I think if anything you are being misleading. I have not seen you hang numbers to the costs of the Prius!!?? We are talking about costs, cents per mile.
If you want to see a civic gasser (14,999) verses civic hybrid 18,867), you could do the numbers and specify your findings. But again, unless the gasser is selling for the same price as the hybrid there is a BE point. And we are talking about the issue of BE, not whether or not all the non essential extras cost more or less. The nexus which no Prius owner has stepped up to the plate is whether or not a hybrid can be had with out all those extras!!?? The silence especially your own (as you indicate you are a Prius owner) is particularly telling. SO if you can not get the Prius without extras then that should be figured into the costs!!??
While John is pro-Prius he (and his website) is a wealth of knowledge and not in any way shape or form what I would call a troll, in fact he answers some of the same questions over & over - saying he is here for his entertainment is his way of putting things in a good light.
Do you think building me up to be a martyr is a wise thing to do?
The info I present is true, and it is documented in extreme detail on my website. All you have to do is look it up. Regardless, the summaries here are more than enough to express the point anyway.
The "debate & entertainment" is another way of saying that there is no reason to worry about the outcome, just provide facts and observe what happens. It is simply a light-hearted attitude.
NOx emissions are extremely high for diesel. They will be cleaned up in the future. So I am genuinely curious how diesel will compete with gas-hybrids. MPG of a gas-hybrid that doesn't require shifting is already a little better than a diesel that doesn't require shifting. By the time the diesel gets cleaner, the reputation for gas-hybrids will be well established. By then, the price will have dropped and the selection/variety increased due to mass-production. MPG has the potential of increasing too. What will be the appeal factor for diesel?
Seriously. I am quite curious. I am rather concerned too. Several comments like "I don't care about emissions" and "why bother shutting off the engine" clearly indicate a lack of understanding.
However you deem the facts, they are still nonetheless true.
About your real world data John, you have never once (that I have read) stated you initial cost for you 04 Prius. I have told you my initial cost for my 04 Jetta GLS TDI...$21,400 +TTT...~$1000 below sticker. So, how much did you pay for your prius? And, do you really think that your Prius os more COST EFFECTIVE than my TDI?
And no, I don't care about the emissions of my car...as long as they pass whatever standards have been set for the area I live in then no, I don't care.
I see you average 47.4mpg...thats ONLY about 3mpg better than I average (I do have to shift, but that is by choice, remember, I sought out a manual).
I live in extreme northern IN...15 miles from the Michigan border, while our climates are not exactly the same....they are very similar.
Ruking.. not sure about John's mileage at those speeds as I think he doesn't go supersonic. I do however have NO choice and travel at 80-85 at times on the NJ Turnpike or Interstate 84. Overall, I average 42 at those speeds in my 04 Prius. I rarely travel any distance at speeds above 85, so I really have no data. I wonder how a Jetta TDI would do when cruising at 80? I would estimate between 38-44, possibly better? Sebring.. you have any idea?
Cruising at 77-80mph (which is my normal interstate speed, I set the cruise) I generally average 47-49mpg and that is even with the air on. It has been as low as 46.8 in 100% hwy and as high as 52mpg, but that was driving at 65-70mpg. I make frequent trips (once a month or so) to Iowa and/or the Atlanta area so I get to check my hwy mpg often.
As I said before...my lowest mpg was 41 in 100% city and 52 has been my highest in 100% hwy. I generally average 44mpg. Yes, my TDI has an advantage over automatics being that it is a 5 speed. I don't have any real-world data on the automatics as I don't and haven't owned one.
Thanks for the information. Quite impressive numbers. Amazing we can't get more of these on the road. Granted they currently spew more pollutants, but imagine if all cars in this country (except SUVs) were achieving mileage numbers like these? We can kiss foreign oil good-bye. As I mentioned before, I'm looking forward to 2006 when the new diesel fuel (low sulphur) comes to market.
We've broached the subject about claims being objective and subjective. You've made claims that diesel advocates aren't being objective, etc. Even though a majority of the diesel advocates see not only the CONS of the Hybrid vehicle, but they also point out the PROS of the Hybrids vehicles. My point is this....
HOW CAN YOU CLAIM TO BE OBJECTIVE WHEN YOU MAKE STATEMENTS LIKE THIS?
"I will FIGHT it to the bitter end..."
When answering a post about CLEAN diesels....kinda throws all of your credibilty about being objective out the window.
My figures seem pretty close to pusterracing's of 41-52 mpg. Of course these figures do not reflect anything close to the miserly fuel consumption that the TDI is really capable!
The point is that I dispute facts. You attempt to discredit, rather than giving a rebuttal.
How exactly is that objective?
The diesel supporters can't even agree amongst themselves. So what exactly is it that you are supporting? The ENGINE, the FUEL, or the POTENTIAL of diesel? For when? And most importantly, for how many?
Remember, I think clean-diesel and diesel-hybrid are perfectly valid solutions.
What I wonder about though is how they will compete. We have an extraordinarily complex economic system, one highly resistant to change. Yet, gas-hybrids are showing the first signs of genuine success regardless of that.
Because this discussion isn't about diesel hybrids..its about diesel cars. And your quote is not out of context, you said you would fight diesel techonolgy as long as it was stand alone without an electric motor.
Since there are currently no diesel electric hybrid production cars, then your sole objective is to "fight it to the bitter end"...and as long as you are fighting it to the bitter end..you cannot be objective.
BTW...you still haven't answered how much you paid for your Prius. Was it over the sticker? Did you pay a premium to have that Prius? It's not a bad thing if you did, since your main concern is the environment and not saving fossil fuels. You believe enough in your cause (environment) to pay for it, I applaud that. but I'm just curious why you don't post.
> you said you would fight diesel techonolgy as long as it was stand alone without an electric motor.
There are some features electric offers that an engine-only system simply cannot compete with... like providing power to the rear wheels without the need for a drive-shaft. Didn't think of that, did you? All 3 upcoming SUVs will exploit that ability.
And being able to crawl along in slow traffic without using any fuel, even with the A/C running, is priceless. Recharging is simply diverted to a far more efficient time, which is also much much cleaner.
There's no reason diesel can't take advantage of that too.
Just checking your spreadsheet calculations for May 04. Your post #3148 in 2004 Prius shows an average of 55.85 mpg. This post says 53.7 mpg, that is a 4% error. My point is if your are going to give such precise figures they should match, or they become an issue of credibility. I thought you said in another post that you were averaging 54 mpg. I did not question that until you brought out all this data which you admit to somewhere around 46 mpg overall. That does not answer the question why you would get rid of a 2001 Prius with only 59k miles unless it was giving you problems. People that are truly interested in economy do not waste money like that. Unless of course you still have the 2001 Prius as a backup.
"Unlike gas engines, diesels consume little to no fuel when the engine isn't loaded."
Vague use of "gas engines". Atkinson cycle engine in Prius can output as little as 16 horsepower without affecting near peak 35% efficiency.
"The VW TDIs consume an average of 250 ml per hour idling, with the accessories turned off. "
Hybrid consumes zero fuel. Hybrids also has ability to recapture energy back from braking. Think how much fuel diesel waste on the brake pads.
"It's a popular belief that a hybrid powerplant is better suited to a diesel engine than a gas engine for those very reasons."
Popular belief? You just describe similar benefits that improves fuel economy for both diesel and hybrids. Diesel and electric motors are in low-end torque but not much horsepower. How would they be better suited?
"Accord 2.2 L iCDTi ..... already meets and/or exceeds Euro IV specs on Europe’s LSD"
It better or get financially penalize by law.
When LSD reach US in 2006, not all gas stations will have diesel fuel. How much extra will those high pressure common rail direct injection engines cost? Even with ULSD (ultra low sulfer diesel), emission of diesel can not match HSD low emission. I think diesel has plenty of uphills over here in US. By 2006, there will be Accord hybrid, Altima hybrid, RX400h, Highlander hybrid, Escape hybrid and probably Camry hybrid on the market offering high fuel economy and ultra low emission, which LSD suppose to offer as well.
By looking at the history, diesel will have a hard time getting accepted in US because gas-electric offer more advantages and has ahead start.
That is what I hinted at earlier. The fact that not all neighborhood stations carry diesel is one reason that prevents sales of diesel vehicles.
How will that change?
I can't imagine a station owner sacrificing one of his/her 3 storage gas tanks to hold diesel instead. What grade would be dropped? And at what point would it be financially worth risking the switch?
Absolutely right. Evolutionary approach like gas-electric will win. A great example is the computer X86 architecture with the need for backward compatibility.
Thanks for the website. It tells me a lot about John and the Prius. And now I know why he moved up to the 2004 and what smart keyless entry is. Sounds cool.... Gary
but imagine if all cars in this country (except SUVs) were achieving mileage numbers like these? We can kiss foreign oil good-bye.
On the contrary, more likely we will kiss domestic oil production good-bye. We import oil not because there can't be enough oil production here, but because the domestic production is not cheap enough (it's no different from T-shirts at Walmart, or any other out-sourceable commodity product). If oil demand drops, and price drops as a result, even more domestics will be put out business. The domestic oil industry went into a tailspin in the early 80's precisely because home insulation and car gas mileage improved.
Local pollution generated by high temperature combustion (the source of both diesel efficiency and the inevitable NOx problem) however is a serious health risk.
I not interested in personal information...I haven't seen any real world numbers as to what people are paying for the Prius, that is what I'm interested in. My point (environmental issues aside) is that it is more economical to purchase a Jetta TDI than it is to purchase a Prius. That is all, I'm not interested in how much YOU make or have in your bank account, or visiting your personal website or anything like that.
I am asking you for real world data on the Prius, which is relevant to this discussion. You throw around numbers like $18k, but everyone knows you can't get a Prius for that, I'm curious as to what real world $$'s are for the Prius.
> more likely we will kiss domestic oil production good-bye
Unfortunately, the oil we import is a higher grade than the stuff we have. That makes it easier to refine, which translates to a lower production cost.
For the most part you are correct. One of the oil fields in the Arctic is so sweet it can run in a diesel truck right out of the ground(Meltwater). Then some is as thick as tar, not 20 miles away. My understanding is that most of the gas produced on the west coast is from the Arctic. Refined at the BP/ARCO facility in the Long Beach area. In fact CA adds $.04 tax to gas produced with foriegn oil. BP/ARCO are also at the front of the pack producing Low Sulfur Diesel.
Local pollution generated by high temperature combustion (the source of both diesel efficiency and the inevitable NOx problem) however is a serious health risk.
Global leader, BP has trademarked Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel called ECD-1 (Emission Control Diesel). At every Arco station (owned by BP) the diesel fuel you pump is ECD-1. This is a huge breakthrough. The benefits are a significant reduction of "soot" (very fine carbon particles that have a black appearance when emitted into the air), and of "sulfur dioxide." When diesel is burned, the sulfur it contains turns into this strong smelling, colorless gas which contributes to the problem of acid deposition and is a toxic air pollutant.
To meet the strict impending California regulations, ECD-1 has a low sulfur content of less than 15 ppm (parts per million), where as standard California diesel has an average sulfur content of 140 (!) ppm (with a maximum of 500 ppm). The Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel also enables the use of Catalyzed Particulate Filters (which replaces the muffler) to dramatically reduce emissions of hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide and particulate matter (solid or liquid particles of soot, dust, smoke, fumes and aerosols) by 90%.
Taken from an article by "GreenLight" an environmental organization. To find a station that sells ECD-1 here is BP's website. http://www.ecdiesel.com/
The BP fuels are the real deal too. Here in the midwest, we can get low-sulphur BP Diesel Supreme which is 30ppm sulphur and 50 cetane. It's not easy to find but will be soon enough. It makes a huge difference in the way my TDI performs as well as quiets the engine substantially. Very much like biodiesel does actually.
If I'm running normal truck stop diesel, I get a puff of smoke (and odor) on a cold start. And with my chip, I can produce some smoke during a full-throttle high rpm run. On BP Diesel Supreme, I get zero smoke at start-up and have never seen smoke coming from the exhaust on acceleration.
Coincidentally, on my '03 Ram with HO Cummins, I can't make it smoke on any fuel. Very light puff at startup, but other than that I can't get it to smoke and I've tried several different ways just to see if it would. The newest Cummins (2004.5 models) meets 50 state emissions, increased the power substantially (25hp, 50tq), and reduced the noise even further. Seems they can work "miracles" if it means they can't sell them in numerous states.
On the one hand unleaded gas advocates say: 1. use less gas 2. have less dependence on so called "foreign" oil, yet 3. do whatever is in their power to make domestic oil production non economical and non competitive and ultimately non existent.
I would also guess that the "non diesel" advocates probably do not see the disingenuousness of their position, but the position is disingenuous nontheless.
Bio diesel can be domestically "grown". One source is from soybeans.
How can you be "less dependent" on unleaded fuel when all that is available for practical purposes is unleaded fuel?????
"Unlike gas engines, diesels consume little to no fuel when the engine isn't loaded."
'Vague use of "gas engines". Atkinson cycle engine in Prius can output as little as 16 horsepower without affecting near peak 35% efficiency.'
If the Atkinson cycle produces 16 HP while idling, guess what. That's 16 HP being wasted in heat. A diesel produces no HP when not needed.
"The VW TDIs consume an average of 250 ml per hour idling, with the accessories turned off. "
'Hybrid consumes zero fuel. Hybrids also has ability to recapture energy back from braking. Think how much fuel diesel waste on the brake pads.'
Hybrids consume no fuel because they are turned off. What about starter motor stresses from frequent start stops ? Anyway, I mentioned this point to lead up to my next point, which is
"It's a popular belief that a hybrid powerplant is better suited to a diesel engine than a gas engine for those very reasons."
'Popular belief? You just describe similar benefits that improves fuel economy for both diesel and hybrids. Diesel and electric motors are in low-end torque but not much horsepower. How would they be better suited? ' OK, let me illustrate some dissimilar benefits.
1. You don't have to start/stop the engine at all. The engine management system can run everything off the battery if it has enough charge, or everything off the diesel engine if the battery has lost charge. The penalties for keeping the engine idling and unloaded are MUCH less than doing the same with a gas engine, Atkinson cycle or otherwise.
2. You don't have to have a small/pathetic engine to complement the battery as the gas/electric hybrids. You can have the regular diesel engine complemented by a battery, and use the battery to the fullest extent when you can and not at all when you can't.
3. Hybrid technology is still unproven in the real world. So, making a car so that it benefits from the battery pack, while not crippled when a) battery loses charge b) I can't afford the $XXXX to replace it when it fails
is in my mind an excellent solution. You get the improved fuel mileage AND increased power when the battery is good/charged and you just have a regular diesel car when it isn't.
The lack of mating of a diesel to the elecrical motor ie diesel hybrid was really a political regulatory issue. The mating is actually much more workable than the unleaded gas/hybrid that we see on the market today. This is not to say that it is not good, but that the diesel/hybrid is a better combination.
That is good to know about the Cummins diesel. I am leaning toward the Dodge because I believe that it is the best diesel of the three majors. I really don't like the looks of the Dodge or Ford. The Duramax has had some issues I don't want to help them iron out.
I was delighted to see my point of view supported by someone I don't care for much this morning, in the Wall Street Journal, page D9;
"Dieter Zetsche, chairman of Chrysler said he believes hybrid gas and electric engines are 'slightly overrated' and diesel engines are underrated." (He's launching a Diesel Jeep Liberty this fall.) "Certainly, in real-world applications, the hybrids are not living up to their sticker." Hybrids gain most of their efficiency in stop-and-go traffic, since the electric engine kicks in when the car is going less than 20 MPH. Diesels get better mileage than gas engines at highway speeds.
I still think this hybrid thing is a fad that won't last or gain broad application. Like the Rotary. Electric cars have never worked - so half-electric cars might? I don't think so.
That's a big mistake saying that. Toyota has such a head start over the other companies it now has them scrambling. Toyota and Honda will be releasing more and more hybrids. The acceptance of the current '04 Prius speaks volumes. Let's revisit this topic in five years and see where the industry is at. My guess is that there will be MORE diesel cars/SUVs on the road overshadowed by an even greater number of hybrids. The PT Cruiser WAS a fad, the hybrid vehicles are not. Foolish thinking.
I think it will. There is nothing wrong with reusing otherwise wasted energy, or is there? As much as I have appreciated development of new diesel engines (in Europe), I would also appreciate an evolutionary improvement in hybrid technology. While hybrid technology in automobiles is relatively new, locomotives do well using it (diesel-electric). Why don't (diesel) locomotives run on diesel alone?
While most (pro-hybrid) talk along the lines low emissions and high gas mileage, I think a bit differently. I see electric “assist” as something that can help improve existing ICE technologies. To put this in perspective, I’ve been hoping for Acura to launch a TSX w/AWD. Here would be a conventional way to do it Add VTM-4 or SH-AWD (one of the two AWD systems that Acura has). Either will add about 220 lb. to the curb weigh of the car. 3500 lb., 200 HP/170 lb.-ft car will gain in traction and lose in oomph factor (Like Audi A4 1.8T).
So, let us have Honda bring over its diesel, the 2.2-liter I-CTDi, from Europe. While the torque output is 250 lb.-ft @ 2000 rpm, “only” 140 HP (at 4000 rpm) isn’t going to get much accomplished either, and in fact will be far more underwhelming than the 2.4-liter gasoline engine would be. After all, nobody is going to buy TSX for towing purpose where decent HP at low rpm is more desired. And in addition, the diesel engine will also add additional weight (Honda lists the 2.2 I-CTDi at about 375 lb., which is about 100 lb. more than 2.2-liter DOHC engine used in Prelude, and the 2.4-liter DOHC engine in TSX probably weighs about the same as the engine used in Prelude).
Consider a pair of electric motors now, to assist the gasoline motor. And with ultra-capacitor pack to store energy, and assuming that the entire “electric package” adds about 200 lb (as much as VTM-4 or SH-AWD would while replacing them), it would also add power and especially at low end. Now, we could have a 240-250 HP/240-250 lb.-ft powertrain, pulling a 3500 lb. AWD sport sedan.
And Honda has showcased a 250 HP AWD Hybrid Prototype (2002 Acura RDX) using the same gasoline engine that Acura TSX uses.
Bad idea? I don’t think so. And it won’t produce the nasty stink that diesel fumes bring, more so at stop lights.
That's because those torque values cannot be easily applied to actual driving conditions. In other words, how does the peak RPM relate to real-world need?
Either I am not understanding your statement or you don't relaly understand how torque values apply in the real world!!?? What are you looking for in peak hp vs real world need?
While you have made your choices, I think you can answer it yourself by driving it side by side.
I definitely appreciate the torque you can get from that little TDI 1.9 engine. Don't let the torque rating of the Prius fool you. I normally drive on flat terrain but I was in Staten Island which is quite hilly. I had to ascend Todt Hill and the road was VERY steep. I could NOT believe how well the Prius climbed up that hill.
Sorry, but in an honest attempt to quantify how much cleaner biodiesel actually was, I made a discovery you are *not* going to like.
My research revealed the NOx emissions are WORSE than regular diesel, not better as some have implied.
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/analysis/biodsl/p02001.pdf is an EPA report titled "A Comprehensive Analysis of Biodiesel Impacts on Exhaust Emissions" from October 2002. In the executive summary (on page 4), it very clearly shows a the increase in NOx emissions as a higher ratio of bio-diesel is used in blended diesel fuel. And at 100% bio-diesel, the emission increase reaches 10%. That's nasty!
So, the reality is that the fuel change alone will not be enough to solve the smog pollution problem. Cleaning hardware will also be required. That will add to the cost of diesel systems, making an even greater challenge to compete with gas-hybrids. To make matters even worse, reducing emissions commonly has a side-effect of reducing efficiency.
Prius 1.5 gasser engine 110 hp 82#ft of torque, 2890#'s."
I don't understand your point here. Are you comparing ICE to ICE? If then Prius ICE is 76hp with 82 lbs-ft torque. The electric motor is 67hp with 295 lbs-ft torque.
"I don't understand your point here. Are you comparing ICE to ICE? If then Prius ICE is 76hp with 82 lbs-ft torque. The electric motor is 67hp with 295 lbs-ft torque."
That is the point!?
I have towed INXS of 29,000#'s with an electric tow vehicle, but this electric torque is almost totally from 0- whatever or instant on to not very fast, ie useless in higher speed driving.
Jetta TDI’s 177 lb.-ft isn’t for high speed driving either. After all, the engine tops out at only 100 HP pulling a 2970 lb. By comparison, Civic Hybrid has 94 HP to pull 300 lb. less weight (curb weight: 2675 lb.)
Comments
I think if anything you are being misleading. I have not seen you hang numbers to the costs of the Prius!!?? We are talking about costs, cents per mile.
If you want to see a civic gasser (14,999) verses civic hybrid 18,867), you could do the numbers and specify your findings. But again, unless the gasser is selling for the same price as the hybrid there is a BE point. And we are talking about the issue of BE, not whether or not all the non essential extras cost more or less. The nexus which no Prius owner has stepped up to the plate is whether or not a hybrid can be had with out all those extras!!?? The silence especially your own (as you indicate you are a Prius owner) is particularly telling. SO if you can not get the Prius without extras then that should be figured into the costs!!??
Do you think building me up to be a martyr is a wise thing to do?
The info I present is true, and it is documented in extreme detail on my website. All you have to do is look it up. Regardless, the summaries here are more than enough to express the point anyway.
The "debate & entertainment" is another way of saying that there is no reason to worry about the outcome, just provide facts and observe what happens. It is simply a light-hearted attitude.
NOx emissions are extremely high for diesel. They will be cleaned up in the future. So I am genuinely curious how diesel will compete with gas-hybrids. MPG of a gas-hybrid that doesn't require shifting is already a little better than a diesel that doesn't require shifting. By the time the diesel gets cleaner, the reputation for gas-hybrids will be well established. By then, the price will have dropped and the selection/variety increased due to mass-production. MPG has the potential of increasing too. What will be the appeal factor for diesel?
Seriously. I am quite curious. I am rather concerned too. Several comments like "I don't care about emissions" and "why bother shutting off the engine" clearly indicate a lack of understanding.
However you deem the facts, they are still nonetheless true.
JOHN
Sep-00__48.3
Oct-00__44.2
Nov-00__42.5
Dec-00__38.2
Jan-01__40.2
Feb-01__38.7
Mar-01__43.2
Apr-01__46.2
May-01__47.3
Jun-01__47.2
Jul-01__45.3
Aug-01__47.1
Sep-01__48.0
Oct-01__46.5
Nov-01__46.3
Dec-01__43.2
Jan-02__42.3
Feb-02__42.7
Mar-02__41.2
Apr-02__46.7
May-02__46.8
Jun-02__45.9
Jul-02__48.0
Aug-02__47.5
Sep-02__47.9
Oct-02__46.3
Nov-02__45.9
Dec-02__43.7
Jan-03__40.6
Feb-03__42.1
Mar-03__44.8
Apr-03__45.6
May-03__47.1
Jun-03__49.3
Jul-03__50.2
Aug-03__50.5
Sep-03__50.6
Oct-03__47.7
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overall average = 45.4
And here's the calculated-at-the-pump results of the 13,830 miles (so far) driven with my 2004 Prius in Minnesota:
Oct-03__49.7
Nov-03__46.2
Dec-03__46.5
Jan-04__42.3
Feb-04__45.0
Mar-04__48.1
Apr-04__50.7
May-04__53.7
_____________________________
cold weather average = 47.4
That's better than a diesel (in the same climate) that doesn't require you to shift. Got any data that states otherwise?
JOHN
And no, I don't care about the emissions of my car...as long as they pass whatever standards have been set for the area I live in then no, I don't care.
I see you average 47.4mpg...thats ONLY about 3mpg better than I average (I do have to shift, but that is by choice, remember, I sought out a manual).
I live in extreme northern IN...15 miles from the Michigan border, while our climates are not exactly the same....they are very similar.
As I said before...my lowest mpg was 41 in 100% city and 52 has been my highest in 100% hwy. I generally average 44mpg. Yes, my TDI has an advantage over automatics being that it is a 5 speed. I don't have any real-world data on the automatics as I don't and haven't owned one.
On a measured 245 (x2=490) miles ,(two fill ups for measurements sake) 3 hrs each way, each way with a 15 min nature break.
0-6233 altitude, 42 mpg with AC going with full trunk 250 #s and three passengers.
Return trip 6233-0 altitude, 49 mpg for an average R/T of 45.5 mpg.
We've broached the subject about claims being objective and subjective. You've made claims that diesel advocates aren't being objective, etc. Even though a majority of the diesel advocates see not only the CONS of the Hybrid vehicle, but they also point out the PROS of the Hybrids vehicles. My point is this....
HOW CAN YOU CLAIM TO BE OBJECTIVE WHEN YOU MAKE STATEMENTS LIKE THIS?
"I will FIGHT it to the bitter end..."
When answering a post about CLEAN diesels....kinda throws all of your credibilty about being objective out the window.
Your lesson is that of QUOTING OUT OF CONTEXT.
Why didn't you include the entire sentence?
Hmm.
The point is that I dispute facts. You attempt to discredit, rather than giving a rebuttal.
How exactly is that objective?
The diesel supporters can't even agree amongst themselves. So what exactly is it that you are supporting? The ENGINE, the FUEL, or the POTENTIAL of diesel? For when? And most importantly, for how many?
JOHN
What I wonder about though is how they will compete. We have an extraordinarily complex economic system, one highly resistant to change. Yet, gas-hybrids are showing the first signs of genuine success regardless of that.
JOHN
Because this discussion isn't about diesel hybrids..its about diesel cars. And your quote is not out of context, you said you would fight diesel techonolgy as long as it was stand alone without an electric motor.
Since there are currently no diesel electric hybrid production cars, then your sole objective is to "fight it to the bitter end"...and as long as you are fighting it to the bitter end..you cannot be objective.
BTW...you still haven't answered how much you paid for your Prius. Was it over the sticker? Did you pay a premium to have that Prius? It's not a bad thing if you did, since your main concern is the environment and not saving fossil fuels. You believe enough in your cause (environment) to pay for it, I applaud that. but I'm just curious why you don't post.
There are some features electric offers that an engine-only system simply cannot compete with... like providing power to the rear wheels without the need for a drive-shaft. Didn't think of that, did you? All 3 upcoming SUVs will exploit that ability.
And being able to crawl along in slow traffic without using any fuel, even with the A/C running, is priceless. Recharging is simply diverted to a far more efficient time, which is also much much cleaner.
There's no reason diesel can't take advantage of that too.
JOHN
Vague use of "gas engines". Atkinson cycle engine in Prius can output as little as 16 horsepower without affecting near peak 35% efficiency.
"The VW TDIs consume an average of 250 ml per hour idling, with the accessories turned off. "
Hybrid consumes zero fuel. Hybrids also has ability to recapture energy back from braking. Think how much fuel diesel waste on the brake pads.
"It's a popular belief that a hybrid powerplant is better suited to a diesel engine than a gas engine for those very reasons."
Popular belief? You just describe similar benefits that improves fuel economy for both diesel and hybrids. Diesel and electric motors are in low-end torque but not much horsepower. How would they be better suited?
Dennis
If you want personal information, look it up. It's all publicly available on my website.
Here, we need to focus on the technology, not the person. Remember that phrase "just the facts"?
So, spew out all the numbers your heart desires, as long as you don't attach them to a person.
JOHN
If you want to find an average MPG, you must know what the distances & quantities were for each of the entries.
You can't just add the numbers together, then divide by the count.
JOHN
This is what happens when people jump to conclusions.
You are waaaaaaaay off. Please look up the actual answer (and avoid personal content in the future).
JOHN
It better or get financially penalize by law.
When LSD reach US in 2006, not all gas stations will have diesel fuel. How much extra will those high pressure common rail direct injection engines cost? Even with ULSD (ultra low sulfer diesel), emission of diesel can not match HSD low emission. I think diesel has plenty of uphills over here in US. By 2006, there will be Accord hybrid, Altima hybrid, RX400h, Highlander hybrid, Escape hybrid and probably Camry hybrid on the market offering high fuel economy and ultra low emission, which LSD suppose to offer as well.
By looking at the history, diesel will have a hard time getting accepted in US because gas-electric offer more advantages and has ahead start.
Dennis
many thanks...
That is what I hinted at earlier. The fact that not all neighborhood stations carry diesel is one reason that prevents sales of diesel vehicles.
How will that change?
I can't imagine a station owner sacrificing one of his/her 3 storage gas tanks to hold diesel instead. What grade would be dropped? And at what point would it be financially worth risking the switch?
It's the classic "chicken or the egg" question!
JOHN
What website?
Gary
Absolutely right. Evolutionary approach like gas-electric will win. A great example is the computer X86 architecture with the need for backward compatibility.
Dennis
P.S: Gary, search "john1701a" on google.
On the contrary, more likely we will kiss domestic oil production good-bye. We import oil not because there can't be enough oil production here, but because the domestic production is not cheap enough (it's no different from T-shirts at Walmart, or any other out-sourceable commodity product). If oil demand drops, and price drops as a result, even more domestics will be put out business. The domestic oil industry went into a tailspin in the early 80's precisely because home insulation and car gas mileage improved.
Local pollution generated by high temperature combustion (the source of both diesel efficiency and the inevitable NOx problem) however is a serious health risk.
I not interested in personal information...I haven't seen any real world numbers as to what people are paying for the Prius, that is what I'm interested in. My point (environmental issues aside) is that it is more economical to purchase a Jetta TDI than it is to purchase a Prius. That is all, I'm not interested in how much YOU make or have in your bank account, or visiting your personal website or anything like that.
I am asking you for real world data on the Prius, which is relevant to this discussion. You throw around numbers like $18k, but everyone knows you can't get a Prius for that, I'm curious as to what real world $$'s are for the Prius.
Unfortunately, the oil we import is a higher grade than the stuff we have. That makes it easier to refine, which translates to a lower production cost.
JOHN
Global leader, BP has trademarked Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel called ECD-1 (Emission Control Diesel). At every Arco station (owned by BP) the diesel fuel you pump is ECD-1. This is a huge breakthrough. The benefits are a significant reduction of "soot" (very fine carbon particles that have a black appearance when emitted into the air), and of "sulfur dioxide." When diesel is burned, the sulfur it contains turns into this strong smelling, colorless gas which contributes to the problem of acid deposition and is a toxic air pollutant.
To meet the strict impending California regulations, ECD-1 has a low sulfur content of less than 15 ppm (parts per million), where as standard California diesel has an average sulfur content of 140 (!) ppm (with a maximum of 500 ppm). The Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel also enables the use of Catalyzed Particulate Filters (which replaces the muffler) to dramatically reduce emissions of hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide and particulate matter (solid or liquid particles of soot, dust, smoke, fumes and aerosols) by 90%.
Taken from an article by "GreenLight" an environmental organization. To find a station that sells ECD-1 here is BP's website.
http://www.ecdiesel.com/
If I'm running normal truck stop diesel, I get a puff of smoke (and odor) on a cold start. And with my chip, I can produce some smoke during a full-throttle high rpm run. On BP Diesel Supreme, I get zero smoke at start-up and have never seen smoke coming from the exhaust on acceleration.
Coincidentally, on my '03 Ram with HO Cummins, I can't make it smoke on any fuel. Very light puff at startup, but other than that I can't get it to smoke and I've tried several different ways just to see if it would. The newest Cummins (2004.5 models) meets 50 state emissions, increased the power substantially (25hp, 50tq), and reduced the noise even further. Seems they can work "miracles" if it means they can't sell them in numerous states.
I would also guess that the "non diesel" advocates probably do not see the disingenuousness of their position, but the position is disingenuous nontheless.
Bio diesel can be domestically "grown". One source is from soybeans.
How can you be "less dependent" on unleaded fuel when all that is available for practical purposes is unleaded fuel?????
'Vague use of "gas engines". Atkinson cycle engine in Prius can output as little as 16 horsepower without affecting near peak 35% efficiency.'
If the Atkinson cycle produces 16 HP while idling, guess what. That's 16 HP being wasted in heat. A diesel produces no HP when not needed.
"The VW TDIs consume an average of 250 ml per hour idling, with the accessories turned off. "
'Hybrid consumes zero fuel. Hybrids also has ability to recapture energy back from braking. Think how much fuel diesel waste on the brake pads.'
Hybrids consume no fuel because they are turned off. What about starter motor stresses from frequent start stops ? Anyway, I mentioned this point
to lead up to my next point, which is
"It's a popular belief that a hybrid powerplant is better suited to a diesel engine than a gas engine for those very reasons."
'Popular belief? You just describe similar benefits that improves fuel economy for both diesel and hybrids. Diesel and electric motors
are in low-end torque but not much horsepower. How would they be better suited? '
OK, let me illustrate some dissimilar benefits.
1. You don't have to start/stop the engine at all. The engine management system can run everything off the battery if it has enough charge, or
everything off the diesel engine if the battery has lost charge. The penalties for keeping the engine idling and unloaded are MUCH less than doing
the same with a gas engine, Atkinson cycle or otherwise.
2. You don't have to have a small/pathetic engine to complement the battery as the gas/electric hybrids. You can have the regular diesel engine
complemented by a battery, and use the battery to the fullest extent when you can and not at all when you can't.
3. Hybrid technology is still unproven in the real world. So, making a car so that it benefits from the battery pack, while not crippled when
a) battery loses charge
b) I can't afford the $XXXX to replace it when it fails
is in my mind an excellent solution. You get the improved fuel mileage AND increased power when the battery is good/charged and you just have
a regular diesel car when it isn't.
"Dieter Zetsche, chairman of Chrysler said he believes hybrid gas and electric engines are 'slightly overrated' and diesel engines are underrated." (He's launching a Diesel Jeep Liberty this fall.) "Certainly, in real-world applications, the hybrids are not living up to their sticker." Hybrids gain most of their efficiency in stop-and-go traffic, since the electric engine kicks in when the car is going less than 20 MPH. Diesels get better mileage than gas engines at highway speeds.
I still think this hybrid thing is a fad that won't last or gain broad application. Like the Rotary. Electric cars have never worked - so half-electric cars might? I don't think so.
While most (pro-hybrid) talk along the lines low emissions and high gas mileage, I think a bit differently. I see electric “assist” as something that can help improve existing ICE technologies. To put this in perspective, I’ve been hoping for Acura to launch a TSX w/AWD. Here would be a conventional way to do it
Add VTM-4 or SH-AWD (one of the two AWD systems that Acura has). Either will add about 220 lb. to the curb weigh of the car. 3500 lb., 200 HP/170 lb.-ft car will gain in traction and lose in oomph factor (Like Audi A4 1.8T).
So, let us have Honda bring over its diesel, the 2.2-liter I-CTDi, from Europe. While the torque output is 250 lb.-ft @ 2000 rpm, “only” 140 HP (at 4000 rpm) isn’t going to get much accomplished either, and in fact will be far more underwhelming than the 2.4-liter gasoline engine would be. After all, nobody is going to buy TSX for towing purpose where decent HP at low rpm is more desired. And in addition, the diesel engine will also add additional weight (Honda lists the 2.2 I-CTDi at about 375 lb., which is about 100 lb. more than 2.2-liter DOHC engine used in Prelude, and the 2.4-liter DOHC engine in TSX probably weighs about the same as the engine used in Prelude).
Consider a pair of electric motors now, to assist the gasoline motor. And with ultra-capacitor pack to store energy, and assuming that the entire “electric package” adds about 200 lb (as much as VTM-4 or SH-AWD would while replacing them), it would also add power and especially at low end. Now, we could have a 240-250 HP/240-250 lb.-ft powertrain, pulling a 3500 lb. AWD sport sedan.
And Honda has showcased a 250 HP AWD Hybrid Prototype (2002 Acura RDX) using the same gasoline engine that Acura TSX uses.
Bad idea? I don’t think so. And it won’t produce the nasty stink that diesel fumes bring, more so at stop lights.
An easy example that usually draws absolutely little to no reaction from folks:
Jetta TDI 1.9T engine 100 hp, 177#ft torque, 2970#'s.
vs say a
Prius 1.5 gasser engine 110 hp 82#ft of torque, 2890#'s.
That's because those torque values cannot be easily applied to actual driving conditions. In other words, how does the peak RPM relate to real-world need?
JOHN
While you have made your choices, I think you can answer it yourself by driving it side by side.
My research revealed the NOx emissions are WORSE than regular diesel, not better as some have implied.
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/analysis/biodsl/p02001.pdf is an EPA report titled "A Comprehensive Analysis of Biodiesel Impacts on Exhaust Emissions" from October 2002. In the executive summary (on page 4), it very clearly shows a the increase in NOx emissions as a higher ratio of bio-diesel is used in blended diesel fuel. And at 100% bio-diesel, the emission increase reaches 10%. That's nasty!
So, the reality is that the fuel change alone will not be enough to solve the smog pollution problem. Cleaning hardware will also be required. That will add to the cost of diesel systems, making an even greater challenge to compete with gas-hybrids. To make matters even worse, reducing emissions commonly has a side-effect of reducing efficiency.
JOHN
You won't like that either.
JOHN
vs say a
Prius 1.5 gasser engine 110 hp 82#ft of torque, 2890#'s."
I don't understand your point here. Are you comparing ICE to ICE? If then Prius ICE is 76hp with 82 lbs-ft torque. The electric motor is 67hp with 295 lbs-ft torque.
Dennis
That is the point!?
I have towed INXS of 29,000#'s with an electric tow vehicle, but this electric torque is almost totally from 0- whatever or instant on to not very fast, ie useless in higher speed driving.