Documentation Fees

lrguy44

If you do not accept a Doc Fee itemized even if you have negotiated it away, you will not be able to buy a car in most states as Joel so eloquently explained. An ADM is BS in most cases, the exception being a special vehicle that is selling above MSRP.

euphonium

Joel's post said to me "a few years ago had the FTC come in there dealerships, do a full audit and required them to send checks for the DOC amount to every customer they ever charged it to for (I belive) the last 3 years.. They found a paper trail of some paying and some not.

How does the above support mandatory DOC charges by dealerships when in GA, the fees were deemed by the FTC to be returned to each customer?

I also resent "Enviornmental Fees" that are charged for cleansing the greasy mechanics overalls and rags. :sick:

lrguy44

Because they did not charge all customers it was deemed to be discriminitory. So, charge one, charge all.

joel0622

Two different discussions. You are saying that the dealer cannot claim the charges are mandatory in the sense they are forced to charge them in the first place. A dealer does not have to charge a DOC, but if they choose to do so they must be uniform and consistent.

euphonium

As we are not all equal, Discrimination is to be honored. For example, the policyholder buying Health Insurance should have to pay more for his previous reckless lifestyle of smoking, overeating, underexcersizing, adverse preexisting conditions & over boozing.

Same for the car insurance industry. Poor driving records, poor credit ratings, & poor physical health applicants are to be charged more.

Discrimination rewards the clean living Conservative and why not?

Regarding DOC's, the dealer should have his freedom to choose who he tries to charge and should not be forced to treat all equally. It is his business decision.

tallman1

Regarding DOC's, the dealer should have his freedom to choose who he tries to charge and should not be forced to treat all equally. It is his business decision.

I believe what some here are trying to say is that a dealer may indeed give discounts and "deal" with customers, thereby allowing different prices for the same car. What a dealer CANNOT do (at least in some states) is show a doc fee (or any other fee) on the paperwork to some and not for others.

In other words, a sale price can be different but the associated fees have to be charged equally. That's why if you "deal" away the doc fee, the salesperson will take it off the purchase price of the car but the paperwork will still show the charge.

Do I have that right, salesfolks??

lrguy44

You got that right. There was a big class action several years ago claiming racial discrimination on finance rates - i.e. minorities paid higher interest on cars. I wonder f they gave any credence to credit worthiness.

imidazol97

> I wonder f they gave any credence to credit worthiness.

No.

The same lack of comparative credit worthiness is ignored in home mortgage data in the past years and the resulting data used to show bias in lending. Same thing has happened in cars. The groups who want to try to prove their point use the data which is not correctly interpreted.

joel0622

True, I can prove any point you want me to if you let me interpret the data the way I see fit lol

counselor4444

I'm a tad confused.... from reading above am I to understand that you can negotiate and get rid of the documentation fee? what are those fees usually for?

TIA!

euphonium

Simple. Issue your check in the amount you are willing to pay. The seller can take it or leave it. In these times of the economy, he'll take it.

The label,"Additional Dealer Profit" has been replaced with "Doc fee". Both BS.

joel0622

Offer an OTD price. The consumer should care less if the DOC is $3000 as long as the OTD is what they are willing to pay.

Our DOC is $75 on A/X/Z/D plans and $375 on regular retail deals. I have maybe 5 people at the most balk at it in a months time. out of an average of 150 deals a month that is really nothing. I think part of the reason is because on our buyers orders in black bold letters it says it is to recover admin cost and it is profit. If ou are upfront and just tell people it is extra profit they usually say, oh ok, and thats the end of it.

lrguy44

Ours is $199 and since we are much lower than most of the local dealers it is rarely an issue and easily overcome.

jipster

If ou are upfront and just tell people it is extra profit they usually say, oh ok, and thats the end of it.

All extra profit huh? Just as I suspected. I'm taking this news alert to the "Confessions of a Used Car Salesman" writer. :surprise:

joel0622

All extra profit huh? Just as I suspected. I'm taking this news alert to the "Confessions of a Used Car Salesman" writer

Make sure you quote me. I want my props. I have neve been mentioned in a fiction story before. :P

mavenone

I signed up 'Retail Buyers Order' for a Vehicle at a TN dealer that is "in-transit".

This is waht the buyers order says.

MSRP: 31800.00
Business Tax: 96.60
Doc Fee: 399.00
sub-total: 32295.60
state sales tax: 2260.00
Local sales tax: 80.00
License Fee: 117.00
Temporary Tag: 5.50
-------------------------
Total: 34758.00
Rebate: 1250.00
-----------------------------
Total (after rebate): 33508.79

What is confusing us is tax percent in TN is 9.25%, but 2260 tax is 7.1% of 31800?

I don't know what they mean by by business tax.

Can someone explain these numbers?

Thanks in advance.

imidazol97

This talks about a 7% sales tax with an addition 2.75% on purchase from 1600-3200 dollars.

http://tennessee.gov/revenue/taxguides/salesanduse.pdf
page 12.

I suggest posting in Stories from Sales Frontlines. There is at least one salesperson from TN in that topic and maybe more who can explain the taxes.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f09ff51/45854#MSG45854

oldfarmer50

"...This talks about..."

I found that same web site and ended up more confused. If you plug in the rates to the OPs figures it doesn't make sense.

That same site DOES tell you how to apply for tax stamps to put on your illegal drugs though. :confuse:

I agree, go to "Sales Stories" and ask joel.

oldfarmer50

Let's say you want to buy a car in Florida. I've read that the doc fees on new cars can top $600. What about used cars?

If you buy a $4000 beater is it possible they would slap a $600 doc fee on that too?

Or can you expect to pay a percentage of the purchase price?

mikefm58

The most recent used car I bought from a dealer was bought at Carmax and the fee was $174 with another $24 fee at closing that was not disclosed up front. I was in negotiations with another new car dealer prior for a one yr old used car and their fee was $599, so I guess it doesn't matter, new or used, still the same BS fee.

lrguy44

My guess is that in a dealership all doc fees are the same regardless of what you buy - from a beater to a Bentley.

oldfarmer50

"...regardless of what you buy..."

Yikes! So in theory the price of a $100 car could be raised 600% just due to fees. That's sick. :sick:

Still, I supose you just make your offer $600 light to compensate.

jipster

Still, I supose you just make your offer $600 light to compensate

That would be making an offer of negative $500. :surprise:

"Hey dude, give me 500 dollars and I'll buy that $100 car." Might be worth a try. :P

oldfarmer50

"...Making an offer of negative $500..."

Didn't you ever look at a car and say "They couldn't PAY me enough to drive that car"?

Now you know how much to ask. :P

euphonium

Dumb
Old
Customer

iancar1

I've been looking around the 'Net for info on the doc fee caps and it seems that the limit on that bogus charge here in Texas is $50. While I found that info here on Edmunds and about a million other forums/websites/blogs, I never found an official State of Texas website or piece of paper with that number written down. So when I walk into a dealership today, guess what? They spring a $143 doc fee on me and explain away my argument on the cap by saying the law had only just recently changed and now there's no $50 cap on documentation fees. Uh, right.

Does anyone know where I can find the official legal information on documentation fees being capped in the state of Texas? I've just spent a couple of hours trying to navigate the state's DMV website and couldn't find the info (maybe it's called something other than "documentation fee cap" and I missed it).

Thanks in advance!

tallman1

I don't live in Texas, but you may want to look on your state government web page to see if a law was passed recently. Perhaps you can even ask the salesperson the number of the bill that allowed the increase.

kyfdx

That's the first I've heard that..

Seems like a strange number ($143). I wonder if they've rolled in other fees (license, registration, etc) into that number. Also, TX dealers are famous for passing on their inventory tax, and telling the customer that it's required (it is for the dealer...not the customer). That usually amounts to $50-$100.... so, that may be part of it.

regards,
kyfdx

lrguy44

Call your state automobile dealer board

imidazol97

Another factor is dealers are poor readers. Good thing they aren't running the government. They read something that says they _may_ charge _up to_ an amount in doc fees as if it says _they must charge_ that amount.

The dealer tried that when I bought my car in June. I pulled out copies of the Ohio Revised Code and suggested we read it together to see if I misread it with my graduate degree from Miami! He back-pedaled rapidly realizing this could be a deal breaker. Then it was they had to show it so that people who paid it couldn't claim they were unfairly treated and taken advantage of. I explained I didn't care what he showed because I was looking at the total at the bottom and had been all along--he had popped out the fee after several cycles of my pricing tax, title, and temp license fees. I had just allowed a $50-75 dollar fee in my pricing for doc. We ended at $100.

euphonium

write that number down on a blank sheet of paper and say, "Call me when you meet the number. How you figure in miscellanous taxes and fees is your task.

alamocity

Texas HB 3621 has removed the $50.00 cap on document fees and now prohibits the fee from exceeding a reasonable amount for the handling and processing of documents related to a motor vehicle sale. Bill states that retail seller must clearly post a prescribed document fee notice so that it is clearly visible in each place where a vehicle sale is finalized. Hope that helps

kyfdx

...reasonable amount...

Good luck with that! :surprise:

mikefm58

How you figure in miscellanous taxes and fees is your task.

I disagree. There is legal mumbo jumbo in the sales contract that basically says "If the dealer figures the wrong amounts for state fees and taxes that they have the legal right to come back after you for the difference."

It happened to me, dealer forgot to charge sales tax on a leased vehicle I was purchasing then trading in. It got ugly but we split the difference.

sabri

I found your comment and I've been in the situation, so I've done a research, and you can find the "Cap of Documentary fees of the state of Texas" at this URL address.

http://www.occc.state.tx.us/pages/Legal/Laws/fcode/2005/ch348.html#a

it's a document of 22 pages, but it's vary informative.

Good Luck!

alamocity

As a side note HB 3621 lifted the cap on documentary fees here in the state of Texas effective 1 Sept 2009.

euphonium

Does Texas law require that a DOC fee be imposed?

alamocity

I'm not aware of any law here in Texas that require a Doc fee be imposed and while I've read on forums here where people have refused to pay any type of Doc fee my guess is that isn't the norm. That bill does require the retail seller post a prescribed documentary fee notice so that it is clearly visible in each place where sale is finalized

jb_turner

If dealer "A" has said car for $30,000 OTD including $700 Doc fee and dealer "B" has exact same car for $30,500 OTD and no Doc fee which would you purchase from?
I suggest compare apples to apples and shop OTD because we all pay it.

euphonium

I'd tell Dealer A, "Here's $29,300. Take it or leave it." :P

karhill1

Never do I comment on these forums. However, regarding Doc Fees, they are not illegal nor are they required by law. The solution is simple, I just tell the dealer I am not paying a doc fee and I will not buy the vehicle if one is added to the agreed-upon price. I have never had a dealer lose a sale over a doc fee. Usually, they just change the figures to show the doc fee above the sale price. When buying a vehicle, a person needs to understand they have the power not the dealer. A customer simply has to leave and go somewhere else if they are uncomfortable with a dealer. Always remember, no one in the dealership is your friend.

210delray

Exactly. If the dealer insists on showing a doc fee in the paperwork, then the car's out-the-door price should be lowered by a like amount.

lrguy44

The Doc fee is part of the OTD price. we must show a doc fee on every deal, so I would cut the price of the car by the doc fee amount.

joel0622

Always remember, no one in the dealership is your friend.

Thats right we hate you all and talk bad about your moms and your dog as soon as you leave.

karhill1

The correct fact is not all in the dealership are your enemy. There are indeed car salespeople who seek to earn the trust and respect of their customers before they seek to sell the car. They are not hard to find it just takes a bit of work and some observation. It would do everyone good if we all rejected the bad salespeople and only purchased from the many honest salespeople. Just as there are ethical and honest salespeople there are ethical and honest dealerships. The internet is a good place to find information to help weed out the bad apples. Having purchased many, many vehicles the difference between dealerships, even in the same geographical area, can be amazing. Personally, I enjoy rewarding a good dealership employing ethical salespeople with my business and repeat business. Regarding doc fees, I do not care how the contract is written, as long as the bottom line is accurate, the dealer can put anything in the box for document fees.

imidazol97

>we must show a doc fee on every deal,

Why do you have to show a doc fee on every deal?

lrguy44

If you do not charge 1 customer with a Doc fee the dealership is open to to lawsuits from those who paid a Doc fee based on discriminatory sales practices.

jwm40517

Using that logic everyone that paid a different price for the same vehicle, mud flaps, mop & glo, other accessories,interest rates or extended warranty could sue for discriminatory sales practices.

Some states like Ohio impose a limit of $ 250 on doc fees & other states have limits also, but nowhere in the law does it say they must charge the upper limit or any fee at all.

jipster

As long as your dealership isn't charging just certain minority groups a doc fee, I don't see a problem.

To myself, the consumer, it just seems like a lame excuse to charge everyone a doc. fee.

lrguy44

First of all, as I understand it, a fee is more vulnerable to a lawsuit than the negotiated price of a product. Otherwise, every retail chain would be vulnerable by putting a product on sale. There was a large class action suit on discriminatory interest rates several years ago. It threatened the dealer's ability (as an agent) to make points on a transaction. Also, bank rates were in question. It was based on race and social economics.