The New 5W-20 grade - Good or Bad for your engine

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Comments

  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    that 10W-30 is good for every engine?
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    that oil change place buys 10W30 in huge bulk amounts, with no regard for your car. I don't think it's detrimental either way (what weight you're using, within reason), but it's not good customer service.

    I've seen a place that had bins/spouts for 5W30, 10W30, 10W40 and 20W50, and they all sourced from the SAME TANK!! (Q Lube, Medford, OR)
  • according2meaccording2me Member Posts: 236
    It appears my 15% group 3 may be low. Look here, there is a motorcraft (Conoco) entry. According to this forum a Pennz rep said their 5w20 was 70% group 3.

    The Castrol also has a good dose of moly. Lots of info for 5w20 users. Think I'll stick with my 5w30 mobil 1


    http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001020

  • tbonertboner Member Posts: 402
    That weren't frozen to death on the Russian Steppe (sp?) were destroyed be superior numbers of inferior designed allied tanks.

    The Germans had great engineers, but a diminishing industrial base and poor leadership at the top.

    TB
    I use oil in my cars, LOL
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    don't put any in until what you have is all gone :-D -- car care advice courtesy of The Onion.. they're on the Internet, they must be right
  • tbonertboner Member Posts: 402
    That's how my wife handles gasoline, LOL.

    TB
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    I am wondering if this might be a superior option to 5w-20 blend or 0W-20 or 5W-30 synthetic?

    I just reread my post and am editing now to say I know that the above question sounds pretty nerdy, but hey, this is the oil forum so I think I can be excused!
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    I thought I would pass along. I have not confirmed this to be true and would be interested if anyone knows for sure:

    It said that Honda ONLY recommends 5W-20 for its cars in the US (because of CAFE requirements). In all other countries Honda recommends 5W-30 or 10W-30 for the exact same engines! Now who wants to use 5W-thin??
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    yes, it can now be proven, they want to choke the yanks off the planet. We Have The Proof! and they get all haughty because THEY signed the Kyoto pollution accords and WE didnt......

    or maybe, just maybe, CAFE is unique to the US and that's what we deserve...
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    I'm still using 20W50 in my Mustang!

    What about after I rebuild (bore/stroke) the engine?
  • cdavidccdavidc Member Posts: 10
    There is a virgin oil analysis post on bobistheoilguy.com that is guite interesting.It is in ithe virgin oil analysis site found in the oil anaylsis forums link
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,064
    I quit dealing with Firestone because of their practice of putting 10W-30 in everything. At the time I had an '89 Gran Fury that had been an ex-police cruiser. Well, the owner's manual called for 15W-40. The first few times I took it to Firestone, I reminded them to put in 15W-40, and they said fine.

    Well, they changed management, and things went downhill fast. I used to take the car in first thing Sundays to get the oil changed, because they were quick and cheap. Both of those advantages wore off, as prices creeped and customers piled up, and they had trouble keeping employees. On one Sunday in particular, there was a long line because the mechanic didn't show up. Finally he did, with a huge hangover. That should've been my first sign.

    The second, however, was when I reminded the manager, who was writing up service tickets, that the car takes 15W-40. "We don't stock that", she says. "We put 10W-30 in everything".

    I asked her about cars that take some other weight, she got mad and said "look, we don't have the time to memorize the oil requirements of every single car out there!"

    I never set foot in a Firestone store again after that.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    I've seen that at Jiffy Lube.

    I like Wal-Mart - no you can't get your transmission rebuilt there, but when I ask for Castrol 20W50 for my Mustang, they go take bottles off the shelf and charge me the same $18.99 or whatever it is.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    5W-20 blend, would you be 100% okay with 0W-20 Mobil 1 synthetic instead?
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    above zero, I'd go with the mobil 1 5w based product just because I'm an old crank and I end up paying for anything that fails early. and I hate that....

    my recollection is that mobil decided to offer the 0w based product for easy flowing in cold climates. that's good engineering sense. using it in the arizona desert in august is not necessarily good sense to me.
  • bill731bill731 Member Posts: 16
    That part about the mechanic showing up with a huge hangover reminds me of a grease monkey I knew back in 1948. His name was Joe and he did drink.

    Joe told me, " when I was getting hired they asked me do you drink? I said yes.Then they asked do you drink on the job? I said no, if I am drinking I won't be on the job. "

    This was at an auto dealership and they hired him anyway.

    Bill
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    0W-20 sounds like a toilet bowl cleaner. I sure wouldn't want to pay any big bucks for it.
  • opera_house_wkopera_house_wk Member Posts: 326
    A friend of mine was a shop forman for a machine shop. This guy is "old school" and at over 80 still works. He told me the guys who were real alcoholics, not showing up for days, always did the most precise work. He never understood why and they didn't drink on the job.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    They said they would run 5W-30 rather than the 5W-friction. Mobil 1's opinion is good enough for me. Remember my link to Amsoil and what they said. I am at 4700 miles, at 5K I take in the Mobil 1 5W-30 to the dealer. Mobil 1 said the warranty would not be a problem. You heard it here first. If you still want to run the 5W-thin than good luck! If I were a in car sales I would thank you ;)
  • according2meaccording2me Member Posts: 236
    I think that's a wise choice. I posted this in an Accord forum, but it's apropos here as well.

    Most of the 5w20 manufactured now is in the 8.5 to 9 viscosity range at 100deg C. The Mobil 1 5w30 is manufactured to be at 9.7 at 100deg C.(very low in the 30w range)

    20w SAE range is 5.6 --> 9.29 @100deg C

    30w SAE range is 9.3 --> 12.49 @100deg C

    A little info is a dangerous thing. LOL
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    telling you not to run 5W-20 but instead to run 5W-30, then I think it is time to listen (unless you are leasing your car).

    Hopefully I will have time tomorrow to take my car to the Ford dealer to have Mobil 1 5W-30 put in. I'll bet they don't object at all, I'll let you know what happens.
  • tbonertboner Member Posts: 402
    the people at Mobil could be telling you to run 5W30 because Mobil doesn't sell 5W20.

    Just speculation, not many facts to back that up.

    TB
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    I'm shocked! I feel so used!
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    might be made to maximize their own profit.
  • zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    I'll just be glad when I've got a vehicle new enough or when my engine's rebuilt so I can justify $4 a quart for oil.
  • maple49maple49 Member Posts: 66
    All of the specs I have seen as well as virgin and used oil analysis seems to support that 5W20 oil is very good oil. In some cases better then 5W30 from the same brand. I have seen no evidence that I will be harming my engine by running quality SAE SL 5W20. I think the conspiracy theories and premature wear warnings are unfounded.
  • bretfrazbretfraz Member Posts: 2,021
    Unfounded? Perhaps. But its a helluva risk to take with a $30,000 vehicle.

    It's your car and your money. Only time will tell if 5W-20 protects as well as other well-known products.
  • lobsenzalobsenza Member Posts: 619
    I spoke to the engineers at Ford while I was on a VIP tour at the Wixom plant. They said they did EXTENSIVE testing (approx 200,000 miles of standard use) prior to recommending it be used in an engine.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    say? That they did it for the CAFE brownie points? The cigarette companies said for decades that smoking wasn't bad for you. Did that make it true? Do you think they really believed it? Of course not, but it took some smoking gun memos before the public caught on to the deception. Same with the Government and Gulf War Syndrome. And what is believed to be a major contributor: a government Vaccine. Hmmm.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    discussion with the Mobil 1 technician. I did not ask him if I should change from 5W-20 Motorcraft blend to Mobil 1.

    I told him I had decided to use Mobil 1, and was wondering whether to use the Mobil 1 0W-20 (developed for use with vehicles specifying 5W-20) or Mobil 1 5W-30.

    You see I was wondering if maybe the 0W-20 might be good as a substitute. But he said it would be in my engine's best interest to use Mobil 1 5W-30. So his recommendation had nothing to do with whether Mobil 1 was going to get my business. If he had wanted to stay on the safe side he could have said the Mobil 1 0W-20, which will be approved by Ford and Honda. He was honest enough to tell me what would be best.

    BTW, I also asked if I should run the Mobil 1 0W-30. He said even that was too thin, stay with 5W-30. He also said don't worry about the warranty, that Mobil 1 would back it up if I used Mobil 1 according to the manufacturer's recommended frequency and had problems. But they know there won't be problems.

    Guys, this is Mobil 1 talking, I think they know something about oil and aren't influenced by CAFE like Ford or Honda.

    Also, again, go to the Amsoil website. They don't like 5W-20 one bit either, and they do offer 5W-20 in a Amsoil synthetic. But they make it plain they prefer the Amsoil 5W-30 weight by far for cars calling for the 5W-20 by the manufacturer.

    I know America is land of the disposable, but I need my car to last a while. If you've seen the new 2005 Mustang you know why. I like what I have and want to keep it.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    that I would be Sludg-O-Matic, thanks for the amplification.
  • mudflatmudflat Member Posts: 47
    What weights are they running at Datona, Indy, the Paris to Dakar rally, and Le Mans?

    If it's 5W-20, I might become a believer.
  • bretfrazbretfraz Member Posts: 2,021
    I can tell you this, what oil formulations are being used by top NASCAR teams is a tightly held secret. Ain't no stuff comin' outta no store bought product, that's fer sure.

    Most teams have a supply relationship with lubrication mfr's who bring in specially designed oils for specific needs. What the suppliers tell people and what is actually going into the engines are two very different things. On most teams there are only a couple people who really know what that stuff is.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    economy, 5W-20 slightly increases horsepower. If you think about it, it would stand to reason the two might go together. So they may use a thin oil in certain race cars, I don't know.

    But as an ordinary vehicle owner, my issue is engine protection. Don't they work on and rotate and replace race car engines all the time? I don't have that luxury with my car, nor do I have the budget of the racing teams. So I don't see much relevance between what the racing teams are using for oil and what I use in my street legal commuter that I hope to put 200,000 or more miles on. Blowing a race engine is probably not that unusual, but if I blew my engine I would be unhappy to say the least.

    Another example would be air filters. I understand some race cars don't use air filters because their drives are short and it reduces air intake slightly. That's fine, but for obvious reasons, I am not chucking my air filter anytime soon either!
  • knapp3knapp3 Member Posts: 112
    Maple49, Have you by chance come across any virgin analysis of Penzoil 5w20? I'm looking, but haven't seen any.

    I think you are right about what you say. And while my vehicle is under warranty, it's 5w20 all the way. So I'm looking for the "best" I can find, if there is such an animal. After warranty, I'm not so sure. Then I'll probably jump into the debate. Thanks.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    if you used 5W-30 instead of 5W-20? Why do you think this? Do you have it in writing from the dealer?
  • knapp3knapp3 Member Posts: 112
    Yes, I do! 1st off, the Escape warranty book specifically says that the use of oil other than what is specified in the owners manual will void the warranty. Ford does not list any alternative oil weights besides 5W20 for the Escape. I know my local Ford service manager both professionally and personally outside of his job. When I asked him if it was okay to use something other than 20W, he looked me right in the eye and asked why I would want to chance it during the warranty. There was no hesitation in his body language.

    I've heard all the arguements against 5W20. Believed them enough myself that I actually put Mobil 1 5W30 in my Escape at 10K miles. But then I started reading posts on the Escape-Central.com site about several blown V6 Duratec engines with anywhere from 10-30K miles on the vehicles. Hell, the Escape has only been on the market since '01 and people are reporting blown engines already?!?! Now mine has got Castrol 5W20 in it.

    I know people will say 20W is too thin and isn't good for engine longevity, but that's all personal speculation at this point. And if they want to run a heavier oil in THEIR vehicle, great. But before I get too concerned about getting 150K or 200K miles out of my Escape, I want to get the full benefit of my 36K warranty.

    And quite honestly, I haven't seen any bad oil analysis of 5W20 oil either. I had Blackstone run one on the Motorcraft oil I changed out at 10K. It wasn't a great report. TBN was down to 4.5 after just 3,250 miles of use, but all wear numbers were low, and Blackstone said the engine was past break-in and doing well. Other oil analysis reports of 5W20 oil on the Maxima.com and Bobistheoilguy web site also show good results with Castrol and Motorcraft 5W20 oil.

    Maybe 5W20 oil will prove to be too thin for an engine's own good. But while it's under warranty, Ford will pay the price for an engine failure, not me. Once it's out of warranty, I'll re-evaluate my position...and might just switch to 5W30 oil. Right now though I won't chance it. The darn thing was expensive enough without me deliberately voiding the warranty too.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    warranty, they say that about everything! But I also think the consumer has rights and recourse and protection through the US legal system.

    An example: I was told by the dealership in no uncertain terms that using a K&N air filter would void the warranty. But after talking with K&N I decided this was not the case. I also learned just for good measure that Ford sells K&N air filters in their auto parts department! The even dye them Ford blue, a beautiful color IMO.

    It says in my owner's manual that use of any additives will void the warranty. But when getting my oil changed (to 5W-30 BTW) at the Ford dealer, I noticed they sell oil and fuel additives. So does the use of these additives void the warranty? Not according to the dealer.

    Mobil 1 technical support told me on the phone to use 5W-30 in my 2003 Ford Mustang that calls for 5W-20. Mobil 1 said they would cover any repairs that resulted from use of the oil not covered by the warranty. If Mobil 1, who obviously deals with this every day, had concerns about using a different grade they could have recommended their 0W-20 that is approved by Ford - but tellingly they did not. On the Amsoil website it says that using a different grade of oil absolutely does not void the warranty as long as it meets certain industry requirements (see previous link earlier on thread). Amsoil says the manufacturer may try to claim it will void the warranty, but that their claims are not legal.

    So I have Mobil 1 and Amsoil telling me it doesn't void the warranty to use 5W-30. And I would like to see Ford show that using Mobil 1 synthetic 5W-30 caused engine failure. I am not an expert but I believe the consumer has rights too, it is not all just Ford or any manufacturer's decision.

    And what about the quick change oil places? As mentioned earlier, many of those use only one grade of oil for all the cars they service. If they were voiding warranties with all the cars they service, I think they would be in trouble. But they don't seem to be and they can't be too concerned either, or they would be using only the grade of oil the manufacturer called for.

    It's your vehicle. As for my $25K 2003 vehicle, I care about it too much to run the 5W-water in it, and I am letting the Ford dealership personally put in the 5W-30 for me while I watch. By 36K mniles I think the health of the engine will already be determined, and I don't want a burned out engine on my hands.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    The more likely scenario is your engine will survive that long, and then you are on your own with only your engine maintenance practices to protect you.
  • knapp3knapp3 Member Posts: 112
    I plan on running an oil analysis at 20K and then again at 30K. It'll be interesting to see if any wear trends emerge with 5W20.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    with the engine? It seems to me the only way to really know would be to put 250k on an engine using the oil.

    With regards to warranty, Mobil 1 told me the main thing is to change the oil at the recommended intervals.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    Let me throw a monkey wrench into your equation:
    What if the unusual reporting of blown engines in Ford Escapes proves to be happening mostly in engines kept on a diet of 5W-20? Who yuh gonna call? >:o]
    I'm going to run 5W-30 in my 2002 4.6L V8 Merc Mountaineer. The book says to use 5W-20.
  • rerenov8rrerenov8r Member Posts: 380
    If I call "random company X" they are gonna hook me up with THEIR BEST PERSON??? Highly doubtful. When I worked for a very large computer company I got calls from OTHER folks inside the company that thought I was "the right person" and I wasn't -- there were other folks much better qualified to answer SOME questions...

    Anyhow -- is Exxon/Mobil gonna cover your motor? Tell you what, when they start saying "Follow OUR recommendation & WE'LL pick up the cost of any oil related problems" THAT'S WHEN I'll follow their PRINTED recommendation.

    Till then, I'll stick with FoMoCo.
  • swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    we want cars that run right and last. they want to beat the EPA shell game and get out of warranty cheap. that's the basic argument here, and if ford can't convince us that using maybe-oil can't get it done, the word will get out and they will lose sales. maybe not to honda, which is also pushing maybe-oil, but to somebody.

    ford needs to lay it out on the table, and tell us what fails, sooner or later than with the 5W-30 recommendations they have been making on the same engines, and if it's sooner, cover the costs if they are going to require us to use maybe-oil.

    my book says 5w-30 in my 2000, and ain't changing to maybe-oil.
  • ksuwildcat001ksuwildcat001 Member Posts: 97
    It sounds to me like the Modil person was commenting more on the fact that run 0W any weight wouldn't be bad since he suggest staying away from both their 0w20 and their 0w30. That to me doesn't sound like bad mark on 20 weight oil at all.

    I've had my 5w20 oil analized twice and it has came back looking great both times. I have a 2001 Mercury Cougar with the 2.5L V6 and 24,xxx miles. She sounds perfectly refined and run wonderfully on the 5w20.

    I'll stick with it until something substantial than just chatter on the net proves it is bad.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    Chatter on the internet? How about this:

    1)Amsoil's website where they clearly do not like the 20 weight and recommend against its use

    2)The fact that Honda only requires 5W-20 in their cars sold in America, the exact same cars in all other countries call for 5W-30

    3)The Mobil 1 technician said do not use 0w-20 or 5W-20 but instead use 5W-30 because the 20 weight was developed only for fuel economy and CAFE considerations

    4)Earlier on this thread it was shown that Ford reduced mileage expectations for their engines from 150000k to 100000k after changing to 5W-20

    5)The link I posted to Ford's news release where they state their reason for changing to 5W-20 is fuel economy and pollution benefits

    6)At the Ford dealership the mechanics told me they refer to the 5W-20 as "water"

    7)My car sounded terrible with the 5W-thin. You could hear the friction, it sounded like a garbage disposal. Huh-uh. No way.

    Just say "NO" to 5W-water is MHO.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    why are you reading this then? I have gotten some excellent information from the people on these oil forums. I have learned about: the value of synthetic oil; that Mobil 1 is one of the better brands; that it is not good to frequentily change the brand of oil used in your car; the recommended oil change intervals for synthetic vs dino; that frequent short driving distances are hard on your car and your oil; the history of the 5W-20 oil; which oil filters are best and most cost effective; the importance of changing oil early at the first 500 miles; some of the problems with oil additives; when not to use synthetic, and I could go on and on. Anyway, good luck!
  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    5W-20 has to be tougher since it has to pass the same oil requirements and has significant amounts of synthetic added.

    If you're going the higher weight route I would at least go with a 50-50 mix of conventional and synthetic or go completely syn to get the best protection.

    You can bet that if I put in a different weight oil and the engine quieted that I would keep in a heavier oil. Oh, wait, I did that. My Subaru now runs 10W-40 for exactly that reason. I do loose about 2 mpg, and possibly a slight amount of horsepower, but the much smoother engine is worth it to me.

    My local lubrication place that I have used for years said that they saw a video where the 10W-30 DID gum up the engine and clearly recommended against its use, so I wouldn't recommend going any heavier than 5W-30.

    Using 5W-30 on my Mazda really quieted my lifter noise on starting in cold weather.
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