By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
The biggest problem with hybrid and diesel at this point is the lack of hybrid and diesel choices. Both technologies offer high mpg and acceptable performance. Diesel, diesel-hybrid, hydrogen-hybrid can all exist well into the future when petroleum is gone, and high mpg vehicles will prolong the time hydrogen is available.
1 Design a diesel like the hybrids. In other words make it weigh 1800 lbs like an insight without the electric bits would weigh. Imagine the mileage then. The Lupo in Europe is like this and gets 100 mpg.
2 Design a diesel-electric hybrid. This is what GM was working on, but eventually scraped.
One comment.
This is no longer the case since some upgrades, but when the Insight first came out it had 200 lbs of electrical goodies for the hybrid portion. This ment that the extra electric power was not doing too much more than making up for the extra weight during acceleration, and was just added weight for highway driving when the gas engine was used exclusively. Of course shutting down the engine, and using electricity during city driving helped mileage.
I thought Lupo versus Insight might make for an interesting comparison so I pulled up specs from VW-UK and Honda-UK websites. Numbers for Lupo (1.7 liter SDI) are in parentheses.
0-62 mph: 12.5s (16.8s)
Top Speed: 112 mph – governed (97 mph)
Urban: 68.9 mpg (47.9 mpg)
Extra Urban: 94.2 mpg (78.5 mpg)
CO2 emissions: 80 kg/m (119.5 kg/m)
I think diesel-electric will happen. In fact, Lotus came up with an idea of a light weight diesel-electric sports car.
Regarding evolution, moving from Insight to Civic Hybrid, Honda was able to trim down the weight and size of the electric assist package drastically (the battery pack was smaller by 66%!) and the output from the electric motor went up considerably.
I expect similar things (with more power and torque from the electric motor) when Accord Hybrid comes around this Fall.
I also would like to see the new Accord diesel engine - especially with my preferred tranny - manual. The more choices the better.
Of course the ideal Accord would be a wagon. The space of an SUV, and the economy of a
civic.
dave
Based on rumors, the Accord Hybrid will deliver 260 HP or so, and should deliver about 260 lb.-ft (peak arriving in low engine speeds). If this output, in a near luxury mid size family sedan can translate to 35 mpg or so, we may be talking 50-60% improvement in gas mileage.
The speed will depend on how much hp the engine had previously developed in lower gears. Transmission multiplies engine horsepower as you shift up gears to allow further development of horsepower. This is the concept that Dave hasn't grip yet.
Thrust at the wheel depends on the gear that you are in AND the state of engine RPM. Lower gear and high RPM increase thrust at the wheel.
"If they are going at the same speed, then regardless of the torque their engine produces, they have exactly the same thrust at the wheels. This is the bottom line when it comes to understanding power."
You are right in the case of CVT, which is the ideal transmission. If you are talking about manual or automatic with preset gear ratios, inefficiencies will "block" maximum power delivery to the wheel.
"Prius, you have to realize that the Accord is equipped with 5-speed manual transmission, and Prius is using an “automatic”."
I know. That's the best I could do to compare European apples to American apples. =D The Accord diesel review where I got 50-75mpg number from, didn't state that it was a top gear acceleration at all. It turns out that, that's the way they traditionally test manual transmission cars probably because people are lazy to downshift to get a burst of power.
"Back to Accord Diesel, here are two numbers that tell the same story (numbers from Autocar UK).
30 to 50 mph (Gear 4): 7.2s
30 to 50 mph (Gear 3): 4.0s"
At 30mph cruising, most drivers will be in 4rd gear to save fuel. Do they include downshifting time in 3rd gear acceleration time?
Dennis
Weight would not effect mpg during highway cruising as much as aerodynamic. Weight would be a big factor during stop and go traffic since it takes more gas to move heavier weight and eventually to be wasted as heat in the brake pads. Then how is the extra hybrid components on Insight be a dead weight?
Dennis
Did they say if Sanyo is supplying Cylinder or Prismatic batteries? The reason I ask is because Ford Escape Hybrid uses previous generation Sanyo Cylinder shape NiMH batteries which takes up more space.
I am more excited about Camry hybrid. As I estimated in Accord Hybrid vs. Camry Hybrid board, I4 127hp Atkinson cycle ICE with 100KW electric motor would outperform Accord V6 240hp. Passing response and power of TCH will be electrifying scary.
Dennis
Are you saying the current Accord only gets 15-18 MPG? My wife's 1990 LS400 with a V8 gets consistently 27 mpg and it is magnitudes above the Accord for luxury, performance & comfort.
And if that happens, there is your 50-60% improvement. It would be 100% improvement over a car delivering 15-18 mpg. And since when was LS400 considered a near luxury car? May be by current standards, the old is, but you could get two Accord Hybrids for the price of one LS430.
I’m sure an onboard gasoline or diesel generator can easily replace the fuel cell stack part. But, only those who may have worked on these projects can tell if it would make sense for all the reasons that hybrids are about.
Honda EV-Plus (plug-in electric vehicle) and its AC motor were used as the basis to develop the FCX. A few of these are running around (production version) in California and Japan where Honda has set up refueling stations.
Dennis
I like the fact you can get stability control in the VW's, but you can't get:
NAV
Curtain Air bags
Smart entry (I'm so used to it now!!)
Traction control (not sure if the diesels have it)
Bluetooth
Xenons
Can anyone thing of a diesel vehicle that has those features that I can buy for less than 30k?? -end
All VW's have curtain airbags, ESP is an option on TDI and includes traction control, NAV is not an option though it can easily be added aftermarket, Xenons are option on New Beetle TDI, no smart entry or bluetooth.
What good is bluetooth on a vehicle?
Smart entry is nice.
My wife would be using that navigation screen, and the phone. Toyota should have considered that and activated the features if the right seat was occupied (the sensors are already there for the airbag).
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
___Think of how many "Safety features" are required on something like a lawn tractor that only frustrate the operator...etc.
Perhaps a simple idea like a pivot may help:
Pivot the screen tward the passenger and it will display while driving. Turn it the other way and it goes off. Wonder if that would be acceptable to the legal departments?
Steve
The cost the dealer would like to charge for maint. on my TDI is about the same as the Toyota dealer would like to charge for my Tacoma or the Mazda dealer would like to charge for Protege.
Diesel is simple to work on except the timing belt and that is due at 100,000 miles. Hybrid is pretty darn complex to work on. Hopefully with a Toyota or Honda hybrid there would be no unexpected problems.
Who needs money the most? Perhaps the Russians or their cohorts in other parts of the former foe? Start thinking. Where is the money going to show up at? If there is money to be made from the old materials, then it is most likely going to happen somewhere and probably in a area where life is very cheap. In todays world, it would be expensive and dangerous to try such a project in our area of the woods... Oh well, food for thought???
I guess the potential for nuke fuel for use in cars is really out there and it is just a matter of time before it becomes available...
I don't think official controls will be relaxed on this substance...smugglers perhaps but not reliable enough to build a line of cars with.
Someone would build a bomb and make a big mess...hurt people etc.
Steve
1. Shop around for a dealer you can trust. This make take some time/effort, but asking around can save you a lot of headaches.
2. Do not drop your car off and say "do the xx,xxx mile service". You need to read your manual, find out what is required, and then tell the dealer exactly what you want them to do.
I'm sure there are some dealers that charge $100 for a oil change on a TDI. They may also be doing a lot of inspections, etc that aren't required. $50 is more reasonable for a dealer oil change with the synthetic oil being the only expensive item. The 10k mile intervals more than make up for that added cost.
I learned the above with my first Toyota. I had done the oil changes myself, but decided to have the 30k miles service performed by the dealer. I read the manual and assumed the dealer would perform the 30k mile service as outlined in the owners manual, which was basically oil/filter, a few inspections, tire rotation, etc. Well they did that plus about a million other things and tried to charge me $600. Lesson learned. I'm the customer, i'll tell THEM what to do to MY car.
As for the low-sulphur diesel, the biggest related problem TDI's seem to have is with intakes clogging. The Passat 2.0L hasn't proven to have this problem yet, but it wouldn't surprise me. A lot of city driving (idling) or light-throttle driving will increase the likelyhood of a clogged intake. There are ways around this. One is to override the EGR system that pumps that oily exhaust back into the intake. The other is to drive the car more swiftly and make sure you give it some full throttle runs on occassion. This will help clean out the intake and put a smile on your face at the same time. I've practiced these techniques (particularly the hard acceleration) and am currently above 80k miles on my Jetta. I peaked into the intake around 70k miles and it was relatively clean.
I quite agree with your assessment that it is necessary to find an honest dealer, and to tell him precisely what you want him to do when you take your car in for service. I too have been "stung" a couple of times, and so I am leary of dealers.
Diesel and Hybrid drivers have to be happy about the mileage with the high fuel cost.
You also need to turn the veggie back to normal diesel for shut down. This will flush the lines with diesel to ensure an easy start. Not the best set-up if you only drive short distances, particularly in the winter. During the summer you wouldn't need to flush the lines between short stops.
I've thought about this because all my trips are usually 100's of miles at a time and it would be ideal. But I've come to the conclusion that I'm too lazy. It's a bit of work to collect the grease, filter it, pour it in, plus more frequent filter changes. I don't really want to spend what little free time I have on free fuel. I put about 30k miles a year on my Jetta and only spend about $1,000. My time's more valuable than that at this point. Diesel was $1.69 yesterday, 87 octane $2.05 at the same station. I'm already saving a bundle;)
Hybrids can't use biodiesel or waste veggie oil like a diesel can. Make sure every sentence has the words hybrid and diesel.
I could be interpreting it wrong, and/or things could change, but that is my take.
The biggest difference I see in driving my 2000 TDI Beetle is passing acceleration. I can be at 60-65 mph and need to scoot around someone on the interstate. All I have to do is put the petal down, no down shifting, no waiting for a long clear window. Before I realize it, I am up in the mid 80s to low 90s, and I haven't even passed 3k on the tach. The "slow, stinky" engines like to run. It does take some re-learning to drive one and get quick acceleration, but that same comment can be made about any car. No two handle the same.
VW has a diesel that is capable of 150 hp and really screams. Not sure of all of the data points, but they have considered dropping it into a Porsche. Imagine a diesel Porsche that has the same performance as a gas, with about twice the mileage!
Another advantage of diesel. SVO or straight vegetable oil. Diesel owners do not have to rely on imported fuel.
I still believe that a diesel hybrid would be optimum.
The industry typically quotes the price of a diesel over a tradition gas as $1,200. That article pointed out the price of a standard conversion kit as $800.
That works out to a $2,000 premium... which just happens to be what HSD (the system in the Toyota & Lexus hybrids) is expected to cost once high-volume production finally kicks in.
The advantage of HSD is that it is cleaner and more efficient than diesel. Since there clearly isn't enough veggie oil available to compete with that, what's the benefit over HSD with gas?
Also, keep in mind that owners (like myself) aren't using 100% gas anyway. 10% is ethanol (US grown fuel). And the ability to use 85% ethanol in a HSD hybrid is a realistic option too; FFV rollout in traditional vehicles has proven that already.
JOHN
With regards to Civic Hybrid, the only market (that I'm aware of) with diesel and gasoline models availability as well is UK. Here is on-the-road pricing for comparable models (in pounds)...
Hybrid: 15,013
Diesel: 14,013
1.6/EX: 14,013
I'm not sure if the diesel and the hybrid are equipped similarly. The Hybrid in UK is identical to American HCH, the diesel and the 1.6/EX pricing is for the 5-door hatchback models.