Honda Odyssey Future Models

carfun888

The real reason for a "stripper" is to sell to fleets. Honda doesn't do this which is one of the big reasons resale values are so high. No stripper = no fleet sales = happy private owners!

robertsmx

ANC isn't the only noise insulation media used in the Odyssey. That said, electronic circuitry as simple as that has far less likelihood of failing than, say, weather stripping on the windows or as is the case in one of my friend's Corolla, inside the vents (with closed vents, driving even without AC produces whistling noise).

BTW, I got an noise cancellation headset today, in preparation for my weekend trip! This discussion inspired me, after all!

robertsmx

I think it would be nice to have a model at about the "average price" that a typical consumer pays to buy a car in America. And that average price happens to be about $2K below LX's price tag. So, there is a room for DX model.

Better yet, how about bring over the Japanese Odyssey with Accord 3.0/V6? It is lighter, smaller and should be cheaper (American Odyssey sells as a premium model in Japan).

heywood1

Both Honda and Toyota enjoy high resale values. Fleet sales are mostly the domestics' problem.

ace1000

If the ANC fails, you get it fixed or drive without it.

ace1000

On one of my cars, the display shows the pressure for each tire. When I start up, I see that all of the tires are at 30 pounds. I can watch the pressures increase as the tires warm up. The Honda system is probably similar.

The systems that use ABS to monitor tire pressure can only estimate the difference in pressures and give a warning that one tire may be low. They don't display a pressure for each tire.

ace1000

The latest Consumer Guide mentions that it cost about $300 to replace a run-flat tire with a nail puncture on its long-term test AWD Sienna. The tire had 1400 miles on it. This review is at http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/- 37583

Maybe the estimate of $150-160 for the PAX tire is low. I wonder if the insert in the tire has to be replaced if you drive on the flat tire for any distance. The cost of the tire and the insert is probably pretty expensive.

ace1000

The latest Consumer Guide review of the 2005 Odyssey gave the EX a score of 70 and the Touring a score of 67. The Touring did worse on value (8 instead of a perfect 10 for the EX) and ride.

The Sienna XLE scored 65. The Odyssey did better than the Sienna on acceleration, steering/handling, interior room/comfort, and value. It had the same score as the Sienna for quietness.

jracine

Hi, where did you see this video?

Thanks!

nowakj66

The specs on the 05 Odyssey say it has an "adjustable steering wheel". Is this tilt or tilt and telescope a la Accord?

gjay1170

http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?page_number=5&artic- le_id=261903

carfun888

Toyota sell a LOT of Camry's and Corollas to fleets. The CE Sienna is a perfect fleet vehicle. You don't get high volume without some level of fleet sales.

heywood1

I dare you to find a Sienna CE in ANY of the major rental fleets--or ANY Sienna, for that matter. The rare times I've rented a Camry, it's been a nicely equipped LE--and it certainly doesn't seem to be affecting Toyota resale values negatively.

Do taxi cabs count as fleet sales? I've seen Sienna AND Odyssey cabs in NYC.

bamacar

Here the used fleet sale cars from the different rental car companies say differently about the used Camrys. Even the used fleet Altimas are selling for more than the Camrys. Hertz has actually had a couple of used Accord LXs (rarity at a rental car place). The Hondas sell for 1000-1500 more than a Camry LE with the same mileage.
They also have 2004 Siennas for sale used but they are LEs/XLEs not CEs. They have never had a Odyssey.

scienceman

dare you to find a Sienna CE in ANY of the major rental fleets--or ANY Sienna, for that matter. The rare times I've rented a Camry, it's been a nicely equipped LE--and it certainly doesn't seem to be affecting Toyota resale values negatively.

I saw a Sienna LE being returned just ahead of me at a Hertz rental car in St. Louis just last month. And I have rented Camry LE's on several occasions from Alamo/National in Albuquerque and Philadelphia.

thumper

I think the local Dollar Rent-a-Car here has Siennas. I only saw them in the rental garage on the way to the airport, I haven't figured out whether they were CE's or LE's yet. It does mean that I'll be able to rent one out for a few days to get a long "test drive" out of one before deciding between it an the Ody.

See? Fleet sales are good. (well, I suppose only if you'll earn sales off those rentals)

--> Andy

robertsmx

Finding a Camry or Corolla at a rental agency is almost as easy as picking up the phone, calling the agency and asking for it (I’ve got to do it for this weekend). I have not seen the new Sienna at any rental agency yet, but old ones were found and have rented it once. Never seen an Odyssey though. But then, Honda chooses to limit its fleet sales to less than 2%.

Fleet sale is similar to product dumping, and it does hurt resale values. Just check out a Toyota used car lot and you will find two varieties of Corollas sitting out there. One, privately owned, and the other from fleet. The latter will sell for much less than the former. Have noticed it couple of times (usually they are marked with different product/sales code or whatever the marketing term is).

But, outside of fleet sales, I see a point in offering DX trim, even with less power and basic standard features. No need for 16 inch wheels either. 15 inch would do it.

rorr

"No need for 16 inch wheels either. 15 inch would do it."

Depends on what size rotors/calipers are standard. 15" rims may be too small.

robertsmx

Almost every minivan is wearing 15 inch rim. 1999 Odyssey started that way as well.

isellhondas

I can't remember when I sold my last LX Odyssey. It's probably been a year. Demand for these is NOTHING compared to the higher trim levels.

Trouble is, for every low end model they build, that's one less EX or above the dealers get to order.

I know some smaller dealers don't even bother odering any LX's.

And, someone here suggested a model even lower than an LX??

I guess this may vary in other parts of the country?

rorr

I realize that. Do you know if the rotor size is unchanged for the '05 models? If they are unchanged, then yes, 15's should fit.

eyeblind

There is a review in todays USA Today.

ace1000

I can't understand why people think that VCM is a big improvement. Assume that the average gas mileage is the average of the EPA ratings: 24 mpg with VCM and 22 mpg without VCM. Driving 15,000 miles per year saves only about 60 gallons of gas.

2 mpg is not a big improvement. You could probably save as much or more by driving the speed limit on the freeway. A 50% improvement in gas mileage would be a big improvement. VCM is just one of many small improvements and pales in comparison to some of the other new features.

robr2

I can't understand why people think that VCM is a big improvement. Assume that the average gas mileage is the average of the EPA ratings: 24 mpg with VCM and 22 mpg without VCM. Driving 15,000 miles per year saves only about 60 gallons of gas.

That's true but it raises the bar for all other manufacturers to reach. Further it puts Honda ahead of current CAFE rules allowing them to sell more less efficient vehicles (SUT, future real pickup) without paying a penalty.

heywood1

Wait. What do you mean by fleet? Were these cars that you could walk up to a Hertz counter and rent? Or were they, say, in a corporate fleet? Big difference.

Ok, then. Let me look at this from a different point of view: You say Honda doesn't 'have' to do fleet sales. Maybe they're not able...due to manufacturing limits, or less-than-competitive pricing. Who knows.

I'd choose the Camry every time. I've driven an employee's Accord. It was nicely put together (black dash and steering wheel, of course), but I thought (the sedan) looked like someone backed the prototype in to a wall.

lok888

I hear you. It is about 15% improvement when compare to '04 (25 mpg on hwy) and '05 with VCM (28 mpg on hwy).

bamacar

Hertz public car rentals available to rent today. They rent and sell the cars with 20k miles out of the same building.
 
Anyone can sell to fleet agencies if you have the capacity and are willing to make less in profit to move the vehicles. Even Ford is trying to get themselves out of the fleet business to stop hurting their resale values.

nematode

The 225/60TR17 Dunlop SP Sport 4000T DSST OEM on my Sienna AWD are $191 at tirerack.com. The Bridgestone B380 RFT also fit and are $211. I'm not saying they are cheap but they are both cheaper than $300. In fact the price has fallen from $300 to below $200 within a year. I suspect by the time I need to replace mine they will be closer to $150 a piece.

robertsmx

When was the last time you associated a big heavy 7/8-passenger mover with 255 HP with fuel economy rated at 20/28 mpg? To put this in perspective, Nissan Altima with its 250 HP engine is rated at 19/26 mpg. Would it be better if you didn’t save 15%? Sounds even better since Odyssey gets its output using regular grade gasoline.

To put this in perspective, here is how a 12% fuel saving stacks up...

A: At 20 mpg, with regular grade fuel ($1.75/gallon), 12K miles a year, total fuel cost: $1050
B: At 20 mpg, with premium grade fuel ($1.95/gallon), 12K miles a year, total fuel cost: $1170

C: With 12% fuel savings on regular grade fuel... $938

Doesn't like a huge improvement, until you spread it over five years. In that case, your savings...
$560 over scenario "A"
$1,160 over scenario "B"

1997montez34

I haven't seen anythiong regarding the 3rd row windows. Do they still have a power operation to open them to a vent position?

scienceman

Doesn't like a huge improvement, until you spread it over five years. In that case, your savings...
$560 over scenario "A"
$1,160 over scenario "B"

You make a good case with your analogy. I'm just wondering why the thing weighs more if the newer steel is supposed to be lighter. Where are those extra pounds coming from? It's also interesting that Toyota can get the Sienna to nearly the same mileage without VCM. Probably because the Odyssey is tuned for more power to move all that weight around. Another thing I'll be waiting to see before I'm sold is real world mileage reports from the magazines. Since EPA numbers are based on emissions I think, I don't trust them as much as I trust Consumer Reports real world mileage--especially since the odyssey has three catalytic converters which act to significantly reduce its emissions.

Right now the 04 Sienna beats all the competition in real world mileage according to Consumer Reports.

andrewtran71

No, you can't do anything with the 3rd row window at all.

robertsmx

The new steel may be lighter, but there is probably more of it now. Features also add to the weight. The difference between LX and Touring is about 200 lb.

As far as mileage is concerned, Sienna and Quest are rated with premium gasoline, and Odyssey will get you the rated horses with regular. That, by itself would account for 10-15% in savings. Based on ratings, on the highway, Odyssey w/VCM is currently the fuel economy leader regardless. We will have to see how that translates in the real world.

BTW, I’m not sure what you meant by EPA estimates being based off emissions. They are different measures!

lok888

So are they fixed? No power or even manually? They look fixed to me because I don't see any hinges on the 3rd windows.

ateixeira

I bet if VCM turns out to be reliable they'll spread it across the board in 2 years or so.

+2 mpg doesn't seem like much, but over the average ownership it pays for itself, plus you get more range from each tank. It'll matter if you ever run out of gas a mile away from the gas station - the VCM model would have made it! )

Is there demand for a DX? I doubt it. The LX still has wheel covers, doesn't it?

If you look at the Sienna the dealer margins are higher on the XLE. You can get a CE for close to invoice but the loaded ones command about double the margin for the dealer.

So it would be like the Easter Bunny. DX on paper, but none on the lots. You'd have to order it.

Not worth it for the little volume it would bring.

-juice

ace1000

"Would it be better if you didn’t save 15%? Sounds even better since Odyssey gets its output using regular grade gasoline."

When discussing whether VCM is a "big" improvement, the only relevant comparison is between an 05 Odyssey with VCM and an 05 Odyssey without VCM. Using an EPA average of 24 mpg instead of 22 mpg is a 9% improvement, not a 15% improvement. At 12,000 miles per year and $2 per gallon, that is only a $48 savings per year or $240 over 5 years.

Real world gas mileage may have a lower difference. For example, with the previous Odyssey the EPA city estimate was closer to what Consumer Reports achieved on its mileage test and what Car and Driver achieved on its 600-mile trip. If real world gas mileage is about the same as the EPA city estimate on the 05 Ody, then VCM may only save about 1 mpg on average.

Every little bit helps, and VCM is a "little" improvement. Making all the new safety features standard without significantly increasing the cost is a much bigger improvement. If you had to pay for these features, it would cost much more than the gas saved with VCM, and these features will protect you and your passengers whereas VCM only saves you a little money. Giving the buyer almost for free these safety features that will save lives is a much bigger improvement than VCM.

By the way the Sienna uses regular gas according to the Consumer Reports comparison.

scienceman

BTW, I’m not sure what you meant by EPA estimates being based off emissions. They are different measures!

This is probably going to catch most people by surprise, but the EPA estimates auto mileage based on tailpipe emissions. That is a fact. You can believe me or you can do your own research. A good start is to read the last paragraph (or all) of the following article.

http://arstechnica.com/news/posts/20040602-3838.html

This is why I only used EPA numbers for comparison sake. The problem is that Honda is getting so good at reducing their emissions that maybe the EPA needs to go to a different method. The results may be skewed for a vehicle with very low emissions.

robertsmx

Isell,
You seem to claim that Odyssey LX is a hard to find and hard sell compared to upper trims. What is your opinion on presence of Accord DX in the lineup?

Juice,
DX could do without wheel covers. ;-)

isellhondas

I didn't claim they are hard to find. We always try to keep a couple on hand. They just don't sell nearly as well as the higher models.

Funny you should ask about Accord DX's. After not selling one for at least five years, I sold two in a row,one month after the other.

VERY slow sellers at least in my neck of the woods.

robertsmx

I used 20 mpg as baseline (not necessarily “EPA estimate”) for non-VCM and used the claimed 12% improvement for VCM. In addition, I threw in the economics of regular versus premium grade gasoline.

Now whether addition of VCM is little or big, remains debatable. Edmunds didn’t provide for the option in the poll though. I see it as another step in the right direction where power is gained but fuel economy is not compromised. Instead, it is improved to a level that could put some midsize sedans to shame.

BTW, my mention of Sienna (and Quest) with premium grade fuel comes from the recent minivan comparison on C&D (June 2004).

robertsmx

So, SULEV/PZEV Accord should get better mileage than ULEV rated Accord! And if they do measure emissions, do you know what exactly do they measure? You made it sound like they focus on the usual emissions tests. How does it work for diesels? I can see emission regulations affecting mileage and engine output, but it is strange to see this thing work in reverse. Both of my Hondas achieve (couple of mpg) better than EPA estimates. So, that measurements appears to be quite accurate!

heywood1

I'm sure fleet sales of Siennas are a minuscule percentage of production.

scienceman

"...And if they do measure emissions, do you know what exactly do they measure? ...How does it work for diesels? I can see emission regulations affecting mileage and engine output, but it is strange to see this thing work in reverse. Both of my Hondas achieve (couple of mpg) better than EPA estimates. So, that measurements appears to be quite accurate!"

The short answer is: 'It's not an exact science.' The number you see, for example is not what they actually calculate. They adjust it with what scientists call "fudge factors." I have to admit that I usually get better mileage than the EPA also. If you have access to consumerreports.org, you will see that they got 30mpg for the Sienna on the highway. But for your first question, "what exactly do they measure?" Well, they take a sampling of air from the room where the vehicle has been running and measure the percentage of certain known emitted compounds like oxides of nitrogen, etc. The same tests are done for diesels, but the "fudge factors" in the equations are a bit different. These equations are empirical, meaning they don't really come from a first principles scientific derivation. They're basically "fitted" equations which mean that the EPA has found them to give "reasonable" measurement of mileage over time. I have a PhD in physics, but I can't really say that I fully understand their methods. As you can see, I'm pretty skeptical of them. So much depends on the driver. In our 1997 4Runner, I get 17 mpg in the city whereas my wife gets 14 mpg. She accelerates to the end of our steet (about 100 yards away) much faster than I do. I hope this has been helpful.

jchan2

I haven't seen a Sienna in a rental lot, but I have seen Camrys, Corollas, 4Runners and Solaras.

sma3

I know that none of the 2005 Odyssey's have a power passenger seat. But does anyone know if any of the trim levels have at least manual lumbar support for the passenger seat? Not having that would be a deal-breaker for my wife. The official feature matrix just says "Passenger Seat Adjustment".

BTW, two issues with the Touring would have me looking into the EX-L (or possibly the Sienna XLE). First, the PAX system's expensive tires. Second, the fact that RES (dvd) and NAV are bundled together. I would probably only be interested in the RES.

We could probably live without the power liftgate of the Touring although the 18" wheels look nicer.

Does anyone know if the 2nd row bucket seats of the Touring and EX-L are the same (aside from the fact that the "plus one" seat is between them on the EX-L)? I've only seen pics of the 2nd row of the Touring and EX, not the EX-L.

Another question... if the "plus one" seat on the EX-L was stored in the lower storage area, where does the "lazy suzan" go? In my garage? Basically, does either the "plus one" seat or the "lazy suzan" need to come out of the car if I don't want to use the "plus one" seat?

I wish Ocean Mist color was available with Ivory leather.

Interested to see what the wood dash accessory that someone mentioned looks like.

Thanks,
Scott

(I've been lurking here since back when bamaboy was throwing us tidbits of info. He was pretty accurate, actually. Check his post #812 and cut and paste from "http" on in the link he provides into a browser (clicking the link will not work). It even had the chrome grill trim. Even more amazing, that the odyssey-2gen.gif first appeared in post #31 (by tsx) back in June of '03. Do a search on the posts for odyssey-2gen.gif if interested.)

aznstuart

Just like the LX CR-V is hard to sell. For 2k more you can get features like sunroof, alloys, tinted glass, so on.

I think the reason HOnda puts VCM in the Odyssey is so they can have the title of best mileage minivan. Just like the Insight-best mileage car in US

ceric

scienceman,
I am surprised to learn how EPA measure fuel consumption. However, I would like to point out that when EPA test highway mileage, they do not maintain vehicles at nearly constant speed. That works against VCM. For people who employ cruise control during long trip, they may actually be surprised by how well the VCM works. You could get much better highway mileage than what EPA tell you. Comment?

jchan2

probably goes either in your trunk area or in the garage.

amc731

I was initially put-off, as others mentioned, regarding the lack of power to the 3rd row windows. After thinking about it, I've concluded that the only times we've opened them were to initially help air circulation prior to the a/c cooling off the car. I've often pitied the kids in the back as I know the hot air didn't flow out as fast back there as it did in the front. We'd then close the windows within minutes due to the outside noise coming in. Therefore, I 'm thinking that the 2nd row windows will simply expedite this process and we'll simply be closing those after a few minutes as well. I also think it's very handy that the remote can open these windows prior to us getting in the car. That alone is a good enough reason for roll-down windows in the second row. I doubt we'll ever drive with them down, particularly since we can open the sunroof.

One last caution for new parents who opt for a brand/model with the auto 3rd row windows -- always ask before closing those windows -- we once assumed all fingers were in and trust me, we won't be doing that again!!

ivan_99

I think the EPA mileage is meant to compare to other automobiles not real world...that you should not expect to get their rating.

About 10 years or so ago, I used to get 26 mpg with a Honda civic. It happens when you run over 5k rpm all day long.

All that being said...you may get better mpg than the EPA states, if you're driving across the flat prairies on a cool day without stopping (for gas, or drinks, or bathroom breaks...or to break up a fight, etc).

So I do think the VCM may be worth it's cost. Can anybody can tell me the cost? If it costs 2K then it may not be worth it. If it is $300, then it will definitely pay for it self (even for leasing).

VCM...How about at $2 a gallon, $3 a gallon...or $5. Anything can happen in the next 5 years. 5 years ago we were all concerned about Y2K and the president's fat girl friend; alot can happen.