The New 5W-20 grade - Good or Bad for your engine

rerenov8r

Why not use straight 50 weight?

Gee, I would think YOU of all people now that ALIEN life forms actually came up with all these new fangled W-style oils!

zueslewis

I use in my 5.0?

andre1969

...around the 72K mark, my Cutlass Supreme lost all oil pressure. I started it up one morning, and the oil light came on and didn't go off, so I shut it off after a few seconds. I ended up pushing it into the garage with another car, and one of my friends changed the oil pump gears. There were a lot of metal shavings in the oil, and he said that they wore the pump gears down.

I drove it for maybe another 1,000 miles, and then unloaded it for $400. I only paid $800 for it to begin with, and honestly, the previous owner's care (or lack thereof) was probably the main culprit. I'd always thought though, that maybe the engine was about to go anyway, and the heavier oil might have nursed it along for awhile longer, and masked some of the damage. Once I switched to that lighter oil, the problems it had all along might have come out. It also developed a serious appetite for oil, taking about a quart every 200 miles.

Didn't the early 3.8's have some kind of deficiency in their lubrication? Something about too many right-angles that cut down on pressure, or something like that? I've heard from several sources that they were prone to failure between 70-90,000 miles.

1997montez34

Will using 5W-30 instead of 5W-20 in my '03 Accord be beneficial to engine life in the long term?

If you do regular 3000-mile oil changes consistently, does synthetic have any benefit over dino oil?

zueslewis

would be better for longevity purposes.

I also like synthetic over regular oil and you can extend the frequency to 4 or 5K, if you want and still be well within manufacturer's recommended intervals.

americanflag

and just as an FYI you can have them put vinegar and OIL on your sandwiches there. I definitely recommend this, it makes them a lot better. Anyway, the guy said they don't use 5W-20 OIL because it is too watery.

edwardn1

And thats in the winter. I guess SAE50 or 60 would suffice in the summer. Heck, maybe ATF is to thick for my transmission, and I should use straight SAE 50 or 60 thickened with STP. Why should I follow any manufacturers directions. And I'll have 10w30 on my salad, can't have any of that thin 5w20 stuff. HA! HA! Yep, the salad dressing analogy makes sense to me. HAPPY NEW YEAR

opera_house_wk

Wear on the tires, plugs, water pumps, transmissions, belts, seats, alternators, floor mats and frankly just about everything but the engine. Every once in a while I admit to putting 10W-40 in for a couple months in the winter. Thanks for letting me know I got it all wrong. Wish thy made seats that lasted over 200K. Happy New Year Everyone!

zueslewis

to run in a miled up V-8? My Mustang's 5.0 has well over 150K on it - I've used Castrol 20W50 in my hot rod motors, but I've never owned a car with this many miles - suggestions?

andre1969

...told me to put 20W-50 in my '67 Catalina. My Granddad's answer for just about everything was to just put straight 30 in it, but that was mainly with bigger, older engines that were built to sloppier tolerances. I used to run straight 30 in the Catalina, but then at idle once it was warm (like waiting at a traffic light), the oil pressure would drop too low, and the idiot light would sometimes flicker. Haven't had that problem with the 20W-50 though.

zueslewis

and my older "wiser" brother ran 20W50 Castrol in all his rides, but I just wanted another opinion.

I figure with the right oil, a quart of Slick 50, a quart of Bardahl and some STP oil treatment thrown in for good measure, it'll be just fine.

bretfraz

I'd prolly run something like Schaeffer's Micron Moly 10W-40. SL rated, ILSAC GF-3, DCM 229.3. I'd moly up that pup and run 'er till she died.

swschrad

and it's lasted a long time, almost 50 years.

oh... were you talking about cars?

zueslewis

I'm rebuilding the motor in April, so it only has to last through three months of regular driving and 4 autocrosses.

bretfraz

http://www.schaefferoil.com

They have distributors nationwide and a number of dealers in rural areas serving the farming industry and others.

I get my stuff from a guy in Texarkana, Tim Mills. (870) 772-7061 or (800) 737-1747

zueslewis

bretfraz

But I only hold a grudge for 15 minutes.

zueslewis

What are your thoughts on dual remote oil filter systems and with an add-on oil cooler, do I need a stronger oil pump?

With all the system, I'd be adding 4 quarts to the oil capacity.

edwardn1

...in a 74 Dodge Dart Sport 225 slant six with almost 200,000 miles, but then, it burns much too much oil if I use 10w30,10w40 or SAE30. I feel 20w50 is ideal for a high mileage oil burner with LOOSE TOLERANCES. But in a late model speced for a 5w20 or 5w30 it is the recipe for disaster, especially if there are a lot of cold weather startups.

fleetwoodsimca

I have determined (almost to my satisfaction) that I will run 5W-30 in my Mercury 2002 4.6L V8. If my choice is ill-advised, it's going to cost me big time. Obviously I am not totally convinced that there isn't some cryptoengineering logic that I am failing to apply. I've got probably a few months to go before the change is due, so I am beating the topic to death. I'm reserving my case of Shell 20W-50 for my garden tractor.

rerenov8r

Everybody knows that the owner's manual is JUST FOR WIMPS!

Real men are BORN knowing what is RIGHT.

It is AN EMBARRASSMENT to MANLY engineers everywhere that any automaker does ANY testing of oils and such -- REAL MEN JUST KNOW what is best.

Hell, don't y'all just get a GOOD FEELING IN YOUR GUT when you're walking up to the Auto Parts Store that you are connecting on a SPIRITUAL LEVEL with the very dinosaurs who GAVE THEIR lives so many eons ago to NOBLY LUBRICATE YOUR MOTOR! (fer cripes sake DO NOT buy anything at one of those EFFEMINATE discount stores like WalMart or Costco!)

edwardn1

...then does that explain purple oils such as Triton and the discontinued UNION LONG DISTANCE PURPLE. Of course I'm talking about BARNEY and his ancesters. Such a great sacrifice. Fleetwood, I wonder what your climate is like and how many cold morning starts are involved.

bretfraz

I think that's an excellent choice, sir. I read a post at Bob's site where Pennzoil did testing with Ford on the 4.6L. Ran the motors to over 150,000 miles on 5W-30 dino with no problems. Tore down the motor which showed minimal wear.

americanflag

I know Ford says that 5W-20 is fine but remember the government said Gulf War Syndrome wasn't a problem for years. And the National Guard, that is just one weekend a month and two weeks a year. Tell that to the Florida boys that just got called up.

I'm just saying it is your 20k plus vehicle now, not Ford's. See, we bought it and now it is ours. So I think that we have the vested interest in seeing it lasts a while.

Hopefully you bought a Ford and not a Honda but that is another thread so I am not even going to bring that up here.

edwardn1

an engine that originaly called for it. If it was originally speced to use 5w20 FROM ITS BEGINNING, then I would use 5w20 unless given a well educated and researched reason otherwise. If the engine was once recommended 5w30, then changed to 5w20 WITHOUT ANY MANUFACTURING CHANGES MADE, then and only then would 5w30 be a good choice. Keep in mind that the 5w20 would be more thermally stabile due to its lower VI improver content.

swschrad

any day now I expect a letter from Ford with new stickers to use in place of my V8 chrome, that will say "tecumseh 5 HP SnowKing." this would of course be related to claiming after the fact by three years that they really sold a quarter-million SUVs with lawn mower engines, and their CAFE should thus allow them to build a million gas hogs now to catch up.

but even if I get them, I am > NOT < putting a 50/1 2-cycle mix into my gas tank

coming along whistling down the alley and telling us suddenly that we need to use 5w-20 oil instead of 5w-30 is the same trick, different corner.

mudflat

I have an elderly 626 that's never had anything in it but Exxon Superflow 20W-50 since the first oil change. It has been to Chicago three times during the winter, and many places in between. It now has 140K on it and still runs like a champ. I change oil and filter every 5K miles and use whatever filters I can get cheap--even the dreaded Frams. I typically have to add about 2-1/2 quarts between changes, but don't know the actual consumption because the valve cover gasket has been leaking for six years and I've been too lazy to change it. The plugs, which have 65K on them are clean, as is the tailpipe. I tend to drive with a heavy foot and can still run the car up to 112 without needing five miles of road to do it.

zueslewis

the valve cover gasket is $10 and made of rubber!! You don't even need gasket sealant!

Come on, for the love of your car, change the gasket!

fleetwoodsimca

Listen to zueslewis!
rerenov8r: That black gold probably did not come from dinosaurs. petroleum is likely a regenerative resource forming constantly from the remnant primordial methane deep in the Earth. Real men don't abuse dinosaurs-- not now, not ever!

zueslewis

it's fox! See, I love dinosaurs, too.

opera_house_wk

85W90 isn't thick enough for me. That ad guy must have spent his hours staring at the Chrysler building. A name that conveys feeling! Not like Syntech that only appeals to those who think they have an engine when they buy a rice burner.

americanflag

be introducing in March? Do you think that it will be a significant improvement over the Motorcraft 5W-20 blend? Would it be enough of an improvement and offer enough protection that it would serve as a safe alternative to the 5W-20 blend? 0W-20 will be approved by Ford for their vehicles which call for 5W-20. It seems that Amsoil, although they will be offering 5W-20 in a synthetic, has their doubts and still prefers 5W-30. Amsoil does not seem to be pulling their punches about not liking the 5W-20. For those of you who are familiar with Amsoil, how reliable is their research and opinion?

bretfraz

No question in my mind that a full synth is better than a blend. Most of what I've read states that blends ain't all that great to begin with.

Amsoil sure has their supporters and they're a company that seems to know what they're doing. Their opinions are their opinions so consider the source. As I've mentioned before I'm not crazy about their MLM and subsequent high prices but the product is very well made from what I've gathered.

americanflag

feel it would be detrimental to the health of the engine to use 5W-30 instead of 5W-20 when the manufacturer calls for 5W-20? (That is excluding any warranty considerations.)

swschrad

running hard on a hot day, for instance. depends on clearances and oil flow out of the galleries to the surfaces where oil is needed on moving parts. that is not something Joe Bumperparker is going to be able to determine, alas.

edwardn1

...even those that don't say so on the label. Call an oil co. and speak with an application engineer, not a PR MORON. Also, a 5w30 will have a more volatile base grade as the additional V.I. Improver has a small effect on the low temp pumping viscosity, thus a lighter base grade has to be used. This is why it has a lower fire and flash point. In addition, a thicker oil removes less heat from the heat generating points of the engines, so at the points of friction it acts, to some degree, like a thinner oil. The thicker oil flows less freely, and removes less heat and thus transfers less heat it to the oil pan, oil filter and other areas exposed to air and coolant flow. Keep in mind that the camshaft, connecting rod and journals, big and small end bushings or bearings are cooled by the OIL not the coolant.

fleetwoodsimca

My unofficial knowledge of the GM basis for requiring 10W-30 to replace America's sweetheart weight (10W-40) may be a parallel argument to the probable(?) Ford/Honda position. I was told that GM determined the elastomers used to extend 10 weight oil out to the equivalent of 40 weight were prone to gumming in the engine. GM felt that shorter elastomers, such as those that would extend 10 weight out to 30, were not so prone to getting "sticky." I heard these tales in 1985. I had a hard time with this upheaval and feared for longevity problems. But I have never been one to keep a vehicle long enough for long elastomers to get me-- yet. I am now one of the many who fear the future under 5W-20... deja vu?

edwardn1

...that it was GM that made the switch from 10w30 to 5w30 so they went the other way, so to speak.

edwardn1

...that it was GM that made the switch from 10w30 to 5w30 so they went the other way, so to speak. Thats because the 5w30 has a wide spread requiring a very heavy dose of VI improver, which is what you probably meant to say. VI improvers are not lubricants but they reduce an oils tendency to thin when heated. Very heavy doses as found in 5w30 and 10w40 can coke on the rings and cause problems. Of course synthetics get around this problem with less of a need for VI improver. In fact, most synthetic 10w30 oils have little or none.

fleetwoodsimca

I didn't anticipate anyone recalling that; however, I have an explanation from the same engineering hearsay I quoted from before. GM further determined that stretching 30 points was going too far, but 20 or 25 points was okay. So now we have a paradox due to 20W-50!
In explanation of the physical chemistry involved, it was suggested to think of elastomers as being like a folded up, old fashioned wooden carpenter's rule. As the temperature of the oil goes up, the molecular "ruler" begins unfolding and mimicking a longer chain that equates to heavier oil weight molecules.

edwardn1

...Thats because it takes FAR LESS VI improver to get the spread with the thicker oils. It takes much more in the thinner oils. When 5w30 first got the nod from the big makers, many of the first to be made were synthetic blends. Quaker was one of the few that could make the spec without resorting to a synth blend. This was all back in the late 80s or early 90s. BTW, these oils did not say blend or synthetic on the label. Made them a good buy at the time if you knew about the formulation.

fleetwoodsimca

Synthetic blending combined with no significant change of price then raises the question of just how poor a buy the synthetic oils are, that sell for several dollars per quart! But that is for another forum. Local Ford personnel have told me that the new 5W-20 Motorcraft oil is a synthetic blend. I have no evidence that the selling price is higher than for any other weight of Motorcraft.

americanflag

Arkansas originally and I was an English major in college, so I am pretty clueless when we start talking about stretching isomers and elastomers, etc., although it sounds interesting. So I am trying to understand, are you saying there are advantages other than fuel economy (like engine protection), to the 5W-20?

Also, if this 5W-20 next to nothing oil is so great than why doesn't GM go for it? And what about the Germans? I don't care for their politics but it is fair to say they are good engineers and they make good cars, and they prefer much heavier oil, right?

edwardn1

Yes, the 5w20, all things equal, should be more stabile and less volatile under heat than a 5w30. In response to the German makers, keep in mind that in the 70s and early 80s they recommended straight SAE 40 in the VW Rabbit, scirocco, etc. This was for up to 104degrees F or 40degrees C. THEY MADE NO RECOMMENDATION FOR OVER THIS TEMPERATURE! So here in the Phoenix area you had to park the car all summer or break the "smart German" makers recommendation. The upper limit for 20w50 was about 84F. Go look at an old VW manual and check this out. They have since come to their senses and now recommend more normal grades. I won't speak for ford but I tend to believe Honda knows what they are doing. It should be remembered that engineers have a certain viscosity in mind in terms of maintaining full fluid wedge lubrication , pump up at cold start and other factors beyond the scope of this thread. When we start playing chemist we better have a good reason for our choices. Don't you think that Ford, GM, etc. would like to have the reputation for longivity in an engine that Honda has. Do you really think Honda would throw that away for a mpg increase THAT THEY DONT NEED. Do you think Ford would knowingly shorten the life of their engines with Toyota about to be NUMBER THREE AUTOMAKER and breathing down their backs.

rhmass

I have been reading the debates on the "thin" oil with much interest even though I own none of the cars in question (Honda and Ford).
The 1986 BMW325e which I bought new and gave away in December 2001 at 165,000 miles had always used 20w-50 oil year round as specified by BMW. The car never had any engine problem and it was still running strong when I donated the car to charity. Out of curiosity, I checked the manual of our 1994 BMW which has chart to indicate the temperature range for the oil weight used. It still includes 20w-50 and the temperature range for that weight is from -10F to 105. I have been using either the 10w-40 or 20w-50 in this car (although all synthetic) with no ill effect for all these years. Our new 02 BMW does recommend 5w-30 synthetic now. I am not sure heavier oil will have adverse effect on the engine, at least based on my own experience which admittedly is limited. If anything, I'll use the heavier weight oil allowed (indicated) in the manual. Just my 2 cents.

rhmass

Sorry, I posted the numbers in the '94 BMW manual based on memory, the actual range covered by th 20w-50 oil listed in the book is from 12F to 122 as I checked the book.

according2me

The synth part is group 3 dino (less than 15% usually) mixed with Group 1 or 2 dino. I love the way all these blends are represented. LOL

Synth. Hahaha. Judge Judy rated by the courts.

americanflag

I like what you say about the "smart Germans". If they were so smart, wouldn't they have skipped WWII? Although I have heard from Vets that the level of engineering was incredible in their tanks, etc.
I'll bet they didn't run those on 5W-20! I still am not sure if I am confortable putting 5W-20 on my bicycle chain let alone my beloved 4.6L V-8 in Florida!

BTW, the local TiresPlus chain that does a lot of oil changes puts 10W-30 in all vehicles regardless. How is that for attention to the owner's manual? Since they are an oil change place, maybe they know something afterall, like thicker oil gives more protection. Naw, I'll bet they are just being lazy. But really, it must not be that terrible if they are putting 10W-30 in every vehicle regardless?

swschrad

witness all the folks who fell for the pap that our cuddly buddy Hitler was handing out about how the League of Nations and various religions were torturing the Germans at the time.

and yes, German tanks froze into monoblocks on the Russian steppes, because of oil thickening and fuel congealing as well. they couldn't crank 'em and it wouldn't matter anyway.

sounds like the only ones who should go to that tires plus store are 60s and 70s GM owners and maybe schmucks with the wrong lease and 10,000 miles left on it.....

fleetwoodsimca

that is a significant find, if factual. Just how sure are you that the Motorcraft 5W-20 is not a blend of true synthetic and mineral oil? My point is, that you seem to be indicating the Chevron SL type formulation. In my case, that would "give me permission" to kiss off the 5W-20 and use my vast quantities of 5W-30. Come to think of it, that was my plan regardless! (:oÞ