I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

lemko

...primer black 1958 Chevrolet Bel Air two-door hardtop with Cragar wheels near Summerdale and Oxford Avenue in the Oxford Circle neighborhood of Philadelphia. Looks like a project car in progress or a rat rod.

uplanderguy

I like the Impala's length and six taillights, but in other ways, I like the '58 Bel Air hardtop even better--more restrained trim IMHO.

uplanderguy

I've already made it clear to the family that I own the 'big' TV that time.

I saw a small clip already and there are supposedly people from every state there and also South Africa.

I think it would be fun to be there. That town isn't knowing what hit it! Like Woodstock.

fintail

It'll be interesting to see what they bring, seeing as many of the no-miles cars are still projects needing a lot of restoration. The effort in keeping the cars preserved would have paid off tenfold to the original keeper.

I think I had my eyes on a virtually no miles ~58 Cameo.

uplanderguy

While waiting outside Best Buy the other evening, I saw a late-model Town Car that looked "normal", but I also saw one that seemed 'stretched' a bit. The "B" pillar was wider than normal, and the rear doors looked a bit longer than normal.

What did I see?

fintail

I am not sure, but the B-pillar description kind of reminds me of an 80s Matchbox Town Car:



There was a late TC "Ultimate" variant with a slightly longer rear door - just what livery service asked for, no doubt:

uplanderguy

What I saw was the last-generation Town Car. The shiny-black "B" pillar actually had a section between the front and rear doors...maybe two or three inches I'm guessing, although the door openings, front and rear met (no space between them).

andre1969

I think Lincoln changed up the way they did the stretch on that Town Car after a couple years. IIRC, when it first came out, it was a 6-inch stretch. The exposed, upper part of the B-pillar was thicker, but then the rear door was lengthened, to fill the gap below the B-pillar. The windows and window frames were the same as the regular Town Car, though.

In later years, I believe the B-pillar was a normal size, but the whole door, window and all, was stretched out.

There was a long wheelbase Crown Vic offered for a few years, as well around that timeframe, designed mainly for taxi service. I don't think there was ever a long wheelbase Grand Marquis, though.

uplanderguy

Thanks; I had never heard of that being done. Interesting!

uplanderguy

Did anybody watch the History Channel on the Lambrecht auction? I was sucked in, sentimental fool that I am about growing up 'Chevy' and the small-town thing that always drags me in.

Sheesh, the one commentator actually asked the other if the Corvair was mid-engined. Hard to believe.

$140K for that Cameo Carrier; $80K for a '78 Corvette Indy Pace Car replica, $97K for a '63 Impala Sport Coupe, $80K for a '58 Apache pickup, are some of the prices I remember for 'no mileage' cars.

An historic day in little Pierce, Nebraska, for certain.

When the show ended, about half the cars were sold and the take was over $1.8 million. They did put the 'best' cars up front, though.

fintail

I missed it - the first time in a good 5 years that there's been a power outage in my neighborhood was yesterday evening. I hope they re-run it. I went out and saw "Rush", which is pretty good.

Sounds like the auction company served booze during the proceedings, and a bunch of over-monied folks got into ego wars. Those bids sound too high for 100 point cars - no miles or not. I'd rather have a pristine restored car than something with no miles, but weathered.

Mr_Shiftright

crazy, silly money. You can buy a frame-off Cameo for $80000 LESS than what they paid. There should be money police to arrest people who do this kind of thing

uplanderguy

The Cameo was, for the most part, well-stored over the years, even though its roof was dented from something that had fallen on it. The winning bidder said he'd repair that but leave the rest of the vehicle as-is. I guess the underneath was amazing. 1.3 miles. As they say, "they're only original once".

Supposedly, if you page down, here's a Cameo that sold for only $39K at a fairly recent auction. Looks nice to me. I seem to remember them usually in white; nice to see the different colors but generally I'm not a fan of that era Chevy truck...too tall and 'lumpy' IMHO, but that Cameo bed does look nice I think:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?75379-58-Cameo-at-Lambrech- - t-140-000

The TV hosts on the History Channel, one in particular, seemed like doofuses to me. I guess they host the U.S. version of "Top Gear". My wife knows Corvairs are rear-engined, but this dude did not? Come on!

At the beginning, they had some locals walking through the cars. Ray Lambrecht did not sell trade-ins. One guy said, "there are two of my trade-ins; there's my Dad's '59 Chevy he traded in; and there's my grandfather's Studebaker". Unbelievable. One guy who was in obviously frail health, bought his old Chevy back (can't recall what it was). It was actually somewhat touching to me. The auction was all about memories. It is an amazing story, never to be duplicated.

uplanderguy

Fintail, I know you're not really a Chevy guy, but if they run it again I think you'd enjoy it. I called my F-I-L in FL to tell him about it, although he's not much of a car guy--I had mentioned the story to him previously. He told me after 45 mins. he turned it off because he found the hosts annoying. The auction wasn't really covered until about 45 mins. in--they had some locals talking about the guy early on and the hosts drooling over how many cars each wanted; a little annoying. After that, it picked up with the auction results, and the owner's daughter made an appearance and was interviewed.

fintail

I'll keep an eye out, for sure. I think the story is pretty cool, even if I cringe at how the cars were stored.

I'm amused that the Cameo I spotted in the early TV hype for the auction brought the best bid. I like Cameos - I don't care for modern fancy pickups, but old fancy pickups like a Cameo or Dodge Sweptside are cool.

uplanderguy

How about this...$10K for a 'new' '77 Vega hatchback. It was a cheapo version with the ultimate cheapy seats and door panels.

The guy who bought it said 'I had one back then' and when ribbed about what he paid said, "I know what I'm getting". We'll see!

kyfdx

$10K for a Vega hatchback is a lot better deal than the guy that paid $80K for a '78 Corvette Pace Car replica....

uplanderguy

Yeah, probably. I'll admit that I wanted a Vega back then...a wagon, but never owned one. My sister had a dayglo orange '76 wagon though.

fintail

I'd rather pay 10K for a 4K car than 80K for a 20K car, for sure.

berri

I've gotta wonder whether buying a very old, never driven car is really all that great of a deal. Rust, probably bad seals everywhere, etc.

robr2

Saw it today north of Boston. Nice dark red color and looked like Roger Penske was driving it.

Also saw a late model XC70 painted matte orange and matte black.

fintail

I think the Lambrecht cars are all about the story, which may or may not be worth a cent in 25 years. I wouldn't pay more a car with 1 mile on it, unless I had a personal museum for display. Especially not one stored outside or in a leaky barn for 50 years.

kyfdx

" late model XC70 painted matte orange and matte black "

Saw a bunch of orange/black paint jobs, today.... All Bengals fans, I think... lol

fintail

Saw a late 70s 280Z and a TR6 out in the rain this morning - gutsy people, as I was under the impression both pretty much dissolve when wet.

uplanderguy

Funny post on a Hemmings blog about the Lambrecht auction:

"I cannot wait to read the ads in a few years.

Chevrolet 1957 210 4 door Sedan. From the Lambrecht Collection. Paid $100,000. I have DVD from History Channel of me buying the car. Restoration costs in excess of $200,000. Too much to list so here goes. All new sheet metal, new floors, new chassis, new body, new crate LS6, New turbo 350 trans. Boyd Wheels, New C.A.R.S. interior, New paint, New Wiring. ALL ORIGINAL! 4 ACTUAL miles. Odometer completely restored. Selling due to divorce. Asking $12,000 obo Call Joe 555-555-5555."

fintail

Ha! Nice sense of humor, and I agree with it.

The "all original - new paint, interior, crate 350, air suspension, AC" etc crowd annoys me.

I suspect the Lambrecht provenance will be but a blip in 25 years. with little value added.

omarman

A lot of that dust, grime and bat guano could have been professionally applied using a "Box O' Barn Fresh" smutch kit and meticulous airbrush spray splatter technique. But I guess if you want $80K for an original '78 Corvette then it takes great skill and expense to get there.

berri

I take it you're talking rust on the Datsun and Lucas electronics on the Triumph, although I think they may have had some tinworm issues too.

andys120

they may have had some tinworm issues too.

That's putting it mildly. I owned a '66 TR-4A and a buddy owned a '70 240Z. It took less than 5 years for them to turn into rust buckets.

fintail

Rust on both ...I didn't even think of Lucas bits. Datsuns and anything BL didn't seem to age well unless kept dry.

fintail

Last night spotted a cream color 76-77 Grand Prix with a big bug deflector, a decent enough 87+ Celebrity wagon, a MB W123 diesel in too low of a gear that sounded like a truck, and a MB W124 and W140 sitting beside each other at a light.

texases

Another mid-70s Pontiac: saw a '75ish Grand Am on the way home. I think it was a Grand Am, had the louvers in the rear side windows. But I don't remember it having the 'beak' on front, more of a Tempest look. My guess is the 'beak' front end was replaced after an accident, and the Tempest part was the only available replacement. Seems more likely than adding louvers to the rear side windows on a Tempest.

Andre, your thoughts?

andre1969

There were several models of the LeMans that offered those louvered windows in the 1973-77 timeframe. I believe they were standard on the 1973-75 Grand Am. However, they were an option on the LeMans sport coupe, and possibly the base LeMans, as well, from 1973-77. The 1977.5 Can Am also had the louvered windows. And, from 1973-75, and again in 1977, there was a LeMans GT that offered them...dunno if they were standard, though.

What color was this car? IIRC, the Grand Am was only offered in a few colors, such as black, white, and burgundy. The Can Am only came in white, with orange graphics.

Oh, almost forgot...there was the 1973 GTO, which also would have offered those louvered windows. But again, I don't know if they were standard or not.

And, having a front clip replaced is definitely a possibility. My '76 Grand LeMans has a '77 grille. Originally I thought that perhaps one of the inserts just got broken out and someone replaced them both with whatever they could find. But then I found out that, even though they look the same, the '76 Grand LeMans grille inserts attach differently than the base LeMans, or any of the '77 LeMans models. So apparently my whole header panel was replaced at one time. Possibly more than just that, as I believe the Grand LeMans was supposed to have a chrome strip down the hood and a stand up hood ornament, and mine lacks them both.

About 8 years ago, in Florida, I saw a black '76-77 Grand LeMans in a parking lot, from the rear. Went up to look at it, and lo and behold, the front-end was that of a '75 LeMans!

texases

I thought you'd have the real answer, Andre - a '75 LeMans with the louver window option. It was silver, single round headlights.

uplanderguy

My memory is that all "LeMans Sport" coupes starting in '73 had those windows, and many '73 GTO's had them too although I've heard on the GTO you could get louvered or the base LeMans triangular quarter windows. I'm not aware of any base LeMans cars, or Luxury LeMans or Grand LeMans models, having the louvered windows. They look nice, but I wouldn't want to be in the back seat with those! LOL

All the Grand Am coupes had them.

andre1969

I actually prefer the large, triangular windows, but the LeMans did away with them entirely after 1975, making the little opera window that the Grand LeMans used standard on the base coupe. I guess though, with the more squared-up styling, those windows wouldn't have blended in as well? Still, the Cutlass and Century coupes, which were even more squared off than the LeMans for '76, continued to offer them.

However Pontiac was trying hard to take the LeMans upscale. It seemed like the LeMans got hit harder than equivalent Chevy/Olds/Buick models during the '74 fuel crisis, and it never really recovered the way the Malibu, Century, and Cutlass did. Meanwhile, the Grand Prix was really taking off in popularity, so Pontiac was trying to hope some of that would rub off on the LeMans. The popularity of the Grand Prix is probably the main reason the LeMans fell out of favor so much.

Then again, part of could have been the styling. I never really cared for the '73-75 style LeMans, as it was almost too curvy, and looked fat from some angles. In contrast, the Chevelle, Century, and Cutlass seemed more tasteful. And with Olds and Pontiac both using a split grille, a lot of buyers probably figured let's just get the Cutlass.

GM would shoot the Cutlass and Century in the foot when they downsized for '78, though, with those clumsy "Aeroback" models. The LeMans saw a modest sales boost, from around 80,000 units in 1977 to around 120,000 for 1978, but that was still a long ways away from the glory days of the 1960's and early 70's.

IIRC, the 1978 Malibu wasn't all that impressive, sales-wise, compared to 1977, either. The sales magic that GM had with their big cars for 1977 didn't quite carry over to the 1978 intermediates. Some of them were still popular, like the Malibu, Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, Regal, and Cutlass Supreme coupe, but I believe sales were still down a bit from 1977.

I wonder if GM could have gotten away with simply running the '73-77 Colonade cars for another year or two? That's what Ford and Mopar ended up doing with their midsizers. Although Ford tried to pass off the LTD-II as a downsized full-sizer, although few people fell for it. And Mopar did sort of the same thing, as they had transferred former full-sized names like Fury and Monaco to what had been the Satellite and Coronet.

I guess GM would have had to do something with the intermediates, as they had already downsized the full-sized cars.

andys120

I took a trip out to the NH coast yesterday and saw some old iron. Coming towards me I saw what appeared to be a black 1950s Porsche 356A Speedster which looked really cool with the top down on a nice fall day. Most likely it was a replica with a fiberglass body on a VW chassis (they're usually powered by a souped VW). As with Cobras, real Speedsters have become too rare and valuable to risk on public roads so if you see one it's most likely a fake.

I also saw a '64 Ford Galaxie coupe with the NASCAR (slope-back) roof.

uplanderguy

...on this unseasonably warm, sunny early-fall day:

A light non-metallic beige '71 or '72 (couldn't tell) Olds Ninety-Eight 4-door hardtop with matching beige vinyl top and all four windows down.

It looked drop-dead stock, sat well, and took smartly off after stopping at the corner.

Had Ohio "Historical" plates on it.

I've never seen it around here before.

ab348

My old '77 LeMans coupe had the small opera-style quarter windows, and I rather liked how they looked. I thought the larger triangular quarter window looked a bit downmarket.

Wish I could find pictures of that car. I think I took some. I always liked it, factory 2-tone, white painted roof over light metallic blue body and white vinyl interior. The dash panel and floor carpet were blue, to coordinate with the body paint. The girls seemed to like it.

uplanderguy

I just remembered why the '73 GTO had either the triangular quarter windows or the louvered windows. The GTO was an option package by that time, and could be ordered on the LeMans (triangular window) or LeMans Sport Coupe (louvered windows standard).

I'm still of the belief that only LeMans Sport Coupes, Grand Ams, and Can Ams (thanks for reminding me of that one, andre!) had the louvered windows.

berri

When did the louvered window thing actually start? I seem to recall them on latter 60's Mustangs, although I never really was a fan of those window treatments. As for the mid 70's GM coupes, I agree with ab that the triangular ones seemed a bit down market. However, that may because they tended to be on the lower priced models. I liked the sharper roofline creases and opera window look on the more formal models like Cutlass Supreme and Malibu Classic. Maybe if those triangle windows had been tinted like nowadays suv's and minivans they might have been more popular?

uplanderguy

Those louvers on Mustang fastbacks weren't actually windows; they were actually louvers and could be opened from inside for air, IIRC.

I like the large triangular windows on the GM Colonnade coupes, because they have probably the best rearward visibility of any car I can think of, and 'open up' the interior, light-wise, fake perception of space-wise, etc. IMHO, only Buick and Olds continued to offer those big windows with fairly lux interiors into '76 and '77. After '73, the only Chevelles with the large windows was the downmarket Malibu, which is what the previous year's "Deluxe" was. The Luxury LeMans in '73 had the big windows, but for '74 and later, most all upscale Colonnades had the fastback roof with the opera window, and resultant big blind quarter! The market spoke, though, and it said that most folks weren't crazy about the large triangular window.

I always wish a '76 Malibu Classic coupe could have been had with the large windows and no hood ornament, but no such luck.

andre1969

One hardtop style I liked, although it's probably a bit polarizing, is the 1974-76 Catalina, LeSabre, and Delta 88 hardtop coupe. I think the 1974 Bonneville may have used it as well. It sort of resembled the "Colonade" style of the intermediate cars, with a large stationary window, but also had a small roll-down window.



I wonder if these '74-76 roof treatments were any better with regards to rollover protection than the preceding '71-73 styles had been?

uplanderguy

That is a beautiful LeSabre in a beautiful color IMHO, although generally I'm not a fan of that roofline's styling. It was practical to have a roll-down rear quarter window though. I thought it was funny (odd) that the upper-models had only a stationary quarter window (Electra 225, Grand Ville, Ninety-Eight, etc.), as the Chevys did.

An in-law had a '74 LeSabre hardtop coupe with that roofline. His car was a russet color with a beige vinyl top, but was an entry-level LeSabre with pie-plate wheel covers and no trim around the wheel openings. It was nice inside I think though.

BTW, sorry about your furlough situation. What a drag, no matter what party one espouses. Please report back on Carlisle and Hershey. You and lemko are lucky to live so close to those places. I had an offer, as in past years, to stay with a friend in his motor home and use a golf cart to ride around the flea market, which is heavenly, but I simply can't miss any more work--I work straight commission, plus our daughter is coming home from college Thursday night for a long weekend. I'll miss it as Hershey is great fun I think, even if I don't spend any money.

I grew up liking Chevys, with a smidgen of Pontiacs, and a quiet acknowledgement that I thought certain Studes were cool. When I got a Stude, I stopped paying attention to anything that wasn't a Stude. For a good while now, I'm able to enjoy almost anything original or at least authentically restored, and of course Hershey is the place for that. It's fun to see lesser-model cars lovingly shown. The HPOF class is interesting to me although I think it's a little loose of a categorization. One of these days, I hope to be there and at least meet you and lemko, to have faces with the pics I have in my head of you guys already! LOL I'd enjoy checking out Caddies and Mopars! Sometime...

ab348

Those cars were so massive that it probably worked better than it would on a smaller car, but I can't say I was a fan of that roofline. I actually wasn't a fan of anything from GM in that generation of fullsize cars.

andre1969

On the midsized coupes, the doors were so long that I don't think there would have been any room for a roll-down rear window.

Actually, I wonder now if the doors were really much longer than, say, the 1968-72 models, of if the whole passenger cabin was moved backward a bit for the '73-77? Was the cowl/firewall, for instance, in the same location relative to the front and rear axles in both generations?

ab348

I own a '68 Cutlass coupe, and owned a '77 LeMans coupe back in the 1980s, so I'm working from memory for that part of it. But I would say that the '70s edition definitely had bigger, longer, heavier doors than the earlier cars. And judging from my memory of the engine compartment in the LeMans, I believe it is true that the passenger compartment was moved back at least a bit. The engine room in the LeMans seemed to me to be much bigger than that in my '68. The chassis of the '70s edition was greatly updated, and the car drove, rode and handled much better than the earlier model.

fintail

On the road this morning saw a red 190SL, an old Mini with racing decals, a 65 Mustang convertible, a ~65 Stingray in a pretty silvery blue, and a pristine 92-93 500SEL.

uplanderguy

I think the doors of the '73-77 GM intermediates were much longer and heavier than the '68-72's. They even put the rear-seat ashtrays at the ends of the interior door panels on the '73-77's.

They were on the same wheelbase, but I do remember reading that rear-seat legroom increased a tad in '73. Not sure what that means as far as where it was picked up.

I remember going with my Dad to new car introduction night for the '68 Chevys. Dad had bought a new '67 Chevelle in March of '67. I remember we both were surprised how much smaller a '68 Chevelle seemed than a '67. Four-doors had an inch longer wheelbase but seemed narrower and the trunks seemed much smaller. The coupes were on a three-inch shorter wheelbase than '67.

fintail

Out again, saw a 90s Camry wagon missing both rear wipers and the fuel door, a pristine 86-89 Accord LXi, and a MB W123 280E.