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I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Thanks...I thought I wasn't imagining things!

    BTW, soon after my Intrepid got totaled, one car I looked at briefly was a dark green Olds 88 at a local used car lot. I was actually going up there to look at a 1991 Caprice they had, but then spotted the 88 and went over and looked at it. Unfortunately, it looked like it had been owned by a construction worker. Interior looked like it had been caked with mud and dirt, but they had tried to clean it out the best they could.

    The Caprice actually had the same look about it on the interior.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I didn't like that era of 98, partly because of the skirted look on the rear wheels, but also at certain angles, the roof line looks too small for the car and just gives it a diminutive look. Those 98s were every bit as big as a Park Avenue, but somehow the Park Ave just had a more substantial look to it.

    But oddly, now when I see one of those '91-96 Park Avenues (they're still somewhat common around here), they seem pretty small-ish to me, as well. Even though the 1997-05 Park Ave is about the same size in most dimensions, I guess the later style just fills out more, whereas the previous was much more tapered.

    Over the years though, my opinion of those '91-96 98s has softened. I wouldn't turn away a nice one today, if I needed a car.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    "A Neoclassic To end all Neoclassics!!!"

    I hope that's a promise
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited April 2013
    I had mixed feelings about the styling of the '91-?? generation 98. A relative bought a new one and it rode better than my '85 98 Brougham. It also felt more solid and luxurious.

    The Achieva, introduced the following year ('92), looked like a downsized 98 to me. I rented Achievas a couple of times, and they seemed competent in every respect.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    The Achieva, introduced the following year ('92), looked like a downsized 98 to me. I rented Achievas a couple of times, and they seemed competent in every respect.

    YES!! I think that's what the problem was! The Acheiva and 98 bore a strong resemblance to each other, but not in a way that was favorable to the 98. In contrast, a Skylark and Park Ave looked NOTHING alike by that time.

    I think I liked the Achieva the best out of its brood. The Grand Am was really embarking on that overdone Ribs & Wings motif, and the interiors were becoming horrible. And the Skylark was trying to combine aero-modern and '39 Buick, with all sorts of odd lumps and shapes. But the Achieva didn't look too bad. I thought the Achieva coupe was downright attractive.
  • bigwilljrbigwilljr Member Posts: 1
    I always wanted to get an Aurora, they had a styling that was unique. So many other cars on the road look so similar, it's irritating sometimes. Also, I've always been a big Oldsmobile fan. Would have been nice.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They yanked the balance shafts out of the Quad 4 to save three pennies per unit or so and the resulting roughness ruined that car's rep before it ever had a chance. I also liked the way they looked.

    I saw an interview with Csaba Csere talking about that mistake, he rants and rants about it.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited April 2013
    The Achieva coupe was indeed attractive. It reminded me of the LeBaron coupe, in the sense that the coupe was distinct from the sedan, and much more attractively styled. I recall you saying that you once owned a LeBaron turbo coupe.

    I thought the dashboard design of the '92 Skylark was creative and interesting, in a positive way. Buick later (maybe in '95 or so) redesigned the dash to look more conventional. The Skylark of that generation was another example of where the coupe looked better and less frumpy than the sedan.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I recall you saying that you once owned a LeBaron turbo coupe.

    Yep, it was sort of a champagne/driftwood color, with a light brown interior. Very nice looking car...about as sexy as a K-car could get! The interior was actually pretty nice, too. The only area where I thought they cheaped out was that if you got power windows, they put the switches on the console rather than the door panel. And, to cover up the spot where the window cranks would have been, they simply stuck in a little emblem with the Chrysler Pentastar on it!

    My uncle bought the car used (it was a 1988) in April of 1990. He went up to the local Pontiac/Dodge dealer (you might know them...Bob Banning in New Carrollton) because he wanted to look at the Grand Ams. Well, he hated the cheap, tacky, plastickyness of the Grand Am, but then he saw the LeBaron on their used car lot, and bought it.

    He sold it to me when I was married, and I let the wife drive it. Back then, we only had my '68 Dart, '67 Catalina convertible, a '69 Bonneville that was hard to start, and the DeSoto. So, we needed something newer and more manageable for the wife to drive.

    I let her have the LeBaron in the divorce. I think it had about 90,000 miles on it when we split, and had been fairly reliable up to that point. But by around 118,000 miles, it was shot. Bad head gasket, bad turbo, slow leak in one tire, bad a/c, broken antenna, leak in the transmission, and so on. I bought it off her for 90 bucks in early 1998, and she bought two tickets to go see "Faith No More" at the 9:30 club in DC (she had an infatuation with their lead singer). I sold it off for parts. It still had a lot of nice interior pieces, nice wheels, body panels, etc. I pulled out the stereo, thinking it would fit in the 1979 Newport I had by that time, but no such luck.

    I still have that radio packed away, somewhere.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "'I saw a Fisker Karma being driven Saturday, as it was pulling out of a service station. That was the first time I'd seem one in operation. It may be the last time too, since the future hardly looks promising for that company. Strange that it was coming from a gas station, since the power train is similar in concept to the Volt's. Striking looking car, though. "

    I was under the impression that the Fisker was a pure electric car, unlike the Volt that has a gas engine backup.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    No, the Fisker is laid out just like the Volt. It's the Tesla that's 100% EV.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Yeah, I know Bob Banning; bought my '86 Grand Am from them.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,283
    I bought a 2002 Intrigue in 2003. I always liked Oldsmobiles and this was the last shot to get one close to new. It was actually a decent car but got troublesome near the end. The engine was great in terms of performance although mine always had a smell of coolant but no visible leak. It also seemed to like to eat front control arm bushings for some reason. Aside from that there weren't many problems with it. The interior had nary a speck of brightwork in it, unlike today's cars. I really liked the low cowl and the amount of window area, which made the interior seem airy.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • toomanyfumestoomanyfumes Member Posts: 1,019
    That dealer in Milwaukee that someone linked to with the "neoclassic Caddy" also has a Used Fisker for sale for $76000. Harry Kaufman is the dealer and he has all sorts of exotic and unusual stuff.
    2012 Mustang Premium, 2013 Lincoln MKX Elite, 2007 Mitsubishi Outlander.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    I was supposed to leave for Carlisle tonight, and spend the day there tomorrow, but it's supposed to be rainy there tomorrow; plus, a mutual friend's father passed away over the weekend and calling hours were today in NW PA, so I went. I was really in the mood for a meet too. Lemko and andre, let me know what you see that's neat or out-of-the-ordinary there later in the week.

    This year I'll also miss the annual May South Bend Studebaker Swap Meet, which this year is also a Studebaker Drivers' Club zone meet and there's a speaker at the Museum talking about the Avanti as well as tours of the old Studebaker Body Building in town, one of the few original factory buildings still there and supposedly pretty unchanged inside. Sigh--I have to work in SE PA that week. The body building tour was supposed to happen last year at the International Meet and my hometown former dealer friend really wanted to see it but it got cancelled at the last minute. Sigh (again).
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    LeBaron Turbo Coupe--handsome '80's Mopar I had completely forgotten about.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I thought the LeBaron coupe looked just about perfect. Until around 1993, or whenever it was that they got rid of the hidden headlights and gave it the composites.

    Its trip computer would lie to you though. Would tell you 400 miles to empty right as you ran out of gas. And yes, unfortunately, I know that from experience. :blush: Fortunately, it was about a quarter mile from my condo...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Saw an earlier Tempo coupe on the road today, those are thin on the ground anymore. Also saw a neglected 94-95 CL600 sitting at the little lot where I went to look at a 1976 300D - how the mighty have fallen.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    I thought the LeBaron coupe looked just about perfect.

    At the time, I thought luxury/personal coupes should be bigger, but that said, I don't think there was a bad line on the car. For some reason, I remember them in a two-tone light/dark 'briar' brown color, not unlike what you always saw '83 and '84 Rivieras in. I like that combo, myself.

    The later ones you mention, for some reason I remember in a bright aqua color. The first ones were more handsome IMHO.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...really nice light blue metallic 1969 Chevrolet Caprice two-door hardtop with dark blue vinyl top and Ralleye wheels on the SE corner of Tyson and Rising Sun in NE Philly.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    At the time, I thought luxury/personal coupes should be bigger, but that said, I don't think there was a bad line on the car.

    Yeah, a personal luxury coupe *should* be bigger, but I thought they pulled it off quite handsomely. It's also a car with a lot of overhang...they're about 185" long, on a short 100.3" wheelbase, but I thought they still looked well-proportioned.

    In comparison, something like an '88 T-bird/Cougar was probably around 198" long, on a 104.4" wheelbase. I think GM's Monte Carlo/Grand Prix/Cutlass/Regal were around 200-202" long, on a 108.1" wb.

    And the downsized '86-89 Olds Toronado was only 187.5" long, but on a longer 108.0" wb.

    I'll have to see if I can dig up some old pics of my LeBaron and scan them in. I do remember taking some pics, just before the tow truck came and took it away. And I'm sure it showed up in some of my honeymoon pics, as we drove it out to Washington State.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    Man, I didn't know the wheelbase was only 100"! I seem to remember 'Vette wheelbases being 98.2 inches for a lot of years.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited April 2013
    A few oddities today - 90s Viper coupe, MB C43 AMG, red whale tail Porsche Targa - and the real oddity, an early 70s Celica notchback hardtop - the "Japanese Mustang" style. It appeared to be in extremely nice condition and was running like new.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Coupe, paint was black but had faded to a flat gray. Still running like a champ, though.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    this morning, I saw an '86 Somerset Regal coupe in the parking lot at another building where I had to attend a meeting. It was gray, and didn't look too bad for the most part, except for some serious looking rust in the passenger side lower rear quarter panel.

    One thing that really struck me, is how tiny these cars look today. At around 180" long on a 103.4" wb, you wouldn't think they'd be *that* small. But, cars back then were a lot narrower and lower than today. It was parked next to a current-generation Camry, and the Camry, not really a big car itself, looked positively monstrous in comparison.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Funny, I saw a Somerset just several days ago, and saw it again (blue 2 door, has to be the same car) yesterday. How many of those can still be on the road?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    A guy I worked with many years ago bought one of those Somerset Regals new. Thought the name Somerset was kind of a stupid name for a car. Makes me think of "somersault" or Samoset the first person who met the Pilgrims when they landed. Wasn't there a soap opera named Somerset?
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    "This black and white patrol car has an overhead valve V8 engine. It develops 325 horsepower at 4800 RPM's. It accelerates from 0 to 60 in seven seconds; it has a top speed of 120 miles an hour..."

    Had to check online to figure out which car Malloy was talking about. Except for the quoted hp, that performance would be like a Camry today I guess.
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I thought the name "Somerset" was kinda dumb as well. But, believe it or not, there was a Somerset Regal for a few years before the N-body even came out! Or, properly, it was probably "Regal Somerset". Back when I used to deliver pizzas, I used to see an early 80's Regal in the neighborhood, and it had a "Somerset" badge on it. I think it sort of slotted into the same category as the 1978=84 Olds Cutlass Calais...nice wheels, bucket seats, console shift, and some badges, but no performance upgrades.

    Over at Oldsmobile, once the N-body came out and they started using the Calais name on it, I think they dusted off the "Salon" name, to replace it in the Cutlass Supreme lineup. I don't think Pontiac had a model that directly matched up, although they the Grand Prix did have an "LE" trim level slotted between the base and Brougham. However, I think you had to pa extra for bucket seats/console, sporty wheels, etc.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited April 2013
    If this was Adam-12, they had 1967-69 Plymouth Belvederes the first couple seasons, 1971 Plymouth Satellites the third season, and 1972 AMC Matadors for the remaining seasons.

    http://adam12code3.com/adam12code3_allcars_580_338.jpg
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    325 hp sounds like a '68 or '69 Satellite with a 383-4bbl. I think the 440's had 350, more if you went for the really hot versions. Consumer Reports tested a '68 or '69 Charger with a 440 and 3.23:1 axle, and got 0-60 in around 7 seconds. C&D or MT, being more aggressive, would've gotten a better time.

    As for a modern Camry, the 3.5 V-6 puts out 268 hp net. That's probably about 350-360 gross!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Calais was actually the entry-level Cadillac from 1965-1976.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    But, believe it or not, there was a Somerset Regal for a few years before the N-body even came out! Or, properly, it was probably "Regal Somerset".

    For some reason, I always remember these cars being (IMHO) the odd combination of beige and navy blue. Do you remember this color scheme on them?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,597
    "325 hp sounds like a '68 or '69 Satellite with a 383-4bbl."

    It could also be the Matador. The 401 in that car is in my book as 330 @5000 rpm. That's pretty close.

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • toomanyfumestoomanyfumes Member Posts: 1,019
    I remember my parents looking at cars around 1980 or so an they picked up a brochure from the Buick dealer. It had a Somerset Regal in it that was....beige and navy blue. I also remember that brochure touting Buick's V6 engine, they said it moved the car with "aplomb", which gave my Dad and I a good laugh, as my Uncle had a '76 Regal with the 3.8 V6, and he was more likely to refer to it as a "turd."
    2012 Mustang Premium, 2013 Lincoln MKX Elite, 2007 Mitsubishi Outlander.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    No need for MeTV for Mopar classic police cars, just go to the Seattle Police Dept. Museum!
    http://www.seametropolicemuseum.org/cars.html
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,283
    This is like going back in time to a Chrysler dealer in the 1980s:

    http://classicchryslercars.com/

    The prices on most everything are nothing short of ridiculous, but it would be a cool place to visit to just stroll around and pretend you are on a used car lot from 25 or 30 years ago.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    edited April 2013
    "I remember my parents looking at cars around 1980 or so an they picked up a brochure from the Buick dealer. It had a Somerset Regal in it that was....beige and navy blue. I also remember that brochure touting Buick's V6 engine, they said it moved the car with "aplomb", which gave my Dad and I a good laugh, as my Uncle had a '76 Regal with the 3.8 V6, and he was more likely to refer to it as a "turd.""

    Although, an '80 Regal was several hundred pounds lighter than a '76.

    I'll say this, my sister and her husband bought a new '75 Buick Century Special. I remember that thing having the roughest idle of any car that size I'd ever experienced, and the six made noises that shouldn't have come out of a car as pretty as a '75 Buick Century coupe. I also remember the grille was plain gray plastic--no bright surround, no emblems on it, etc. I thought it seemed really cheap, although the interior was a nice-quality vinyl with a center armrest in front.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    At a body shop a Gold Chevelle with Black stripes. front fenders and hood dark primer.
    Just after that, a Dark Green built up Nova that looked really nice.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I've seen the Satellite before, even has period radio equipment. I think they also have an Aspen.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    By 1980, your typical GM intermediate with a Buick 231 V-6 was probably good for 0-60 in around 15 seconds. For something like a '75-76 Regal or Century, my guess would be a good 22 seconds or more. CR tested a '77 Cutlass sedan with the Olds 260 V-8, and got 0-60 in something like 21.6 seconds. I'd imagine the 231 would have to be every bit as bad. Similar hp, but less torque. However, it would also be lighter than the V-8, so that might help offset the less torque part of the equation.

    Oh, MT tested a 1981 Grand Prix with the Pontiac 265, and got 0-60 in 14.9 seconds. That was with 120 hp. So again, I'd think the Buick 231, with 110 hp, less torque, but less weight as well, would be similar.

    I had an '82 Cutlass Supreme for about a year, 1993-94. From a stop, it was pretty gutless. But, if you were loafing along around 40-45 mph and suddenly needed to punch it, it took off quicker than you might expect. And, it was an excellent highway cruiser. Much better than my old '80 Malibu, which had a 229 V-6 and 115 hp. However, I've heard the Chevy 229 only had around 170-175 ft-lb of torque, compared to 190 for the 231-2bbl.

    And, as for that early 80's RWD Regal Somerset, the main color I remember was a beige or gold, but now that you mention it, I seem to recall blue being associated with it. So maybe it had beige sides and a blue roof/hood/trunk?

    My 1985 Consumer Guide has a Regal with the 231-2bbl in it. They don't list a 0-60 time, but in the text it says that 0-60 comes up in "about 13 seconds" Even though it had the same 110 hp as a 1980 Regal, I'm convinced that GM, and the auto industry in general, was finally getting their engine management and emissions controls more or less right, and that was improving the driveability of the cars. So, even if the hp/torque and gear ratio specs stayed the same, the cars simply made better use of the power. They probably had less hesitation, stalling, bucking, etc, and that helped them get up to speed better.

    To use one example, I remember years ago, Fintail scanning in some old Consumer Guide tests from 1981. One of them was a Bonneville with an Olds 307 and the 4-speed automatic. 0-60 was around 14.1 seconds. Yet by 1985, CG tested a Delta 88 with the same setup, and got a more reasonable 12.0 seconds.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I wish I hadn't looked at that site...I find myself really digging the '81 New Yorker 5th Ave. Sure, $11,995 is ridiculous for it. But it looks really nice, with only 15,000 miles on it. And having a sunroof!

    I always thought it was interesting that Chrysler started pouring money into the R-body for 1981, only to dump it half-way through the model year. Not huge improvements, but in the details. For instance, the '81 5th Ave has MUCh nicer, if pimpier, seats than the '79-80. However, all they did was swap them. Those '81 5th Ave seats were what was the leather option in the 1979-80 regular New Yorker, while what had been the 5th Ave seats for '79-80 became the leather option in the regular NY'er for '81.

    But oddly, the standard cloth seats on the base '79-80 New Yorker are the same pattern as the leather in the 5th Ave.

    Also for 1981, they switched the trunk from gas struts to more conventional torsion bar/gooseneck hinges. They also improved the pull handles on the door. On the two '79's I have, I try to grab the armrest itself to pull the door shut. Or the window sill if the window is down. the pull handles are that flimsy. But in '81, they beefed them up, considerably.

    I wonder what a reasonable price would be for that '81? This might be the beer talking, but if I could get it for around $6-7K, I'd be seriously tempted!

    I also like the fact that in '81, they gave you a few color choices for the 5th Ave. "Designer Creme" over "Designer Beige" with a creme interior gets old after awhile.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    One of the things I like about older Chrysler's is that even going back into the 50's they often had sort of unique dashboards and interiors. Some of those 60's early plastic knobs could get a bit discolored, but the dash and interiors were often kind of fun to look at. Over at GM they could vary from product line and year to the next. Some great, some not so much. Ford dash and interiors seemed to often be the plain Jane's though, although I'm sure that perspective is different for different individuals. Call me an old fart, but I think the old knobs and buttons are actually much more functional than all these current day electronic whizmo's and screens. Technology for the sake of technology rather than function and efficiency (and wait until you get a repair bill on a lot of these new ones!).
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Repair? What's that? Mechanics don't repair things any more; they diagnose and replace.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Driving on K street in Georgetown, and what stood out was not its age but its condition. This was clean, and little-old-lady original. A true survivor.

    Even sounded quiet.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Those maybe all meandered out west - I still see them now and again. Saw an SE-i model just the other day, sitting on a little BHPH lot. I bet they'd rust fiercely in your area.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Saw an SE-i model just the other day, sitting on a little BHPH lot. I bet they'd rust fiercely in your area.

    They did. In fact, even to this day, even though cars in general are rustproofed much better, I'd say that you're more likely to see rust on a ~10-15 year old Honda (or any Japanese car) than most domestics. But again, seeing rust on ANYTHING around that timeframe is still pretty rare these days.

    My uncle's 2003 Corolla has a little rust coming out on the passenger side, just ahead of the rear wheel opening. I think it's partly his own fault though. He parks it on the grass in front of the house, right under a big Maple tree, so it spends a lot of time in the dampness.

    I saw an odd sight yesterday...a BMW 5-series that was looking pretty rusty in the lower regions (rocker panels, quarters, around the rear wheel opening) and missing the fuel filler cap. However, this was also the 1988-96 (or '89-95 in the US, I guess) generation, so it was no spring chicken, to begin with!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That Accord probably didn't get galvanized steel, so that is a bit of a miracle.

    I think the coating became common in the early 90s or so. I remember seeing 2 years old Hyundai Excels with rust in the pre-galvanized days.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited April 2013
    I see rust on 94-97 Accords even out here in this mild climate, along with occasional bad paint on 98-02 models. The nice looking 90-93s can really get crusty, too.

    That BMW doesn't surprise me, especially as you mention, it is old. Some German cars of that era can get rusty. One of the rustiest modern cars I have seen was a 1990 W126 300SEL - bubbles and problems everywhere - all rockers and fenders and even around the sunroof. But to be fair, it was from eastern Canada. That 1976 model I looked at a few days ago had a lot less rust, none of it structural. I am lucky in that my fintail barely has any - and those cars can rust. I have just a few bubbles that I am not tempted yet to fix.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Two other recent rustouts I remember seeing that shocked me were a 1997-05 Buick Century that had some serious rot-through on the rocker panel under the doors, and a 1995-99 Maxima that had a quarter panel that was pretty rusty. I can't remember if it was rusted all the way through though, but it was still pretty bad.

    When I was out in Ohio one year to do my annual amusement park trip (either 2010 or 2011, because in 2012 we went to Canada's Wonderland), I remember seeing a black Park Ave, same vintage as mine, that was so rusty that you'd think it was built with the same attention to rustproofing as a '57 Plymouth, '71 Vega, or '76 Volare!
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