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I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)
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Not obscure nor a classic (yet anyway), but maybe you can offer some advice to this guy:
1996 Mercedes C220 any good for a daily driver?
Advice? I think Qbrozen can sell him one!
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The movie "It's a mad mad mad mad world had a ton of well known pretty popular actors and actresses in it. Everyone from Jimmy Durante who "kicked the bucket" to The Three Stooges who made a cameo appearance.
The final scene where the mystery of the "Big W" was solved was taken at Peck Park in San Pedro Californai right across the street from where my best friend grew up and his 97 year old dad still lives. My buddy still remembers when the filming took place.
A ton of television shows and movies were (and still are) filmed in San Pedro. It's close to the studios and it has everything they could want. A harbor with a fishing fleet (what's left of it), a lot of steep hills and cliffs to run cars over.
Growing up they would often have streets cordoned off during chase scenes etc. I remember once seeing at least four different Starsky and Hutch orange Ford Torinos at the same time racing around. Several episodes of Mannix were filmed there. It was fun to spot houses that I had walked past many times. A few Adam 12 episodes were filmed there.
They have old warehouses that I often recognize and an old courthouse that has served as a police station as well as a courthouse.
It wasn't unusual to walk into a restaurant and see a celebrity and their crew members.
It was a pretty good place to grow up.!
I haven't seen the green one but there is a powder blue one I've seen in Issaquah. It's kinda ratty but it's never been modified and it seems to run OK. I know you've seen the primered up '67 Galaxie with the wing on the trunk. I seem to see that car everywhere. It's LOUD!
If the car has history and passes inspection - might not be a bad ride. C220 is the basic model with a simple 4cyl, not a lot of junk to go wrong, and by 1996, I think the wiring decomposition issues were gone. If in a harsh area, check the suspension for rust, make sure the transmission has been serviced, etc. That style C-class was a lot less troublesome than the ones that replaced it.
Edit - oops, maybe should have posted that at the link
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Yep I see that crazy beast now and then, especially around Factoria. Someone must love that thing, to use it as a regular driver takes commitment. Makes me think of what a teenager might have been driving in the late 70s.
There are a number of old cars I see now and then in Bellevue - Volvo 544 and a couple Amazons, a couple of MB W116s, early "Duel" style Dart/Valiant and an earlier Dart/Valiant 2 door post, ~68 Impala 4 door HT, ~68 Eldo, Datsun 810 wagon, Toronado XS, and some I forget no doubt.
Speaking of the 544, I saw one at the Volvo display at the car show. Super clean. Looked like an antique parked next to the 1975 164 they had there. What shocked me was that it was a 1965 model (sold in the US). I was sure that it was long gone before that, with the 122 replacing it. The 544 was produced for 18 years per the sign, so not surprising that in 1965 it looked like a refuge from the '40s. It was.
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speaking of the car show, they had some nice old stuff. the shelby daytona coupe (#1 of very few), a '63 XKE, an allard, a Bizzarini, assorted muscle, some imposing '30s stuff (caddy, Morman, etc.). And one total oddball: a 1979 Fiat 124 spyder, with an AT no less. Parked right between a Model T and a Hispan Suiza. At least there was 1 car in the antiques section I could actually afford!
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Ended up following a '49 Cadillac convertible for several blocks yesterday, the nice weather must have brought it out. Hope he didn't think we were stalkers, after going around the block we headed off to the store, which he also was going to, so we were on his tail for quite a while!
I owned a 1978 Ford Fairmont with the 302.
Oops, brain fart time. I know full-well the Fairmont came out for 1978, but for some reason my brain was focused on 1979 when I typed that! So I should have pondered whether the 302 was offered in '78-79 or '78-80. Anyway, just looked in my old car encyclopedia, and it only shows '78-79.
Oh, and here's an odd one. For 1978, the 302 is listed as having 134 hp in the LTD-II and non-wagon LTD's (I can't imagine something as big as a '78 LTD only having a 302!) In the Granada and Fairmont, it's listed as having 139 hp.
For 1979, it gets even more convoluted. 129 hp in the Panther LTD, 133 in the LTD-II, 137 in the Granada, and 140 in the Fairmont. Kinda odd that they'd have so many permutations, and even odder, IMO that the smaller cars had more hp. I'd think that cars like the Granada and Fairmont would have smaller engine bays and less area to route the exhaust, and that would inhibit them a bit, and give the smaller cars less hp? That was the case with GM in 1985, where if you got a 305 in a pickup truck or full-sized car like a Caprice or Parisienne, it had 165 hp. But if you got it the midsized cars, like a Bonneville-G, Grand Prix, or Monte Carlo (non-SS), it was restricted a bit, because of the exhaust I think, and only put out 150 hp.
So how was that '78 Fairmont? Did you like it? Was it a good car, for the time?
"That was the case with GM in 1985, where if you got a 305 in a pickup truck or full-sized car like a Caprice or Parisienne, it had 165 hp. But if you got it the midsized cars, like a Bonneville-G, Grand Prix, or Monte Carlo (non-SS), it was restricted a bit, because of the exhaust I think, and only put out 150 hp."
Was it the exhaust that made the difference, or did the larger GMs have a 4-barrel carb vs. a 2-barrel in the mid-sizers?
No, by that time GM went with 4-bbl all the way for the 305. IIRC, the 305 came out in 1976 and only offered a 2-bbl carb with 145 hp. It stayed that way in 1977-78, but in 1979, another wave of emissions requirement strangled engines again, and the 2-bbl was cut to 130 hp. That year, they came out with a 4-bbl version, which had 160 hp. At least that's according to my old car book. Wikipedia says a 4-bbl was offered in 1978, but I don't think it was, unless it was a Camaro/Firebird engine. And at some point, I think they offered a 305 in the Corvette even, but I can't remember which year. It would've been more powerful most likely, but still nothing to get excited about.
For 1980, the 2-bbl version of the 305 was dropped, and the 4-bbl was cut slightly to 155 hp. I believe from 1981-84, the 305-4bbl had 150 hp in the likes of mid/full-sized cars and trucks (more in Camaros and Firebirds). But then for 1985, the full-sized cars and trucks got a slight bump, to 165. So, I don't know if it was a revised exhaust that did that, different carburetor, tuning, or what?
Oh, and there were hotter versions of the 305 as well, such as the 180 hp version that the Monte SS used. And by 1985, I think the Camaro Iroc-Z had 210 hp, out of a fuel injected version.
I've had two 305's...the first was in my Mom's old '86 Monte Carlo (non-SS, unfortunately). I thought it seemed decently quick at the time, but if I had to go back to driving it today, I have a feeling the old saying "you can't go home again" would ring true. But, it was also 12 years old and had 179,000 miles on it when she gave it to me, so it might have run a bit better when it was new.
The other one is the 305 in my Granddad's '85 Silverado. When I was young and first got my driver's license, he let me drive that truck alot, and it seemed pretty quick, at the time. But then, in 2002 when it came into my ownership, I remember the first time I drove it I was thinking what a dog! But, I timed it with a stopwatch, and 0-60 came up in about 12 seconds, which is probably about what it did when it was new. It's just that, over those years, I got used to quicker vehicles.
"no..."
I had a 305 in my '78 LeMans, which I purchased new. It was the base model, which I preferred to the tarted up Grand LeMans. I ordered it with the upgraded "touring" suspension, that also included wider tires. I got excellent service from this car, and generally enjoyed driving it. Never felt it was underpowered, even though the engine felt chocked down by the mechanical emissions technology of the day. Using your words, it was "decently quick." The main drawback was the 3-speed automatic that GM used on these cars. Gears were very widely spaced, so that rpms really fell off from one gear to the next. Shifts also weren't crisp, and there seemed to be more slippage than with other 3-speed automatics of the day. Further, first gear seemed very tall for a 3-speed, kind of like that of 2-speed automatics. That hurt off-the-line performance.
The 305 in that car was a good engine, and never gave me any trouble.
More on my LeMans later, since I've got to get to an appointment.
Fintail,
I've seen that Toronado XS around Factoria. Strange model with that wrap around rear window.
I'm sure it's the same car. White with out of place wide whitewalls?
That's the one!
Thinking of oddities, something I've seen several times in the area around 148th/20th - a black 63-65 Riviera with what looks like side pipes.
Yes, it was great. I had it for 13 years and 140K miles, at which point the body had some rust through from three years in Europe. It was extremely peppy due to the low weight. It was lightly built and did have some road noise to it. But it was solid and reliable over the years.
For years after I left that car, I kept hitting the turn signal stalk to try and sound the horn!
That turn-signal-stalk horn was not one of Ford's better ideas.
My Dad's Renault Alliance had the turn signal horn, too. although it was so slow and unreliable, people were usually honking at us.
80s sporty car day here - saw a first gen MR2, an 86-87 Civic Si, and a late Fiero GT. Also saw a nice later W126 and a S500 coupe ca. 1995. A decent late 70s Chevy pickup rounded out the evening.
I'll conclude by saying that while the downsized '78 GM intermediates were far for perfect, they were competent and represented excellent values in their day; better, overall, than Ford, Mopar and the imports, in my opinion.
My LeMans was still going strong in 1985, when my daughter was involved in an accident that totaled it. It had 114,000+ miles on the odometer.
1st gen M3 - looked unmolested, in good shape - that's rare around here...
Just out of curiosity, at that time were you comparing the LeMans to similar-sized cars, such as the Fairmont/Zephyr, Granada/Monarch, Aspen/Volare, etc, or to cars still being marketed as midsized, such as the LTD-II/Cougar and Fury/Monaco?
I think I remember you once mentioning wanting a Fairmont, but that one equipped the way you wanted was hard to find, or something like that? So I'm guessing it would be similar-sized cars.
I agree, that those downsized GM intermediates weren't perfect, but then again, everything back then had its flaws. They were a pretty good choice, overall. I've had three of them: an '80 Malibu coupe with the 229 V-6, an '82 Cutlass Supreme with the 231, and an '86 Monte Carlo with the 305. I liked them all. I actually liked the Cutlass the best, because of the styling, interior, and color, which was a light jadestone green/blue.
I bet Andre knows. I have seen a couple others over the years - I don't think they are insanely rare, just unusual - and due to weirdness probably have a high survival rate.
I have a toy one like this:
Well, that style where the T-tops retracted inward was called the XSR, and they only built one or two prototypes. I think the main issue was that they leaked horribly in the rain, and the designers couldn't figure a way to work around that.
As for the XS, which had the wraparound rear window, I think they sold around 2500-3000 per year in 1977 and 1978. I can't remember the last time I've seen one, but it's been ages since I've seen ANY Toronado from the late 70's, around here. I've seen an occasional '71 or so pop up at the GM show in Carlisle PA. I think the XS was around $3K more than a regular Toronado. I'll have to look at my old car book to see how many, exactly, were made. I know I've seen them with sunroofs, but I don't know if that was an extra cost option, or standard. You'd think at a $3K premium, it would come with it!
TWO, count 'em folks....TWO SV-1 Bricklins inhabited by cats in an old garage. With the build quality of an Italian TV dinner tray and the power to possibly tear itself loose from a mouse stick 'um strip, these babies are sure to be future classics. Options include automatic de-laminating fiberglass and collapsing gullwing doors.
There was an XS Toronado even in our small, out-of-the-way town of about 8,000 at that time. I thought the 'no blind spot' was a good idea, but the looks of it didn't really do much for me.
Concerning the '78 GM intermediates--people balked at the stationery sedan rear windows and the compact spares, new at the time. The pricing seemed high, I remember hearing/reading a lot on that. I believe the Fairmont and Zephyr were priced more competitively than the GM's were. Still, back then in college, I remember wishing I could buy a black '78 Malibu Classic coupe, argent 'honeycomb' wheel covers, gold cloth interior with 50/50 front seat and dual center armrests, gauge package (round instruments like the Monte Carlo), F41 suspension, whitewalls, FM radio, rear speaker, deluxe bumpers (rub strips), and that's about it. Never did buy one. BTW, I used to notice that two or three-year-old V8 Malibus would look like they were going downhill--front springs shot. Sixes, even all these years later, look high in the front. They couldn't have possibly used the same springs, could they? LOL
I don't understand why they would even bother making that version.
And, 3000.00 more?? What did you get besides that wrap around rear glass? Anything?
40 years later, not a collectible - it's gotta happen sometime, right?
They're right on the cusp of immortality, just like the Delorean and the Fiero and the Zimmer---any day now. I saw a really nice Bricklin sell on eBay for $8,000. They had even souped up the engine, and converted the defunct hydraulic doors to compressed air. Kinda cool to have your car go CHEESH-CHEEshhhhh....every time you get out.
Concerning the Toronado...according to my old car book, for 1977 the stats were:
Brougham coupe: $8134, 31,371 produced.
XS coupe: $10,684, 2714 produced (including one XSR prototype)
For 1978...
Brougham coupe: $9412, 22,362 produced.
XSC coupe: no price listed, 2,453 produced
Oh, and according to this site: http://www.toronado.org/FAQ/GenII/xsr.htm There were at least two XSR's that were built...a red one that's supposedly the "official" prototype, and a silver one that's apparently being restored. Or was, as of 1996 when that article was written. The article throws around city names like Winchester VA and Rockville MD, so apparently the car is (or was) somewhat local to me. I don't ever recall seeing it at any local car shows though.
That site also says the moonroof was standard on the XS. In those days, a moonroof was often around $1,000, so that at least partially accounts for the $2500 premium of the XS. IMO at least, the article also says that GM experimented first with their hot-wire bending process on the Toronado's glass, and used what they learned on the '77-79 Impala/Caprice. Dunno how true this is though, as both came out in '77. Maybe the XS was in pre-production first, though?
Spotted: rough red 1974 Cadillac Coupe DeVille with white landau top near Tyson and Castor in NE Philly.
I wonder how impossible it would be to find a rear glass for an XS?
It'll cost you $1,200. The rest of the car is free!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oldsmobile-Toronado-XS-Brougham-Oldsmobile-Toronado-XS-Brougham-1978-/321325633218?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4ad0800ec2&item=321325633218&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
Spotted: Much nicer white 1976 Cadillac Coupe DeVille with a maroon top near Tyson and Oxfrod Avenue in NE Philly. I wonder if the '74 and '76 are owned by the same guy?
That Toro seller is right about one thing. It does have "some" rust!
With my luck I would bust that rear glass taking it out. Looks like about a four man job!
Saw a Dodge 600 convertible in Providence, RI today. It was hard to tell how solid it was as it was a gray, rainy day. It was running thought.
A light blue Pontiac 6000. Had flush headlights in the front. Didn't notice any rust.
I know a couple of the guys that were involved in resurrecting that XSR in the late '90s. The car was in the Va/Md area where these guys reside, but was owned by a guy named Don Ross in Connecticut. Don had some health issues a couple of years back and I don't know if he's even still with us. I heard he was downsizing his car collection after he became ill.
I never really cared much for the Toro after 1972 or so, but the early ones were really cool.
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I originally ordered a nicely trimmed '78 Fairmont with the I-6 and automatic through my employer's buying service. Fairmonts were hot (hard to believe now, right?) when they first came out, and when my car arrived at the dealership the dealer sold it to someone who paid more for it than the buying service price. Upon investigating, I learned that this dealer, in the Chicago area, had done this on several occasions. That, and the fact that the GM intermediates were more substantial than the Fairmont/Zephyr, made me decide to buy a GM intermediate, even though they cost more than the Fords. I didn't consider the Granada because it had an awful suspension, in my opinion, and had been on the market since the '75 model year. I briefly thought about a Lebaron/Diplomat, but the LeMans just seemed better designed and got better mileage. The LeMans was also slightly less expensive than those Mopars. I considered the upgraded Malibu vs. the base Lemans. They were similarly priced, but I decided the LeMans (the darker of two greens, with white vinyl upholstery) looked better and had a nicer dashboard. As you know, the Malibu and LeMans shared platforms and drivetrains, so it was a subjective choice.
Yeah, my Mom wanted a LeMans in 1980, but chose a Malibu instead because she was able to get a better deal on it. And I agree, the LeMans/Grand Prix dashboard does seem much higher quality than the Malibu dash. My only beef with it is how they made all the HVAC gauges round, so between that and the gauges, there were just too many circles!
I like the Monte Carlo cluster in '78 (optional on the Malibu), but I dislike the standard Malibu instrument panel of those years. One small perception thing, positive I think, is how the dash in the center, upper portion is pushed back towards the windshield, giving an open feeling. This area is pushed out towards the center passenger on the Pontiac and Olds dashes (Buick dash is similar to Chevy in this area), although it's really wasted space in the Chevys and Buicks.
I think the Pontiac had the best panel of all the midsizes that year. I thought that starting back in '63 or '64--when the big cars had the round gauges in the center tilted towards the driver--that Pontiac dashes were the best in GM, and I felt that way with the panel in the '73 Grand Am and Grand Prix (also used in your later Grand LeMans), and the '78 LeMans and Grand Am and Grand Prix models.
My parents had an '80 Monte Carlo and an '84. Dad smoked a cigar, and he hated how in the '80, the ashtray flipped open down towards the floor, instead of sliding open. His '84's opened with a sliding feature, which he liked much better. I had an '81 and an '82 but didn't smoke so I can't recall when the change was made.
I liked that too. It really made the cars feel open and airy, on the passenger side. However, one detail I didn't like was how the part of the dash that contained the radio and HVAC controls jutted out, and was placed low, robbing room from the middle passenger. It wasn't as noticeable on the LeMans/Grand Prix, because that part was integrated into the part that had the gauges, but it still made the center spot worse.
The Fairmont/Zephyr and Volare/Aspen (and LeBaron/Diplomat) were better in this regard, having those controls mounted up higher, and out of the way of the center passenger. By this time though, I don't know how critical 3-across seating up front was for your typical car buyer, so in the overall scheme of things, it's probably no big deal. The last time I had six people in a car, it was my 1989 Gran Fury, and probably back in 1999. I can't remember the last time I had 3 across in the back seat of a car, either, although I do remember doing it once in my Intrepid, and my aunt remarking at how roomy the car felt. I do remember sitting in the back of my buddy's '04 Crown Vic with two others, and it wasn't as roomy as you might think.
Must have been fun for you as a kid driving around while he smoked a cigar in the car! Almost as bad as my mom's cigarettes.
The dash design was a big reason why Dad bought the Grand Lemans Safari in the fall of '77. We didn't like the Malibu dash at all, the Buick's was only a bit better, and I don't think we saw the Olds. But the Pontiac dash was quite obviously "designed", not just engineered. It just looked cool with all those circles. I can attest from watching Mom that the ashtray on the Pontiac slid out in '78.
Even though each division had a unique instrument cluster, it was all too obvious that it was a corporate design, adapted, since the passenger side was identical and the center stack radio and ventilation controls were all common as well. The Pontiac people did the best job of disguising that, and their design also integrated best with a bucket seat and console look like in the Grand Prix. It was a bit of a throwback to the '73-'77 design.
It did allow an airier passenger side, but not to the same extent that the '69-'70 Ford "swept away" dash design did. But the Ford design did a poor job of usability, as everything was clustered in front of the driver, even the radio. This GM design worked better.
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A buddy of mine had a '78 Malibu Classic and the ashtray slid out, so I don't know why the '80 had the 'flip down' ashtray. Weird. Mom also smoked cigarettes on top of Dad's cigars and pipe. Our '74 Impala had a narrow, long ashtray, which Dad liked, as his entire pipe could sit in there!
Yeah, the dash designs were becoming more and more "corporate", but to be fair, they were still differentiating them better than Ford or Mopar did. In 1978, for example, a Fury, Monaco, Magnum, and Cordoba all shared the same dash. They might change some minor trim here and there, or use a different woodgrain, but otherwise, the layout was pretty much the same. Ford did the same thing with the LTD-II/Cougar and Thunderbird/XR-7. And, in compacts (well, Fox-based cars...some of them were branded as midsize) I seem to remember the '81-82 Granada dash wasn't all that different from the Fairmont dash. The Mustang dash looks about the same, too. And the '80-82 T-bird dash looks about the same as what was in my grandparents' 1985 LTD.
So, maybe GM just had to get with the times, and start cutting costs here and there to compete? GM also went through a lot more effort, in general, to differentiate their cars, such as sheetmetal and bumpers that differed from car to car. I think as time went on, the Cutlass/Century/Regal did have more in common though, as well as the LeMans/Malibu.
In some ways, it seemed like Pontiac put a bit more effort into the LeMans (and Grand Prix) for 1978, versus the other cars. For instance, the dashboard, as you mentioned. But also, the Grand Prix had door panels that were a bit more unique, with that swept-up look toward the front of the armrests, mimicking the '73-77. IIRC, with the rest of the GM intermediates, the lower, plastic part of the door panel was pretty much the same throughout, although the nicer trim levels would have carpeting glued at the bottom. The LeMans also seemed a bit ambitious, having integrated, plastic covered bumpers instead of exposed, jutting chrome bumpers.
The '78 intermediates shared a pair of common greenhouses (Aeroback and conventional) and I believe door skins. The wagons all looked pretty much the same from the rear because they shared a bumper stamping as well, and that had an identical space for the taillight regardless of make. I do remember our '78 Lemans had a nicely shaped hood stamping, with a center spline or domed area that looked good from behind the wheel. I thought it had the best-looking front end design too, with the soft nose and a nicely-designed grille. I did like the Buick's front end too, but the rest of the design didn't do much for me.
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GM could justify spending more on model differentiation than Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler Corp., due to scale. Or, maybe the greater differentiation, going all the way back to the '30s, '40s and '50s, contributed to GM's scale. Also, GM had more brands, which probably helped before imports became a factor in the U.S. By the mid-'80s having more brands became a cost disadvantage. Toyota-Lexus proved that you only needed a mass market and luxury brand (Scion doesn't count, since it never gained much traction).