reliability ratings and road tests (evaluation) are separate entities.
a car can perform great in their road tests and not be recommended if it has sub par reliability (lot of german cars fall in this category).
the new malibu did well in consumer report's road test (the Max will be reviewed next month and it will probably do well too) but it's not recommended because of reliability. the new malibu is no different than other cars in its first year. the accord and camry in their first year also took a hit but not to the point of being below average though.
i like to know where consumer reports states that every toyota in the lineup is superior in its class?
you say their surveys are flawed but don't elaborate on it. fine. their road test evaluations are based on their judgments which you may or may not agree with. but, with exceptions, their road test evaluations pretty much mirrors findings from other publications - GM sedans don't do as well as those from toyota and honda.
i do agree with your premise though. don't dismiss a car because CR doesn't recommend it unless it does really bad reliability wise (like the first years of the ford focus). because for the most part, cars fall in the 98-100% in terms of reliability and it seems silly not to consider a car becuase it may be at the low end of that range.
i believe CR will have a road test of the G6 in addition to the max in the next issue.
Did you read the explanation of the reliability tables? Probably not. Its all explained, right there in the text of either the Buying Guide issue or the April Auto issue.
Consumer Reports does not assign reliability ratings to vehicles... the people who respond to its surveys do. And for what its worth, the Ford Focus is one of CR's best performing small car models, and recently earned a recommendation because its reliability improved after the first few years.
It doesn't matter. It still makes as much as saying that 5+6 equals 3. I am well aware that Consumer Reports uses surveys, but I did say that the surveys were oversimplified and misleading. And just because they don't rate everything themselves does not mean they aren't slanted. It's just a bunch of libel.
As for their recommendation of a few domestic vehicles, what does it matter? My point is that domestic cars that will run without trouble for years are given low ratings, and the ENTIRE TOYOTA LINEUP is reccomended. Sure most of them may be good cars, but is everything they make superior? I am only saying don't treat the rubbish they spew like it is sacred text. It's not.
And that's only a heads-up for people interested in the G6 or other cars CR has given low ratings.
Consumer reports data is and always has been flawed. They base it heavily on surveys done only from their readers who are more likely to be buying only CR recommended products. My personal experiences with cars, trucks, appliances haven't matched CR data all that well.
"If thats the case, how does CR get information on lower scoring models like the Chevy Cavalier, Saturn Ion, Pontiac Grand Prix etc?"
For one thing, I thought the Grand Prix was one of the American models they gave a high rating, along with the Buick Regal. As for whee they get their information, it doesn't matter. It's flawed. As ocmike3 said, a lot of the surveys are filled by people who think CR is the Bible for anyone buying anything. Not only that but the surveys themselves have problems. They ask you if you've experienced a problem, but they don't define a problem as something extremely minor, or as something major. And that's just for starters...
Most of Toyota and Honda's lineup is dynamically superior to that of GM, definitely.
I dont treat CR as sacred text, but it is one source of valid information. If you look at the information published by JD Power for 3 and 5 year long term dependability, you will find that the lists for the most reliable makes and models are the same as those on CR's. The way I see it, both shoot from cuff. When models arent reliable, its reflected in the data. And I dont really see a bias against any make. Check out Nissans recent reliability ratings in CR. They arent nearly what they used to be, especially the Armada, Quest, and Sentra which receive full or partial black dots. Also of note is that in last year's CR Auto Issue, the MOST reliable sedan was the Buick Regal, and this was highlighted.
Personally, I wouldnt NOT purchase a vehicle because it got a low reliability rating. However, on the whole, the fact remains that the domestics still are not at the levels of Toyota/Honda in terms of reliability. And Toyota/Honda are not without fault.
I still recommend reading the explanation of the tables. It doesnt make good sense to go into an argument without having a basis for the debate.
I didn't want to start and O/T argument. What I am trying to say goes beyond a few simple problems with CR. Toyota and Honda are altogether overrated. No, I am not saying that they are junk boxes- at least not nearly all of them. This isn't about other Japanese makes. What I am saying is a Toyota (or Honda) isn't going to drive you to Moon and back 48 times, and a domestic isn't going to automatically blowup at 10 miles. This bloated reputation gives them strong sales with high prices and few incentives. They obviously benefit from that a great deal. The bottom line is that there are a few exceptions on both sides, but there is no reason to say that the playing ground isn't very level.
Now if we could return to actually discussing the G6, that would be appreciated.
Motor Trend said in their COTY issue that there will eventually be a G6 coupe replacing the Grand Am. Has that been confirmed? Does anyone have an idea of when it's scheduled to debut?
I still read CR but I don't pay much attention to their reliability ratings. Their ratings have been the exact opposite of 4 out of 5 cars I've had. (My Toyota truck broke often, as did my Saturn -- both have high reliability ratings from CR. My Jetta had only one minor problem and my Ranger has been flawless, not what one would expect after reading CR.) And, is it just me, or are the people who answer their survey's biased? Cars that are twins but sold by different manufactures can have different ratings, even though they are almost identical except for their badges? For example, the Mazda Truck is rated more reliable than the identical Ford Ranger. Is this because people expect a Ford to break more so they are more critical when they answer the survey? Or is it due to the smaller sample size of the Mazda vs. Ford. I'll have to look up the Matrix vs. Vibe to see if it holds true in that case also.
The reasoning I'm posting really, is to say that I saw my first G6 on the road today. It was pretty cool looking, well, what I saw if it was at least. It flew by me pretty fast -- I tried to catch up but didn't feel like flinging the groceries around the back seat. I would like to see more of them on the road, as I think they will help change people's minds about domestic cars.
like i said, most cars fall in the 98-100 percentage range of reliability. unless a car does really really bad in CR reliability surveys, i pay much more attention to their road tests.
where i still see a significant gap among cars is in their design. IMO, a passat or an accord are clearly a step above the G6 in this regard.
I don't like the way they weigh reliability ratings. The 04 Mazda 6 got all red marks for each trouble spot area and CR declared below average reliability. How is that? They did the same with the RX-8. In comparison CR downgraded the reliability rating for the new Acura TL to average but the TL had average a white circle for body integrity while the 04 Mazda 6 had all read marks and was marked under average reliability. what? The 03 Honda Accord had a white circle for body integrity as well but was given a red check mark meaning above average reliability. For the record I like the looks of the TL, 6 and RX-8 so I am not biased but I;m just wondering whats up on how they weigh each reliability trouble spot?
With Nissan the Armada, and Quest had some black dots so I understand how they would mark way bleow average reliablity and on top of that Nissan has had lots of problems with build quality with their new new truck plant in Mississippi.
Getting back to the G6(yes we will talk about the G6 now) I like the look of it for the mid-size class anyway. Its sleek but not boring looking and not overstyled. GM finally styled a winner with Pontiac. As for not seeing any G6's its Christmas time who's buying a car at Christmas time anyway? Most people are shopping for presents for their family members. I have seen at least 7-10 G6's in Jersey.
CR uses a few other sources, but uses their own twists on the subject. Here's an article that sums it up pretty good: to Quote: "It is flawed in two ways. First, it depends on owner reports that are not objectively reliable, and from a sample that, despite its overall size, may not be geographically or demographically balanced and further may understate reality. If people like a car, or believe it is supposed to be great despite their own experience, they simply may not report a problem and therefore it doesn't pop up on CU's radar screen. The issue is actual repairs versus reported repairs."
The G6 has style, both inside and out for Pontiac, and hopefully they'll use this kind of less-is-more philosphy when resknning their other models. (will they go euro and have G3's, G9's, etc? I hope not!) I dind't find its V6 as nearly as refined in sound or performance as the Mazda6 S. The G6 also felt much heavier (is it?) and bit less nimble in corners. I guess I was hoping for a bit more from Pontiac, since the Accord and Mazda6 are now several years old, they'll likely be replaced before the G6. Does anybody know if a better engine option is on the horizon for the G6? 200HP for 3.5L displacement is really kinda sad:
Carguy- you need to read the explanation of how the reliability tables are constucted. For the predicted reliability rating, the tables are compared to what CR calls "The Average Vehicle" table. And some items, as you noted, are weighed more heavily. This is all explained in the April Auto issue text.
And while I realize the information isnt perfect, I dont know of any source thats better. JD Power is even less scientific, if you ask me, but nonetheless, the two publications are the only ones besides word of mouth that gauge reliability. And in most cases (I'm talking longer-term, not initial quality) the two ratings are very similar.
dieselg4..... all though torque is listed as "lb-ft" you would say "foot-pounds" in speaking of it, not "pound-feet". Just a tech jargon FYI.
Just thinking about leasing A 6, Someone a few posts ago just said they did. What is your payment for your GT. We do have the GMS price, what were your terms and conditions?
Can't comment on that but I did see an article that mentioned the flexibility of that electric power steering system to allow different calibrations. If I remember where I will let you know.....
I also have seen that the GTP model for 2006 will use a hydraulic power steering system instead of electric power steering system.
Just bought G6GT red/neutral cloth with SMALL sunroof package (PCH - includes chrome wheels, OnStar, and 6-CD), plus remote start and front license plate bracket for $22,919 cash including doc fee, tag, and title out the door with no trade-in (at Jones Pontiac, Sumter SC). Edmunds suggests invoice on this car is about $23,300.
Doh! Sorry, the sales tax is additional $300. As far as I know, in SC the sales tax is CAPPED at $300 on all vehicle sales, regardless of value. I assumed the sales guy would bring my initial offer of $22,800 AT LEAST up to invoice territory, but it was accepted plus $69 doc/dealer prep plus $50 for tag and title. There was no way I was going to trade in my still great '97 Grand Am to only get $2K for it!!
CT collects 6% sale tax from full amount, excluding trade-in, but including GM rebates and GM card rebates.
For example, MSRP $31,000, dealer deal $28,000, trade in $2000, makes $26,000. $3500 GM rebates and $3000 GM card rebates reduces price to $19,500 before fees, title, and license plates; however, the sale tax is still $1560 - 6% from $26,000.
My wife and I bought a leftover 2004 Buick Regal GS about 2-3 weeks ago. Loaded demo, with 6,800 miles; however, dealer added 60 months / 60,000 miles GM warranty (Major Guard) essentially for free to compensate for the mileage. The prices and taxes were close to the above amount.
Over the past 2 weeks I had to travel 4 times between NJ and Wash DC. I like checking out new cars as I drive. I saw 1 or 2 G6's. I spotted 12 - 15 Ford 500s and a couple of Hyundai Tuscons. I sat in a G6 in the showroom. Seemed to be comfortable, but everything felt kind of chintzy. Sticker price was around $27k. Other than the fancy moon roof, nothing else really stood out. Don't take my next comment the wrong way, but I think all the Pontiacs are too rounded and look like "girl's cars". Pontiac needs to give them a bit of macho by chopping off the roundness ala Cadillac, Altima or even Acura TL. I have an 04 Grand Prix and like it very much.
Re: Conumers Reports, I take their suveys with a grain of salt and understand that most is subjective opinion.
Personally, I also prefer not very round shape. I like 87-95 Taurus, do not like 96-99(?) ones, with 2000-2004(?) looking better for my mind. Like Buick Regal (97-2004 and even more the previous model), and do not like LaCrosse. Am not attracted to Audi/Passat, etc.
However, too boxy shapes also are not attractive. For example, most of 1990-s Volvo.
Any case, I do not think the difference in tastes is between boys and girls. At least, my wife shares my tastes.
they base it 8.25% of final sales price,on another note I saw my first G6 today and untill i saw the bagde i would have never guessed a pontiac, has a good profile, if anybody can answer a few?'s
Is there a 4cyl offered-
if not what G6 is considered entry level-
What size is the v6-
anybody know how it places with insurance rating? In the chicago area how much do you think I could get a decently equipped one for? thanks
You can find most of answers on Edmunds, under "New Cars". Engine displacement(s), power, etc., MSRP, invoice price and even the estimated street prices, named "TVM" on Edmunds.
For insurance rates it is better to call your insurance company: the rate depends very much on your zip code, age, driving history, and in many states even on your credit history. Given this is a new car, I'd expect the insurance rates to be close to GrandAm's ones for the same person.
I sat in a G6 over the weekend, but did not test drive one. I thought the dash materials were pretty good for GM, and on par with the competition. I have only seen one G6 on the road so far, and the dealership I visited had a lot to choose from and all with the GM Red Tag Sale.
G6 is a big step forward for GM in sedan offerings, though I thought the g6 was a larger car, from my understanding they will have aGTP mdel next summer, and also offer a 4Cyl. dont know whay they waited to add engine choices. Sean
Thank you! This is only $12,600 including tax and, probably, interest. Or about $11,900 excluding the 6% tax. Either you put big downpayment / trade-in, or the price is very sweet.
While purchasing my new GTO yesterday I checked out a black G6 with chrome wheels that looked very sharp, certainly nicer styling then anything else in it's class.
I'm considering a G6 in Granite Metallic. It looks like you can get the Taupe interior. Anyone have this combo? I'm just looking for something a bit different than the Ebony / Grey interior.
Also, I can't swing the cast wheels. How do the standard wheel covers look on the car?
I have recently purchased a G6 and I am already having problems with the six-disc changer. It currently will not play or eject the cd's that are in the player. Now in the morning my car battery is dead because the changer is always running...trying to kick out the cd's. Any ideas of what I can do?
If it is in the truck check the back of the changer and unplug the cords if possible. This should de-power the unit. If it is an in-dash player remove the fuse for the radio head and drive to the nearest dealership. Most often the in trunk changers tend to be aftermaket and are installed by dealers or other local companies. If you bought the car with the changer already I would start at the dealership.
It is an in-dash player. I sure will try and pull the fuse and make an appointment but I was trying to avoid that by fixing it myself. But I have heard that aftermarket players are put in and I can hardly understand that but...who knows. Do you know what causes the cd's to jam or not eject?
The cds being jammed could just simply be that a cd got out of track due to a severe jolt on the road or as complex as the entire head unit needs to be replaced. Just check the owners manual and see what else is connected to the fuse. You may want to reinsert before driving since multiple items of cars are connected to the fuse. Also pull the fuse while the car is completely turned off. This will prevent any power jump from effecting the electrical equipment. I wish you luck, although you should have a warranty that should cover the whole experience.
Has anyone read the recent issue of Consumer Reports where they compared some 4 cyl to 6 cyl family sedans. They liked the remote start-up, but not too much else about G6. I personally take CR with a grain of salt, but many use it as their Bible in selecting a car. The Malibu, which is similar got a much better review.
I get a daily on-line update from CarConnection. Today they mentioned the G6 2 door and convertible that will be introduced. But they referred to the G6 as a "compact car", where I thought it was an intermediate.
I may sound like a dumb blonde but do I call the dealer I got it from and refer to the number you have listed? Or can I look this document up online somewhere?
Comments
This is the 3.4L pushrod V-6 by the way.
a car can perform great in their road tests and not be recommended if it has sub par reliability (lot of german cars fall in this category).
the new malibu did well in consumer report's road test (the Max will be reviewed next month and it will probably do well too) but it's not recommended because of reliability. the new malibu is no different than other cars in its first year. the accord and camry in their first year also took a hit but not to the point of being below average though.
i like to know where consumer reports states that every toyota in the lineup is superior in its class?
you say their surveys are flawed but don't elaborate on it. fine. their road test evaluations are based on their judgments which you may or may not agree with. but, with exceptions, their road test evaluations pretty much mirrors findings from other publications - GM sedans don't do as well as those from toyota and honda.
i do agree with your premise though. don't dismiss a car because CR doesn't recommend it unless it does really bad reliability wise (like the first years of the ford focus). because for the most part, cars fall in the 98-100% in terms of reliability and it seems silly not to consider a car becuase it may be at the low end of that range.
i believe CR will have a road test of the G6 in addition to the max in the next issue.
Consumer Reports does not assign reliability ratings to vehicles... the people who respond to its surveys do. And for what its worth, the Ford Focus is one of CR's best performing small car models, and recently earned a recommendation because its reliability improved after the first few years.
~alpha
As for their recommendation of a few domestic vehicles, what does it matter? My point is that domestic cars that will run without trouble for years are given low ratings, and the ENTIRE TOYOTA LINEUP is reccomended. Sure most of them may be good cars, but is everything they make superior? I am only saying don't treat the rubbish they spew like it is sacred text. It's not.
And that's only a heads-up for people interested in the G6 or other cars CR has given low ratings.
The Sandman :-)
~alpha
For one thing, I thought the Grand Prix was one of the American models they gave a high rating, along with the Buick Regal. As for whee they get their information, it doesn't matter. It's flawed. As ocmike3 said, a lot of the surveys are filled by people who think CR is the Bible for anyone buying anything. Not only that but the surveys themselves have problems. They ask you if you've experienced a problem, but they don't define a problem as something extremely minor, or as something major. And that's just for starters...
I dont treat CR as sacred text, but it is one source of valid information. If you look at the information published by JD Power for 3 and 5 year long term dependability, you will find that the lists for the most reliable makes and models are the same as those on CR's. The way I see it, both shoot from cuff. When models arent reliable, its reflected in the data. And I dont really see a bias against any make. Check out Nissans recent reliability ratings in CR. They arent nearly what they used to be, especially the Armada, Quest, and Sentra which receive full or partial black dots. Also of note is that in last year's CR Auto Issue, the MOST reliable sedan was the Buick Regal, and this was highlighted.
Personally, I wouldnt NOT purchase a vehicle because it got a low reliability rating. However, on the whole, the fact remains that the domestics still are not at the levels of Toyota/Honda in terms of reliability. And Toyota/Honda are not without fault.
I still recommend reading the explanation of the tables. It doesnt make good sense to go into an argument without having a basis for the debate.
~alpha
Now if we could return to actually discussing the G6, that would be appreciated.
Motor Trend said in their COTY issue that there will eventually be a G6 coupe replacing the Grand Am. Has that been confirmed? Does anyone have an idea of when it's scheduled to debut?
Agreed!! And thanks!
The reasoning I'm posting really, is to say that I saw my first G6 on the road today. It was pretty cool looking, well, what I saw if it was at least. It flew by me pretty fast -- I tried to catch up but didn't feel like flinging the groceries around the back seat. I would like to see more of them on the road, as I think they will help change people's minds about domestic cars.
~alpha
where i still see a significant gap among cars is in their design. IMO, a passat or an accord are clearly a step above the G6 in this regard.
sorry pat, i couldn't resist!
With Nissan the Armada, and Quest had some black dots so I understand how they would mark way bleow average reliablity and on top of that Nissan has had lots of problems with build quality with their new new truck plant in Mississippi.
Getting back to the G6(yes we will talk about the G6 now) I like the look of it for the mid-size class anyway. Its sleek but not boring looking and not overstyled. GM finally styled a winner with Pontiac. As for not seeing any G6's its Christmas time who's buying a car at Christmas time anyway? Most people are shopping for presents for their family members. I have seen at least 7-10 G6's in Jersey.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4733
The G6 is a huge step forward for Pontiac. Even though the interior and exterior could be a bit more exciting, I find it very clean and competitive.
Honda Accord LV V6 3.0L 240HP/212PF
Ford 500 3.0L 203HP/207PF
Intrepid SE 2.7L 200HP/190PF
Mazda 6 S 3.0L 220HP/192PF
Its a good car, its just not a GREAT car, IMO.
And while I realize the information isnt perfect, I dont know of any source thats better. JD Power is even less scientific, if you ask me, but nonetheless, the two publications are the only ones besides word of mouth that gauge reliability. And in most cases (I'm talking longer-term, not initial quality) the two ratings are very similar.
dieselg4..... all though torque is listed as "lb-ft" you would say "foot-pounds" in speaking of it, not "pound-feet". Just a tech jargon FYI.
~alpha
I also have seen that the GTP model for 2006 will use a hydraulic power steering system instead of electric power steering system.
CT collects 6% sale tax from full amount, excluding trade-in, but including GM rebates and GM card rebates.
For example, MSRP $31,000, dealer deal $28,000, trade in $2000, makes $26,000. $3500 GM rebates and $3000 GM card rebates reduces price to $19,500 before fees, title, and license plates; however, the sale tax is still $1560 - 6% from $26,000.
My wife and I bought a leftover 2004 Buick Regal GS about 2-3 weeks ago. Loaded demo, with 6,800 miles; however, dealer added 60 months / 60,000 miles GM warranty (Major Guard) essentially for free to compensate for the mileage. The prices and taxes were close to the above amount.
Re: Conumers Reports, I take their suveys with a grain of salt and understand that most is subjective opinion.
However, too boxy shapes also are not attractive. For example, most of 1990-s Volvo.
Any case, I do not think the difference in tastes is between boys and girls. At least, my wife shares my tastes.
BTW, do you own 2004 Gran Prix or 99 Regal LS?
Is there a 4cyl offered-
if not what G6 is considered entry level-
What size is the v6-
anybody know how it places with insurance rating? In the chicago area how much do you think I could get a decently equipped one for? thanks
For insurance rates it is better to call your insurance company: the rate depends very much on your zip code, age, driving history, and in many states even on your credit history. Given this is a new car, I'd expect the insurance rates to be close to GrandAm's ones for the same person.
This dealer also had a lot of Grand Ams too.
I pay about $350 a month including tax (6%). The car is a loaded GT without the panoramic sunroof.
I probably got worked - I think that they could have come down a little more.
BUT - did I say - I love it - had it three months and it is still putting a smile on my face.
Are the grills actually steel mesh?
Also, I can't swing the cast wheels. How do the standard wheel covers look on the car?
#04111
I get a daily on-line update from CarConnection. Today they mentioned the G6 2 door and convertible that will be introduced. But they referred to the G6 as a "compact car", where I thought it was an intermediate.