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Hybrid vs Diesel
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Comments
I have the engine coolant heater on my TDI, so when at home I plug it in to a programmed outlet that turns on 3 hours before I leave. Regardless of outside temps, the car starts as if it's a 90F day and drives immediately away smoothly. Heat starts into the cabin within a minute or so. Seat heaters also warm things up nicely.
When starting without being plugged in, I can't say that I've ever had the glow-plugs go for 10 seconds. Maybe 5-7, max. The car will start rougher at colder temps and takes a minute or so to smooth out to normal. I don't find many gas engines that are extremely happy to start-up at -20F either though. Some just plain won't start at those temps if they aren't maintained properly, which is equally important with a diesel. The only real concern with cold starts is fuel quality. Fuel quality isn't exactly a big priority here in the states, and a diesel engine will not tolerate poor fuel quality as easily as a gasser. When the temps are below 10F, I usually add my own fuel additive if I'm buying from an unknown source. I try to run a high quality fuel (BP Diesel Supreme is 50 cetane and 30ppm sulphur) and the car runs a lot quieter/smoother than typical truckstop diesel. It will also start smoother and without smoke if using good fuel or at least running an additive.
I don't keep spreadsheets on my TDI, just receipts with miles driven and the corresponding mpg written on them. Same as I do for all my vehicles. I usually note on the slip if the conditions were not normal (trailer towing, extensive idling, etc.) My most recent fill on my TDI was 705 miles on 14.6 gallons. My Jetta is an '00 5-speed with about 85,000 miles on the clock and I'm also running an upsolute performance chip. All of those miles were with the A/C running and about 80% were at speeds of 75-80mph, 10% town, 10% rural driving. I would imagine if I drove slower and didn't pass as many people (rural roads) I could easily boost the mpg. Not going to change my ways after 40ish years of driving.....
My friend who has a Merc diesel constantly has to search for fuel at times because not all stations carry diesel. That's a small concern of mine as well. Other than that, I can't understand why people haven't considered TDI's in light of the fact that a Prius is virtually impossible to get within a reasonable time.
I also read a tidbit that the TDI spews out six times as much pollutants than the Prius '04... is that true?????
Car and driver tested an automatic 5-speed tiptronic Jetta TDI awhile back and it turned 0-60 exactly the same as an '04 Prius. Don't recall the exact number off the top of my head, 11.5 or something like that.
I wouldn't have a problem with these emissions laws if they applied equally to all vehicles. The fact you can buy a 15mpg gasser or diesel truck that is held to less stringent standards, but a 50mpg car isn't allowed even though it's particulate matter is a fraction of the trucks. No bonus points for greenhouse gasses being exceptionally low.
In so far as the TDI stick/auto, my sense is the 0-60 times are on the order of 10-12 seconds.
Don't let the lies of environmentalists rule your life !
CO2 is benign, since it won't directly cause bodily harm.
NOx is very dangerous though. It is what contributes significantly to smog, which results in breathing problems.
Using diesel results in levels of NOx much much much higher than a hybrid like Prius. The SULEV and PZEV emission rating point out the clean vehicles. No (non-bio) diesel even comes close to achieving either of those ratings. Don't let the lies...
JOHN
I agree with you, that a lot of the CO2 scare and global warming theories, are imperfect science. Trees love CO2. Environmentalists love trees. You would think they would love CO2. It's a crazy world we live in..
Total smog producing emissions for 15k miles is Landcruiser 39-40.6 lbs to Golf TDI 20.8-25 lbs.
It's possible to make clean fuel for diesel engines. You can practically run the things on Soybean or corn oil (American grown) if you process it right. It's just a matter of making the more expensive fuels mandatory.
Until I see a gas/hybrid go 15 years and 200,000 miles and see all maintenance records, I'm more comfortable with the diesel. Tree huggers and anyone else, who prefers to see things "made in America", should lobby for cleaner diesel fuel.
However, both abilities add to the cost of the vehicle.
And as the hybrid technology evolves, it will be able to squeeze out even higher MPG.
How will diesel compete?
JOHN
With those BE points on a Prius hybrid vs a Corolla, the gas hybrid would almost have to get 3x better mileage than is advertised now at 51/60 or as a minimum 3x better than 40-45 mpg. Just the replacement cost of app 3920 at the 150,000 to 200,000 mark is daunting. This of course goes without mentioning at todays prices of 2.25 per gal 3920 buys 1742 gals of gas and at 45 mpg will go 78,400 miles. So the cost of first amendment exercise is truly not linked to the economics of a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic.
So for example #2 diesel can be burned, actually heating oil, biodiesel from multiple sources and old vegetable oil http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_mike.html.
If it were really as important as folks would like to make it out, they could incentivize it in very many ways. One obvious way would be to decrease the tax on biodiesel fuel. In CA that tax is 18/18 for a total of .36 cents. Also they could give tax credits and tax write offs for diesel powered machines.
That's the reason you get a manual. A manual tranny and a nice stereo are the only thing that makes a commute bearable.
I will FIGHT it to the bitter end... because relying on an engine exclusively for propulsion needs is like shooting yourself in the foot. Why not add an electric motor? If you don't like the battery-pack, eliminate it. Use an ultracapacitor instead. Geez!
Why in the world are some people hearing arguing for a diesel engine-only system? It doesn't even make any sense.
A hybrid-diesel is totally realistic... BECAUSE THEY ALREADY EXIST!
I wondered how long this thread could survive before someone would finally point that out. The prototype vehicles from the PNGV project were hybrids that ran on diesel. Duh!
Hybrid-Diesel trains have been around for decades too.
Needless to say, I'm done here. It was a lot of fun getting to excercise the debate skills. But that was only for entertainment, since LONG-TERM it won't be "Hybrid vs Diesel" anyway... it will be "Hybrid & Diesel". I hope others finally step away from the SHORT-TERM thinking and now see that.
JOHN
Replacing those with traditional components would slash at least a $1,000 off the price.
But Toyota doesn't want their first hybrid to be a vehicle just like everyone else's, except hybrid. But they will someday. How will Jetta compete with that price reduction?
JOHN
Is this the best you can do to explain why you are so opposed to diesel cars? You go on to promote diesel hybrids, but do you know of any diesel hybrid cars that have been announced by any auto makers, for sale to the public?
You then added "Needless to say, I'm done here. It was a lot of fun getting to exercise the debate skills. But that was only for entertainment..."
But after that sign-off, here you are two posts later #693, again bad-mouthing diesels.
Evidently you are so fixated on your precious Prius that you are unwilling to even consider any other type of cars. Too bad, for I really did think better of you.
JOHN -end
Keep exercising the Troll skills. By your own statement it appears you were posting only to further your "debate skills". Not constructive. LOL.
Diesel Hybrid is the long term solution.
They don't need to. Unlike gas engines, diesels consume little to no fuel when the engine isn't loaded. The VW TDIs consume an average of 250 ml per hour idling, with the accessories turned off. Yes, that's 250ml per HOUR.
And when coasting downhill with the feet off the pedal, they consume NO fuel. The miracles of compression ignition !!!
It's a popular belief that a hybrid powerplant is better suited to a diesel engine than a gas engine for those very reasons.
I really like the idea of capacitor driven electric motors on the rear wheels to give extra oomph when you need it. I know batteries have come a long way, but I still remember the rechargable batteries (camcorders etc) from 10 years ago that had to be replaced every couple of years. Plus add the electric motors and you have 4 wheel drive instead of 2. It seems to be a win, win solution if someone will just bring it to market.
I went on a fishing trip last week, picked up my brother-in-law who was in town visiting. Drove 400 miles in my Jetta TDI and somewhere along the return trip he noticed we still had over 1/2 tank of fuel. Wanted to know if my fuel guage was busted or I'd filled up while he was sleeping. He had no clue my Jetta was a diesel. Said he hought it was a heckuva decent car before, but the fuel mileage really caught him off-guard. Couldn't believe a car that just minutes before had been going nearly triple digits to pass a long line of slow-pokes could still get such high mpg numbers.
TDI's are in heavy demand as well. Passats are pretty much sold out and no rebates/incentives on any TDI's. Resale values are quite high as well.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-06-10-diesel-vs-hybrid_x- .htm
My 03 Jetta TDI wagon has turned me into a diesel fanatic.
Dennis
Smart Exit/Entry
Built in NAV
Bluetooth
(my 3 favorite features of my Prius)
It would be VERY tempting. Even more tempting would be for Audi to offer a diesel engine in their cars (I think they do in Europe).
That people are quick to jump to conclusions... yes!
The MPG on the hybrid clearly wasn't measured correctly. The computer is never off by more than just a few MPG, and I can prove it. In other words, the hybrid can easily compete with the efficiency of a diesel.
And when a diesel system is capable of achieving SULEV emission rating, then I'm interested. Until then, the NOx pollution is just plain too dirty.
JOHN
I believe many people are attracted to Prius for it's combination of fuel/power efficiency, super ultra low emission, responsiveness, and high-tech options.
Jetta GLS 2.0 is probably the most environmental offending vehicle in the mid-size car segment, where Prius is in lowest emission. Jetta GLS might pollute as much as gas SUVs. Remember, Prius surpassed SULEV, Euro IV, and Japan emission standard by far. Basically, Toyota can probably sell current Prius without any improvement for 20 more years and not worry about meeting emission standards.
Jetta auto fuel economy and sequential acceleration(0-60) might come close to Prius. Prius is superior at passing power and responsiveness on the highway.
Dennis
But what is not off is the total cost of Fuel...$28 vs $21. Even if the computer was correct at 51mpg.....it still COST more to make the return trip than it did to make the trip out. That is directly related to the difference in cost between permium unleaded and diesel.
And don't say.."well he didn't fill the tank up the first time he fueled"...becuase even if he did, it would have cost him the same...$28 for the reutrn trip.
I agree. There's been rumor of an Audi diesel making it's way here. BMW has some wonderful diesels as well. They make a TDI look like ancient technology in terms of performance, sound, economy. A TDI that with the exception of a lot of NOX competes quite well against the latest and greates Prius. Makes you go hmmmmmm?
Well perhaps if you could get your computer to run the actual MPG you will have revolutionized the use of "fuel" but really it is way easy just put one gal of fuel in and if you do go the 51/60 then really you have made the case but if you do go the 40-45 as per what most Prius OWNERS report then you have between 8-20 miles to walk .
All of which is bunk considering the current TDI is power gagged because of our crappy fuel. Turn that motor up to the power level it comes with in Europe and the passing power and highway responsiveness (however you define that) is better as are all the other performance figures compared to a Prius.
___As for the Diesels Since the Accord 2.2 L iCDTi not only is a world record breaker in terms of performance, it also already meets and/or exceeds Euro IV specs on Europe’s LSD. In other words, it is quite possibly as clean as my 5-speed Insight is (LEV on high sulfur fuel) already. Now let’s look at what it would take to detune one of these Honda 2.2 L iCDTi wonders to the performance of the Prius’ 0 - 60 in 10 to 11 seconds. Maybe a 1.5 to 1.8 L iCDTi would do the trick and now you are speaking of closer to Euro V type specs (LEV/ULEV) just due to the loss in displacement and increased fuel economy.
___Even in my Insight I would still be receiving 100 + mpg or possibly even more if it had a 1.0 L Honda iCDTi. I would probably still have acceleration of 0 - 60 in about 10.5 seconds. I would probably still have similar emissions or possibly even better in fact. The only real difference is that I could probably run the A/C with an iCDTi and not take a 30 - 40% hit on the mileage when doing so and I wouldn’t have the ability to use autostop and/or regen. Big whoop. Drop the $3K + worth of hybrid drivetrain and give me the just as clean 1.0 L Diesel with possibly even better mileage for a cool $2K in savings.
___As for Diesel Hybrid’s, the Ford Escape Hybrid has an ~ $5,000 premium over and above the 4 banger. This isn’t made up with extra amenities but mostly the Hybrid gear itself. We can speculate until hell freezes over about what the Hybrid drivetrain costs or doesn’t cost today, tomorrow, or 10 years from now but when you go purchase a Hybrid today, more then likely at least $3,500 is going towards paying for the Hybrid drivetrain. If so, add that to the $1,000 + worth of Diesel injection and turbo technology. Now you are talking at least a $4,500 and probably more like $5 to $6,000 premium over and above the std. ICE. It is one thing to pay a few hundred upwards to $1,500 for an automobile that receives 50% or better fuel economy. It is an entirely different matter to pay $5 - $6K + extra for one no matter what it receives given the payback problem.
___Another way to put it albeit with some exaggeration $5 to $6K worth of fuel will take an average automobile close to 100,000 miles for free. To put it more matter of fact, let us say you could purchase one car that received an infinite mpg (0 fuel used over 200,000 miles) and cost just $10K more then a std. ICE receiving lets say 35 mpg. Which automobile is the better buy? Diesels can already exceed the 35 mpg even in a car the size and luxury of the Merc 320. I can only hope Hybrid drivetrains come down in price by a significant amount over time but for what you can purchase today, they are underperformers against the Euro diesels by a fair margin and the cost isn’t anywhere even close. 2004 Honda Accord Saloon vs. 2004 Toyota Prius - UK/Euro Toyota/Honda web sites. Well if you could get a stripped Prius in comparison to the Accord maybe?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
All scheduled maintenance right now for my TDI is calculated at .0114558 cents per mile. Unscheduled maintenance and or repairs is of course unscheduled and would shed light on the reliabilty and durability portion.
How do you figure Civic Hybrid's comparable "base model Civic"? And, how long do you think it would take a Civic EX buyer to "recuperate" the extra expense over a Civic DX?
Unfortunately your calculation is RIGHT ON TARGET! I dont think it takes a 100% accurate crystal ball to say that if a gas hybrid costs 27k, (getting 40-45 practically) vs a Toyota Corolla (getting 35-38 practically) and costs 13k that the cost structures are heading in the right direction from an economic point of view!!!
Since when is comparing a very-well-loaded-midsize car to a basic-compact car even the slightest bit honest?
It isn't! It is *extremely* misleading.
Compare a traditional Corolla to a hybrid Corolla, both loaded the same way. Then people will acknowledge the claim; otherwise, it is just meaningless info that has no baring on LONG-TERM outcome anyway.
JOHN
JOHN"
This is not really do able to the fact there is currently no gas only Prius. This is do able for the Honda Civic hybrid/gas. Again while the numbers will always be slightly different, again advantage gas Civic. Will you again not acknowledge the claim? Or are you trolling just to exercise your debating gig?