If my Toyota Vibe only had adjustable pedals and a telescoping steering wheel, I'd dump my 626 in a second and have a second one in the driveway. Unfortunately it is a tad too small for this 6'1'' guy. I think Passat wagons are WAY too overpriced for what you get. The electronics issue make it less than reliable in my book. I also wish I could wait for the month of april, but I don't think my Ford 626 will wait that long. I will have sailed it over the nearest cliff long before that I'm afraid. Again, if anyone can tell me why I should run very far away from the GM engine in the Maxx, I'm listening....looks simply don't cause me any alarm. It is still my #1 choice at this point.
Do you like Outbacks? They have raised roofs, and the base model with no moonroof has lots of leg room. I've seen some dip just under $20k, freight included.
It seems to meet your criteria for a roomy wagon.
I just think it's a good idea to sample several vehicles before you buy. We drove probably a dozen or so (see the Town Hall Test Drive Team thread).
I Loooooooove Subarus. However, they don't make one that I fit in (with the exception of the new Forrester, which has good driver's leg room, but is little more than a two seater since the back seat isn't worth its weight in dirt). I have tried all the models of wagons, short of the current Kia wagon. I don't agree about the head room. One major grip about the Subarus is the poorly cut door openings. I have to duck every time I get in and out to avoid bonking my head. I wish they would make the car just a bit higher (like the Vibe). As for fuel economy, you are correct; I am biting my lip just thinking what a 12 valve, 6 cylinder engine is going to bring me in gas mileage. I'm not big on getting only 21 in the city, but I bet that is about what it will come in at.
According to dindak: "I find it funny how you think people must work for or love GM just because they like the Aztek or any other GM vehicle you hate. Not everyone shares your views."
True, not everyone does.
However, you wouldn't need a very big room to hold a meeting of the people who love the Aztek. Disasters like that make us wonder if anyone at GM has even half a clue, and make it hard to understand how some can keep defending them in the face of screw-up after screw-up.
ab348 : Aztek was a great idea and some of the concepts it was based off were great, but the vehicle was not good in terms of looks. Still, owners seem to like them and quality has be decent.
jchan : Expect 20/30 range give or take 2 mpg.
Maxx : The entire Vibe concept and interior are GM. It's Toyota mechanicals though. People are always quick to assume GM had nothing to do with the Vibe and are just re-badging a Toyota car.
ateixeira : I like Subarus in general, but the Forester we looked at is just not very attractive to me. I like the Outback wagons best, but they seem a bit pricey.
They carry a $1250 incentive right now. You can get a base Outback for a hair under $20k, an H6 with cloth seats for $23.5k. That's less than the average price of a new car, per NADA.
I don't think they'll compete with the Maxx, though. The Maxx will be FWD and puts the emphasis on passenger space, while Subies tend to focus on cargo and gear.
I know outbacks are well over C$30K up here, which will be substantially more than the Maxx. More cargo and AWD on the Outback though, you are right. Forester is well priced, but I just don't like the looks though the 03 is better.
I'd love to get some kind of wagon / crossover as I'm sure the insurance will be less than a SUV. Got a quote on a CRV and VUE and it was not much less than a full size SUV. Ack!
Doesn't really matter. The big three generally price to be competitive regardless of where the vehicle is made. Honda and Toyota (who build cars here also) do the same. The make up any CDN exchange losses from sales in gains made with US sales of CDN built cars.
Have had quite a rough time of it with "carrepairitis" the last 2 weeks. Kudos to the GM Protection Plan (extended warranty).
My '98 spent the better part of 2 weeks in the shop since when they replaced the intake manifold gaskets, they didn't put other things back together right. Then, 2 days ago, the inside rearview mirror fell off again (3rd time), but that's minor and a FL thing.
Per a tip-off in the '04 Malibu forum that final sedan pricing would be released at 10AM today, I'm trying to find a site where the final prices are posted. No luck so far. Gmbuypower will likely be the best bet, but its not there yet (if any of you think that the sedan estimates posted there right now include a Maxx LT as the top $25.5, I hate to tell you the truth). Maxx pricing won't be out for a few months. Sedan production does begin a week from Monday. Expect we'll be getting the final sedan brochure in the mail in Sept. (or sooner). Official intro date is in Sept. for the sedan.
Chevy has truly bent over backwards to get me thru the rough spot with my car, which is far more than I can say for Honda, based on reading the postings of disgust in the Accord forum re: experiences with the '03s. Call it a slap in the face, but I'm back on board.
Once again, hoping that the Sept. car mags, which should start arriving any day now, have at least preview drives of the new 'Bu sedan...
Well, there you have a really close guesstimate Maxx. Your Maxx LS (assuming you add head curtains, power seat and treat your daughter to the rear DVD) will sticker for just about $24,250.
The loaded Maxx LT will go for $27,075.
Above based on the $1500 premium for the Maxx over the sedan, which we saw at gmbuypower.
thanks everyone. Geez, do you think that mileage will hold up on the Maxx, or will the additional weight take the numbers down a notch? With my UBS buying service, I can't control the price. It is fixed (around $150 over dealer cost). However, I hope the number doesn't creep up too far from what was posted at gmbuyingpower. I still hope I'm looking at $22,500 for my car after tax. If the interest rates stay low, that should be OK. BTW: do any of you doubt those EPA #s? From a 2.2 to a 3.5, you only lose 2 MPG???
The Fuel Economy sounds great. Almost and maybe even (I don't know- I haven't checked the numbers for the Accord's 3.0L) better than the Accord! The Maxx might be one MPG less for the extra weight. I hope that it's not too much less.
I don't understand. I thought that the greater the amount of valves per cylinder, the greater the horsepower AND fuel economy? I figured the Maxx's 12 valves would eat more gas, not less. Someone educate me!!
High torque ohv engines if designed well can get good mileage. The torque engines work less launching the vehicles from a stop and accelerating from low speed. If the gearing is done right, the ohv engine will not lose that many mpgs to the ohc. So mileage stays close.
I got online and looked at the GM fleet and saw that the Chevy Classic, the old Malibu, doesn't have the old Malibu's 3.1 V6. It has the Saturn Ion's 2.2L Ecotec 4 cylinder engine. Who decided to go with the 140 HP engine in the Classic? Everyone would like more power when they rent a Chevy Classic from Avis/Enterprise/Budget. I mean, it's not the renter's car, so why not a little bit more power without paying more?
"GM's old 3.8L is one of the most fuel efficient V6 engines around. 3.5L is better with the same HP output."
and are dull and nauseating in operation. So much fun, wink wink, that you gotta bring a magazine with to read while you drive its so dull.
27,000 for the MAXX hmmmm, exactly as I thought....who was the one DREAMING about Maxx's in the low 20's.....
Ecotec in the malibu...errrr....classic, that would be an improvment.....lighten up the front end from that cast iron v6.....and not a deadly drive like the quad4 version. I had driven the Quad4 Malibu before and that was like driving a garden tractor. The ecotec 4 is more enjoyable than the buzzsaw v6, having driven the ecotec in the saturns and getting cursed from above by getting stuck with a lameibu rental a few weeks ago. 1000+ miles, yech.
jchan : The 3.1L has ceased production so I'm not surprised they are putting the Ecotec under the hood. They probably didn't want to expand 3.4L production and fleets are a good way to showcase a great engine I would think.
Reg : Why is the 3.8L so dull? It hauls off the line and with a supercharger, even more so. As for the Maxx, 27K is for a loaded one. Not many loaded Chevy's on the road that I see. It will start in the lower $20's and that is pretty well equipped.
Dindak, not to be picayune, but the 3.1 will continue in production for one more year (in the Buick Century). When the '05 Regal is introduced it will replace both the current Regal and Century. Had to think about that one for a minute.
Notice the smile on my face? Not only did you all state that the mpg posting from yesterday was indeed correct (only 1 mpg loss between the 2.2L and 3.5L), but my "I only own Chevys" mechanic confirmed it as well. That is a big sigh of relief. I can live with that gas mileage on the Maxx. Now when the sedan comes in, I can go try out the pedals and check out the larger engine to see if my legs (and hands to change the oil and such) fit. Good weekend to all of you!
I wouldn't say haul, but it feels punchy off the line mainly because the way GM has the throttle linkage set up and tranny shift points. Once you get up to 40+ mph, it is average at best and once you get up over 50 or so it just doesn't have the lunge. Ask it to do more than cruise around town, go above 50+ and then its starts to feel breathless and like it has to work too hard when other powerplants are just starting to come alive at 40 or 50+ mph. The 3800 just never seems like it has much left or work as easily as the OHC powerplants do once you hit cruising speeds. Sure it feels 'peppy' from a start, but that's not the whole picture.
"and with a supercharger, even more so"
How much do you gotta pay extra for that bandaid.....GTP's run 30 grand now, a lot of extra coin to just get a supercharger to boost engine power to competitive levels when the basic engine design should be updated in the first place to keep pace with the competition.
That's why I am all too skeptical of this 'new' (not really new, but you guys go ahead and believe) 3.5.......it will exhibit the same driving characteristics all these GM PR motors do.....'peppy' from a start and then less enjoyable as you get to real driving speeds. This new Malibu really deserves a v6 that is more engaging and lively.....just like the competitors have. NOT like all the old GM cars of yore.
reg, my mechanic friend said everything you did. The car will be fine off the line, and average at highway speeds. That is perfect!!! I cannot imaging why in heck I would need to go from 50 to 75 in a moment's notice. I also wouldn't want it the other way around. My 626 is pathetic from a full stop; I don't want to buy anything that resembles it! It sounds to me like GM used its head when figuring out which engine to "build"/put in this car. It needs the extra torque since the car (Maxx) will be almost 3500 pounds, and it will get the gas mileage that people like myself who give a damn about the environment will appreciate. When I go to Chevy at the end of this month to see how the pedals work in the sedan (for my long legs), I just might order a Maxx ("sight unseen") right there an then, if my UBS salesperson will allow me. I did this with my Vibe. I ordered it based only on research. The dealer hoped I would not return since he wanted to sell the Vibe for full retail, instead of for $50 profit ($150 total = $100 to UBS, $50 to the dealer).
whatever, new GP's are under 20 grand, so GTP's at over 26 grand is quite a stretch just to get a bandaid blower.
The Malibu at 3500 pounds is heavier than the more spacious Altima. The Altima has a 45hp edge to boot. The Malibu's power will be concentrated on the low end of the powerband, unlike the competitors which will have ample power at all rpm's.
The Malibu will be able to get out of its own way, but a speed demon it will not be. I'd say its on track for a 0-60 somewhere around 8.1-8.3 seconds..........really about .5 to 1.0 seconds behind where it ought to be.
You "guys" have me all wacked out over this engine stuff, and I'm a real car guy! Guess the only answer will be to test drive both the new 'Bu and the Accord V6 to compare. Accord forum is going nuts with troubles with the '03 (brakes and alignment issues), and getting NHTSA involved. Honda relies on that car so much, fixes are on tap for the '04s no doubt...
Since the extended warranty doesn't expire on my '98 until 8/04, I've decided to wait for an '05 something. Will just have to put up with dealer visits for another year, but the mileage is low and repairs are free. Now I even hear that the Sonata (friend has an '02 and claims it the best car he's ever had) will be all-new for '05, so who knows?
I'll be watching the forum (in whatever form it's in over the next year;I hope they don't combine the new 'Bu forums with the old, but bet they do) to get feedback on the new car, and checking TSB's like a hawk.
Maxx, glad you're so excited. Please be a trooper and report goods and bads after you take delivery. I might have missed this, but have no idea what UBS stands for (Universal Buying Service??). Also, I assume that you're trading in the 626 (or doing something with it) and keeping the Vibe. What I don't get is why you need cargo flexibility if you're keeping the Vibe. I'm flipflopping all over the place on car choices because a sedan also suits me fine. Talk about legroom (I'm 6'3"), the Altima, Sonata and Accord all have it in spades.
I'd like the Maxx for Home Depot stuff and trips to get folks to/from the airport, but I don't think I can swing the price of the Maxx and won't settle for a stripper. I'm not really fond of the looks of the new sedan (see my posts in that forum). Looks like something my grandmother would drive.
It does look like something grandma would drive. I simply want another Vibe with legroom. My Vibe is just a hair too short in the driver's position, and it does not have telescoping steering. My logic is simple: when you want to dip into my hard earned salary to buy a stupid piece of sheet metal which has barely changed since the Model T was introduced, I want that piece of sheet metal to do the most it can for my money. Traditionally, that meant buying a Toyota due to its fantastic reliability. But Toyota continues to ignore creature comfort and style, and instead, gouges its customers with high prices simply based on its excellent reliability. For the money, I think the Vibe AWD is close to being the best value for the $$ on the road today. I'm hoping the Maxx will be all of that and more. To offset the fact that the Maxx will not be a Toyota like my Vibe, I will certainly get an extended warranty to cover me. But in closing: I will never own a gas guzzling truck; I will never squander my money on a two seater, and I have no intention on ever buying a sedan which does little more than point straight ahead and drive. The Maxx and Vibe will tackle many odd jobs in addition to getting me where I need to go. You can count on me providing every detail about the Maxx. As for trading in my 626, remember, my sledgehammer is only 40 yards away!! If it even looks at me the wrong way, slam!!
I guess this is because everyone in America is tall and fat? But the Vibe has plenty of room.
If anything, what I hear about American cars is that legroom seems to stop at a certain point.
I guess maybe these pushrod people don't drive in the traffic that I do, but 50-75 is the most important stretch of acceleration. When traffic backs up and then quickly speeds up on the freeway, it's the most important.
I would venture to say that every pushrod I've driven, including the 3.8 supercharged, becomes nearly gutless past 50mph.
Some random observations from the Sept. Motor Trend which arrived today ("First Drive")(others have posted a capsule summary of the article in the '04 forum): 1. The car looks even worse on the road, and they likened its looks to that of a work truck. Maybe I'll get over it as I did with the '03 Accord fanny, but it'll take a while. DRLs in the parking lamps help a bit. 2. Rear seat only folds to a 30-degree incline (steeper than in my '98). Will be a problem if that's the case in the Maxx also. 3. Gave kudos to the new steering, I'm glad. 4. "The 3500 is as quiet and smooth as the Camry's V-6 (but a notch below the Accord's)". That's a pretty big compliment. 7.8 0-60 ain't too shabby, while not a class-leader, it'll do. 5. Also gave kudos to all-around legroom ("especially in the rear seat of the Maxx"). I hope I agree.
magnetophone : Just took my dad's new LeSabre for a drive and while it's totally not my kind of car, the 3800 had plenty of power in the higher speed ranges and is far from gutless.
Reg : I'm thinking most people aren't going to be dragging Chevy Maxxes on the drag strip. That said an SS version is supposedly in the works for some reason?
the rear seats in the Maxx fold totally flat (see the pictures posted in Edmunds). I know for sure that other than Nissan (Altima and Maxima), the Japanese certainly ARE tailoring their cars to the 5'9'' driver. I am not a giant at 6'1'' and so desperately search high and low for any car (not a sedan) where I don't have to jam my leg right through the gas pedal. There are so few cars that I won't drive because they are too ugly. The Accord is one of them. Big thumbs down again to the Japanese for not running their exterior designs by Chrysler ahead of time. I also think Subarus are also butt ugly, but would drive one if they would stop making me drive their cars from the back seat. The fact that the Maxx is ugly in front, doesn't overrule the fact that it has a straight roof line, allowing rear passengers easy access to their seats (unlike the Altima which requires you to get on your knees, lest you smash your head on the radically sloping pillar upon entry). I feel like Homer Simpson: why don't these bozo designers ask me, the common man, how to build a car???
The 3.8L equipped cars also come with CASH BACK! So, you'd get a pretty good deal on that Grand Prix Supercharged. (considering all the other junk they throw in) I like the Accord- But it gets pricey when I want leather. I'm considering a Malibu LT- sedan or Maxx. I'll have to see both. I'm in no rush. My Honda Civic isn't on it's sixth roll of duct tape, you see. (it's a '99 model, 72K miles)I might trade it in, but probably will keep it for all sakes of lowering my insurance. (I get a discount for driving 2 Hondas instead of a Honda and a Caravan)
Comments
-juice
It seems to meet your criteria for a roomy wagon.
I just think it's a good idea to sample several vehicles before you buy. We drove probably a dozen or so (see the Town Hall Test Drive Team thread).
-juice
As for fuel economy, you are correct; I am biting my lip just thinking what a 12 valve, 6 cylinder engine is going to bring me in gas mileage. I'm not big on getting only 21 in the city, but I bet that is about what it will come in at.
True, not everyone does.
However, you wouldn't need a very big room to hold a meeting of the people who love the Aztek. Disasters like that make us wonder if anyone at GM has even half a clue, and make it hard to understand how some can keep defending them in the face of screw-up after screw-up.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
jchan : Expect 20/30 range give or take 2 mpg.
Maxx : The entire Vibe concept and interior are GM. It's Toyota mechanicals though. People are always quick to assume GM had nothing to do with the Vibe and are just re-badging a Toyota car.
ateixeira : I like Subarus in general, but the Forester we looked at is just not very attractive to me. I like the Outback wagons best, but they seem a bit pricey.
I don't think they'll compete with the Maxx, though. The Maxx will be FWD and puts the emphasis on passenger space, while Subies tend to focus on cargo and gear.
-juice
I'd love to get some kind of wagon / crossover as I'm sure the insurance will be less than a SUV. Got a quote on a CRV and VUE and it was not much less than a full size SUV. Ack!
That's another story. There is more demand and less supply there. Subies don't have to compete much on price.
OTOH, you get nice options we don't, like heated seats standard on the WRX, and the moonroof option with the Forester turbo 5 speed.
Where is the Malibu made? US or Canada?
-juice
-juice
Used to be $1.59/US$, now $1.40. An Outback would actually be cheaper for us to buy in the US today.
-juice
My '98 spent the better part of 2 weeks in the shop since when they replaced the intake manifold gaskets, they didn't put other things back together right. Then, 2 days ago, the inside rearview mirror fell off again (3rd time), but that's minor and a FL thing.
Per a tip-off in the '04 Malibu forum that final sedan pricing would be released at 10AM today, I'm trying to find a site where the final prices are posted. No luck so far. Gmbuypower will likely be the best bet, but its not there yet (if any of you think that the sedan estimates posted there right now include a Maxx LT as the top $25.5, I hate to tell you the truth). Maxx pricing won't be out for a few months. Sedan production does begin a week from Monday. Expect we'll be getting the final sedan brochure in the mail in Sept. (or sooner). Official intro date is in Sept. for the sedan.
Chevy has truly bent over backwards to get me thru the rough spot with my car, which is far more than I can say for Honda, based on reading the postings of disgust in the Accord forum re: experiences with the '03s. Call it a slap in the face, but I'm back on board.
Once again, hoping that the Sept. car mags, which should start arriving any day now, have at least preview drives of the new 'Bu sedan...
Mileage with the 3.5L is rated at 23/32. Not bad at all!
Well, there you have a really close guesstimate Maxx. Your Maxx LS (assuming you add head curtains, power seat and treat your daughter to the rear DVD) will sticker for just about $24,250.
The loaded Maxx LT will go for $27,075.
Above based on the $1500 premium for the Maxx over the sedan, which we saw at gmbuypower.
Chalk one up for moi.
-juice
and are dull and nauseating in operation. So much fun, wink wink, that you gotta bring a magazine with to read while you drive its so dull.
27,000 for the MAXX hmmmm, exactly as I thought....who was the one DREAMING about Maxx's in the low 20's.....
Ecotec in the malibu...errrr....classic, that would be an improvment.....lighten up the front end from that cast iron v6.....and not a deadly drive like the quad4 version. I had driven the Quad4 Malibu before and that was like driving a garden tractor. The ecotec 4 is more enjoyable than the buzzsaw v6, having driven the ecotec in the saturns and getting cursed from above by getting stuck with a lameibu rental a few weeks ago. 1000+ miles, yech.
Reg : Why is the 3.8L so dull? It hauls off the line and with a supercharger, even more so. As for the Maxx, 27K is for a loaded one. Not many loaded Chevy's on the road that I see. It will start in the lower $20's and that is pretty well equipped.
-juice
magnetophone : No Maxx pricing has been released yet, it's all speculation.
I wouldn't say haul, but it feels punchy off the line mainly because the way GM has the throttle linkage set up and tranny shift points. Once you get up to 40+ mph, it is average at best and once you get up over 50 or so it just doesn't have the lunge. Ask it to do more than cruise around town, go above 50+ and then its starts to feel breathless and like it has to work too hard when other powerplants are just starting to come alive at 40 or 50+ mph. The 3800 just never seems like it has much left or work as easily as the OHC powerplants do once you hit cruising speeds. Sure it feels 'peppy' from a start, but that's not the whole picture.
"and with a supercharger, even more so"
How much do you gotta pay extra for that bandaid.....GTP's run 30 grand now, a lot of extra coin to just get a supercharger to boost engine power to competitive levels when the basic engine design should be updated in the first place to keep pace with the competition.
That's why I am all too skeptical of this 'new' (not really new, but you guys go ahead and believe) 3.5.......it will exhibit the same driving characteristics all these GM PR motors do.....'peppy' from a start and then less enjoyable as you get to real driving speeds. This new Malibu really deserves a v6 that is more engaging and lively.....just like the competitors have. NOT like all the old GM cars of yore.
Look around, Camrys hit $30k MSRP nowadays. MSRP doesn't mean much.
-juice
The Malibu at 3500 pounds is heavier than the more spacious Altima. The Altima has a 45hp edge to boot. The Malibu's power will be concentrated on the low end of the powerband, unlike the competitors which will have ample power at all rpm's.
The Malibu will be able to get out of its own way, but a speed demon it will not be. I'd say its on track for a 0-60 somewhere around 8.1-8.3 seconds..........really about .5 to 1.0 seconds behind where it ought to be.
Since the extended warranty doesn't expire on my '98 until 8/04, I've decided to wait for an '05 something. Will just have to put up with dealer visits for another year, but the mileage is low and repairs are free. Now I even hear that the Sonata (friend has an '02 and claims it the best car he's ever had) will be all-new for '05, so who knows?
I'll be watching the forum (in whatever form it's in over the next year;I hope they don't combine the new 'Bu forums with the old, but bet they do) to get feedback on the new car, and checking TSB's like a hawk.
Maxx, glad you're so excited. Please be a trooper and report goods and bads after you take delivery. I might have missed this, but have no idea what UBS stands for (Universal Buying Service??). Also, I assume that you're trading in the 626 (or doing something with it) and keeping the Vibe. What I don't get is why you need cargo flexibility if you're keeping the Vibe. I'm flipflopping all over the place on car choices because a sedan also suits me fine. Talk about legroom (I'm 6'3"), the Altima, Sonata and Accord all have it in spades.
I'd like the Maxx for Home Depot stuff and trips to get folks to/from the airport, but I don't think I can swing the price of the Maxx and won't settle for a stripper. I'm not really fond of the looks of the new sedan (see my posts in that forum). Looks like something my grandmother would drive.
If anything, what I hear about American cars is that legroom seems to stop at a certain point.
I guess maybe these pushrod people don't drive in the traffic that I do, but 50-75 is the most important stretch of acceleration. When traffic backs up and then quickly speeds up on the freeway, it's the most important.
I would venture to say that every pushrod I've driven, including the 3.8 supercharged, becomes nearly gutless past 50mph.
Some random observations from the Sept. Motor Trend which arrived today ("First Drive")(others have posted a capsule summary of the article in the '04 forum):
1. The car looks even worse on the road, and they likened its looks to that of a work truck. Maybe I'll get over it as I did with the '03 Accord fanny, but it'll take a while. DRLs in the parking lamps help a bit.
2. Rear seat only folds to a 30-degree incline (steeper than in my '98). Will be a problem if that's the case in the Maxx also.
3. Gave kudos to the new steering, I'm glad.
4. "The 3500 is as quiet and smooth as the Camry's V-6 (but a notch below the Accord's)". That's a pretty big compliment. 7.8 0-60 ain't too shabby, while not a class-leader, it'll do.
5. Also gave kudos to all-around legroom ("especially in the rear seat of the Maxx"). I hope I agree.
Reg : I'm thinking most people aren't going to be dragging Chevy Maxxes on the drag strip. That said an SS version is supposedly in the works for some reason?