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The New 5W-20 grade - Good or Bad for your engine
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With regards to your comments regarding a quieter engine, I would ask those of you currently running 5W-20 in a new Ford engine to take a test. Just put 5W-30 synthetic in and listen to the difference. My 4.6L Ford Mustang has less than 5000 miles on it, and the difference after putting in the 30 wt synthetic was NOT subtle.
Before with the 5W-20, the engine sounded very rough and felt like it had only 1/2 of the required amount of oil in it. It was loud and grindy sounding. With the 5W-30 synthetic, the engine has great start-ups and is as smooth as glass. There is no way I am going back to the 5W-20 black water. I like my car too much. Corporate America will just have to suffer.
Why would the engine run so much quieter with the 5W-30? The only reason I can think of is less friction and therefore less wear.
As for warranty concerns, think it through. The 4.6L called for 5W-30 up until a couple years ago, and the engine has had no significant engine changes since (if anyone knows of any, please post them). To void the warranty, first the engine would have to blow up. I don't think that will happen with the high quality 5W-30 synthetic I am using. (I am not so sure if this would be the case with the 5W-black water stuff.) Second, wouldn't Ford have to show the 5W-30 caused it to breakdown? I don't think that is going to happen. And if the 5W-30 did not cause the breakdown, what justification would they have for claiming a voided warranty? Haven't you heard of a guy named Ralph Nader?
I just don't get the warranty concerns. The warranty is not going to help you after 36k miles, when engine problems will most likely occur. The warranty is not the end-all be-all. Every day in life there are risks. One has to choose which risks to take. Running this watery excuse for oil that has a tiny bit of synthetic added so the engine gets just a tad of much needed lubrication so it won't actually blow up is not a risk I want to take.
But if you plan on keeping your car past 36k, taking proper care of your vehicle is the key:)
let's flip out some terms of non-endearment and see if we can get a user-label we can submit to the API for relabelling the bottles of this stuff :-D
notice: must be suitable for 4-year-olds to read off the second from bottom shelf at the parts shop....
"Just say no to 5W-20".
I am not trying to be argumentative but I have not seen one single piece of scientific evidence that would suggest 5w20 is not as good as protecting an engine as 5w30. The evidence I have seen suggests that 5w20 may actually be a better oil than 5w30.
If we were to use 'sound' to judge the effectiveness of engine lubrication we should all be packing our crankcases with sawdust, ala the fly-by-night used car lots...
If any the mechanics, phone answers at Exxon-Mobil, service advisors, et cetera can cite a paper submitted to the SAE or similar OBJECTIVE FINDINGS I would be 100% on board. It just sounds way too "Area 51" that Ford & Honda are in a secret conspiracy to wear out motors...
The standard for passenger cars is considerably higher, at 27.5, but it has been at the SAME LEVEL since 1986, so it patently UNTRUE that the CAFE is continuously adjusted... http://www.ita.doc.gov/td/auto/cafe.html
While their is pressure on legislators to increase the standards, their is also considerable weight behind efforts to keep the standards as relaxed as possible -- http://www.uaw.org/solidarity/02/0402/front01.html
All in all, I think the CAFE argument BY ITSELF does NOT adequately explain the change in lubrication recommendation.
And so is Ford!
My engine sounds very smooth on the 5w20. A quick lube place once mistakenly put 5w30 in it and the sound or refinement of the engine DIDN'T change on bit. I drove it 60 miles with the 5w30 before I realized and had my dealership swap it out for the 5w20. The engine NEVER sounded any better or worse than when it was on 5w20. My 2.5L V6 sounds extremely smooth and refined on the 5w20. Much smoother than any other car or truck I've owned in the past.
Also, where is the so called proof that Ford and Honda have lowered the longevity standards for their engines? Honda isn't going to risk something that stupid just to pick up 1 or 2 more miles per gallon. They have a reputation to upkeep and won't risk that for that small of a mileage increase.
All Honda and Ford, and anybody else, really care about is getting the car past the warranty period!
10) "We Were Engines Once... And Young"
9) "Like Water for Oil"
8) "The Thin and the Furious"
7) "Gone in 60k Miles"
6) "Car Trek: Nemesis"
5) "W20: Landfill Maker"
4) "Lord of the Ring Jobs"
3) "Days of Friction"
2) "Black Water Down"
1) "Catch Me If You Can, Ford and Honda" (I'm using 5W-30!)
Titles that didn't make the cut were "Engine Die Another Day" and my personal favorite: "Mission Impossible 20-Wt"
and
"Planet of the Scrapes"
"Vanishing Point - 20 Weight Oil"
The Good, the Bad and the Ultra-Thin"
Everyone said all the same things back when 5w30 came out and gee, where are all the dead engines predicted by 5w30??????
People can speculate all they want about the perils of 20Wthin oil, but Maple49, ksuwildcat and others are right...there ain't much empirical data yet that supports the fear. In fact the data I've seen so far shows the absence of a problem. Whether that proves ture in the long run remains to be seen. But, if someone who owns one of these engines wants to run something other than 20W, that's cool. It's a free country and their car. That don't mean that the rest of us who also own one of these beasts and wants to use 5Wthin are wrong.
The only thing for sure, as Louis Roukeyser says, "one of us is wrong."
By the way...Maple49, any source for virgin pennziol data?
I hear calls for PROOF from whoever claims whatever. I wonder what would be acceptable in a forum such as this? I have read several statements that are claimed to be authentic utterances and/or writings from automotive industry spokesmen, presumably open to the public. When some here call for "proof," what would they consider that to be?
Here are the reasons I decided to change to 30wt although my car's book calls for 20wt:
1) The Amsoil webpage on 5W-20 which was very critical of 20wt oil. Amsoil is in the business of making superior motor oil. They also offer a 20wt oil. But their position on 20wt is clear, they do not like 20wt and recommend against it. Do you think Amsoil, a manufacturer of a top brand of oil and also without a reason for bias,
might be a good resource on the topic? Here's the link again, check it out:
http://www.syntheticoiltech.com/oil/jdupp/ford5w20.htm
2) My conversation with the tech at Mobil 1. Everyone wants to rewrite my conversation with this engineer on the tech line. But he said do not use 5W-20 or Mobil 1 synthetic 0W-20 or 0W-30. He said they were too thin and their purpose for being was only fuel economy (CAFE). Again, I consider Mobil 1 an expert on oil and take their advice seriously.
3) Very important: I can find NO EVIDENCE that running 5W-30 is DETRIMENTAL in any way other than slightly reduced fuel economy and horsepower.
For example as per the link I posted earlier, Honda only requires the 20-thin in the US. Their exact same cars in all other countries get 30 wt. And Ford's exact same engines that once called for 30wt now call for 20-thin. If it 30wt was okay then, it should be okay now. I'll err on the side of safety and a proven track record rather than fuel economy.
4) Common sense. In life and in science there are tradeoffs. What is the tradeoff for the extra fuel economy of 20-thin? I will guess engine protection. And what do I lose if I'm wrong? Just fuel economy that is too microsopic to measure on an individual basis.
5) The advice of some of the most consistent and educated posters on this site. I will not name names (Zueslewis, Bretfraz, among others). Some of these gentlemen have worked with cars much of their lives and in many different capacities. And they pretty much all recommend against "the thin".
If this is not enough, I really don't know what more you could want. My first-born child? To see the actual nail holes in my palms? How much proof do you need?
Engine oil is like dental care. You need to use some common sense. Can I prove in a week that flossing is good for your teeth? In a month? In 10 years when my engine has 200,000 plus miles on it, I'll be back to post. Oh wait, there are already a bunch of engines like that that that have been running 5W-30 for years. So I guess you don't need to wait for proof. It already exists (for the efficacy of 5W-30 that is). So just memorize the Federally mandated Magnuson-Moss Act pertaining to auto warranties, take a deep breath, grab a pair and put some 5W-30 in your engine
http://www.syntheticoiltech.com/oil/jdupp/warrantylaws1.htm
I'm not convinced though that 5w20 will be bad over the longterm for my engine. Nobody has any proof from any independent labs to state one way or the other on 5w20. Until I see actual independent proof.
Your amisoil link doesn't say that Amisoil doesn't recommend against 5w20, so I don't buy your answer on that. All it says is that the dealerships can't do anything if an owner switches to 5w30. Amisoil doesn't come close to recommending against 5w20. They do try to sale their own 0w30, but never do they recommend against the 5w20. In fact if 5w20 is so bad why would they risk their reputation by producing a 5w20 oil in the first place? I think you read what you wanted to hear into their website. They wouldn't risk their reputation by producing an oil they don't believe in. Going by their site then even your 5w30 is worse than their 0w30, so maybe you should switch to 0w30?
Here is a clip from their site:
For those consumers that still must use a 5W-20 oil, even after reading this informative article, AMSOIL does manufacture a 5W-20 synthetic motor oil, called XL-7500 5W-20. It is a 7500 mile/6-month motor oil. AMSOIL's 5W-20 synthetic motor oil provides outstanding wear protection and increased power, performance and fuel economy in high and low temperatures and also meets and exceeds the Ford and Honda specifications.
For even better performance and protection we recommend using AMSOIL's Series 2000 0W-30 synthetic motor oil. This is the top performing AMSOIL Motor Oil for gasoline powered light trucks and passenger cars. It uses race-proven technology and provides unsurpassed fuel efficiency and better wear protection than other conventional and synthetic motor oils. It is a 35,000 mile/1-year change interval motor oil. Use it in conjunction with AMSOIL's Super Duty Oil Filter's that specify a change interval of 12,500 miles/6-months, whichever comes first.
Seems to me the "oil side" technical folks would have little reason to verify the WEAR CHARACTERISTICS. They are no doubt expert in the COMPOSITION/QUALITIES/BENEFITS of their particular products, the better to recommend their product over a competitor.
The AUTOMAKERS are in the best (the only?) position to recommend/discourage use of an entire GRADE of lubricant.
I feel confident that the AUTO manufactures would NOT recommend a grade of lubricant that was TOO THIN. They probably found that the 5W20 was ACCEPTABLE and the fuel economy was better than with 5W30. Let me be clear about "acceptable" -- I mean I believe they found that WEAR, under all situations was NOT NOTICIBLY WORSE (a difference of LESS THAN 5% in total metal particles) with 5W20 than with 5W30.
If the Exxon-Mobil techline rep has evidence that there is MORE than 5% more wear with 5W20 compared to 5W30 I would be MOST surprised.
To return to the "floss" analogy -- Call up the makers of "Glide"or "Butler" floss and ask 'em if you should use "wide tape floss" or "regular narrow floss". Unless they have been sitting in a dental hygienist's chair they really DO NOT have the objective evidence that one is "too thin"... INSTEAD call a university that has recently completed a study of the effectiveness of each in patients. That study MIGHT reveal some differences(or more likely find that either is effective, so long as done properly). BTW The results of regular flossing/lack there of should be readily apparent to a skilled hygienist or dentist after about a week, all other things being equal. If one were to revisit a dental professional after STOPPING or STARTING regular flossing they'd see the difference in as little as three days or different behavior...
Did you see the article on SUV's poor safety record in the WSJ today? You could also argue that automakers would not make and sell a vehicle that was not safe.
I'll keep thinking for myself on this one.
Wildcat, my goodness, it even says in the part of the article you posted that they recommend the 30 wt over the 20 wt! See the last paragraph, "For even better performance and protection we recommend using Amsoil's series 2000 0W-30 synthetic motor oil." Guys, 0W-30 is not 20wt.
But right in the section of the Amsoil article you posted, it says:
"For those consumers that still must use a 5W-20 oil, even after reading this informative article, AMSOIL does manufacture a 5W-20 synthetic motor oil, called XL-7500 5W-20."
"Even after reading this informative article" - sounds like they don't like it, and they do make it.
if you aren't getting the right info from J&J, butler, or the rest of them, you aren't talking to the right folks.
same thing with oil. everybody wants the business. nobody wants the warranty claims. and by the time you have three successive lousy oil analyses done, it's too late.
what we have are dueling agendas... one for CAFE fleetwide on cars produced, and one for owners who want to run their cars as long as possible without major repairs. not all of the agenda bullet points overlap. and I frankly don't care about the ninetieth decimal point in mileage on my engine, I don't want it to crap out before 150,000. Ford doesn't care after 36,000, and wants to see me back before 150,000 with my checkbook.
so I'm going to take one from column A, one from column B, run my 2000 ride on warranty-magic 5w-30, and that's the way it's gonna be. ford wants me to change, show me the benjamins.
Seriously, after reading what Amsoil said I couldn't get to Autozone fast enough to buy some 5W-30. Then Mobil 1 confirmed it.
Another interesting point Amsoil makes:
http://www.syntheticoiltech.com/oil/jdupp/AutoIndustry'sBestKeptSecret.htm
The idea is that the reason the auto industry has not gone to synthetic is because it would make the cars last a lot longer, hurting new sales. And for most consumers, that is fine, I just really like my Ford and want to have the option to keep it a while. I am a Ford fan, that is why I value my car and wish to take excellent care of it. If I were leasing without intent to buy, sure I would use 5W-20.
For some of you, if you do plan on keeping your car or putting on high mileage, I am glad you have so much confidence that Corporate America is looking out for your best interests. I have an idea for a movie you should see - that Russell Crowe/Al Pacino movie. I think it was called "The Insider".
I just don't understand how AmericanFlag won't believe or trust what a car company says, but will trust anything and everything an oil company wanting to sell its product will say. Amisoil promoting their product by dogging other products or companies is purely advertising and shouldn't be blindly trusted without independent testing to prove everything is true.
If you really believe everything Amisoil says then I'd hate to see what all you believe in the newspapers or rags setup beside checkout stands at grocery stores.
ONLY their 0w30 has the longterm between oil changes and is the one they contiually push in place of all their other oils. I would assume they push it only because of the longer time period between changes and the increased cost vs their other oils. It appears their 5w20 would perform just as well as their 5w30. They even admit in a paragraph that if an manufacturer suggests a weight of oil there is NO advantage in using a thicker weight of oil instead of the oil recommended by the manufacturer. Hmmm...thus one could assume nothing is probably gained by going from 5w20 to 5w30 and especially since it has been proven that Ford 5w20 is extremely close to most synthetic 5w30 oils.
I think it is truly a cost cutting measure, period. To recommend that you use synthetic, they would have to factory fill synthetic. An basically this would increase the cost of filling new engines by about 400%.
Besides, I'm ready to get rid of a car long before the engine fails. It's all the plastic bits, creaks and groans that get me.
They've already got enough planned long term annoyance in most cars to get many people to move.
Of course, I'm driving an 87 Buick everyday, suprisingly squeek and rattle free. (Or I'm losing my hearing, LOL.)
TB
Most cars could run on olive oil and still limp through 36,000 miles - after that (but not according to the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Improvement Act), the manufacturer could care less, it seems.