? That was a modest hit in my book.

fintail

Shiftright should just love the price on this baby

http://www.cars-on-line.com/76mb13411.html

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, Lord, where do they come from?

This guy is obviously an old-time carny at best, and a shameless liar at worst. I mean, c'mon, his claims are absolutely laughable....38 mph and "cruising effortlessly" is a pretty neat trick for a car that weights 3,500 lbs, has 77 horsepower and a 0-60 time of 21 seconds!

I can testify from personal experience that at 65 mph you feel like you are in a World War II bomber plummeting in a death spiral, and that 26 mpg would be about all you could hope for with a hurricane-force tail wind.

Still, all jokes aside from the clueless (let us hope it's not more malicious than that) person selling it--it would be a neat car to have with such low miles.

True value in the real world? I suppose someone might pay $6,000 for it, maybe $7,500 if you found two drunks with money at an auction. So he's only over market by 300% or so.

Another "birthday cake" car, glued to the showroom floor I fear.

One's asking price is, after all, the noble exercise of your First Amendment rights.

andre1969

a Corolla convertible. Which 2-door did they use to make it? I'm guessing it was the hardtop coupe, since they already had the frameless door windows, and roll-down rear windows to begin with, whereas the 2-door sedan would've required more chopping.

I have seen the Celica convertibles, though. IIRC, weren't they kind of a compromise, where you had a lift-out section over the front seat, and just the back part folded down, leaving a roll bar? Or is that something else I'm thinking of?

fintail

I think the 38mph typo you made is actually more accurate than the 38mpg claimed by the lunatic who is selling that MB. Insane....21 grand...what kind of vintage MB can I get for that...I could get a lovely 113 and a lovely 108 sedan, a mint 111 sedan and coupe...etc etc. It would be a fun car though, yeah, good for MB shows and the like. Would be a shame to rack up the miles on it.

I can't think of a Corolla convert either, but I do remember the Celica sunchaser. I think some of the ones made in like 80 and 81 were that rollbar type. There are a few later ones around here, from the angular 82-85 series and the 86-89 ones.

michaellno

...if that guy thinks he can get $21K for his '76, I guess my parents should have held on to their '72 220 Diesel. It's 4 years older, has even fewer horses (65, IIRC), and it didn't even have power steering. I'm thinking it's worth, what, $25K? It was that beautiful burnt orange color with tan MB-Tex interior.

That car smoked like an inmate on death row. I got my folks custom plates for it one year for a Christmas gift -- "REAL SLO".

Mr_Shiftright

fintail says:

 "Would be a shame to rack up the miles on it."

Why not rack up the miles? 300Ds have a market value of about $1,500 and going down fast. What would one be saving the car for? A bomb shelter? Geranium planter? This is a German taxicab, not a Cadillac V-12 dual cowl phaeton.

wimsey1

Yep, my Corolla was brown with a tan interior.
Shifty, they did make the "Sunchaser", a Celica with a targa top, roll hoop and a folding rear to the roof. My Corolla had a full power top.

stickguy

the Mazda RX-8 also had the 2-part top (targa section and fold down rear).

ghulet

What was this and when did they build it? I think you may mean the RX-7......the RX-8 is a new model.

fintail

That might be the lowest mile 300D left out of that series, as most seem to have been driven to death. They weren't a bad car...one should be preserved somewhere. People get pretty nutty about those diesels.

There was a W110 190D for sale online a couple years back....black with red interior, 1962 I believe...it had like 1000 miles on it. The guy wanted 20 grand for it. That would be cooler...and even less hp...55 I believe. It ended up being pulled off the market and I have to believe it sold, even if it did so for much less than the asking price. It looked so perfect in the pics, it looked new. I bet it went back to Germany.

Mr_Shiftright

300Ds were very good cars and will probably outlast any car on the planet because they are built so well. I was going to say "like a cockroach is to the animal kingdom" but that really didn't come out as the compliment I was intending.

As for "preserving" them, that sounds a bit precious for such a stout and utilitarian car. I'd rather see them running around town myself.

2003tls

Can you think of any re-badged car that was really a hit in America?

I don't know if it was a hit, per se, but rental car fleets where full of Geo Metros in the late '90's. They were rebadged Suzuki Swifts (which were actually much more rare in the U.S.). Speaking about rare, I remember seeing a Suzuki Swift GT once. Imagine, a "GT" version of the Metro!

fintail

For a normal one, I wouldn't preserve it.....but for a very low mileage mint original, it shouldn't be trashed or abused. There's some value in having the best survivor out there, and that car in that overpriced ad is certainly one of the best left.

Here's something obscure. I forget where a pic of a car made into a desk was posted...but here's another. This time, it's a ponton.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2457758150&category=6315

Funny banner from a piece of period sales material

Mr_Shiftright

A 300D doesn't a very good museum piece or show car. It's pretty uninteresting compared to what's out there. Even a fintail is way more fun to look at. A W123 is like the Camry of the 80s.

I don't think I've gotten one compliment....no wait, I don't think anyone has ever NOTICED my 300D since I got it. Bringing it to a car meet would be a real downer---LOL! However, it's great to avoid tickets. It is practically invisible.

RE: Fuel injection--many people don't realize Benz was the first production car in the world with fuel injection, in 1955. Worked very well, too.

fintail

The car in that ad is a 114/115 (I forget how to tell the difference) of course, so it is a little more vintage...but still invisible, yes. From a MB oriented historical perspective, one in that state of preservation is special.

Camry of the 80s...good one. The 123 is that lovely blend of 70s euro-contemporary styling. It did age well, though. MB designs may be conservative for the most part, but many ate timeless.

I love the FI in my fintail, and really don't even want to think of having a carb one. It's dead reliable.

fintail

Here's an oddball I spotted today in an industrial area. At first, nothing in the pic appears special, just some old decomposing metal:



But when you look closer, you see something pretty weird. A Toyota Stout, sold here for a short period and practically unknown today:

wimsey1

I think Alfa had some mechanical FI road cars before WWII, but I don't know if they meet your definition of "production".
A Toyota Scout? Never heard of such a critter. Got any stats on the thing?

Mr_Shiftright

Hmmm...I really dunno.....Now the Messerschmidt 109 fighter was fuel injected, so it's possible there were some pre WWII experiments going on, but Benz put it into "real" production, that is, more than a couple.

There was actually fuel injection wayyyyyy back, maybe around 1905, but we are talking the experimental stage here, and not very successful.

fintail, I don't see your logic but I'll try! Why is something that is not special at all become special when it is in a high state of preservation? I mean, a garden rake is a garden rake no matter how nice it is, right? All you're holding is the world's nicest garden rake. Of course, I may have to contradict myself here by noting that the Oakland Museum does have the world's best old refrigerators in an exhibit of 1930s kitchens.

It's just funny, to think of my 300D in a museum with velvet ropes around it.

fintail

I don't have any stats on the Stout....I know it was sold here c.1967. It has weird faired-in front turn signals, that's why I remember it. It really caught my eye when I drove by that lot this morning, and luckily enough I had the camera in the car.

Something that is usually not special becomes special when preserved when most other examples have been abused and neglected. Like a 1930s fridge. I am not saying a 300D belongs in a museum where people would actually pay and travel to see it. Just in a collection, an automotive archive of sorts, maybe maintained by the manufacturer. I know MB maintains such close ties to its history...but I bet it has an even better 300D somewhere.

ghulet

I'm guessing the former, since 'Scouts' were already being sold by International.

fintail

Yep, it was a 'Stout'

Mr_Shiftright

Checked out a somewhat obscure variation of a Triumph TR4A. This one had the "surrey top", which is basically a targa design with both a hard top panel you can remove and a soft top panel you can replace it with. In addition, you can take the whole thing off and use a regular soft top with bows.

This top gives the TR4A more value. Also it had overdrive installed from a TR6, and new chrome wire wheels---all of these options further enhance value.

TR4 prices, which always lagged behind TR3 and TR6, are finally on the rise. I think the reason is that most of these cars are so clapped out that when you see a nice one, you realize you couldn't build a lousy one for that price. Really nice ones are selling in the $10,000-$17,500 range, with surreys at the top of the range. A #1 resto with Judson supercharger sold for $23,000 recently!! That's got to be a world record for a TR4.

This car was also unusual in that it was a live axle. Apparently, for the TR4A the axle type was an option! How weird. You could get live axle or IRS. Knowing Triumphs, the simpler the better, and I'd opt for the solid axle.

fintail

Here's a 'fixer upper'...I am sure it is very easy to find seats for one of these, and take a look at the price on the windshield

This is interesting in its own way

Looks like a simple engine to work on, not many wires and hoses at all. The description says 2 airbags...I can't see where they'd be. The ad says "This is a British car.. With all American standards... "....that is NOT a good thing to say

This is unusual and cute

I haven't seen one of these in years

Might be one of the better ones of these left...nice pics, dark night in the rain

You'll be the only one on your block

And finally....what I think is a good one. I really like this, nice style, and it looks to be in beautiful condition. I have yet to see one of these in person, although I have known about them for years. A nice fintail counterpart

andys120

on TR-4As (1965-67)and some chose the solid axle for the reason you stated. Others preferred the more stable handling at the limit that was afforded by the non-irs rear or they disliked the pronounced squat under acceleration of the IRS designs. Even in the NY City area with it's many bad roads I'd guess no more than half the TR-4As were bought with the IRS option.

The Surrey top was pretty rare, in fact it was out numbered by various aftermarket supplied removable hardtops.

Fin, that Fiat 2300 is a great example of the trend in to Americanized styling in European sedans during the late 50s and early 60s but then so is your Fintail.

Mr_Shiftright

The Fiat looks promising, the rest of the cars look like bottomless money pits with no upside.

I don't know what the owner of that NSU Prinz thinks he has there, but I hope he lets it go cheap and comes to his senses.

Peugeot V6---uh-uh, no thanks.

Citroen might be fun if it went cheap, like $999 or something.

andre1969

front-end looks a bit like a cross between a Rambler and a '58 Windsor!

fintail

I like that Renault too. I remember when I was about 12 a small used car lot in town had one, and I thought it was cool. They wanted 2 grand for it back then, that was about 1989. My dad had one word to say about it: "deathtrap"...was there a safety issue in those?

If that Fiat was closer to me and maybe a little cheaper, I would be really tempted. The styling is cool and it is as obscure as can be.

Shifty, I thought you'd like a parts-car Iso with a $15000 price on the windshield, or a Fuego.

andys120

had the reputation of a real "chick-mobile", strictly a girl's car back then. Some called it the French Karmann-Ghia as it was essentially a rebodied Dauphine. <takes out crucifix to ward off evil spirits>

fintail

Well, that explains it then

cindyroderick

It was grey-black. Unfortunately in terrible condition, the rear bumper was hanging almost touching the road and one headlight was blind.

The driver was looking like a scared rabbit with dark circles under his eyes and very broken. The car was emitting tons of wonderful fumes, but the front end looked little stylish with that V coming down on you.

andre1969

I got 'em mixed up. It was the Fiat I liked, the one in the last link, that I thought kinda looked like a cross between a Rambler and a '58 Windsor.

Mr_Shiftright

Glad you corrected that. I was about to e-mail you as I was concerned you had passed out on the keyboard.

fintail

Rambler front end and Windsor fins/taillights, right?

That Fiat must be a Farina design...it has a rear end so much like a BMC Farina of the 60s. If I had the garage space, plus the time to care for it along with the fintail and the 126, I would really be thinking of bidding

seminole_kev

But the model is fairly obscure here (at least in the plain states). Looked at a 1967 Jaguar MkII sedan saturday and sunday......and bought it. Always loved the style of the old Mk IIs. When I was younger, a friend's dad had one that he was restoring. First time I saw it (I was about 16) didn't know what it was but loved it.

Well I finally got around to getting one. Going to trailer it up to the house hopefully tuesday or wednesday. (Brake master cylinder leaks and it has been siting for 2 months in storage. E-brake hauls it back in, but I discovered that I can't turn, use the e-brake (on the left side of the driver) and shift at the same time. Just don't have the coordination for that!).

Anyway, if you guys care, here's pretty much what it looks like. (Not the same car pictured, but almost identical to the one I purchased)

http://www.car-nection.com/jagbase/w38.jpg

andre1969

on that little Renault 2300 just looks kinda Chrysler-ish. Here's a '58 Chrysler ad...



I think it's mainly the fine, lattice-type grille with the medallion in the center, and even the little bumper guards that make me see a resemblance.

The car in this ad though, isn't a Windsor. It's a senior model, like a Saratoga or New Yorker, which had the headlights inset in bezels that were completely separate from the grille, where the Windsor's headlights were more connected to the grille, more like a '58 Dodge or Plymouth. I just couldn't find a good front-end shot of a Windsor, though. Here's one from the side...

andys120

You have an example of one of the most beautiful
sedans ever made and one of the first true sport sedans.

I knew a guy who had one in the late 60's. He's since moved to LA and still has the very same car.
It's one for the ages, one of the most copied designs ever built.

Tell us all about it- m/y, transmission, options etc.

andre1969

on your purchase! I used to see one of those Mark II's on a regular basis when I used to deliver pizzas. One of my regular customers had one parked in his driveway, that looked like it hadn't been moved since the Carter administration! Sadly, it wasn't in very good shape.

ajvdh

Known across the pond as the Renault R5? Your basic FWD 2-box econo-mobile. There was an interesting variant that was never offered in the US: The turbo. Not only did Renault strap a huff-und-puffer on the motor, they relocated the entire drivetrain to where the back seat used to be, making it a rear-driver. Since they needed more rubber to transfer power to the pavement, they flared the fenders quite radically.

I was out riding my bike Saturday, and one blew by me. About five minutes later, he came back the other way, giving an aging car-geek like me a double thrill.