The New 5W-20 grade - Good or Bad for your engine

zueslewis

I just took my PT Turbo to Wal-Mart and had Castrol Syntec 5W30 put in - at 600 miles. I used a MOPAR filter - don't want the guys at the delaership freaking out about me using a Purolator or something when and if I need a warranty repair.

americanflag

extreme on this thread, I don't think 5W-20 motor water will make your engine blow up two hours after you put it in. But I do think the rational for developing the thinner formula was for fuel economy, not engine protection.

If you are a marketing exec for a major auto company, why not have your spec's recommend an oil that will not provide as much engine protection? Besides the financial CAFE benefit, people turn over their cars faster. So now a car lasts 8 years instead of 10. Heck, that just means more new auto sales, especially if brand loyalty is a factor.

And the guy buying the new car will never know the difference, because his holding period is probably on average say 3 years. It is the lower income guy who buys the used car from a first or second owner who will really pay the price. And why should the car company care about him from a profit making standpoint?

The auto companies have probably done studies that show that most cars end their lives not because of the engine wearing out but because of body damage, the AC going out, transmissions on the blink, etc. So why worry if the oil shortens the life of the car?

An example is these new three bladed razors that cost $3.00 a piece practically and last three days. That is called planned obsolescence and it can be very good for business.

swschrad

I find out some tinstar sheriff with a tie and a telephone takes five or more years of use out of a $37,000 product for me, I don't go there any more. it may be their bonus for making the changeover work, and off to another 9-month gutshooting assignment, but I do plan on running my cars more than a couple years.

so maybe somebody in the office tower ought to do some surveying before such a goofy move.

as for three-blade shavers that shave twice and nick ever afterwards... I found in 1970 a device called a Norelco, in most other countries Phillishave, and rarely do I scrape with bare steel any more. I get 10 or more years out of a Norelco electric razor with two blade changes. so Gillette nicked themselves.

fleetwoodsimca

I never see a Gillette product but what I recall an article or two I read that said they donate money to anti firearms organizations. Then I walk on by to the Schick offerings.

inky4

Mobil 1 with SuperSynTM 0W-20 is engineered specifically for Ford, Honda and any other vehicle where a 0W-20 or 5W-20 engine oil is recommended. Mobil 1 with SuperSynTM 0W-20 exceeds API SL/CF, ILSAC GF-3, and the performance requirements Ford WSS-M2C-153H specification. This full synthetic formulation provides both exceptional engine protection while providing more efficient operation as indicated by improved fuel economy or greater power when compared to more viscous products

fleetwoodsimca

5W-20 Motorcraft oil at Waldomart for $1.77 per quart! Perhaps this inflation of price is part of the game as well. I prefer the weekly CSK Auto Parts sales on 5W-30 oil with rebates that get the prices down below a buck a quart. The brands vary.

cdavidc

I think it will be out next month. The product data sheet is available now at the Mobil website

edwardn1

...didn't you notice that the 5w20 Motorcraft oil at Walmart is a semi-synthetic? Considering that, the price is excellent. What other synthetic blend can you buy for that price? This could be the equivalent of supertech oil filters as far as being a bargain. I bet Amer Flag is on the keyboard right now with a 5wTHIN response. BTW, I work at a dealer in the Phoenix area where it gets and stays way over 100degrees most of the year and daytime highs frequently 115 and more in the summer, and am still watching and waiting for an oil related failure in service area, from the use of 5W20, which is required by warranty in many of our vehicles.

fleetwoodsimca

I think it will be a long wait! I see no reason for early failures from 5W-20, but the jury is out on the longevity of motors run on the thin-and-runny, versus the slightly less runny 5W-30. When you change at 3K intervals, the double price of Motorcraft parasynthetic is just that-- 2X the price. I note you saying the evil word "required." Please elaborate!

ksuwildcat001

Fleet,

A lot of the Ford/Mercury/Lincoln dealerships include free oil changes with purchase for 2 years or 24,000 miles, so the cost might not be 2x depending on the situation.

I know ALL the routine maintenance is FREE on my 2001 Cougar for the first 24,000 miles or 24 months. Oil changes, tire rotations, etc.

Average that out and my future oil changes paid by me are pretty danged cheap.

americanflag

inventions of all time IF it improved fuel economy and horsepower as much as it does, while still preserving engine life as much as a thicker oil. Why then don't I think 5W-20 is one of the greatest inventions of all time? Well, let me say I do believe it slightly improves fuel economy and horsepower...

fleetwoodsimca

Surely, time and competition will bring the price down. With proper barrier protection assured, 5W-20 (gulp!) could become the future prevailing designation in the market. I'd like to use up my current stock first, however.

americanflag

I believe with time the 5W-20 will be repudiated as a safe alternative to real motor oil.

edwardn1

...if it wasn't a part synthetic, which they all are whether of not they say so on the bottle. To get cheaper in price they would likely have to go straight dino.

swschrad

is it the label, or the oil? percentages, please, in type 12 points or larger on the front in nice contrasting colors, so we can read it to our lawyers when they call in the middle of the night whining about nothing to do, and put them to sleep.

americanflag

actually gets just a tiny bit of minimal lubrication. I feel like an Ethiopian with a tiny bit of rice in my wooden bowl to subsist on. Thanks for nothing!

fleetwoodsimca

I discovered this weekend that VALVOLINE is bottling 5W-20, and it is for sale. The label was acutely lacking in info that would depict the brew as semisynthetic.

americanflag

5W-20 at 7-Eleven and similar outlets under the name of Evian. Apparently it will be sold in a clear plastic bottle and everything.

tboner

...Naive

zueslewis

maltb

After the host deletes your post can you put the results up on here?

mountainowner

Yes, sure. Is there a rule I don't know about? Apologize in advance to the hosts.

mountainowner

I wanted to post this information for all to review and comment on, regarding two Amsoil 5W-20 Oil tests I have just received back.

Background information:
4.6L Ford V8 with 31,000 miles, K&N Airfilter. Factory oil removed at 1,000 miles, Amsoil 5W-20 used exclusively with Amsoil filters, all changes at 5,000 miles increments.

Test 1: Amsoil 5W-20 with 5,100 miles, 0 make up oil, Amsoil oil filter, K&N Airfilter;

First number is the test oil, second is the 'Universal average' number.

Amsoil 5W-20
w/5100 miles Universal Avg

Aluminum 3 5
Chromium 1 1
Iron 15 24
Copper 4 13
Lead 0 2
Tin 0 1
Molybdenum 2 25
Nickel 0 1
Manganese 1 1
Silver 0 0
Titanium 0 0
Potassium 0 0
Boron 5 39
Silicon 19 13
Sodium 2 7
Calcium 2372 1562
Magnesium 329 520
Phosphorus 760 771
Zinc 1119 953
Barium 0 1

TBN = 6.0

Tested Values/Values Should be
SUS Viscosity = 53.8/53-62
Flashpoint = 385/>355
Fuel <0.5%/<1.0
Antifreeze = 0.0%/0
Water = 0.0/<0.05
Insolubles = 0.5%/<0.6

Test 2: Virgin Amsoil 5W-20 Sample

Virgin
Amsoil 5W-20 Universal Avg

Aluminum 1 1
Chromium 0 0
Iron 2 1
Copper 0 0
Lead 0 0
Tin 1 1
Molybdenum 1 7
Nickel 0 0
Manganese 0 0
Silver 0 0
Titanium 0 0
Potassium 3 2
Boron 5 7
Silicon 2 3
Sodium 1 1
Calcium 3029 2429
Magnesium 22 87
Phosphorus 751 744
Zinc 849 850
Barium 0 0

TBN = 12.0

Tested Values/Values Should be
SUS Viscosity = 54.0/53-62
Flashpoint = 440/>355
Fuel -/<1.0
Antifreeze = -/0
Water = 0.0%/<0.05
Insolubles = 0.0%/<0.6

maltb

Every time I have tried to link another forum that has info that edmunds doesn't, my post goes bye-bye.

mountainowner

I deleted the previous post myself, but added a post with all the test results.
I had read many negative posts regarding 5W-20 oil and threfore I had these 2 seperate tests run by an independent lab to answer my own questions regarding the use of 5W-20. The board has been helpful to me and I wanted to provide this to help the other members and readers.

swschrad

is that antifoam or something?

arcticman

Is it because of the K&N air filter not working as good as say an oem? Seems I remember someone on this board who is a strong believer in NOT using K&N for this very reason. Since hearing about this observation I have noticed that the oil in the vehicle I have a K&N installed doesn't appear to stay as clean as my other vehicle that uses an oem air filter (taking into accout equal mileage on the oil). Or is the higher Si simply the result of the Amsoil being able to hold dirt in suspension better than the universal average?

americanflag

whether the K&N lets in more Si is a whole nother thread and a long one with arguments both ways.

But I will say if I was going to run 5W-20 (which I am NOT), I would definitely at least run a high quality synthetic like Mobil 1 or Amsoil.

mountainowner

Due to the Si levels that were reported in this test, I've checked the K&N filter and found that it is not as 'tight' in the airbox as the OEM. The edges of the K&N are thinner than the oem filter. K&N ships foam strips with the filter, but I didn't use the foam when the filter was originally installed, I did install the foam yesterday. The K&N now is alot tighter in the air box, and I'll retest in the future to see if the Si levels drop.

americanflag

A friend of mine recently bought a new Mercury Grand Marquis. The dealership gave them a one hour class on the car.

One thing they emphasized (he told me), was to only use 5W-20. They said be careful of the quick change oil places that don't use 5W-20 when it is called for. They were apparently told that using oil other than 5W-20 would eventually damage the engine.

What do you guys think? Do they know something we don't?

I think they are just trying to establish the dealer as the place to get the car serviced.

fleetwoodsimca

You gotta be right! How could 5W-30 hurt an engine for which 5W-20 is recommended?

swschrad

yeah, I went to the owner familiarization class when I bought my exploder. by golly, if they didn't promote the fact that they can do everything you will need over the life of the truck. not once did they recommend Iffy Lube for oil changes, The Home of the Wilderness AT for tire support, or Ol' Pete on the Corner for engine work.

shocked and surprised, I was. but mostly because I was paged out halfway through to deal with a T3 circuit problem halfway across the country, telling the guys who had the computers and access how to diagnose and tickle the parts.

americanflag

has repeatedly, in emails and on the phone, told me that it is fine and even preferable to use 5W-30 instead of 5W-20.

If you are following the Governments new proposed CAFE guidelines, then you know Ford and GM just wrote the Government letters in response saying the stricter guidelines would really hurt them, while Toyota and Honda (who tend to have a fleet of lighter vehicles) said bring them on.

So if my favorite company (Ford) can get some relief from going to 5W-20, then I can understand them doing that. I just want to stay with 5W-30 for the improved engine protection that I am fairly certain it offers.

swschrad

by using the traditional method of policy lubrication, (5) $10,000 to the appropriate politicians.

and it won't void warranty, only sensibilities.

still preferable to go that route, IMHO

mountainowner

When I took delivery of my 2002 Mountaineer I was surprised at the requirement for 5W-20 oil and during my meeting with the service manager, I asked him about his experience with 5W-20. He told me to use 5W-30 or 5W-20, it didn't matter. I pressed him on his quick answer and he restated his position that I could use either grade. I have been using 5W-20 Amsoil, but wonder what his position would have been if I would have used 5W-30 and had a warranty claim. I've seen the warranty issue of using or not using 5W-20 debated on numerous web boards, but I didn't want to have a problem, so I used Amsoil 5W-20. The oil test I recently submitted to the board was a result of reading all the 5W-20 posts on various message boards. The results of my test was good, and the test lab told me that there was no need to change to 5W-30 unless I wanted to extend my drain intervals. They said the 5W-20 was working fine in my application.

americanflag

information. I am going to do an oil analysis in about a month, it should be interesting to see how the Mobil 1 5W-30 is doing. Also, I am using a K&N air filter, so I will be watching Si levels. It will be great to have some hard numbers after so much speculation.

fleetwoodsimca

I, too, purchased a 2002 M'neer. Thanks for sharing info that a "company employee" allowed that 5W-30 was perfectly acceptable. I talked to one Ford dealership head mechanic, and he was just simply afraid to speak his piece, saying that "probably" the best thing was to follow the owner's manual for each engine and vehicle.

mountainowner

Thanks. I would recommend the test, it will tell you what you want to know. The test lab I used was very quick and they sent the results to someone who gave me an 'english' interpretation of the test results and answered my questions via email. I also did a analysis on a virgin sample at the same time to determine how much the oil had degraded. The total turnaround time from mailing the samples to receiving the results was 6 days.

americanflag

Total cost?

mountainowner

I used Blackstone Labs for the testing and Terry Dyson for the 'english' analysis. I found them on Bobistheoilguy.com. Cost is $35 per test. Blackstone sends you the kit free. Return the kit to Blackstone requesting Dyson Analysis Package #46, and they will email you and terry the results. Terry then emails you his opinions of the test and answers all your questions via email. You will see many of Terry's posts on Bob's page.
Webpages are:
www.bobistheoilguy.com
www. blackstone-labs.com
tdyson@argontech.net

Good luck...

opera_house_wk

This is known to occur in diesels. In doing a little research I came across this statement.

"Cavitation erosion results from rapid fluctuations in oil film pressure. When the pressure in an isolated area of the oil film drops below the bulk vapor pressure of the oil, a small, vapor-filled cavity is formed. This cavity then travels to an area of higher pressure where it collapses with the surrounding oil impinging on the adjacent bearing material. This action can eventually erode the bearing surface.....

Recommendations
Reduce operating clearance; increase gallery supply oil pressure, change to a higher viscosity oil."

Just thought you guys needed another thing to keep you up at night. So, as these engines age they might need a little thicker oil.

swschrad

the oil film would be interrupted by the gaps there, and I seem to remember seeing bearing photos in the service book for my old Buick that showed worn bearings with pits at the edges, as well as an occasional groove in the babbitt metal.

if so, there's your evidence right there. anybody see anything like that in your travels through the galaxy?

fleetwoodsimca

I recall numerous grooves in the copper-tin-antimony soft alloy. I recall pitting as well when replacing babbitt, which is the name of the alloy surface of the big end bearings. That's been a lot of years ago for me. I gave up total tear down and rebuilding as a bad habit. (:o]

alcan

Good habit to kick. Doesn't pay nearly as well as brakes, tuneups, halfshafts, fwd wheel bearings.

fleetwoodsimca

The last car engine I tore down and rebuilt was very mechanical, and non electronic, let me assure you!
Hey, I just read an article that indicates Chrysler Hemi engines are back, BRAND NEW! Forget the crate engine rebuilt stuff. Now, admittedly, there is a pickup truck wrapped around the hemispherical heads, but that's just a detail...

americanflag

For now, Fleet, but I think the Hemi is going to be in a lot of Chrysler cars before it is over.

Also, I am thrilled that Chrysler is going back to rear wheel drive. Of course, this is an old Mercedes idea.

Anyone know what oil the new Chrysler engine is running?

zueslewis

swschrad

it's new technology, they don't need oil

zueslewis

fleetwoodsimca

HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA,OOOOOOHA HA HA HA!