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Hybrid vs Diesel
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Comments
My brother has a 2003 Camry. The word "significantly" is clearly not fitting. Choose another... or just point out the actual feature/dimension you are talking about.
Perhaps you mean length of the vehicle.
JOHN
Yes the Camry is closer to the Town Car than the Prius on rear shoulder room. Significant is a fitting word. Yes, no doubt.
The Camry has about as much more interior cubic feet compared to the Prius as the new Prius had compared to the old Prius. Seems most of you said that was a "significant" increase in size and that was even on your website. Front shoulder room and rear headroom are other areas that are larger by a noticeable margin.
And regarding about fuel efficiency, HSD is more fuel efficient than any diesel engine on the market, as I've been saying all these time. Here is the confirmation.
Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive Takes Top Honors in Four Categories:
- International Engine of the Year 2004
- Best New Engine
- Best Fuel Economy
- Best Engine 1.4-liter to 1.8-liter
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040526/sfw068_1.html
Dennis
Toyota Hybrid 1.5-litre (Prius) 375
Honda 1.3-litre IMA (Civic) 153
Fiat-GM Diesel 1.3-litre (Panda, Punto, IDEA, Doblo, Opel/Vauxhall Agila, Corsa, Suzuki New Ignis) 139
Volkswagen Diesel 5-litre (Touareg/Phaeton) 75
BMW Diesel 3-litre (330d, X3, 530d, X5, 730d) 65
Honda 1-litre IMA (Insight) 58
http://www.ukintpress.com/engineoftheyear/winners/bestfuel.html
56 judges from 24 countries across five continents is not independant?
http://www.ukintpress.com/engineoftheyear/judges04.html
Dennis
So the Insight engine finished 6th place behind the first place Prius for best fuel economy despite the fact that it has better fuel economy. Makes sense to me as long as you throw out logic.
Do you see this a compromise? What happens in the winter to a hybrid? Is a heater turned on? What happens to batteries in cold weather? Reduced performance. Do I see a compromise.
It is clear to me that some individuals are not interested in promoting fuel efficiency, alternative fuels and improved use of energy as their interest is a single one of hybrid and Prius.
Such narrow mindedness will only lead to failure.
That is NOT true.
In fact, exactly the OPPOSITE happens... INCREASED performance!
Capacity is reduced. But since you virtually never dip below 40% anyway, reaching 0% is totally a non-issue. Remember, deep-discharging shortens the battery-pack life. So the system will sacrifice gas rather than ever letting that happen.
The benefit of the cold, besides reducing resistance, is the fact that cooling is no longer a concern. So in extreme cold, the electrical abilities are enhanced. It's pretty sweet! The system actually allows greater AMP draw than it does in warm weather.
So there!
JOHN
You state that increased performance is achieved with cold temps in #519 and the exact OPPOSITE elsewhere. Which of your statements is NOT true?
There are people obtaining 60 mpg with Jetta TDI. What real world avgs. were you referring too?
My point is not too discredit the Prius. Any car obtain 40 mpg is a move forward. My point is that John is anti-diesel, not just pro-hybrid. Read his weblog and you will understand more of his comments here.
Diesel is a viable option as are hybrids to improve mpg of vehicles and decrease oil dependence.
The car can be any size with any number of seating capacity/functionality. Why don't you read and find out what the award is all about and how judges decide instead of making up your own idea/logic of an award?
"What if they had voted for the Hummer?"
Nope, will not happen. Read the rules.
Dennis
Ouch, that's gonna use a lot of energy just to maintain the fuel at a usable state.
"It is clear to me that some individuals are not interested in promoting fuel efficiency, alternative fuels and improved use of energy as their interest is a single one of hybrid and Prius."
Who are you referring to? If it is me, come to me directly without sprewing indirectly on other board as well. It's okay to disagree with me but I think you are more on the attacking side. If you have more information about diesel or other alternative fuel, please educate us and clear the myths. It will be up to the readers, including me, to decide which technology is right for them.
Dennis
Changing definitions, eh?
All along I've been complaining that the word "performance" should not mean acceleration. Now when it is suddenly to your benefit for "performance" to mean efficiency, you accept my complaint.
Too bad, it won't work.
The reference and original statement was to the battery, not MPG. So your sudden shift to including efficiency doesn't apply anyway. Should I repeat the quote again?
Explain how "battery" applies to MPG?
Remember, the real reason efficiency is lower in the winter is due to winter-formula gas being less efficient, much longer warm-up times, needing to run the heater to keep you warm, driving times increasing, cold air being more dense, rolling-resistance higher pushing through snow, etc.
JOHN
The HYBRID ROAD-RALLY included a Jetta TDI. On that 1,200 mile trip, the MPG for the diesel was less than the Classic Prius. (So obviously, the 2004 would do even better.) That data was quite real-world.
Remember, you must compare AUTOMATIC to AUTOMATIC. Yes, we know a manual-transmission will do better. But since so few in the United States wants that type, it can't be portrayed as a solution for all.
> My point is that John is anti-diesel
You can say that again.
Show me a diesel capable of achieving a SULEV emission rating or better, then we'll talk. Until then, they are way to dirty to be considered a realistic solution.
> Diesel is a viable option as are hybrids to improve mpg of vehicles and decrease oil dependence.
The primary goal of Prius is to reduce emissions, not increase efficiency (that's secondary). I am unwilling to sacrifice clean for MPG when technology like HSD clearly shows that it isn't necessary; you can have both.
JOHN
Then read it again more carefully! This is what it said,
"To qualify for inclusion in this Award Category, an engine must have been housed in a passenger car... "
I think I am just wasting time since it is too hard to acknowledge.
"If so, the rest of us will "understand" your position"
My position is having no position, sort of like Bruce Lee's martial art philosophy. I don't claim to know everything but I can find out and learn. To do that, I acknowledge and accept if something makes sense. I look beyond marketing hypes and PR spins. With all the choices we have today, I strongly believe that HSD is the way of the future.
Three Diesel engines are in top 6 best fuel economy engines. Gas Electric Hybrids own the top two positions, which is consistent with what I've been saying. Gas electric hybrids are more fuel efficient and cleaner(lower emission) than Diesel of any flavor.
Dennis
No, I do not have to compare automatic to automatic. You compare automatic to CVT only to omit the significantly higher mpg of the manual. Most of the TDI are sold with manual by the way. Example is 50 mpg highway EPA rating with 5 spd manual vs. 44 mpg highway with automatic. And these are only EPA ratings and we all know that real world mpg varies from the EPA estimate.
Hybrid-Road Rally.- That is a real credible source of non-biased diesel info.!
That was my point too!
> No, I do not have to compare automatic to automatic.
Then don't imply that your data is applicable to the 90% of us that do *NOT* want to have to shift. Leaving out that key information is quite misleading... just like how diesel MPG absolutely plummets in stop & slow traffic, the very situation where hybrids shine.
JOHN
It wasn't actually a "hybrid" rally, but for the lack of a better name that's what we used.
In reality, the goal was to prove both hybrid & diesel could outperform a monster-size SUV. The diesel was very much part of the presentations we provided, just look at all the photos.
JOHN
Miles per gallon is the reason people are buying hybrids. Not low emissions. Miles per gallon is why people buy diesel passenger cars. That is my conclusion. Different opinions are welcome.
You can't have an opinion about an implemented design. The way it operates is a fact, something the engineers specifically decided on.
Yes, the reason for buying can be an opinion. But it does not change the way the vehicle operates.
JOHN
Above is link to MIT paper that concludes diesel hybrid is superior to gasoline hybrid for full life-cycle carbon emissions.
May be interesting read for some here.
The emissions currently emitted by vehicles are at a level that my concern is conserving resources.
Safety, type of energy used and sustainability, cost of use, MPG, driving experience are my top criteria when deciding on a personal vehicle.
Anywho, since the deduction only works out to about $350 for the average person, it's hardly a big deal. And it expires in 2 years anyway, with each year providing less and less.
JOHN
It supports exactly what I've been saying all along about diesel not being able to easily compete with gas when it comes to the reduction of SMOG related emissions.
JOHN
Ouch, that's gonna use a lot of energy just to maintain the fuel at a usable state.
Not really, the heater is that big lug of steel under the hood that gets hot anyway. The only inefficiency of a veggies system is simply having to start the engine on dino diesel until the engine temps are high enough to warm the veggie oil. Not a good system for someone driving very little, or just around town. Best is for someone like myself running 30k-40k miles per year out on the highways. I could pay for the system in one year if I wasn't too lazy.
Because it is illegal.
In fact, it is illegal to use veggie oil in some places too.
The reason is because it is even dirtier than diesel.
JOHN
>not increase efficiency (that's secondary).
John you have stated this several times. I am not sure if this is just your opinion or if there is a Toyota document that backs it up.
However, I do not believe it is exactly as you state or the Prius would be totally electric EV which would have absolutely no emissions.
I would be interested to learn what Toyota internally says about Prius emissions.
Thanks,
MidCow.
The Prius is amazing technology. Direct-injection, spark ignition engine (would be 30-35mpg by itself in a 110hp, 2900# car). The add in the electric motor, batteries, and controllers and you have a nice package.
However, for me, some of the other things let me down. One is the Bluetooth. A car-phone integration that you can't dial while driving is useless. This a Toyota problem, not just a Prius, and something my wife reminds me of everytime I say: "We could have gotten the LS430."
That problem also effects the navigation, however to a lesser extent. Other issues are slightly short seat cushions, no valet-lockable storage, and some missing features (e.g., expected at that price point: heated/power seats).
A tire change would have handled some of the noise and ride issues (the car comes with really low end tires).
We tested the Passat TDI. We didn't think it offered any significant advantages over the Prius, and its diesel was rather noisy.
The E320 CDI is higher in NOx, but it is low in COx. And in real world driving economy is 30-35mpg vs 19-22 mpg for the gas version and 40-45mpg for a Prius. And it is much faster. An MB CDI with a smaller engine (e.g. E220CDI or E270CDI) would be closer to the Prius in both acceleration and fuel mileage.
Moreover, the CDI basically gives you an uncompromised MB E-class. Performance, noise, ride, features are all there. The cost is nearly exactly double the Prius. However at 80,000 miles or so, when the Prius battery warranty expires, some of the price disadvantage will go away.
The diesels big advantage is in part throttle operation. On the highway, where only 50-70hp is needed to maintain 75mph. The hybrid's advantage is in start/stop traffic, where it maximizes its edge from regenerative braking, electric motor torque from rest, and ability to turn off the ICE engine when at rest.
Yes, I believe in 10 years the majority of new vehicles will be diesel hybrids. The NOx problem will be solved by exhaust cleansing and more precisely controlled and efficient combustion.
I expect an E-class diesel/hybrid of 2015 to produce less emissions than someone walking while delivering 40-50mpg in the real world. For now, we have voted.
David
Note: There actually are compromises in getting an MB CDI: some options are not available on the CDI in the US that are available on the other E-classes here and on CDIs in other countries.
There is lots of documention and it has been pointed out on several occasions already.
The fact that the engine runs for the sake of heating up the CAT, even though the car isn't even moving is all the proof you really need.
JOHN
"totally electric" does not mean "no emissions".
The electricity has to come from somewhere. And in many areas throughout the United States, it is coal... which actually causes more overall pollution than just using gas.
JOHN
Wrong. It is 100,000 miles in all states but NY & CA, where they get a 150,000 mile warranty.
> The hybrid's advantage is in start/stop traffic
Owners report 48 to 52 MPG on the highway. If you don't think that's an advantage, you've probably been standing too close to a diesel exhaust pipe.
JOHN
Because it is illegal.
In fact, it is illegal to use veggie oil in some places too.
The reason is because it is even dirtier than diesel.
JOHN
Wrong, in some places it's actually cleaner fuel depending upon who you buy your fuel oil from. Many BP/Amoco distibutors sell their premium diesel for heating oil, and it's 30ppm sulphur which is about 10% of standard on-road #2.
The real reason fuel oil is illegal is because it doesn't have any fuel tax included in the price. I've not seen any legislation yet that actually makes veggie oil or home-made biodiesel illegal per say. Fuel oil is specifically dyed to indicate that fuel tax has not been paid and it's intended for off-road use only.
Who needs money the most? Perhaps the Russians or their cohorts in other parts of the former foe? Start thinking. Where is the money going to show up at? If there is money to be made from the old materials, then it is most likely going to happen somewhere and probably in a area where life is very cheap. In todays world, it would be expensive and dangerous to try such a project in our area of the woods... Oh well, food for thought???
I guess the potential for nuke fuel for use in cars is really out there and it is just a matter of time before it becomes available..."
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. We can not even get a badly needed power plant built because of public opposition. A plant that is operated by NRC trained people. A plant that is regulated by the NRC. How on earth could we build a nuclear powered car?! I don't mean from an engineering perspective (I'm a nuclear engineer). I mean from the perspective of mass producing one in the real world. Would EVERY worker on the production line get certified to handle nuclear materials? They'd have to. Would every person who buys one have to be certified as an operator and then re-certified yearly? They'd have to. Every fire department and medical team would also have to be certified. What about repair shops? Where does the car go when it gets totalled? What about when it dies for any reason? Do the junkyards now have to get certified, too? Then they need security. And the list goes on and on.
Russia's unused weapons-grade material? Russia has a deal with the US (and others) where they are taking their excess highly enriched fuel and blending it down to commercial power fuel, then we are buying it from them to run in our plants. This is being done at facilities like Tomsk-7 (now known as Seversk). Make sure you know what you're talking about before you talk.
The thought of a nuclear powered car is simply rediculous.
Yup, I'll buy that. It wouldn't be the first time something was "regulated by money".
JOHN
Prius' ICE is direct ignition, not direct injection. I sure hope the next gen to use direct injection.
"The diesels big advantage is in part throttle operation. On the highway, where only 50-70hp is needed to maintain 75mph. "
The classic Prius' Atkinson cycle engine can make as low as 7hp without affecting it's efficiency. HSD also has big advantage in part throttle operation as diesel compared to Otto cycle gas engines.
Dennis
There never was one. That duration & distance is for the hybrid (electrical) components only.
> They are getting in the 41 mpg range with freeway driving.
That's possible if they allow their tires to run soft, overfill the oil, drive fast, drive aggressively, have the Heater or A/C on full, etc. But most owners don't, so they get upper 40's.
> The special order tires are also an issue.
The 2004 doesn't have special tires. They are just run-of-the-mill Goodyears. The 2001-2003 used to, but owners stopped using them a long time ago and just switched to run-of-the-mill tires. (In fact, I did with my 2001 and didn't take a MPG hit at all!)
JOHN
yikes. Granted I don't run my tires soft or overfill the oil, but I like to enjoy driving (read: fun and aggressive when there's no traffic, which is often) and where I live in NY there are many days when I blast either the AC or the heat. But that sounds like boxing yourself in. I could do that with my Subaru and get another 3+ mpg out of it I'm sure. Let's see, don't press the gas pedal more than 1/4 down, don't take the rpm's over 2500, don't turn on the AC or stereo, don't drive over 50 mph, leave the windows up for better aerodynamics, remove the rear seats when not in use, etc.
The more I read about hybrid, the less I like it. I don't necessarily care about squeaking that extra mpg out of it, I care about getting better overall mpg with my driving style and automotive needs. Hybrid doesn't seem to fit that.
Most people don't. So they are quite content with getting upper 40's for MPG, rather than 54 MPG like I'm getting.
Instead of blasting the Heater or A/C, just use a lower setting. Comfortable is quite realistic without using the maximum setting.
Instead of driving +75 MPH, drive 70 MPH. Or even better, take a slower highway, since they usually have less traffic anyway.
Instead of weaving through traffic and always being the first off the mark, just drive along with the rest of the crowd.
And sorry, no offense, I don't believe anyone that claims they properly maintain their tires unless they actually mention detail. I have even caught other hybrids off guard, by asking to verify by actually checking. Tires naturally leak, that's a fact. Plus, temperature changes cause the PSI to drop. That means unless you are either running above standard pressure or checking them twice a month, you are not maintaining them properly.
The same goes for the oil level. Change places squirt oil straight from a large barrel into your engine. There is literally no way to measure without stopping and carefully checking the dipstick. Most don't bother. 1/2 quart too much is very easy to squirt in. And that just kills MPG.
Switching to synthetic oil is a very simple way of increasing MPG too.
And of course, the least obvious but most beneficial tip is to stop taking short trips. Just a few minutes behind the wheel with a cold engine makes MPG plummet. (It's hard on the exhaust system too, no time to purge moisture build up.) Instead, just combine errand running into a series of short trips. Many people prefer to get that kind of chore over with anyway, so that tip is a welcome one.
The point is that these tips are common-sense and apply to any type of vehicle. If you do the same in a traditional vehicle, lower than estimated MPG will be the result with it too. This is not totally unique to hybrids, as some imply. It's just that you have a computer informing you of your behavior in a hybrid. In a traditional vehicle, you have no easy way of knowing.
JOHN
"Instead of blasting the Heater or A/C, just use a lower setting. Comfortable is quite realistic without using the maximum setting."
When I get into a car that's sweltering hot from being in the sun, I BLAST the AC. It's hot and I'm uncomfortable.
"Instead of driving +75 MPH, drive 70 MPH. Or even better, take a slower highway, since they usually have less traffic anyway."
Did I say I drive over 75mph? I don't. Less traffic than none? That's hard. Remember I said "when there's no traffic".
Did I say anything about weaving through traffic? In fact I specifically said "when there's no traffic". DON'T TWIST MY WORDS!
First off the mark? What mark? You know my commute? Once again, there's little or no traffic on my commute. And besides, have you driven a 4-cyl Subaru Outback? Not exactly the best acceleration.
You don't believe that I maintain my tires? I don't care.
As for oil changes, I've never had anyone else do them except myself. ever.
"And of course, the least obvious but most beneficial tip is to stop taking short trips."
That's a good one! Just try and convince a huge corporation to move their industrial complex out to my house in the boondocks on a lake. What do YOU consider a "short trip"? It takes me 20 minutes each way just to buy a gallon of milk. I'm not complaining (before you twist THAT around), just pointing out that nothing is a short trip for me. I love where I live.
All of these questions are rhetorical. Please do not answer. I have defended myself against your attack and close by saying that I will not waste any more of my time on this kind of stuff.
It is just a generic set of comments, the same tips repeated on many other threads, to many other readers, many other times.
Many discussions have turned non-constructive due to not having a basis to discuss from. In fact, just last week exactly that happened on the "up to the chore" thread. So this time, those facts were provided.
Seriously, nothing personal was intended. You obviously didn't read it that way though. Sorry.
JOHN
I had (mistakenly) thought that Toyota was using a high compression direct injection stratified charge engine. Oh, well. If Toyota puts in a modern engine they might get a 5-10 mpg increase, real world and probably highway. Then of course we would have to complain about the low quality US gas which holds back the BMW, Audi, and MB engines and would do the same to the Toyota!
Using the fuel economy tricks discussed elsewhere (no power accessories, light foot, etc.) drivers have gotten the E320 CDI into the high 40s mpg. I imagine a VW would break into the high 50s.
There is no doubt that the Prius is more efficient than the MB CDI, it weighs 900# less, has less frontal area, lower drag coefficient, and runs on lower rolling resistance rubber.
It appears that the MBs oil burner is more efficient than the Prius's gas engine, and the MBs Sensotronic brakes will have less friction (electrically retracts the pads from the rotors.)
Definition of the Atkinson Cycle follows:
The Atkinson cycle may also refer to a four stroke engine in which the intake valve is held open longer than normal to allow a reverse flow into the intake manifold. This reduces the effective compression ratio and when combined with an increased stroke and/or reduced combustion chamber volume allows the expansion ratio to exceed the compression ratio while retaining a normal compression pressure. This is desirable for good fuel economy because the compression ratio in a spark ignition engine is limited by the octane rating of the fuel used, while a high expansion ratio delivers a longer power stroke and reduces the heat wasted in the exhaust. This makes for a more efficient engine. Four stroke engines of this type with forced induction (supercharging) are known as Miller cycle engines.
P.S.
The first Prius in San Diego was 8 year 100,000 mile B to B warranty. I almost bought it. Unless the Toyota dealer was lying to me...