I think having Navigation Systems available in rental cars is a good thing. Think about traveling somewhere you've never been, and having to figure out how to get from place to place.
I've actually had this experience (back when Oldsmobile was testing Guidestar in the SF Bay area back in early '97) and it was great. Was nice for my wife, who didn't know the Bay Area - could just drop me off where I needed to be, and go all over (programming destinations in before she left) - and I didn't worry.
Wouldn't care for Nav on a daily basis (I have AAA and can use MapQuest like anyone else). If I traveled extensively to areas where I didn't know my way around, I'd consider getting something like a Garmin StreetPilot, which could be taken/put into any vehicle that I needed to travel in, not just fixed inside one vehicle...
Another draw back to Nav systems besides their high price, is the lack of info once you are away from the main cities and roads. Check out some of the data maps at sites and see. Best on the coasts.
Funny, most of their inventory that has prices have a different format of "stock numbers" (shorter and mostly numbers). Those G6s appear to have Pontiac order numbers as their stock numbers (longer and mostly letters). My guess is those are the first four cars they have on order for the September start of production.
Try comparing resale values 3 years down the road and you may see where the real difference in overall cost is. With incentives and rental units hitting the market, resale on domestics will suck. Most people don't consider this. Too bad it works this way. I still can't justify buying American for all the reasons listed. Too bad, but I work hard for my $$ and must buy the best value for ME.
Resale on Hondas and Toyotas is falling also though not as much. They both have substantial incentives on many models. Mazdas and Nissans are't much better than domestics either. Buy what you want and if you are worried, lock in residuals with a lease.
Try comparing resale values 3 years down the road and you may see where the real difference in overall cost is. With incentives and rental units hitting the market, resale on domestics will suck. Most people don't consider this. Too bad it works this way. I still can't justify buying American for all the reasons listed. Too bad, but I work hard for my $$ and must buy the best value for ME.
The Nissan Altima has dramatically improved its resale value. It is about equal with the Accord now, about 53 percent after four years (Not exactly sure about that timetable, but I learned this from a Nissan dealer when I was looking last month. I didn't believe it, but after I checked, the dealer was right. The Altima is pretty hot right now.)
The best value in the midsize V-6 segment now is the Accord EX-V6. You can buy 'em for about $23.5, loaded with leather, side curtain airbags and satellite radio. That is a hard target for the G6 to hit.
Also, like alpha says, let's give the G6 a chance before ragging all over it. Personally, I like the old-tech V-6. It puts out a ton of torque, which I use much more often than top end power.
2004 Grand Prix GT2 with leather, side curtains, sunroof, and XM would have a MSRP price of $22,890 before any discount just by subtracting rebates, ($21,390 with max new GM card Rebate, $19390 with max old GM card rebate). With the max old rebate you could talk the dealer into letting it go for under $17,000, I would guess.. So have to hope the Honda holds more resale because you may have paid up to 38% more.
A 2005 G6 V6 will sticker right around $23,500 with leather, sunroof, XM and curtains.
I think once we get to see all the numbers & info and touch & drive the G6 it will look much better, as you point out.
Under your maximum GM Card points scenario, the Grand Prix may be a good buy vs. the Accord EX V-6, but of course most people can't bring that extra $3,500 to the table.
I dont understand your post. You're saying that MSRP less the rebate on a Grand Prix GT2 puts it at $22,890?
Grand Prix GT2: $24,975 Add Side Curtains (but where are the seat mounted chest protection airbags like the CamCords have?), Sunroof, Leather Trim Pkg, and XM. $27,385 -$4000 --------- $23,385 (Im pretty sure thats a standard 4000 across the USA...)
I guess thats a decent value, but Id much prefer the Accord EX V6 personally. Actually, Id rather have a Camry SE V6, Im a fan of the styling revisions for 2005, interior upgrades, the availability of Vehicle Skid Control, and a good deal more torque than either the normally aspirated GP or the Accord (with 240 foot pounds at a low 3600 RPM).
The more I see these on the road the more I like them - there are a lot being driven by GM employees around me.
Does anyone know is the prices for all of the options have been released yet?
Is the steering adjusted from that of the Malibu to give the G6 a more sporty feel?
Personnally I think it is a real blunder on the part of GM (not surprising though) not to have the other two engine choices (2.4 and 3.9) available at launch. What a missed opportunity to steal sales from the imports. Really no excuse not to have the 2.4 ready to compete with the lower end Altima and Accord and Camry. Also, need a manual as an option - yeah I know the market is small for these but heck this is supposed to be the excitement division and some buyers will not even look at a sporty car without a manual.
I am sure GM would say they are just trying to manage risk at the G6 launch - give me a break, many competitors have no problem launching a new vehicle with multiple engines and transmissions.
Grand Prix rebate of $3,500 and Option Allowance of $755 on GT2s. From a MSRP of $27,145 based on a car found in a dealers inventory on GM Buypower.
Your right not everybody can get the max rebate. When my youngest's Daisy Troop leader bought a Vibe recently, they only had $3,499.84 in rebates. My point was that the MSRP of a Grand Prix is less then the sale price of the Accord. With some planning, even less. That is why I started my GM Card info in parentheses. I then just tried to point out that future value retained isn't as important if current purchase price is low. Well that and the numbers just blew me away. ;-)
The GM card can be a great value enhancer. Even has other uses, when I realized a new car was not in our immediate future I let my sister-in-law have my points. Year and a half later, and I can still get a sitter, or help moving furniture with just a phone call ;-)
What MSRP means: Manufacturer's Suggested RETAIL Price. MSRP is exclusive of ANY rebates or incentives.
So the MSRP of the Grand Prix is what it appears as on the window sticker, and that price is certainly NOT less than the selling price of any Accord V6.
Other things being equal, MSRP represents the manufacturers estimate of the price the vehicle would command in the event (very unlikely for most GM products) the demand of the vehicle equaled supply. It is obvious that the Accords MSRP is much closer to the supply/demand equation line than that of the Grand Prix.
Also understood. My point being that without guessing what you can buy a Grand Prix for, the price is less. I sure someone could find a Pontiac dealer willing to sell at MSRP less rebates ;-)
You are right. GM should have had the 2.4L out right away or at least put a 2.0L turbo Ecotec in or something right off the bat if the 2.4 wasn't ready. That said, the 3.5L version will be well priced and gets very good mileage so I'm sure it will sell well regardless.
GM really needs to get it's engine program in gear and have these things ready at launch. It's amazing they still do not seem to get the timing right still.
I think a GT2 with incentives will probably be pretty close in price to a G6 GT. If I was buying this year though, I might have waited for the G6 even though I love my 04 GP.
"GM really needs to get it's engine program in gear and have these things ready at launch. It's amazing they still do not seem to get the timing right still."
Well said. Consistently with each new model all of the engines are not ready. I just do not understand this.
Nav for rental cars would be great. I'd actually prefer to have it in the cars I rent and *not* on the cars I own.
Resale is a big concern for the Pontiac, having lots of rentals hurts it because you have to compete with the local budget rental car place. Rebates hurt it more because then you have to compete with NEW cars.
I hope we don't see G6s falling in price as much as Malibus.
The G6 will fall in price fast just because it does not the the feature content of its biggest competitor, the altima. We will also see that it probably does not have as god an interrior, for now we know its darker than the altima.
No Xenon, no Nav, most young buyers will think its an old car, the 3.9L can only go so far... I just wish they pistal-whipped the UAW so they could afford to budget all of these features into it. it is hard to defend a car that is so obviously lacking.
I wish it weren't, but the UAW need those medical/pension plans, even if their couterparts at nissan don't have them (to this extent).
Pontiac resale has zippo to do with lack of "Nav" or xenon lights. What percentage of Altimas are sold with this toy, 5% maybe??
Resale will be lower because of the Pontiac / GM name, nothing else. It will take some years of good Pontiac products and a cut in fleet sales to pump it up. That said, if G6 quality is good, the car should be much better than other Pontiac models.
The lack of items you consider "deal breakers" like xenon headlights and navigation system appeal to a tiny fragment of the auto buying population. To me, xenons are just a big expense to replace, and the navigation system, well, unless you are a real estate appraiser looking for properties every day, who needs it?
As it has been stated all over these boards, most people wouldn't know overhead cams from man overboard when they buy their car, so the 3.9 isn't an issue.
Most folks get in, punch the gas pedal, and decide whether the car has enough juice to suit them. This car should please 95 percent of them.
The G6 will sink or swim on its merits, and my guess is that it is going to swim as long as it is hammered together right. I intend to test one when they hit the Pontiac stores.
Ask Maxima owners about how many HID thefts they've heard of (or even suffered).
I say just put in good standard headlights.
One test showed the basic lights on a cheap Mazda where better than the HID on the Audi TT. Expensive, stolen often, expensive bulb replacement, and sometimes ineffective. No thanks.
Reliability and assembly quality will play more important roles. Pontiac sells tons of Grand Ams and they'll likely at least try the G6.
Pontiac resale has zippo to do with lack of "Nav" or xenon lights. What percentage of Altimas are sold with this toy, 5% maybe?? Stop the rebates and stop the fleet sales. Then resale will go up steadily.
The resale has allot to do with lack of Nav and Xenon. the % sold with these items is not important, it is the image of the car that these items provide. Older folks and practical people realy don't care, i understand that. But I do, and most of the poeple in my age group (early 20's) do. A car without these available features seems outdated to them, I am a pro-American guy, but my tolerance can only go so far. If our products are the best, it isn't because of our name or our country, its because we offer more and better than the competiton. THats it. It's an image war. Case and point, the Cadillac CTS is usually sold without nav, and yet it has nav and Xenon, and this helps in not considerring it as an old car, and sells very well.
Resale will be lower because of the Pontiac / GM name, nothing else. It will take some years of good Pontiac products and a cut in fleet sales to pump it up. That said, if G6 quality is good, the car should be much better than other Pontiac models.
It has nothing to do with names. You could call a car the pontiac popsickle, and if it has the quality, power, and features its competition can't match, the press will say "the pontiac popsickle licks the industry." In fact, if anything the foreign names should be worse off since the money you spend on your altima, even if its built here, winds up going to a fat cat in Japan.
The lack of items you consider "deal breakers" like xenon headlights and navigation system appeal to a tiny fragment of the auto buying population. To me, xenons are just a big expense to replace, and the navigation system, well, unless you are a real estate appraiser looking for properties every day, who needs it?
Buying population does not matter, these items are like the high SAT score you need to go to a good college, its the cost of admission, if you seek younger buyers. When we look online, we can do a feature by feature comparison, and if the big name, high-tech features are missing, then so is our presence in showrooms.
As it has been stated all over these boards, most people wouldn't know overhead cams from man overboard when they buy their car, so the 3.9 isn't an issue.
That's right, but any people can still count. If the person who does not know jack about OHV or DOHC, they will lok at the power sticker, it says 240hp for G6, yet for 24,000 i can get 250hp from altima. This can be a deciding factor, they can leave the showroom over 10 hp and a higher price without ever taking a testdrive, just because more Hp equals more image. Its the same deal with the xenon and Nav.
I really want the G6 to sell well, and with the coup and hardtop convertable meybe it will. Heck, meybe they will even have a GXP verson that supercharges the 3.9, 300 plus hp anyone??? My point is that is was a trajic mistake for GM not to offer Nav and Xenon as options on this car. and with supply side economics (i think thats what its called) If you offer this option on all of your cars/trucks, then the 5% that will buy them will be a greater number, and each component will cost you less to make. It seems logical but hell, we will see what happenns, as it stands GM has no choice but to modernise, its just doing it slowly for now thats all.
The G6 will sink or swim on its merits, and my guess is that it is going to swim as long as it is hammered together right. I intend to test one when they hit the Pontiac stores.
I agree, please tell us how it went, in fact, if you could test drive a similarly priced altima too, and then tell us the difference, that would be awesome!
We keep bumping into each other. Just saw you on the Altima board a bit ago.
Anyway, Pontiac at this point has elected to make the G6 as affordable as possible, hence the lack of xenons or navigation. We differ on the importance of those options, but in the G6 price range, there are few cars offering them. The only one I can think of is the Acura TSX (or maybe the Altima?), which stickers for a couple thousand more and has a 4-cylinder engine. I don't think I would term their absence from the G6 a tragic mistake.
Like most brands, Pontiac is reserving the xenon/navigation premium style options to its uplevel models.
exalteddragon1 is saying great stuff as usual. And as usual we are not hearing it. Here is insite into the elusive 20something buyer that all the manufacturers are chasing, even to the point of starting new brands. And he perfectly sums up GM's specific (and the "domestic" industry's general)problem----PERCEPTION.
His demographic would never consider a car that didn't have the bling bling (if I used the term correctly, I am over 40 ;-)). Yes the Nav/Xenon cars clear $30K and therefore maynot be affordable, but it shows the manufacturer has its act together and is on the cutting edge. The "Halo" effect the manufacturers aim for (ie Pontiac with the GTO), must exisit on each model line (G6). It is not good enough anymore at the divisional (Pontiac) level.
Another telling clue, it the revelation that they will walk over 10hp. I have talked with Pontiac people who have had to defend the 5hp difference between the Grand Prix GTP and the Maxima.
Its all about perception. Ask anyone the perception of the quality with the Grand Am. Bet they don't think it is that high. Yet one of Lansing plants were they were built were Gold or Silver in 2001 and 2002 in JD Power's North AMerican Plant Quality Suvery results. Even Pontiac acknowledges the perception issue by dropping the Grand Am name.
In 2004 it is not good enough to be good, people must think you are good. And that can take years, and even a name change.
And even though those of us in our 40s and 50s rode the first wave of quality differences between "domestic" and "imported", the feeling is even stronger in the younger generations that the "domestic" brands are no good.
What makes exalteddragon1's posts so interesting is his insight in the background issues.
The quality on the Malibu is good so I suspect G6 will be the same. If the G6 had an H on the hood the resale would instantly be better, I guarantee it. Pontiac is a GM domestic name and hence gets less, fact of life right now.
As for the toys, it may attract you to the car, but reality is people don't buy for xenon and navs, they buy for reliability, utility and value. xenons can be added and navs are pure toys for most people. They add virtually zippo to sales.
As for toys, the G6 brings other things like that cool sun roof and remote starter which no one else offers so G6 brings something to the table anyway.
While I agree the engine availablity is an issue, people don't buy a car simply for 10 hp more. If that was the case, people would be buying GTPs with 260hp over Altimas.
If I like a car I will buy it, even if it does not have xenons. What I mean is that it would not be a deciding factor. And to me a Nav system is a waste of money. I never seem to have a problem using a map. I will say however, that the CTS-V I drove had the Nav and it was pretty cool to use.
The pricing was just released....base GT is 23,000 and change. I haven't seen the base list, but this seems like a pretty good deal. The car looks like a vast improvement in comparison to the 99 GA my wife is driving. The name is definitley an improvement and an attempt to bring in younger drivers (i.e. the 20 something new grads of new college students). I really hope that Pontiac does improve their reliability and build quality. This is their atttempt to steal people from the foreign vehicle market. The navigation should be an option on the upper level models. Xenon headlights are an expensive option that isn't that good of a deal. The Lexus SUVs have them and there is no diffenece when compared head to head with my 02 Sierra. It is actually humerous when the owner of the Lexus saw this. He said that he paid over $900 for this option. I live in a rural area (patroled by underfunded sheriffs) and the xenon headlights are being stolen and resold. People don't look to the small-size cars for these upscale options. They look to Buick, Cadillac and the bigger Pontiacs for these options. I just hope this model will get Pontiac out of the "fleet" status. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next 9-12 months after they first hit the lots.
Comments
(From other good points made recently here)
I've actually had this experience (back when Oldsmobile was testing Guidestar in the SF Bay area back in early '97) and it was great. Was nice for my wife, who didn't know the Bay Area - could just drop me off where I needed to be, and go all over (programming destinations in before she left) - and I didn't worry.
Wouldn't care for Nav on a daily basis (I have AAA and can use MapQuest like anyone else). If I traveled extensively to areas where I didn't know my way around, I'd consider getting something like a Garmin StreetPilot, which could be taken/put into any vehicle that I needed to travel in, not just fixed inside one vehicle...
I didn't realize main g6 production had started?
Doesn't do anything for me....
Good Luck!
Im sure GM would be very pleased if most were reminded of the Passat on seeing the G6.
~alpha
The best value in the midsize V-6 segment now is the Accord EX-V6. You can buy 'em for about $23.5, loaded with leather, side curtain airbags and satellite radio. That is a hard target for the G6 to hit.
Also, like alpha says, let's give the G6 a chance before ragging all over it. Personally, I like the old-tech V-6. It puts out a ton of torque, which I use much more often than top end power.
Yesh, nothing like it at all.
It took the Accord years and years to get to where it is. Unlikely GM or Nissan will get there any time soon.
A 2005 G6 V6 will sticker right around $23,500 with leather, sunroof, XM and curtains.
I think once we get to see all the numbers & info and touch & drive the G6 it will look much better, as you point out.
Grand Prix GT2: $24,975
Add Side Curtains (but where are the seat mounted chest protection airbags like the CamCords have?), Sunroof, Leather Trim Pkg, and XM.
$27,385
-$4000
---------
$23,385
(Im pretty sure thats a standard 4000 across the USA...)
I guess thats a decent value, but Id much prefer the Accord EX V6 personally. Actually, Id rather have a Camry SE V6, Im a fan of the styling revisions for 2005, interior upgrades, the availability of Vehicle Skid Control, and a good deal more torque than either the normally aspirated GP or the Accord (with 240 foot pounds at a low 3600 RPM).
~alpha
Does anyone know is the prices for all of the options have been released yet?
Is the steering adjusted from that of the Malibu to give the G6 a more sporty feel?
Personnally I think it is a real blunder on the part of GM (not surprising though) not to have the other two engine choices (2.4 and 3.9) available at launch. What a missed opportunity to steal sales from the imports. Really no excuse not to have the 2.4 ready to compete with the lower end Altima and Accord and Camry. Also, need a manual as an option - yeah I know the market is small for these but heck this is supposed to be the excitement division and some buyers will not even look at a sporty car without a manual.
I am sure GM would say they are just trying to manage risk at the G6 launch - give me a break, many competitors have no problem launching a new vehicle with multiple engines and transmissions.
Oh well, that is my rant for now.
Your right not everybody can get the max rebate. When my youngest's Daisy Troop leader bought a Vibe recently, they only had $3,499.84 in rebates. My point was that the MSRP of a Grand Prix is less then the sale price of the Accord. With some planning, even less. That is why I started my GM Card info in parentheses. I then just tried to point out that future value retained isn't as important if current purchase price is low. Well that and the numbers just blew me away. ;-)
The GM card can be a great value enhancer. Even has other uses, when I realized a new car was not in our immediate future I let my sister-in-law have my points. Year and a half later, and I can still get a sitter, or help moving furniture with just a phone call ;-)
So the MSRP of the Grand Prix is what it appears as on the window sticker, and that price is certainly NOT less than the selling price of any Accord V6.
Other things being equal, MSRP represents the manufacturers estimate of the price the vehicle would command in the event (very unlikely for most GM products) the demand of the vehicle equaled supply. It is obvious that the Accords MSRP is much closer to the supply/demand equation line than that of the Grand Prix.
~alpha
~alpha
GM really needs to get it's engine program in gear and have these things ready at launch. It's amazing they still do not seem to get the timing right still.
I think a GT2 with incentives will probably be pretty close in price to a G6 GT. If I was buying this year though, I might have waited for the G6 even though I love my 04 GP.
Well said. Consistently with each new model all of the engines are not ready. I just do not understand this.
Resale is a big concern for the Pontiac, having lots of rentals hurts it because you have to compete with the local budget rental car place. Rebates hurt it more because then you have to compete with NEW cars.
I hope we don't see G6s falling in price as much as Malibus.
-juice
The G6 will fall in price fast just because it does not the the feature content of its biggest competitor, the altima. We will also see that it probably does not have as god an interrior, for now we know its darker than the altima.
No Xenon, no Nav, most young buyers will think its an old car, the 3.9L can only go so far... I just wish they pistal-whipped the UAW so they could afford to budget all of these features into it. it is hard to defend a car that is so obviously lacking.
I wish it weren't, but the UAW need those medical/pension plans, even if their couterparts at nissan don't have them (to this extent).
Resale will be lower because of the Pontiac / GM name, nothing else. It will take some years of good Pontiac products and a cut in fleet sales to pump it up. That said, if G6 quality is good, the car should be much better than other Pontiac models.
-juice
As it has been stated all over these boards, most people wouldn't know overhead cams from man overboard when they buy their car, so the 3.9 isn't an issue.
Most folks get in, punch the gas pedal, and decide whether the car has enough juice to suit them. This car should please 95 percent of them.
The G6 will sink or swim on its merits, and my guess is that it is going to swim as long as it is hammered together right. I intend to test one when they hit the Pontiac stores.
I say just put in good standard headlights.
One test showed the basic lights on a cheap Mazda where better than the HID on the Audi TT. Expensive, stolen often, expensive bulb replacement, and sometimes ineffective. No thanks.
Reliability and assembly quality will play more important roles. Pontiac sells tons of Grand Ams and they'll likely at least try the G6.
-juice
G6 fixes that and the new engines and platform should make it very competitive.
-juice
Pontiac resale has zippo to do with lack of "Nav" or xenon lights. What percentage of Altimas are sold with this toy, 5% maybe??
Stop the rebates and stop the fleet sales. Then resale will go up steadily.
The resale has allot to do with lack of Nav and Xenon. the % sold with these items is not important, it is the image of the car that these items provide. Older folks and practical people realy don't care, i understand that. But I do, and most of the poeple in my age group (early 20's) do. A car without these available features seems outdated to them, I am a pro-American guy, but my tolerance can only go so far. If our products are the best, it isn't because of our name or our country, its because we offer more and better than the competiton. THats it. It's an image war. Case and point, the Cadillac CTS is usually sold without nav, and yet it has nav and Xenon, and this helps in not considerring it as an old car, and sells very well.
Resale will be lower because of the Pontiac / GM name, nothing else. It will take some years of good Pontiac products and a cut in fleet sales to pump it up. That said, if G6 quality is good, the car should be much better than other Pontiac models.
It has nothing to do with names. You could call a car the pontiac popsickle, and if it has the quality, power, and features its competition can't match, the press will say "the pontiac popsickle licks the industry." In fact, if anything the foreign names should be worse off since the money you spend on your altima, even if its built here, winds up going to a fat cat in Japan.
The lack of items you consider "deal breakers" like xenon headlights and navigation system appeal to a tiny fragment of the auto buying population. To me, xenons are just a big expense to replace, and the navigation system, well, unless you are a real estate appraiser looking for properties every day, who needs it?
Buying population does not matter, these items are like the high SAT score you need to go to a good college, its the cost of admission, if you seek younger buyers. When we look online, we can do a feature by feature comparison, and if the big name, high-tech features are missing, then so is our presence in showrooms.
As it has been stated all over these boards, most people wouldn't know overhead cams from man overboard when they buy their car, so the 3.9 isn't an issue.
That's right, but any people can still count. If the person who does not know jack about OHV or DOHC, they will lok at the power sticker, it says 240hp for G6, yet for 24,000 i can get 250hp from altima. This can be a deciding factor, they can leave the showroom over 10 hp and a higher price without ever taking a testdrive, just because more Hp equals more image. Its the same deal with the xenon and Nav.
I really want the G6 to sell well, and with the coup and hardtop convertable meybe it will. Heck, meybe they will even have a GXP verson that supercharges the 3.9, 300 plus hp anyone??? My point is that is was a trajic mistake for GM not to offer Nav and Xenon as options on this car. and with supply side economics (i think thats what its called) If you offer this option on all of your cars/trucks, then the 5% that will buy them will be a greater number, and each component will cost you less to make. It seems logical but hell, we will see what happenns, as it stands GM has no choice but to modernise, its just doing it slowly for now thats all.
The G6 will sink or swim on its merits, and my guess is that it is going to swim as long as it is hammered together right. I intend to test one when they hit the Pontiac stores.
I agree, please tell us how it went, in fact, if you could test drive a similarly priced altima too, and then tell us the difference, that would be awesome!
Anyway, Pontiac at this point has elected to make the G6 as affordable as possible, hence the lack of xenons or navigation. We differ on the importance of those options, but in the G6 price range, there are few cars offering them. The only one I can think of is the Acura TSX (or maybe the Altima?), which stickers for a couple thousand more and has a 4-cylinder engine. I don't think I would term their absence from the G6 a tragic mistake.
Like most brands, Pontiac is reserving the xenon/navigation premium style options to its uplevel models.
His demographic would never consider a car that didn't have the bling bling (if I used the term correctly, I am over 40 ;-)). Yes the Nav/Xenon cars clear $30K and therefore maynot be affordable, but it shows the manufacturer has its act together and is on the cutting edge. The "Halo" effect the manufacturers aim for (ie Pontiac with the GTO), must exisit on each model line (G6). It is not good enough anymore at the divisional (Pontiac) level.
Another telling clue, it the revelation that they will walk over 10hp. I have talked with Pontiac people who have had to defend the 5hp difference between the Grand Prix GTP and the Maxima.
Its all about perception. Ask anyone the perception of the quality with the Grand Am. Bet they don't think it is that high. Yet one of Lansing plants were they were built were Gold or Silver in 2001 and 2002 in JD Power's North AMerican Plant Quality Suvery results. Even Pontiac acknowledges the perception issue by dropping the Grand Am name.
In 2004 it is not good enough to be good, people must think you are good. And that can take years, and even a name change.
And even though those of us in our 40s and 50s rode the first wave of quality differences between "domestic" and "imported", the feeling is even stronger in the younger generations that the "domestic" brands are no good.
What makes exalteddragon1's posts so interesting is his insight in the background issues.
As for the toys, it may attract you to the car, but reality is people don't buy for xenon and navs, they buy for reliability, utility and value. xenons can be added and navs are pure toys for most people. They add virtually zippo to sales.
As for toys, the G6 brings other things like that cool sun roof and remote starter which no one else offers so G6 brings something to the table anyway.
While I agree the engine availablity is an issue, people don't buy a car simply for 10 hp more. If that was the case, people would be buying GTPs with 260hp over Altimas.
option for the G6. The '05 Vibe has it as an
option.