I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

andre1969

texases said:

I'm not finding 7.7 seconds for the '74 GTO, more like 9.4, stock that is.

Here's one of the places where i found the 7.7... http://phscollectorcarworld.blogspot.com/2012/09/1974-pontiac-gtomuscle-car-or-pretender.html

It was vague on the source though, only that "A magazine road test delivered a 15.72 @88 mph with a zero to sixty mph dash in 7.7 seconds." That car could have been specially prepped, though.

The '74 GTO came standard with a 3-speed manual, with a 4-speed being optional. California models were stuck with the Turbo Hydramatic, which might have been optional elsewhere.

I wonder if 7.7 might have been the 4-speed, and under "optimal" weather conditions, and the 9.4 might have been an automatic, or a 3-speed? Would the 4-speed give you much advantage over a 3-speed, in acceleration?

**Edit...oops, just saw your later post, where you pretty much said just this...

andre1969

imidazol97 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Here's another wreck--it's a 1996 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham. Nothing really special but it's the last RWD, bench-seat, 6 passenger, full battleship Cadillac you're likely to see again.

This car was also totaled--a classic case of even modest damage exterminating a car with not much retail value.

This is a low miles example so we're fighting to save it--but if an insurance company is determined to total, it's very difficult to prevent that. At best, all you can do is get more money for the write-off. Insurance companies don't want to be hunting down 22 year old pieces.

My guess is that in this area of Ohio lots of parts for that car are on the roads and therefore in junkyards, errr, recycling units. Maybe even in pick-n-pull lots.

If this is a low mileage car, a high mileage car could donate parts to it and junk the rest.

Hood, headlight, left fender... was the bumper deformed?

There's a small part of me that wants to reach out and try to save that '96 Fleetwood. But it would probably be too much trouble. And they're pretty scarce around these parts. I think a lot of them got pressed into taxi service as they became used cars. They were also popular in the various 'hoods for awhile, and got beat up in the process. And these days, I don't think there are too many junkyards, in my area at least, that are going to hang onto something that old. I'd guess once you get away from the urban areas, where junkyards tend to hold onto cars longer, rather than be crushing operations, you might be more likely to find something like this.

explorerx4

Could be a Bobcat instead of a Pinto?
Also see a beige VW Bug and green Olds 98.

texases

explorerx4 said:

Could be a Bobcat instead of a Pinto?
Also see a beige VW Bug and green Olds 98.

Not a Bobcat, they came out in '74, with the big bumpers.

Mr_Shiftright

andre1969 said:

imidazol97 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Here's another wreck--it's a 1996 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham. Nothing really special but it's the last RWD, bench-seat, 6 passenger, full battleship Cadillac you're likely to see again.

This car was also totaled--a classic case of even modest damage exterminating a car with not much retail value.

This is a low miles example so we're fighting to save it--but if an insurance company is determined to total, it's very difficult to prevent that. At best, all you can do is get more money for the write-off. Insurance companies don't want to be hunting down 22 year old pieces.

My guess is that in this area of Ohio lots of parts for that car are on the roads and therefore in junkyards, errr, recycling units. Maybe even in pick-n-pull lots.

If this is a low mileage car, a high mileage car could donate parts to it and junk the rest.

Hood, headlight, left fender... was the bumper deformed?

There's a small part of me that wants to reach out and try to save that '96 Fleetwood. But it would probably be too much trouble. And they're pretty scarce around these parts. I think a lot of them got pressed into taxi service as they became used cars. They were also popular in the various 'hoods for awhile, and got beat up in the process. And these days, I don't think there are too many junkyards, in my area at least, that are going to hang onto something that old. I'd guess once you get away from the urban areas, where junkyards tend to hold onto cars longer, rather than be crushing operations, you might be more likely to find something like this.

I think the owner is going to buy it back and scrounge for parts.

omarman

another view of the same cars

fintail

On the road - nice 71-72 El Camino - kind of a medium red with rally wheels, 1985 Buick Somerset Custom in very clean condition - the same granny car I see once every long while, and the oddity, a BMW E23 7er with Michigan historic plates - far from home to be driving something like that.

kyfdx

The whole taillight look on the Maverick and Pinto look off. Maybe, it’s just first year cars, or something else. Or, I just don’t recall it correctly.

stickguy

nice day today, so cars were out. First saw a 1974ish barge Mercury 2 door. White with a blue roof. Later a 67 or so Charger (fastback, with the hidden headlights). That one looked new. And right after that, a tri 5 chevy Biscayne 4 door. Salmon lower, white upper.

later parked on the side of the road, with a 4 sale sign, an unrestored (aka ratty) looking early 70s vintage Ford PU.

tjc78

Saw a 60s Rolls Royce.  Right hand drive. It must have had working AC, all windows were closed. 

Michaell

tjc78 said:

Saw a 60s Rolls Royce.  Right hand drive. It must have had working AC, all windows were closed. 

Or the power windows don’t work...

imidazol97

Continental Mark II on the other side of the interstate. Paint did not look like it had been redone, but instead looked like original paint that had been garaged. In the soft creamy color that barely showed any yellow tone. It was moving along on a trailer pulled by a pickup truck. Beautiful lines on that car.

It was being trailered behind a pickup truck.

stickguy

at least they were kind enough to break in the up position.

Mr_Shiftright

Speaking of old Rolls, looked at this one the other day. It's a 1970 Silver Shadow.

You can buy these dirt cheap, around $15,000 for a presentable driver.

fintail

Small bumper Shadows are lot more attractive than later cars, IMO. I know a guy who had a 67, black on red, very nice driver , prior owner had the hydraulic system overhauled at massive cost. He paid 15K for it, had it for a few years, lacked the time to drive it, eventually sold it and I think got most of his money back. As long as one is comfortable with potential maintenance money pits, I think it's a cool car.

tjc78

Michaell said:

tjc78 said:

Saw a 60s Rolls Royce.  Right hand drive. It must have had working AC, all windows were closed. 

Or the power windows don’t work...

It was 76 yesterday.  That would be a miserable drive!

explorerx4

Fist Stinger, a red one, on the road. Also a blue Lacrosse and a new gen white Wrangler Unlimited.

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

Small bumper Shadows are lot more attractive than later cars, IMO. I know a guy who had a 67, black on red, very nice driver , prior owner had the hydraulic system overhauled at massive cost. He paid 15K for it, had it for a few years, lacked the time to drive it, eventually sold it and I think got most of his money back. As long as one is comfortable with potential maintenance money pits, I think it's a cool car.

Yep, if you can buy one that has had the brakes/suspension system overhauled, then there's not too much to worry about. The V8 engine is a slug, but pretty reliable, and the transmission is a GM Hydramatic (but alas, in a RR casing). Nice cockpit, though. They smell great inside. Like an old library with leather chairs, waxed wood and light mildew.

roadburner

The Brit classic magazine I read liked a suspension kit that was offered by a RR specialist. Supposedly the handling was tightened up without adversely affecting the ride quality.

fintail

That's exactly what this one was like inside, with its patinated wood and leather - a turn of the century gentleman's club. Lots of style and old world materials for the money, just beware of a maintenance nightmare now and then.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Yep, if you can buy one that has had the brakes/suspension system overhauled, then there's not too much to worry about. The V8 engine is a slug, but pretty reliable, and the transmission is a GM Hydramatic (but alas, in a RR casing). Nice cockpit, though. They smell great inside. Like an old library with leather chairs, waxed wood and light mildew.

Mr_Shiftright

I have a friend who specializes in Bentley / RR. I suppose I could buy one and take a chance, with his permission. But still, $8,000 brake jobs are sobering.

fintail

Hopefully hydraulic system overhauls on Sunday drivers are needed less than once per decade.

tjc78

Mr_Shiftright said:

I have a friend who specializes in Bentley / RR. I suppose I could buy one and take a chance, with his permission. But still, $8,000 brake jobs are sobering.

I’ve heard you mention this before.   How does a brake job cost that much?  I’d think a shop could literally custom make all the parts for that much!  

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

Hopefully hydraulic system overhauls on Sunday drivers are needed less than once per decade.

Ferrari maintenance reports suggest otherwise And the RR system is no ordinary hydraulic arrangement.

I think they are more like air suspension systems--they just get sick and throw up whenever they feel like it.

kyfdx

tjc78 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

I have a friend who specializes in Bentley / RR. I suppose I could buy one and take a chance, with his permission. But still, $8,000 brake jobs are sobering.

I’ve heard you mention this before.   How does a brake job cost that much?  I’d think a shop could literally custom make all the parts for that much!  


It's the "shop charges" that run up the bill.

Those mechanics go through tuxedos, like crazy!

texases

Biggest collection of Rolls and Bentleys I’ve seen in a while yesterday at a local car show in the expensive Park Cities area. From the ‘30s on up, along with a good selection of other classics. 

Mr_Shiftright

kyfdx said:

tjc78 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

I have a friend who specializes in Bentley / RR. I suppose I could buy one and take a chance, with his permission. But still, $8,000 brake jobs are sobering.

I’ve heard you mention this before.   How does a brake job cost that much?  I’d think a shop could literally custom make all the parts for that much!  

It's the "shop charges" that run up the bill.

Those mechanics go through tuxedos, like crazy!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's why it costs $8,000 and here's why nobody on a TV reality auto show is going to fix it using Yankee ingenuity

"The system contains two hydraulic circuits that operate in parallel for the brakes. One of the systems also powers the rear height control. Hydraulic fluid is stored in reservoirs on the left fender well. Lines carry the fluid to the hydraulic pumps, which are located in the center top of the engine (pumps are engine driven); under the carburetors or the fuel injection. High-pressure pipes carry the hydraulic fluid to the accumulators (which compress nitrogen gas) under the motor. From there excess fluid is returned to the reservoirs. Braided lines carry the high-pressure fluid to the distribution valve assembly located under the driver seat. A network of steel pipes carries hydraulic fluid to the calipers at each wheel and to the rear suspension and height control. The rear suspension contains height control valves, shocks, and gas springs that sit above the shocks in the trunk area.

All the pumps, valves, and moving parts are subject to failure. Calipers rust or leak. Gas springs and accumulators lose their gas charge. Metal lines rust and rubber hoses deteriorate invisibly. A system this complex can only be fully tested by trained people using special tools in a workshop

The fluid in these systems should be changed annually. Some owners question the need for this, when their cars are rarely driven. Here's why it needs to be done: The hydraulic pumps deliver fluid to accumulators where they compress nitrogen gas under very high pressure. The fluid is separated from the nitrogen by a rubber barrier, but it is inevitable that some nitrogen will make its way into the fluid. This forms bubbles, and bubbles in the fluid cause the brakes to pull and act erratically.

Any car that has been sitting a long time is sure to have "funny feeling" brakes for this reason The cure: Change the fluid annually or face a crushing repair bill.

stickguy

what kind of insane engineers came up with that convoluted system and thought it was a good idea?

Mr_Shiftright

Thankfully not the ones who designed the Spitfire.

fintail

Linking up brake and suspension systems, gotta love it. This is why so many Shadows are decrepit and long off the road.

tjc78

Wow...

omarman

Some things in this description sound like the later 70's Silver Shadow II models. But I would not be surprised if the earlier version was an even bigger fountain of dreck!

The fluid in these systems should be changed annually. Some owners question the need for this, when their cars are rarely driven.

"Crushing repair bill" for a deferred brake job? I can see that.

andre1969

Is there any way to simply ditch the entire braking system on one of those Rolls Royces, and replace it with something simpler? Or is even that too major of an undertaking.

My mechanic replaced the entire braking system on my '57 DeSoto. In back, he replaced the whole rear end with one from a '70-74 E-body (Barracuda/Challenger). The DeSoto and E-body both used an 8 3/4 rear, and the spring perch is almost identical...close enough for government work, I guess! Anyway, doing this gives the car a "proper" parking brake that works on the rear drums, rather than trying to clamp down on the driveshaft. It also does away with those rear brake drums that you need a special wheel puller to get on and off.

Up front, the drum brakes were replaced with Mopar M-body (Diplomat/Gran Fury) police car disc brakes. At first, I thought that might be a little inadequate...putting brakes from what was once considered a compact onto a 50's full-sizer...but then I remembered that the M-body copcar brakes are the same as what's on my '79 New Yorker...and I believe R-bodies with the 360 had bigger brakes than the ones with the slant six or 318. So, I'm sure if it's enough brake for a downsized, yet still substantial late 70's full-sizer, I'm sure it's enough for the DeSoto.

He also put in a dual master cylinder. Originally, he said it was going to be the same part they use for a Corvette, because of some kind of fit/clearance issues, but I think it ended up being a Mopar unit, as well.

So, I wonder if you could do something similar to a Rolls? I guess one major difference, is that with my DeSoto, a lot of this more modern stuff still fit, onto the older car, and came from the same company, so it wasn't hard to do. But with Rolls, a lot of stuff from another company might have to be modified, substantially, to make it fit.

imidazol97

andre1969 said:

My mechanic replaced the entire braking system on my '57 DeSoto.

Speaking of your DeSoto..., has there been progress on the body since the last pictures?

fintail

I suspect a Shadow can be converted to sanity given enough time and parts - but the big stumbling block might be values. It would be a huge expense for a not terribly valuable car when finished. Even in the UK where these can be worth more, mint low mileage examples aren't insanely expensive. This system was also used on the later Silver Spirit/Spur cars, hence their similarly low values today.

texases

"But with Rolls, a lot of stuff from another company might have to be modified, substantially, to make it fit. "

Bingo. Hooking up different part that run off the same basic hydraulic system is way simpler that re-engineering an entirely new hydraulic system from stem to stern. And what shop want to take on the liability of messing with the prime safety system on a car?

kyfdx

Maybe the Chevy V-8 conversion from the Jag XJ would work?

PF_Flyer

Friend shared this with me. Not sure inventive is the word I'm searching for

Mr_Shiftright

Rather brilliant actually. They took into account a) access; b)aerodynamics; c) function. What they missed is aesthetics, but then look at the car they were using to support their invention.

fintail said:

I suspect a Shadow can be converted to sanity given enough time and parts - but the big stumbling block might be values. It would be a huge expense for a not terribly valuable car when finished. Even in the UK where these can be worth more, mint low mileage examples aren't insanely expensive. This system was also used on the later Silver Spirit/Spur cars, hence their similarly low values today.

You got lots of talent, you got lots of time, you got lots of money---you can do just about anything to a car.

The V-8 conversions done to Jaguar XJs made absolutely no sense to me, since you are throwing away the only good part of a Jaguar XJ, the 6-cylinder engine (which had a longevity run about as long as the Chevy Stovebolt Six), and leaving all the horrible parts to be stressed out by a Chevy short block, which the car was never designed to deal with. Crazy.

Mr_Shiftright

The hydraulic fluid for the Rolls is $30 a quart so only $75 to refill the system--not too bad. Of course there's the labor.

You definitely want to do that every year, to protect those 16 brake pistons.

omarman

You got lots of talent, you got lots of time, you got lots of money---you can do just about anything to a car.

Yep. Take the flying Pinto. Please.

texases

And this is what became of that Pinto, may the inventor RIP:

andre1969

Oops...Shifty, can you delete this? Accidentally posted twice...

andre1969

I guess if converting the brake system is too difficult, you could always go this route...


If making mods to the underpinnings gets too difficult, just swap out the underpinnings!

texases

Yep!

Mr_Shiftright

You might have to sacrifice a little ride quality though

xwesx

Mr_Shiftright said:

You might have to sacrifice a little ride quality though

Yes, but the visibility bonus more than offsets that!

Mr_Shiftright

True---rather than toss a nickel to the peasants, you can just crush them.

Mr_Shiftright

@fintail -- is a 2005 MB E55 AMG w/ Lorinser bodykit of any great interest to Benz enthusiasts, or is that just a tarted up E55 AMG with no extra appeal? Someone was offered $20K for theirs, which I thought was a very good offer, but they seem to think that offer was way too low...I'm scratching my head on that one.

fintail

If just some gingerbread and nothing else, it is unusual, but not an obscene rarity. 20K range is probably close to what it is worth - those modifications seem to depreciate at the same rate as the rest of the car, which means steeply. The real die-hards probably want some mechanical toys to go along with bumpers, skirts, and wheels. Stock with average miles, these are in the mid-teens now, I think. Late run W211 E63- a more brutal car once the head bolt issue is cured, can be found in the 20s.

Mr_Shiftright said:

@fintail -- is a 2005 MB E55 AMG w/ Lorinser bodykit of any great interest to Benz enthusiasts, or is that just a tarted up E55 AMG with no extra appeal? Someone was offered $20K for theirs, which I thought was a very good offer, but they seem to think that offer was way too low...I'm scratching my head on that one.