I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

fintail

It does have kind of a resemblance to a 90s Fiat Coupe, but rounder.

jrosasmc

I found this gem a few days ago:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330642821604+&view- item=

This has got to be the nicest original Volvo 122 in the country. Even though '68 was the last year for the 120 series this is still a desirable car, I assume? I know you would probably take this car over a stock P1800 of the same year

au1994

More like Harvey Corman.

Yikes! My eyes!!!

Mr_Shiftright

It *is* a very nice car indeed. Probably for that kind of money though, I'd look for a 123GT, which is a 122 with overdrive transmission and a few other small accessories.

I don't think anyone will bid on it at that price. You can buy some pretty nice old cars for $20K, with a lot more sex appeal, style and power. I would say $12K is about all the money here...maybe $14K in a drunken bidding frenzy on television...maybe. I'd buy it for $8K.

fintail

Nice car, 50s style lives into the late 60s, just like with period MB. But what's with those tires?

bryan

Thanks for the pix; the one I saw was from the rear driver side, and that was enough for me. I did take the time to look on the rear of the car to get the name of it. I had no desire to look further. It's just not pleasing to my eyes, no design continuity.

One question though--WHY??? Does it have unique performance/driving characteristics?

I think this car makes the Pontiac Aztek look like a styling success! :shades:

lemko

...gray 1980s Toyota Corolla version of the Chevrolet Nova on Bingham Street near Martins Mill Road. I remember all the hullaballoo about a Japanese car wearing a legendary Chevrolet badge. At least it wasn't nearly the travesty of the Daewoo badged as a Pontiac LeMans!

fintail

Here's a cool image from a mural at the little MB museum in Alabama:



Another celebrity with a fintail. Car is an earlier model, probably 1960-61, probably a 220SE, with tourist delivery plates. Back home in CA, he was probably able to take it to a standalone MB dealer rather than a shared Studebaker facility. Nice wide whites.

uplanderguy

Perhaps a stand-alone dealer, perhaps not, but since 1957 Mercedes-Benz Sales, Inc., of North America was a Studebaker division.

fintail

I know LA had a few MB-only locations at the time (my car was sold through one), and the dealer in Seattle, who still exists, wasn't connected to Stude either. That might have increased the celebrity appeal, fancy new showrooms.

uplanderguy

I've read that there was a guy named Max Hoffman (sp?) who imported Benzes prior to Studebaker, but that one reason Benz decided to go ahead with the Studebaker arrangement was their ready-made dealer organization.

andys120

Max Hoffman, an Austrian refugee was the first importer of Mercedes cars and most of the other European brands that made their way to US shores during the 50s. He was instrumental in the creation of the 300SL, the Porsche Speedster and the BMW 507 and 2002.

fintail

Stude probably was very useful for stitching together a dealer and parts network outside of metropolis sized cities and coastal locations.

uplanderguy

I've mentioned this before, but I have a Studebaker Drivers' Club "Turning Wheels" magazine about Mercedes-Benz Sales, Inc., and in it is a small photo of a warehouse full of Benzes in South Bend, circa '63.

Even my little hometown dealer in our town of 8,800 (1960 census; not a suburb) sold M-B. He told me on the phone just the other night that his Service Manager went to South Bend for M-B school and came back an excellent Benz mechanic. People would bring Benzes from fifteen or twenty miles away for them to be worked on at this tiny Studebaker garage.

My friend's Dad, who founded the dealership in 1926, had a 1959 (he thought) 220S sedan, black with red interior.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, Studebaker acquired North American distribution rights for Mercedes Benz in 1957, and sold them back to Benz in I think about 1964. There was no joint manufacturing of any kind, or parts sharing, just sales, and the rights were only for NA. Studebaker also owned the Canadian distribution rights for VW in those early days, and also sold them back to the Germans.

Max Hoffman was distibutor for all kinds of exotic European machinery. Mercedes was probably his entry level back then. He sold lots of really $$$ iron.

andys120

Max Hoffman was distibutor for all kinds of exotic European machinery. Mercedes was probably his entry level back then. He sold lots of really $$$ iron.

True, he was involved in bringing in Jaguar, Allard and other high dollar marques but he was also the Eastern U.S. distributor for Volkswagen from 1950-53.

uplanderguy

I like the Impala's added length and triple taillights, but despise the rear-quarter "comb" and striped upholstery. This Bel Air sure looks pretty to my eyes, and it's not in a typical bright or pastel color, either:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Bel-Air-150-210-?cmd=ViewItem&_trkparms- =algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D1%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D440994227627607- 7635&_trksid=p5197.m7&item=180759099502

I know the body shell was shared with Pontiac, but I think the Chevy is so much cleaner.

Mr_Shiftright

1958 was a bad year all around but this design is far from the worst.

You don't see too many '58s anymore.

I don't think he'll find a buyer at that price. It's a BelAir and not an Impala, and it's a 283 w/ 3 on the three. And the colors are....not good.

If it were a 348 Impala automatic with 3X2 carbs, it'll be gone already.

I'm thinking $14K is all the money on this one, on a good day.

fintail

That's another good subject - service support for drivers if they were on the road. If someone from far away was driving through IN and had an issue, they would have been relieved to find your local shop.

If you remember that 220S, I assume it was a "round" (ponton) car and not a fintail.

uplanderguy

I do like a '58 Impala in that silvery blue, but I get tired of that orangy-red and bright turquoise. I like the colors on this Bel Air a lot..different.

uplanderguy

Our town was in NW PA, but your point is correct.

I have a picture of Mr. Filer with his 220S. The son said he was very proud of it. It is a rounded body. I have a color photo of a 190 convertible in front of the small showroom too, probably around '58 or '59.

Mr_Shiftright

Pontons were beautifully made cars--the contrast between foreign and domestic cars was much greater than it is now. Many pontons had leather and wood interiors, wool carpeting and excellent fit and finish top to bottom. They were a little weak for American driving conditions but once you got them rolling they were fine on the freeway.

andys120

I saw a pair of Camaros, a '69 SS black vinyl over yellow, didn't catch the engine badge and an orange '67 (no side markers). At first I assumed they were traveling together but the orange one accelerated away and left the other in the dust.

Then I came across a turkey raffle in a parking lot for which there were two police cruisers on hand, one was a standard issue Ford CV but the other was a '55 Chevrolet (210?) done up in period black/white with trhe red bubble gum light.

uplanderguy

My dealer friend said (and maybe jokingly, I don't know) that "SL" stood for 'super light' and that many rusted very quickly, at least in our part of the country, as bad or worse than contemporary Studebakers. He did say his Dad loved his 220S though. He had also said previously that he didn't know if they were truly that more reliable than domestic iron, or that the recommended maintenance was so much-more thorough and thus more expensive.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah, it means "sport light". The little SLs were very strong cars. You could tell because unlike the domestic convertibles, they didn't exhibit chassis flex when going over bumps. On American cars of the 50s and 60s you can watch the windshield dance when you go over railroad tracks, and sometimes your doors would pop open.

I suppose back in the 60s Mercedes rusted out just about like most cars of the time.

Often, a car's propensity to rust has nothing to do with build quality, but rather HOW the car is put together. Some cars have built in "rust traps". I can think of various examples----the back fenders on a Mustang, the rear window on an Alfa Romeo coupe, front frame rails on a Jaguar 3.8, the fender "eyebrows" on a Mercedes 190SL, or an entire Fiat.

the most serious rust issues occurred on VWs and Porsches in the 60s, because of how they were built. If you got rust in the A or B pillars where it met the floorpan, you can pretty much throw those cars away.

fintail

All cars of that era were good rusters, MB not excluded. The reason good fintails and pontons are scarce today isn't just because they are expensive to renovate, but because they rot. Floors, trunks, rockers, and the front fenders are all rust nests. Maybe not more reliable per se either - they need the maintenance and will punish those who neglect it, but I would say more durable if cared for. Build quality was very high and the materials used were generally tough.

andre1969

I don't think the Impala was any longer, was it? IIRC, that was just a styling trick. The passenger cabin was shorter on the Impala, with the C-pillar and rear window located further forward, so you had a correspondingly longer rear deck. The Impala's roofline was probably a bit lower as well.

I know that two-tone beige/brown isn't the most attractive color in the world, but I rather like it. I agree about that typical reddish-orange that you normally see 'em in, but I actually like the turquoise! And that metallic bluish silver was nice, too.

I think the Chevy has cleaner, less fussy trim and details, but I think the Pontiac's greater overall length gives it nicer proportioning. I forget how long a '58 Pontiac is, but they were on a 122" wb for the Chieftain and Bonneville, 124" for the Super Chief and Star Chief. The Chevies were on a 117.5" wb, and I think were around 208" long. I think on the 122" wb models, that extra 4.5" it had on the Chevy went ahead of the firewall, while two additional inches of the 124" models went in back, giving the car a longer deck.

berri

If length doesn't sway you, the interior should. Pontiac is my preference as well. I always thought the non Impala 58's looked cheap with the small twin tail lights.

Mr_Shiftright

An entry level '58 Chevy is trimmed out about the same as a pickup truck. It sold well enough but most people didn't like the styling at all. It's pretty awkward and time hasn't been good to it. If you look at the price guides you'll see a remarkable difference between '57 and '58 values

uplanderguy

Unless it's a Nomad, a On-Fifty two-door sedan in an unusual color, or a Bel Air Sport Coupe in Dusk Pearl, I'd barely cross the street to even look at a '57 Chevy. I'd take the '58 for sale on eBay over most any '57, personally. But then, typically in cars I'm a 'less is more' guy.

Mr_Shiftright

Well sure buy what you like but you'd be a minority opinion for sure. I don't much like the 57s either myself...I like the bubble tops, and the '56 2D.

fintail

Yesterday saw an early - maybe 79-80 - downsized LTD on the highway, and in town today saw a little old lady in a 75-79 Seville sitting about 3" from the steering wheel.

berri

I always though on the outside the 57 was a clean enough design, but unfortunately the late 50's were a very active stylists period and the by 57 the original popular 55-57 Chevy design was already going stale. The insides, paticularly the dash is where I find the 57 less than attractive. As for the 58, the Impala is popular because it became a bit of an enigma of that era thanks to Hollywood. But I have to be honest, the over the top chrome accents (including that peiece of chrome over the rear window that I believe Uplander refers to as a comb) are probably what draw my attention to the 58 Impala, but I still much prefer the Bonneville that year.

I think the 61 GM designs are sometimes over looked. There is a lot of nice stuff there that year.

berri

maybe 79-80 - downsized LTD

If you didn't mind RWD, I thought those intermediates were decent enough cars for their time and built fairly well (again, for the times). The 302 was a bit weak though. I wasn't all that fond of the downsized 79 Crown Vic fullsized car. I thought it was light years behind the Chevy despite having a few more years to develop it.

uplanderguy

I think the 61 GM designs are sometimes over looked.

Agreed! I like '61 Impala Sport Coupes a lot, even in subdued colors. I like the Corvette-type steering wheel. One small thing I hate about the '61, and I'm being uptight, I know, is how the radio pushbuttons spell "Chevy". I think that's cheesy! An Impala is a "Chevrolet"! A van or a "Chevy II" is a "Chevy"! I'd have to find one without pushbuttons!

I like '62 Bel Air Sport Coupes, too, and it wouldn't even have to be a 409! You hardly ever see them it seems.

The '61 big Pontiac coupes are handsome too. I like the three round taillights of the Bonneville but like the proportions of the slightly-shorter Catalina and Ventura better.

berri

The '61 big Pontiac coupes are handsome too. I like the three round taillights of the Bonneville but like the proportions of the slightly-shorter Catalina and Ventura better.

We may not agree on the 58 Impala, but we are totally in synch on the 61 Pontiac. It's my favorite 61 GM and I think your description would have been the perfect model.

Mr_Shiftright

the concept of "concave fins" has never worked well on any car--it is simply unattractive on the '58 Chev, on the Mercury, on the Plymouth (flat fins) , you name it.

lemko

...black BMW CS30 in a Lowe's parking lot today. The car appeared to be in really nice shape. I'm not sure what year, but I'd assume early 1970s or earlier.

hpmctorque

I certainly agree with you about the '61 Plymouth, and to a lesser extent Mercury. Not so much about the '58 Impala and Bonneville. However, looking at it from the standpoint of the designers, during a period when they were required to make significant changes each model year or two, or even dramatic changes, what can one expect? It would be totally unreasonable to expect each model to be an improvement over the preceding one. The outcome, from a stylistic point of view, was predictable. In terms of marketing, this was an era when change for the sake of change moved the metal.

The '61 Plymouth is an example of trying way too hard, and missing badly. With time - a lot of time, in some cases - bad misses can look interesting, and even become a collectible. Example: The Edsel and the Pacer.

andys120

I'd assume early 1970s or earlier.

The E9 BMW coupe was introduced in 1968 as the 2800CS, which looked the same as the later 3.0CS, introduced in 1971 and discontinued after 1975 but I don't think the US got any after '73.

Mr_Shiftright

True enough...seems like the automakers were dealing with "fins" any way they could. Cadillac makes 'em bigger and bigger, Ford kind of rounds them off, Chevy inverts them one year, then makes them horizontal the next. About the only thing they didn't do was stick them straight up! Oh, wait, there was the Superbird--LOL!

andre1969

I think the '61 Plymouth could have worked, if some of the details had been hammered out a bit better. The flat, fin-less upper body and scalloped sides really called for a clean design overall, but the over-exaggerated front-end and tacked-on taillights really ruined it.

Its twin, the '61 Dodge Dart, wasn't a bad looking car, although the reverse-slant fins were a bit odd

Mr_Shiftright

It's hard to judge styling when it's happening--it has to stand the test of time. This is why I'm always emphasizing the "value" of older cars, because in reality this value reflects the voting results of millions of people over time.

One can always argue that beauty is subjective, but the marketplace is, in my opinion, a powerful validator of aesthetics as much as it is of rarity, horsepower, etc.

I find that the general public is a very good judge of what is good styling---not necessarily when they BUY the car, but over time I mean---bad styling goes out of fashion quickly enough.

Some cars are a black dress with pearls, and some cars end up being bell-bottoms.

bhill2

I think the '61 Plymouth could have worked, if some of the details had been hammered out a bit better.

The only way the '61 Plymouth could have worked is if the front end had been hammered until it was unrecognizable.

uplanderguy

I think there's no accounting for taste. That's why "Disco Duck" was a Number One record and "American Pie" was a Number One movie. Who wants to be a sheeple? Remember when '59 Caddy convertibles were bringing $100K? Ick!

fintail

Saw an odd one today - 90s Lexus SC without gold trim. I think they made about 7 so equipped.

tjc78

I am so happy that trend has gone away. Most 92-95 Camrys have them too.

fintail

I remember quite a few 94+ Accords had it too, but Lexus was the key criminal there along with highline Camrys. A friend of mine's mother had a loaded 96 Civic with gold trim, looked ridiculous. To be fair, a few others have gone gold too - Caddy did it for eons, it was a minor dealer installed fad on MB around 1990 as well, esp on a white S or E class. But nothing close to Lexus - it seems nearly all older ES, SC, and even many LS were made tasteless.

texases

Lots of Chrysler T&Cs around that time, too.

Too bad about the 300/400 SCs, they're the best looking Lexus, to me.

berri

along with highline Camrys

I had a Camry back in the 90's (No, I didn't go "gold"!). That gold was actually a dealer pack around here and could be had on any model including a stripper for around $500. Yes, some people actually were shelling out that kind of mullah back then for gold colored plastic and they weren't ghetto residents either. No accounting for taste or financial sense!

It's funny how people get into color and perceived status. Like charge cards. First it was attaining gold, then silver, then black and now saphire blue is apparently the card to carry. What a bunch of nonsense!