The New 5W-20 grade - Good or Bad for your engine

swschrad

I think operahousewk and g45man have this one closed with the answer. if you are above minimum pressure with filtered oil (weasel word meaning you have also replaced your oil filter and are not pumping sand and metal filings) that is getting to the wear points and holding viscosity, you're in the pink.

unfortunately, that's what manufacturers recommendations for weight and service grade are supposed to do for us, rather than putting glass viewports in our rocker covers and using microscopes to watch for bubbles at the ends of moving parts while somebody calls out the readings on the manual (marked) pressure gauge.

this is too much for me, I am going to take two aspirin and lie down. only problem.. should I lie on my back or on my side.........

zueslewis

the gravitational pull may slow your heartbeat, thereby reducing your lifespan by 32 seconds. I'd be careful if I were you.

americanflag

Post #52 about folks who ask the same question and get the same answer.

I know it is taking me time to accept that 5W-20 is an inferior oil and is just being recommended for CAFE brownie points.

But please keep in mind:
1) I believed in Santa Claus until the 2nd grade, even after the other kids told me the truth;
2) I am a slow learner, was almost held back a grade in elementary school;
3) I was always the one getting yelled at in the Army for being hard headed.

I appreciate the help:)!

zueslewis

or I wouldn't be answering all your questions in my private e-mail.

I was referring to all the "rocket scientists" or wanna be "rocket scientists" who feel they need to analyze stuff to death. You and I aren't one of these.

americanflag

even if it hurts their product - ripped from the pages of today's headlines just like on "Law and Order":

McDonald's has always had the best fries of any of the fast food chains. Enter a lawsuit from some overweight people against McDonald's and what happens? Several months ago McDonald's CHANGED the formulation of their french fry OIL to something with LESS cholesterol and more political correctness. Only one problem - their french fries now taste lousy. Even I don't need an engineering degree to figure that out. Oil formula changed for political reasons = inferior product.

zueslewis

that people DIDN'T KNOW McDonald's food made them fat.

I'm from South Texas, home of fried food - fried chicken, chicken friend steak, mashed potatoes and lots of pie and my Mom told me McDonald's food was fattening when I was a little kid!!

udasai

McDonalds fries haven't been any good since they stopped using lard. Mmmm...lard--"Food Really Does Taste Better Deep-Fried in Wholesome, All-Natural Lard" (TM) Lard Council.

Next thing you now, it's canola for your engines. Salt the fries!

americanflag

engine oil. You know, since the 1950's McDonald's has been famous for their french fries. It kind of made it worth suffering through one of their hamburgers just to have their french fries. And one silly law suit and McDonald's throws all that tradition away. If the corporations will throw away the good oil for the french fries they'll also throw out the good oil for the cars if it involves government regulation. Do you really think the french fries are any healthier after the change? Of course not, if we want healthy, we'll eat broccoli.

I joked earlier about the 5W-20 being like water. You know a common household device that is lubricated by water? The garbage disposal. Since I put 5W-20 in my car, that is about how my engine sounds too, like a garbage disposal. This can't be good...

swschrad

let's get the cross-promotion working both ways here. poke The Doughboy (tm) and axle grease comes out. Orville's Movie-Theater Moly flavor.

oh, and don't forget... Lard (tm)... it's what lubricated the wheels on the Oregon Trail

deep-fried broccoli.... nah, still sounds obscene.

fleetwoodsimca

and I mean nobody, has yet explained ANY reason that 5W-30 would harm ANY Ford or Honda engine.

zueslewis

synthetic if you prefer.

navigator3740

fleetwoodsimca says nobody has explained why 5W-30 would harm your engine.......

Now I'm not saying I believe this and I'm not saying I don't. But I also used to request higher viscosity oil for my cars - and I had one mechanic who argued with me. He said the thick stuff doesn't get into the top end and tough places quite fast enough, causing wear and early failure, and that the manufacturer, who had tested my engine extensively, had recommended the best oil for that particular engine. I let him put the runny stuff in and have just dropped it ever since. I don't know.....but there's an explanation. For what it's worth.

The only other "guess" I have, and it is just a wild-guess, is that neither Ford or Honda, with all their virtues, have ever really given much deference to the Feds until forced to. Of all the manufacturers, I don't see them being willing to risk warranty claims and further erosion of their reputations to boost the CAFE ratings. But I could certainly be wrong.

204meca

julus

Oil that is too thick will shear and experience cavitation at high RPM, causing metal to metal contact.

edwardn1

I can see where Ford has to resort to desperate measures to meet CAFE . BUT HONDA? They arguably have the most fuel efficient fleet of vehicles offered on the market. No gas guzlers at all, and a lot of real fuel misers, including 50mpg hybrids. I suspect that Honda is in no danger of cafe penalties and they know the oil needs of their engines. I remember resisting using 10w30 when this "thin" oil was starting to be recommended in the 1980s. Turned out it was more stabile than the 10w40 we all thought was perfect. Go to a spec sheet and you will see that all things being equal, same brand, same type, 10w30 has a higher flame and flash point than 10w40. That because a slightly lighter base oil has to be used because the ADDITIONAL V.I. improvers that give the 40 rating at 212F or 100c have a small effect at low temps also. This is necessary to give proper low temp pumpability. This is why the flash point is LOWER in the 10w40. In other words, the 10w30 is better under heat. I haven't seen the spec sheet for 5w20 yet but I bet the same will apply and the 5w30 will have a lower flash and fire point. I do have a concern that not all of the engines are really designed for the thinner oil. Rest assured it will perform if Honda is laying their fine reputation on it.

chas_in_okc

BioDiesel is here as a fuel. 20% veggie oil. In some areas they buy old cooking oils from fast food chains to make it. Think MacMotorOil is far off? ;-)

rerenov8r

The different base oil stocks are what deteremine the cold flow characteristics of lubricants. In the case of mineral oil the refiners/blenders have a more limited choice, and the additional polymers added can lead reduced high-temp protection. For high-reving, hot running vehicles that is real concern...

BTW, If sound was a good indication of "lubricated protection" shouldn't we all be packing our crankcases full of sawdust in the style of certain fly-by-night used car lot operators???

fleetwoodsimca

Major good point there! I'll take that as the first plausible reason for considering that 5W-30 might be of lesser value in some Ford and Honda engines. Now, what about that area of technology that holds that the more viscous oil will keep moving metal surfaces better isolated from one another than will lesser viscosities? I am not overlooking that adding molybdenum to light oil can do more to prevent wear than increasing viscosity.

mrdetailer

Talk to Valvoline Technical support. The sludge test for all grades of oils is 90 hours with mo more than 50% thickening. However Ford has required a higher standard. 120 hours with no more than 50% thickening. This has been incorporated into most oils. In order to meet these stringent tests a lot of synthetic is added to the oil.

The Valvoline tech guy told me "It's one tough little oil."

In spite of that, after the warranty period would I switch to 5W-30.

 Yep. The new SL grade is a much improved oil over the SJ rating.

On my vehicles I run 3 different grades. 5W-30 in the Mazda (noisy lifters basically mandate this), 10W-30 in my Dodge, and 10-40 in my Subaru. You do what works best for the car.

americanflag

as long as it is a quality oil (see the link to the Amsoil link above). If that's the case, then 5W-30 now? Also, why all the concern about the warranty anyway? The engine could go 36k on sesame oil. It's getting to 100k and above that is the issue IMHO. But I wonder why Ford threatens the warranty if you use a different grade? Is it just the kneejerk dealer reaction to any question to answer with "it could void the warranty"? Or do they really have a concern about using lower viscosity oils?

Mr Detailer, that's interesting about Ford having high requirements on sludging. I like to hear that being a proud Ford owner myself! If Ford didn't make such a great car I wouldn't care about it so much and wouldn't worry about the oil. It'd be Jiffy Lube as with my past cars.

My question remains, is there any evidence 5W-20 offers any benefits other than higher gas mileage? Any evidence it offers added protection benefits? I did not see anything on Blue Oval News.com about the 5W-20. You would think Ford would issue a statement with all the controversy.

BTW, had lunch today at Chick-fil-a; they say their fries are healthier because they are cooked in a peanut OIL formulation. I don't know about that, but at least they taste good. See, with french fries it's easier to tell which OILS are good - just use the taste test

according2me

bretfraz

What controversy? I can't imagine Ford issuing some sort of press release about 5W-20 because from their perspective this issue is non-existant. They've issued the specs, tested the products, ensured it works with older engines, and issued the directive to go 5W-20. What more do they care?

The problems rest on the shoulders and conscious of Ford owners. Your engine has a 36,000 mile or 3 year warranty, right? Well, at mile # 36,001 you are no longer Ford's problem, legally. Don't want to run the risk of warranty exemption? Then maintain your car exactly as Ford tells you to, nothing more, nothing less.

If I had a very long term goal for my car lifespan then following the warranty to the letter would be low on my priority list. I'd use the factory maintenance schedule as a rough guide, that's all. Reason being is that Ford's interest in me and my car has a very specific and short lifecycle. After that, I'm on my own.

zueslewis

it IS Ford's responsibility.

The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Improvement Act addresses vehicles after typical warranty periods.

The Uniform Trade Commission (UTC) is a Federal guideline that insists on an assumed "warranty of merchantability", meaning your car or truck should not be prone to "significant" defects or issues.

fleetwoodsimca

Our current controversy seems to center around a lack of information concerning the motivation for developing a "counter intuitive" grade of oil into a mandated usage item. We want to be assured with verification that the use of 5W-20 is wholly appropriate over the extended life of the target engines, for say, at least 150,000 miles. We want to hear the scientific specifics underlying this seemingly radical turn of events. With that information not forthcoming, other than as platitudes, what choice do we consumers have but to distrust the motivation of the involved vehicle manufacturers?

americanflag

gsleve

Thinner motor oils such as 5W-20 or even 0W-20 are becoming more popular these days and are even specified by some OEM's (FORD & HONDA) on new 2001 cars.

Although these oils are promoted as "energy conserving" they generally trade a gain of less than 0.1 MPG in Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) for shorter useful engine life.

FORD which has previously designed cars to have 10 year or 150,000 miles life has reduced the mileage life expectation to "beyond 100,000 miles" on vehicles that are operated on SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil.

HONDA only claims "useful life" as 7-years or 70,000 miles in EPA certifications for their CIVIC which uses SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil, while the previous model that utilized SAE 5W-30 Motor Oil was certified for 10 year or 100,000 mile durability.

Since both HONDA and FORD Warranty their NEW cars for ONLY 3-years or 36,000-miles the reduction in engine life expectancy is not a factor.

By contrast Mercedes-Benz recommends use of ONLY Synthetic Motor Oil that is at least SAE 5W-40! This is a recent increase in recommended viscosity from SAE 5W-30. Apparently customer research indicated that engine longevity is more important to typical MB customer than fuel economy.

Even more important is the High-Shear High-Temperature MINIMUM specification in SAE J300. In tables below you will notice that there are "two" SAE 40 specifications, one with minimum HSHT value of 2.9 cP for Automotive Oils (SAE 0W-40; 5W-40; 10W-40) and the other for Heavy Duty Oils (HDO) (SAE 15W-40; 20W-40; 25W-40; 40).

This double specification is at insistence of heavy duty engine manufacturers who have required HSHT viscosity limits consistent with good engine durability in high-load, severe service operation. HSHT value of 3.7 cP or 27% more viscous oil at 150ºC (300ºF).

Yes, a 27% increase in viscosity makes a difference between Automotive engine that lasts 100,000 miles and Truck engine that lasts 1,000,000 miles!

When you consider that most Automotive Motor Oils are ONLY 3 cP, while our

americanflag

http://www.suv.com/news/2000/fordfuel10.31.00.html

(About 3/4 down the page is the 5W-20 information.)

fleetwoodsimca

gsleve: Great stuff, there. Could you give us the URL so we can all go there and read the entire article?
americanflag: the URL you cited was very good, and goes back to the origins. We need yet more!

americanflag

it pretty much confirmed what those like Zueslewis have been saying about the oil being chosen because of CAFE consideratins.

But I am wondering, does 5W-20 offer superior cold start protection (to say 5W-30) or a heavier oil? Also, does 5W-20 offer more protection from engine deposit buildup than a heavier oil? It sounds like they also tried to imply these benefits in the press releases, just wondering if there is any truth to this?

fleetwoodsimca

I think they were in a position where they had to "answer up" to the EPA, and they succeeded. Jumping to the end point, I am still convinced that (for example) my 4.6L V8 Ford Corporation motor will do better on 5W-30 than on 5W-20. If evidence mounts that proves this wrong, I'll desert this position like a rat leaving a sinking ship.

americanflag

http://www.usatoday.com/community/chat/2002-04-26-healey.htm

You ever wonder what is wrong with us? We could be posting links to pictures of beautiful women instead of references to 5W-20 oil. Oh well, my Mustang GT is pretty beautiful too.

fleetwoodsimca

Effete Mr. Healey actually said little to nothing on this topic, although he had the courage to give an opinion-- based on a detached guess.

swschrad

that's what the "5w" part indicates, the oil gets up there fast. notice it is the same in 5w-20 and 5w-30. if these oils use the same lubricating base, there is no difference.

if one uses a 5w synthetic base instead, you have better flow as it gets colder.

there may be some improvement in the additive package to antifoam, etc. but you would expect that to get into all the oil grades of the same manufacturer for advertising purposes. "Now DripCo oils all have V-666, the amazing additive that actually tightens loose bolts for less noise!" that sort of thing. any other additive that would contribute to keeping a film on the moving parts, seems to me, would be in the viscosity-adjustment area, and that only goes to "20" in the 5w-20 oil.

without dozens of independent lab tests to peruse, my gut shot is they just want thinner oil that doesn't evaporate so they can average some fraction of a mile per gallon over millions of cars to make CAFE look better.

when the oil is better, they will start saying again that engine life is estimated to be "over 150,000 and approaching 180,000 mean miles." that instead of ford's blurb, quoted earlier, that engine life is "in excess of 100,000" miles with 5w-20, which is a 50% drop from previous engineering.

fleetwoodsimca

"...which is a 50% drop from previous engineering."
May we say, previous lubrication? I have no reason to truly think that the engines designated for the thin stuff have been reengineered for the purpose. Rather, I must skeptically assume that only the recommendation (mandate?) has changed.

swschrad

except with the government and bean-counters intruding into engineering areas, I happen to be old-fashioned and stiff-jawed enough to expect REAL engineers to back them out of the building in fear for trying to cause their machines to fail early.

to cave in on something that costs a third of engine life, per the earlier quote, for the benefit of accounting trickery in CAFE is, for me, allowing pinheads who don't know the business to make all your decisions... and that's farming out the engineering to the untrained. that is an engineering decision. and a wrong one.

now might not be the time to promote my mediation business, "have cattle prod, will negotiate..."

zueslewis

farm out the beancounters and those managerial types who have no real experience but somehow are great "managers" - maybe good bs artists, I guess.

Either way, CAFE standards are met/exceeded, Ford and Honda get their government bonuses for being good little companies and the consumer gets stuck with vehicle that will no longer go 'til 150,000 if you follow the rules.

I say to heck with it - rip the tag off your new mattress, yell "FIRE" in a theater and run 5W30 synthetic in your car and run it 'til the wheels fall off!

Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!! (man, it's late)

swschrad

I'm gonna tell Tom Ridge on you :-D

zueslewis

swschrad

and then somebody else gets an idea, and there's another, and sooner or later they look at mine --

((ooops))

opera_house_wk

I'm sure the argument is that more people do a lot of short drives. Everyone has always agreed that starting an engine produces more wear than driving around. So the thin oils might help that and get you the CAFE numbers too. At the same time, commercial vehicles that have the engines running all the time have used "heavy duty" oils. Rod and main bearings will show a heavier wear from the thin oil being compressed out. I haven't seen any information that these surfaces are getting any larger. If they some day went to needle bearings (like they do in 2 cycle outboards) then I would be in favor of very thin oils.

americanflag

protection to 5W-30. It seems obvious it is thinner, so wouldn't it protect better at the start, where supposedly 80% of engine wear occurs? How can a thicker oil like 5W-30 be as thin at start up as 5W-20? Wouldn't the 5W-30 have to be heated up to thin out to the same degree as the 5W-20?

rerenov8r

Hint: At lower temp it is the max viscosity...

americanflag

so I thought I would include a picture of one of the vehicles this 5W-20 is being recommended for to try to cheer everyone up. How could they do this to such a beautiful car (BTW this is also a great website if you like Fords):

http://bradbarnett.net/mustangs/caroline/bridget_caroline.jpg

fleetwoodsimca

...about motor oil after seeing that gorgeous Mustang! But let's say it one more time:
5W-20 and 5W-30 are both "5 weight" oils that have slightly different additive packages in them for "stretching" the viscosity as the oil heats up to running temperature and even beyond.

cieszynski

I took my 02' LSE to my local Lincoln Dealer for its 10K "free service". They do use the 5W-20 oil. I spoke to my service rep. and asked if I could use Mobil 1 5W-30 instead of the recommended 5W-20. He told me no problem. Just bring it in next oil change and he will put it in.
So I bought a case of six at Walmart and will start using it next oil change. He said Mobil l meets or exceeds Fords specs. I'd like to hear what your service rep. says if you asked to use 5W-30 oil. Should be no problem.

americanflag

I was planning on taking in some Mobil 1 5W-30 for the next change and I was wondering how Ford would handle it. I am very curious as to how the engine will sound with the Mobil 1 5W-30 versus the garbage disposal sound of the 5W-20.

fleetwoodsimca

Although I would not ask anyone for permission to use my choice of oils, I did talk to a Ford shop foreman about motor oil and this 5W-20 business. He thought a large part of the predictable success for the Motorcraft product is the fact that it is a synthetic blend. I always do my own oil and filter changes, thus assuring that I get exactly what I want, when I want it, and done to my personal satisfaction.

andre1969

...so sorry if I'm outta date here. As for trusting the owner's manual, well, that cost Chrysler owners a lot of transmissions in the '90's when the manuals called for Type 3/7176 fluid, but the trannys really needed Type 4/9196!

As for thin oil, I remember some friends of my Granddads bought a brand new Pontiac Bonneville in 1982, with the Buick 231 V-6. It sounded like crap with the specified 10W-30 oil, so after my grandfather put in straight 30, it sounded fine.

Incidentally, I had a used '82 Cutlass Supreme with the 231 that I ran with straight 30. Always ran fine. When I found out that 10W-30 was supposed to be just fine, not to mention all the advances they supposedly made in oil technology, I figured I'd try it, since I also heard it would get slightly better gas mileage. Well, soon after I made the switch, that engine decided it didn't want to live anymore. It was probably about to die anyway, but I always wonder if switching to 10W-30 made any difference?

rerenov8r

Very unlikely that ANY switch in motor oil would KILL a motor "soon after".

Typically, lubrication related failures take quite some time to manifest themselves. Thus the "infamous" "drive it with no oil whatsoever infomercials".

Did the motor actually SEIZE? Did compression on one or more cylinders fall dramatically? Did camshaft lobe(s) get rolled over? Three years ago I gave away a well maintained 81 Regal with the 3.8L V6 with over 150K miles and last I heard it was still serving the charity that drives it economically with nearly 200K miles. Anecdotal evidence isn't very useful...

americanflag

1) You are a purist and like to be able to hear and feel the friction of the metal rubbing against metal in your engine;
2) You lease your car and so will trade it in after 36k miles or less so engine life doesn't matter;
3) You still don't know that the moon landings were faked, you believe the government about Roswell, and are generally a gullible person.