"Here are some more CR results CR 150 mile loop: VW Golf TDI 50mpg, Prius 48mpg CR highway: VW Golf TDI 54, Prius 50mpg" __Isn't CR the one that only achieved 26MPG in a HCH? 30 below EPA? If I'm wong I apologize. Bet I could achieve a TDI down to 26 or worse too. It would take considerable effort to average 26 in a HCH.
If one wants to have debate with Prius that's fine but must realize it is worlds different than Hondas system. "Hybrid cars" are pretty general. As far as HCH goes:
"It is easy to obtain or exceed the EPA estimate for a diesel, not so for a hybrid" __I easily beat EPA by +15MPG trip after trip and +10 tank after tank.
sebring95: __As the article you quoted says, how can keeping your blinker off save gas? I've read similar articles that say the Hybrids are dangerous because power lines are strung through the doors. (I suppose next to the gas lines in there :-) Also, "Which appears to be the exact case for the hybrids. Drive them with a light foot all the time and you might get the EPA numbers. Drive rediculously slow and you might exceed them __I drive mine normally along with traffic. The cars "sweet MPG" spot is 53-58MPG.
"14 miles of two-lane hilly backroads, I run 60-70mph generally. Slowest speed is 45mph for a couple switchbacks. Sometimes pass a couple people which a usually quick blasts from 50mph-80mph." __And you would post a quote saying lack of blinkers are dangerous? My daily commute is 20 miles hilly N. Ga. back road w/speed limit of 45-55. Around here if you 70 on these roads you get stopped and wrecklessly at 80 even passing you go to jail. I got your point, but these roads I travel on aveage 55-58MPH.
"There are TDI folks that regularly get closer to 60mpg." __I get 60-61 at the end of almost EVRERY commute. I also pass slower drivers but admit it isn't full throttle going 80. Not that I couldn't but it would be too wasteful. Why drop 2MPG on my trip Avg for a slowpoke?
"I'll regularly run upto 80-90mph for a few stretches" I used to drive like that too swerveing and passing. That idiot driving 75 in a 55 was just too slow and was just ASKING me to blast him away. My wife and 3 kids are relieved that I'm driving for mileage & close to speed limits now instead of enviting death.
Truly I don't mean this a a poke, I hope the folks who drive 80-90 realize that there are whole families that can be erased by a half second mistake. Thanks Steve
Lucky for me, I get to drive highways that don't have much traffic and 80-90mph is not inherently dangerous. I generally run 75mph on 65mph limited access highways, when traffic permits. On stretches of even less traffic (and chance of being ticketed) I'll run 80-90. On my 45 mile leg this morning, I probably encountered less than 20 other vehicles. Running 75mph, I'm passed at times. On the way home, it will be slightly more but swerving and passing like an idiot are not something I do. Since you drive slow roads, you could likely get terrific gas mileage regardless of vehicle. I would imagine you could squeak out 60mpg with a 5-speed TDI. More likely 55mpg. It would probably drive you crazy though, 55mph in a Jetta TDI feels like you're going 25mph.
If I only drove 20 miles per day, I'd likely not own a seperate vehicle for commuting anyway.
Oh, where's all this "blinkers" are dangerous quotes coming from? I don't recall reading/linking anything that has to do with what I refer to as turn signals.
Prius is rated at 51 mpg highway and most 75 to 87% of EPA rating is typical for most hybrid drivers. You are certainly doing much better than 44 mpg that would be typical for highway driving.
City is rated at 60 mpg.
Independent testing yielded 35 mpg city for Prius.
quote- Data from independent product-testing organization Consumer Reports indicates that hybrid cars get less than 60 percent of EPA estimates while navigating city streets. In Consumer Reports' real-world driving test, the Civic Hybrid averaged 26 mpg in the city, while the Toyota Prius averaged 35 mpg, much less than their respective EPA estimates of 47 and 60 mpg. Hybrid cars performed much closer to EPA estimates in Consumer Reports' highway tests.-end
Less than 60% of EPA rating in city. Hmmmm... And you get 60 to 61 mpg?
What are your driving conditions Steve? Downhill both ways? You stated hilly with 45-55 mph speeds. This would be more similar to highway than city.
I work in R&D and have found that claims outside of typical expected performance are false, not consistently repeatable, or errors.
Since your mpg is consitently above expected performance parameters I'll let the audience come to their own conclusion.
"In Consumer Reports' real-world driving test, the Civic Hybrid averaged 26 mpg in the city" __I could do that poorly in any diesel too. If this is a real unbiased driving test then I can be happy: I get ~ 40MPG better than CR's "Professional" drivers! "Hmmmm... And you get 60 to 61 mpg?" __Consistantly almost every trip.Sometimes better: http://www.steve-dez.us/643.jpg http://www.steve-dez.us/688.jpg I have a few slightly better pics I haven't uploaded. None of my tank averages are lower than 57MPG. These figures are also calculated every other tank. If your diesel isn't reaching these numbers then what can I say? Admitted my city driving is limited and is not a major part of my daily commute. Still according to my FCD it is still around EPA.
"What are your driving conditions Steve? Downhill both ways? You stated hilly with 45-55 mph speeds." __Thanks but you were curiuos: My daily trip into Atlanta is 45 miles. How can one drive downhill both ways? My first 20 miles is country highway lots of "V" hills but generally uphill climb of several thousand feet over the 20m. Then is basically flat for 5 miles. At that point I enter a 65MPH limit freeway (I85) 55-65MPH and ride that into Atlanta. Still BIG hills & valleys but basically downhill for about 18m. I exit I85 at 5:20PM onto the worst city traffic of the day and drive another 3-4 miles to work. I almost always arrive with 60 to +62MPG. Reverse for my way home. Both ways I am weighted by a gradual incline in the first part broken up with big valley hills. These hills reduce MPG not add to it.
"I work in R&D and have found that claims outside of typical expected performance are false, not consistently repeatable, or errors. Since your mpg is consitently above expected performance parameters I'll let the audience come to their own conclusion."
So what you are saying is that the numerous folks who "Claim to" significantly beat EPA such as xcel (who is strongly in favor of diesel), Rick Reese and many others are not repeatable, errors, false or otherwise misleading Edmunds readers because you work in R&D?
sebring95: From your post #406: (Had to turn off)"all electronics including turning signal(compromise and dangerous)." Thanks Steve
sebring95: From your post #406: (Had to turn off)"all electronics including turning signal(compromise and dangerous)."
Nothing in my #406 about that. You're referring to an article that was linked to somewhere here, as I recall reading that line. I never said anything about that being dangerous. Not like anyone uses their turn signals anyway;o
Having considered buying a TDI Jetta or Golf I am concerned about reliability. I need a second car (besides my 04 Prius) and am concerned about long term reliability and maintenance. I can't seem to find much information online as these cars are rare compared to their gas counterparts. I like the fact you can get stability control in the VW's, but you can't get: NAV Curtain Air bags Smart entry (I'm so used to it now!!) Traction control (not sure if the diesels have it) Bluetooth Xenons
Can anyone thing of a diesel vehicle that has those features that I can buy for less than 30k??
Driving style and patters make a huge difference in fuel economy. That's why it's hard to really compare fuel economy. If you want to "prove" something, you can always get the worst result of car 'a' and the best result of 'b'.
I am sure misterme gets the fuel economy he describes. He doesn't speed, race to 60 or brake for no reason. I bet he will get good mileage in an ycar he drives, but not the 60 he gets in his prius.
The gold/jetta does have traction control and side curtain air bags on the base model. Not sure about the other items--maybe on the passat in a year or two?
Reliability is a question, of course. A friend of mine is off toyotas permanently now, i think, after his first-year passat experience. VW's rep is they the cars need TLC but will last forever with it. Sort of the reverse of toyota.
BUT if reliability is tantamount, i think those sort of things (bluetooth, nav, smart entry) are what you want to avoid, toyota or not!
Yes, you're exactly right. Also with Cruise control turned on and set to speed limits I get near the EPA. ...And I don't own a Prius. My Grand Caravan's FCD says 24 but the most I can actually muster is about 19.
Will my next car to replace the GC be a regular ICE version? No, I won't settle for 19MPG anymore from anything. If I were looking to replace the GC today I'd probably go diesel. Thanks Steve
I too am not willing to accept poor mileage anymore, expecially looking at what else is going on in the world, as much as i can rationalize a new sports car.
"How much pollution is generated in the manufacture of toxic battery cells used in hybrid cars that is not generated in the manufacture of a diesel car? "
torque will be divided by two rpm will be multiplied by two.
Do you debate any of these facts? If so, which one? Please do not go into some bizarre cognition about cvt's and "HSD.""
Sure, I will Keep It Simple, Stupid(KISS). Total power output at the wheel = engine torque x drive shaft RPM. Engine torque stays the same while the wheel RPM double, therefore, doubling the total horsepower. You need to think harder. You can thank me after you finally get it. =D
___It is one thing to debate; it is another to call someone names. Usbseawolf2000 may not have the same ideas and perspective but I respect his opinion irregardless. Simply remove the BS title is all!
People have driven Golf TDIs 1200 miles on a tank of gas by going 45 to 50 mph. A hybrid cant do that.
___As for driving 1,200 miles in a Hybrid on a single tank, 2 tanks ago I drove 1,228 miles and I should easily hit 1,300 on my current tank. This is back and forth through Chicago’s finest day after day after day. And I will have done so for < $25.00!
___You can find the above over at Greenhyrid.com. Afterwards, I encourage you too include your own tank over tank mileage in Greenhybrid’s Real Mileage Database.
What's up with your direct personal attack in your message title? If you disagree with what I said, your title is a nice way to reflect your own image off me.
"Diesel engines produce less CARBON DIOXIDE than gas engines."
Gas engines produce much less NOx than diesel engines. Low sulfter diesel engines produce less CO2 than gas engines. LSD won't be here until 2006 or even longer, who knows what is going to happen? HSD hybrids produce less CO2 and NOx than gas or diesel engines. I didn't want to bring the emission issue up before because, well, it can get dirty. ;D
"Prius and Insights are for people making political statments. Diesels are real cars, not some coffin like, environmental diaster. The precious metals used in the batteries are toxic to the evironment."
If your argument is based on your visual opinion, I think most European diesel cars look funny because they are small and weird looking. Nickel is not categorized as a toxic metal! Nickel can be found in many coins around the world including in US currency Nickel. You probably have contact with Nickel everyday! Just my 5 cents. ;D In a large amount, Nickel becomes semi-toxic. Too much of anything is not good anyway.
The only thing that is going for diesel is more energy contained in the fuel.
The US (threw out the Kyoto treaty) approach on pollution is to minimize NO. Europe choose to minimize carbon dioxide. New diesels produce less carbon dioxide/mile than regular cars. If you are so green with joy about the hybrids and emissions, go find a used GM electric car and drive that. I think there one for sale on Ebay. Remember, big three used smoke and mirrors and lobbyist to poo poo hybrids and diesels. I hear their hybrid technology doesn't work well and that is why they delayed the introduction. GM and Ford will do to Hybrids what GM did to diesels.
ULSD <50ppm is available right now in California and in various parts of the midwest. Arco and Koch refineries both produce diesel fuel with <50ppm sulfur. BP sells it to the city of Chicago bus fleet but not regular gas stations. With that fuel and the particulate filter, the new diesel engines can pass the Tier II emission standards.
In the guiness book of world records. A regular TDI was driven about 1200 miles on a single tank og diesel. The poor guy drove it at around 45 mph with minimal changes in speed in Australia. I really dont believe you drove a hydrid in Chicago for 1200 miles.
Erik, You may be correct about ULSD being available now in CA, but the "CARB" regulations that 5 states agree to (including NY) doesn't make ULSD a requirement until June 2006. And the new requirement is 15ppm sulphur. That means that I cannot buy a new diesel in any of those 5 states until then. optional vs. requirement.
This works for me. Jeep has a limited run of their diesel Liberty for 2005. Hopefully it's a runaway success and I can buy one in 2006!
I will Keep It Simple, Stupid(KISS). Total power output at the wheel = engine torque x drive shaft RPM. Engine torque stays the same while the wheel RPM double, therefore, doubling the total horsepower.
Wrong, unless you meant engine rpm (instead of wheel rpm).
Consider a vehicle with only two gear ratios. Gear 1 (2:1) Gear 2 (1:1)
The engine in the vehicle makes 100 lb.-ft from 1000 rpm to 6000 rpm (a perfectly flat torque curve). Let us assume that the vehicle attains 20 mph at 2000 rpm in second gear (20 mph corresponds to the wheel speed/rpm, while 2000 rpm corresponds to engine rpm).
While at 20 mph in gear 2, you shift to gear 1. The gear ratio doubles. Does that mean the wheel rpm (measured in mph in this case) would double? NO. In gear 1, the engine rpm will be 4000 rpm while the wheel speed is still 20 mph (so the wheel “rpm” stays the same, does not double).
Horsepower at the wheel will be double, however (because the torque at the wheel is multiplied by two times by the gearing). Assuming no drive train loss, horsepower at wheel would be equal to the horsepower at crank at 4000 rpm (76 HP in this case).
The car will be pulling twice as strong at 20 mph in gear 1 than it would at 20 mph in gear 2 (although the torque output is same, at 2000 rpm or at 4000 rpm).
Apology accepted because I only forgive to those who are willing to forgive themselves. A slip through your fingers. You must type fast. ;D
"If you are so green with joy about the hybrids and emissions, go find a used GM electric car and drive that."
Electric cars have limited speed, performance, safety, and range. You are asking to sacrifice to be green. Emission produced during electricity generation is another question. Hybrid Synergy Drive enables us to achieve very low emission without sacrificing performance, safety, nor range. In fact, it even improves performance and range. Safety is probably improved due to VSC and computer controlled sensors throughout the whole car.
"I hear their hybrid technology doesn't work well and that is why they delayed the introduction. GM and Ford will do to Hybrids what GM did to diesels."
You were referring to 80mpg Supercar project during Clinton administration, you are right. Those diesel electric hybrids achieves high mpg with trade-offs. They used all aluminum to save weight and aerodynamics were taken to the extreme. You can find out more information about Ford Prodigy and GM Precept. HSD is the real thing, even Ford is using it in the upcoming 2005 Escape hybrid. Demands for it are going wild, just to show from the result.
The bottom line, HSD hybrid cars will have lower emission than the cleanest diesel. HSD will also have an edge over diesel. HSD will dominate in performance versus diesel. It will become more clear when Lexus 400h, Camry hybrid and others come out. Diesel never caught up in US and I don't see how it will soon. Gas electric made a huge leap further than diesel with low sulfer fuel and modern diesel engine.
You're mixing apples and oranges here. In your example, the horsepower at the wheel doubles in gear 1 vs. gear 2 because the engine that you described (flat torque curve) has twice the horsepower at 4000 rpm that it does at 2000 rpm. The gearing itself had nothing to do with it. The relevant example would be if you were going 40 mph in gear 2 (engine turning 4000 rpm), then you shifted into gear 1 and went to 20 mph (engine still turning 4000 rpm). There would then be twice the torque at the wheel, but the horsepower at the wheel would remain the same.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
In the guiness book of world records. A regular TDI was driven about 1200 miles on a single tank og diesel. The poor guy drove it at around 45 mph with minimal changes in speed in Australia. I really dont believe you drove a hydrid in Chicago for 1200 miles.
___Yes I live in Chicago and yes, I drive through the Chicago Interstate and Tollway system from the Wisconsin border on I94 to South of Joliet on I55 I have 9 - 96 mile segments at > 100 mpg in the last 2 weeks alone. You can believe what you want but maybe the following pic will help you understand what a 5-speed Insight is capable of? This particular segment of mine was a personal best as well as wind aided with an ~ 15 - 20 mph tail wind for ~ 2/3 of that particular commute I drove this same commute in a heavy rain today and achieved a middling 86.x on the way to work this morning and 90.4 mpg on the way back this afternoon. It dropped my current tanks average to 98.7 mpg from the 100.5 mpg I was at before I left I am at 772.2 miles and still have 12 of 20 bars left on the fuel tank. 1,200 miles is a slam dunk on this tank with 1,300 still a possibility if I get warmer and clear weather early next week.
___Usbseawolf2000, you are still missing the other side of the equation in regards to HSD or any Hybrid system available today. They are slower then there conventional counterparts (04 Prius vs. 03/04 Corolla w/ Auto/Stick – Camry w/ Auto) and they carry a $3,000 - $5,000 price premium. This premium cannot be made up on fuel cost savings whereas a Common rail diesel can achieve ULEV type emissions (the Accord iCDTi does this in Europe on LSD today) but with a cost premium of < $1,000. Performance is clearly in the Diesel camp (Accord Diesel: 0 - 60 in 9.0 seconds) as well as costs. Emissions Well considering every Toyota Echo on the road today is a LEV and the Toyota Sequoia and Land Cruiser are 2 of the absolute worst polluting SUV’s on the planet, why not instead power all Toyota’s w/ LEV/ULEV based Diesels and clean up the US’ air instead?
You're right about that. My statement was that with regard to horsepower the gearing simply serves to determine what the engine speed is, and the horsepower at the wheel will be determined by the engine's horsepower at that engine speed. Whereas gearing actually multiplies torque, in that it will increase the torque at the wheel relative to the engine's torque at that engine speed, it cannot change the horsepower at the wheel relative to the engine's horsepower at that engine speed.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
"While at 20 mph in gear 2, you shift to gear 1. The gear ratio doubles. Does that mean the wheel rpm (measured in mph in this case) would double? NO. In gear 1, the engine rpm will be 4000 rpm while the wheel speed is still 20 mph "
If the engine is at 4000rpm and in gear 2, the speed would double.
"Whereas gearing actually multiplies torque, in that it will increase the torque at the wheel relative to the engine's torque at that engine speed, *it cannot change the horsepower at the wheel relative to the engine's horsepower at that engine speed.* "
"Whereas gearing actually multiplies torque, in that it will increase the torque at the wheel relative to the engine's torque at that engine speed"
And it reduces the max speed a car can travel. If a car moves slower, less work is done. Therefore, less horsepower and less fuel is required to get up to that speed.
In the case where transmission divide engine's torque, the car can achieve faster mph and more work can be done. Therefore, more horsepower and more fuel is required to get up to that speed.
"Usbseawolf2000, you are still missing the other side of the equation in regards to HSD or any Hybrid system available today. They are slower then there conventional counterparts (04 Prius vs. 03/04 Corolla w/ Auto/Stick – Camry w/ Auto) and they carry a $3,000 - $5,000 price premium."
You can pick on Prius' lower performance or price premium but not both. It is a trap that I could easily fall into, since I can be biased also ;D. Prius has lower performance than Camry in some tests such as 0-60 mph but Prius performs better on 30-50mph and probably braking and other tests. Prius has smart entry and other features that are not available in camry for the same price. Overall, Prius come out very competitive with Camry or Corolla in value.
"Well considering every Toyota Echo on the road today is a LEV and the Toyota Sequoia and Land Cruiser are 2 of the absolute worst polluting SUV’s on the planet, why not instead power all Toyota’s w/ LEV/ULEV based Diesels and clean up the US’ air instead?"
Because, currently HSD is lower in emission than diesel and more fuel efficient. Our fuel infrustructers are mainly gasoline and change takes money. Toyota believes that the cost of HSD hybrids can come down so much that they are betting their money on it and aim to gain total global market of 15% by 2010.
You can pick on Prius' lower performance or price premium but not both. It is a trap that I could easily fall into, since I can be biased also ;D
___Yes, I can pick both. Especially when considering a Corolla LE as the cost/mile is less, its initial cost is far lower albeit with a loss of amenities, and it has higher performance. In the case of the Camry, I haven’t priced one out in about 3 months given the comparison wars have died down somewhat but when I was looking at the 03’s last year, it was a XLE w/ Leather, Powered Sun roof, 16” Alloys, and loaded using the 4 banger. I believe it was ~ $22,000 out the door and had far more creature comforts including a better suspension and brake HW design all around as well as lower interior dB’s at speed
Because, currently HSD is lower in emission than diesel and more fuel efficient.
___You seem to have missed the Accord diesel again. It has emissions all over the map from SULEV to TLEV depending on what is being looked at (beats Euro IV already) but also arrives with a 0 - 60 time of just 9 seconds in a heavier automobile and its fuel economy is only a few mpg less in real world driving. Drop off 2 seconds to 60 w/ a 1.7 L and the fuel economy of the Accord Diesel would be better then that of the already anemic Prius, I am quite sure.
___Afterwards, do you want to speak of possible long term reliability of the Accord 2.2 L iCDTi Diesel vs. the Prius’ 1.5 L ICE, HSD, Pack, Inverters, MG Sets, and Controllers?
Yes, because the electric motors in HSD are also powered by the gas engine.
I have to step in here and correct you. The electric motor is NOT driven by the gas engine, it is driven by the batteries. When I test drove the first one in San Diego I drove several miles without the gas motor starting. The gas engine is only used to charge the batteries and give extra boost when needed like at 70 MPH. I am curious what are we going to do with all the highly toxic batteries that will be going bad here in a few years?
Toss them into the lake what else? (Satire) I may be wrong but I think I read somewhere that Nimh batteries are not classified as a toxic substance. These are not lead-acid.
Electric is mostly gas powered. Brake regen counts for less than 20% of a recarge, coasting charge for maybe 10% and the rest is managed by the engine. Electric motor uses the battery- engine recharges ~ 70% Thanks Steve
I believe you are right, Prius NIMH batteries are the least problematic of all the batteries in use. I just read this interesting review concerning poor mileage on a new Prius. It looks like short trips to the grocery store will yield very poor mileage: MSNBC; Miguel Llanos, writes: Frustrated, I sought answers from Toyota and its Prius guru, Dave Hermance. As soon as I said that my commute and other city driving were short trips, Hermance interrupted. “That’s it right there, that’s the problem,” he said, explaining that mileage suffers during the first five minutes of a cold start because of the way the Prius and similar low-polluting cars curb emissions. That would also explain that while my combined city/highway mileage was 42 mpg, I got just 31 mpg on my five-mile commute to work.
It sounds to me like a person that travels 30 miles each way to work could gain some benefit from a hybrid, while the housewife taking the kids to school and trips to the store would get relatively poor mileage (31 mpg).
"The electric motor is NOT driven by the gas engine, it is driven by the batteries."
Where do you think the batteries got powered by? To clearify, Prius has two motors/generators. One can generate electricity and power the electric motor directly, without going through the battery. This saves battery charge/discharge cycle and prolong the battery life. All the electricity in Prius is directly or indirectly from the gas engine since, you can not plug it in to recharge.
"The gas engine is only used to charge the batteries and give extra boost when needed like at 70 MPH."
Not true. Gas engine kicks in when you go faster than about 42 MPH or demand more than 10KW of electricity from the battery.
Short trips suffer from low mpg because Prius(HSD) is designed to reduce emission even if that means sacrafice some fuel. It is the worse case during the winter when the engine is cold as ice. I believe it was the same time frame when they did the interview.
I'll stand corrected on the 70mph. That was what the salesman told me while on a test drive about 3 years ago. Personally I think it is an engineering marvel. My wife just can't get past the size and the "looks". Maybe we will re-visit the technology when Lexus brings out a larger version. And all the smoke and hype clear. It is definitely a step in the right direction.
"It(Accord diesel) has emissions all over the map from SULEV to TLEV depending on what is being looked at (beats Euro IV already) but also arrives with a 0 - 60 time of just 9 seconds in a heavier automobile and its fuel economy is only a few mpg less in real world driving."
Emission wise, gas electric is going to be lower than the cleanest diesel. I agree that diesel performs the best in 0-60mph test due to huge torque of diesel nature. I am expecting Camry hybrid to have 0-60mph in less than 8 secs since the heavier 400h will achieve that. Diesel will not be able to match passing power to HSD gas electric since most diesel cars have low hp/weight ratio. Fuel economy of Camry hybrid should be around 45mpg combined. Real world mpg will vary on the driving style and should beat diesel's fuel efficiency. My knowledge of emission and fuel efficiency are based on Toyota of Europe research and have not seen any conflicting data yet.
"do you want to speak of possible long term reliability of the Accord 2.2 L iCDTi Diesel vs. the Prius’ 1.5 L ICE, HSD, Pack, Inverters, MG Sets, and Controllers?"
HSD Prius has been out for public since 1997 and had proven to be very reliable. How about iCDTi diesel powertrain? I believe diesel engines need carbon built-up cleaning every 100k miles which requires rebuilt of the whole engine.
"I believe diesel engines need carbon built-up cleaning every 100k miles which requires rebuilt of the whole engine."
That hasn't been true for diesel or gas for a long time. Big diesel semis have "major service" around 800,000 miles. And why would carbon build up require a full rebuild?
In some (not all) areas diesel has a longevity advantage, because diesel fuel itself is a lubricant on the cylinder walls. On the other hand, injector and fuel pump may neen to be replaced more often. The gas engine has more moving parts. I think longevity comes down to maufacturing quality more than anything else.
Makes me think of that old grand prix we had though. That simple, big pushrod needed a rebuild at 80K.
Displacement: 1.5 liter(Toyota.com) Engine power: 76 hp(Toyota.com) Weight: 2,890 lbs(Toyota.com) 0-60mph: 11.3(C&D), 9.7(MotorTrend) 50-70mph(Not 50-75): 7.9(C&D) Fuel Economy: 55 mpg(EPA), 45 mpg(John's Winter), 50+ mpg(John's Spring) Emission: J-ULEV, AT-PZEV, and Petrol Euro IV(96% NOx lower than Diesel Euro IV requirement, hydrocarbon and nitrous oxide emissions are respectively 80% and 87.5% lower than required by EURO IV regulations for petrol engines)
HSD Prius passing power and lower emission are superior!
Thanks dudleyr for some input. Accord diesel is only offered in manual transmission. Yes, automatic would make it much slower and less mpg. Eventhough bio-diesel is 100% renewable, it needs to be blended with (80%?)unrenewable diesel to be practically usable.
"Fact- Biodiesel can be used as a pure fuel or blended with petroleum in any percentage."
From what I read, viscosity of biodiesel prevent it from using during cold weather. Therefore, blending is necessary. It isn't true?
"What is the reason for the continued campaign of false info. on diesel?"
Not campaigning against diesel, just trying to learn where HSD stand in respect to other available technologies.
Diesel fuel also has longer carbon chain. If carbon is going to built up, diesel will most likely be affected by it. May I request links to the most updated diesel engine technology and biodiesel sources? Thanks.
"Accord diesel is only offered in manual transmission."
That probably explains the passing times--such times are often given as "top gear" passing times. This has been discussed here before, hasn't it?
"Eventhough bio-diesel is 100% renewable, it needs to be blended with (80%?)unrenewable diesel to be practically usable."
No--that's not true at all. I think you're thinking of the fact that in some areas a 20% blend is offered to reduce emissions. Even 5% biodiesel in the blend reduces emissions. Plus it can make yuor exhaust smell like french fries, yum yum.
"From what I read, viscosity of biodiesel prevent it from using during cold weather. Therefore, blending is necessary. It isn't true?"
The trick is to mix in 10% or so ethanol, much as is done with gasoline, for different reasons. Complete renewability, baby!
I agree. In my experimenting with biodiesel this winter, I left what I have to assume was properly blended biodiesel and standard #2 winterized truck-stop diesel in mason jars outside. In -10F ambient temps, they both were equally fluid. Also for fun left some summer diesel in another mason jar, it was thicker (say 5W-30ish on a warm day) and had ice crystals.
I've run B100 in my TDI and it's a great fuel system cleaner:) Power and economy are equal. Only downside for me is the local B100 distributor (which is actually 30 miles away) is a bit to proud of his product and prices it out of this world. The next B100 supplier is about 80 miles away (and where I obtained my test fuel and any fuel I've run in my car) is fairly competitive on pricing. It's still much higher than standard #2 diesel I can buy here, currently $1.67. About $.35/gallon cheaper than 87 octane.
If the engine is at 4000rpm and in gear 2, the speed would double. This is a no-brainer. Since gear 2 is taller (by 2x) compared to gear 1, you’re going to see 2x the speed at the same engine speed.
Power is a relationship between “rate” AND “work done”. In simplified terms, work done is directly related to “thrust”. So, we could say that power establishes a relationship between “rate” and “thrust”.
Assume that car A is delivering 200 HP and car B is delivering 200 HP. This does not guarantee that they are going at the same speed (“rate”) or producing the same thrust at the wheels. If they are going at the same speed, then regardless of the torque their engine produces, they have exactly the same thrust at the wheels. This is the bottom line when it comes to understanding power.
Regarding the accelerative performance numbers you quoted for Accord Diesel (and compared) to Prius, you have to realize that the Accord is equipped with 5-speed manual transmission, and Prius is using an “automatic”.
In a typical acceleration test with automatic transmission, they leave the gearbox in the tallest gear, but being “automatic”, the transmission switches to a lower gear (second or third) and produces quicker results. With manual transmission (esp. C&D and like), they leave the gearbox in the tallest gear and it stays there for the run, producing slower times. This is the reason you would see a Dodge Viper w/6-speed run 30-50 mph in about 10 seconds while family sedans with automatics can do it in 4 seconds or less.
Back to Accord Diesel, here are two numbers that tell the same story (numbers from Autocar UK). 30 to 50 mph (Gear 4): 7.2s 30 to 50 mph (Gear 3): 4.0s
Just one flick drops the time to nearly half! This is a good reason why you should not compare numbers directly between manual transmission equipped cars and those with automatic.
There are a lot of misconceptions here about current diesel that stem from 1980 technology. I'm glad that Dennis has asked for updated info sources so that he can learn where hybrid stands w/r/t other alternatives. It is always a good idea.
"May I request links to the most updated diesel engine technology and biodiesel sources? Thanks."
You'll have to search. I posted some links that were removed (policy violation). They were related to VW's TDI and biodiesel. In particular, the TDI Club had great info in the FAQ about current diesel engines.
Comments
CR 150 mile loop: VW Golf TDI 50mpg, Prius 48mpg
CR highway: VW Golf TDI 54, Prius 50mpg"
__Isn't CR the one that only achieved 26MPG in a HCH? 30 below EPA? If I'm wong I apologize.
Bet I could achieve a TDI down to 26 or worse too.
It would take considerable effort to average 26 in a HCH.
If one wants to have debate with Prius that's fine but must realize it is worlds different than Hondas system.
"Hybrid cars" are pretty general.
As far as HCH goes:
"It is easy to obtain or exceed the EPA estimate for a diesel, not so for a hybrid"
__I easily beat EPA by +15MPG trip after trip and +10 tank after tank.
sebring95:
__As the article you quoted says, how can keeping your blinker off save gas? I've read similar articles that say the Hybrids are dangerous because power lines are strung through the doors. (I suppose next to the gas lines in there :-)
Also,
"Which appears to be the exact case for the hybrids. Drive them with a light foot all the time and you might get the EPA numbers. Drive rediculously slow and you might exceed them
__I drive mine normally along with traffic.
The cars "sweet MPG" spot is 53-58MPG.
"14 miles of two-lane hilly backroads, I run 60-70mph generally. Slowest speed is 45mph for a couple switchbacks. Sometimes pass a couple people which a usually quick blasts from 50mph-80mph."
__And you would post a quote saying lack of blinkers are dangerous? My daily commute is 20 miles hilly N. Ga. back road w/speed limit of 45-55. Around here if you 70 on these roads you get stopped and wrecklessly at 80 even passing you go to jail.
I got your point, but these roads I travel on aveage 55-58MPH.
"There are TDI folks that regularly get closer to 60mpg."
__I get 60-61 at the end of almost EVRERY commute. I also pass slower drivers but admit it isn't full throttle going 80. Not that I couldn't but it would be too wasteful. Why drop 2MPG on my trip Avg for a slowpoke?
"I'll regularly run upto 80-90mph for a few stretches"
I used to drive like that too swerveing and passing. That idiot driving 75 in a 55 was just too slow and was just ASKING me to blast him away. My wife and 3 kids are relieved that I'm driving for mileage & close to speed limits now instead of enviting death.
Truly I don't mean this a a poke,
I hope the folks who drive 80-90 realize that there are whole families that can be erased by a half second mistake.
Thanks
Steve
If I only drove 20 miles per day, I'd likely not own a seperate vehicle for commuting anyway.
Oh, where's all this "blinkers" are dangerous quotes coming from? I don't recall reading/linking anything that has to do with what I refer to as turn signals.
City is rated at 60 mpg.
Independent testing yielded 35 mpg city for Prius.
quote- Data from independent product-testing organization Consumer Reports indicates that hybrid cars get less than 60 percent of EPA estimates while navigating city streets. In Consumer Reports' real-world driving test, the Civic Hybrid averaged 26 mpg in the city, while the Toyota Prius averaged 35 mpg, much less than their respective EPA estimates of 47 and 60 mpg. Hybrid cars performed much closer to EPA estimates in Consumer Reports' highway tests.-end
Less than 60% of EPA rating in city. Hmmmm... And you get 60 to 61 mpg?
What are your driving conditions Steve? Downhill both ways? You stated hilly with 45-55 mph speeds. This would be more similar to highway than city.
I work in R&D and have found that claims outside of typical expected performance are false, not consistently repeatable, or errors.
Since your mpg is consitently above expected performance parameters I'll let the audience come to their own conclusion.
__I could do that poorly in any diesel too. If this is a real unbiased driving test then I can be happy: I get ~ 40MPG better than CR's "Professional" drivers!
"Hmmmm... And you get 60 to 61 mpg?"
__Consistantly almost every trip.Sometimes better:
http://www.steve-dez.us/643.jpg
http://www.steve-dez.us/688.jpg
I have a few slightly better pics I haven't uploaded.
None of my tank averages are lower than 57MPG.
These figures are also calculated every other tank.
If your diesel isn't reaching these numbers then what can I say?
Admitted my city driving is limited and is not a major part of my daily commute. Still according to my FCD it is still around EPA.
"What are your driving conditions Steve? Downhill both ways? You stated hilly with 45-55 mph speeds."
__Thanks but you were curiuos:
My daily trip into Atlanta is 45 miles. How can one drive downhill both ways? My first 20 miles is country highway lots of "V" hills but generally uphill climb of several thousand feet over the 20m. Then is basically flat for 5 miles.
At that point I enter a 65MPH limit freeway (I85) 55-65MPH and ride that into Atlanta. Still BIG hills & valleys but basically downhill for about 18m.
I exit I85 at 5:20PM onto the worst city traffic of the day and drive another 3-4 miles to work.
I almost always arrive with 60 to +62MPG.
Reverse for my way home. Both ways I am weighted by a gradual incline in the first part broken up with big valley hills.
These hills reduce MPG not add to it.
"I work in R&D and have found that claims outside of typical expected performance are false, not consistently repeatable, or errors.
Since your mpg is consitently above expected performance parameters I'll let the audience come to their own conclusion."
So what you are saying is that the numerous folks who "Claim to" significantly beat EPA such as xcel (who is strongly in favor of diesel),
Rick Reese and many others are not repeatable, errors, false or otherwise misleading Edmunds readers because you work in R&D?
sebring95:
From your post #406:
(Had to turn off)"all electronics including turning signal(compromise and dangerous)."
Thanks
Steve
From your post #406:
(Had to turn off)"all electronics including turning signal(compromise and dangerous)."
Nothing in my #406 about that. You're referring to an article that was linked to somewhere here, as I recall reading that line. I never said anything about that being dangerous. Not like anyone uses their turn signals anyway;o
NAV
Curtain Air bags
Smart entry (I'm so used to it now!!)
Traction control (not sure if the diesels have it)
Bluetooth
Xenons
Can anyone thing of a diesel vehicle that has those features that I can buy for less than 30k??
I am sure misterme gets the fuel economy he describes. He doesn't speed, race to 60 or brake for no reason. I bet he will get good mileage in an ycar he drives, but not the 60 he gets in his prius.
Reliability is a question, of course. A friend of mine is off toyotas permanently now, i think, after his first-year passat experience. VW's rep is they the cars need TLC but will last forever with it. Sort of the reverse of toyota.
BUT if reliability is tantamount, i think those sort of things (bluetooth, nav, smart entry) are what you want to avoid, toyota or not!
dave
Also with Cruise control turned on and set to speed limits I get near the EPA.
...And I don't own a Prius.
My Grand Caravan's FCD says 24 but the most I can actually muster is about 19.
Will my next car to replace the GC be a regular ICE version?
No, I won't settle for 19MPG anymore from anything.
If I were looking to replace the GC today I'd probably go diesel.
Thanks
Steve
I too am not willing to accept poor mileage anymore, expecially looking at what else is going on in the world, as much as i can rationalize a new sports car.
dave
Yes we already compared with lower emission gas engine cars. usbseawolf2000 May 4, 2004 5:54pm
Discussion about recycling battery and the whole hybrid car was also discussed in the messages after that.
Dennis
torque will be divided by two
rpm will be multiplied by two.
Do you debate any of these facts? If so, which one? Please do not go into some bizarre cognition about cvt's and "HSD.""
Sure, I will Keep It Simple, Stupid(KISS). Total power output at the wheel = engine torque x drive shaft RPM. Engine torque stays the same while the wheel RPM double, therefore, doubling the total horsepower. You need to think harder. You can thank me after you finally get it. =D
Dennis
That is a 14.5 g fuel tank or 83 mpg. If the fuel cut off switch was deactivated, then app 15.5 g or 77 mpg.
___It is one thing to debate; it is another to call someone names. Usbseawolf2000 may not have the same ideas and perspective but I respect his opinion irregardless. Simply remove the BS title is all!
People have driven Golf TDIs 1200 miles on a tank of gas by going 45 to 50 mph. A hybrid cant do that.
___As for driving 1,200 miles in a Hybrid on a single tank, 2 tanks ago I drove 1,228 miles and I should easily hit 1,300 on my current tank. This is back and forth through Chicago’s finest day after day after day. And I will have done so for < $25.00!
___You can find the above over at Greenhyrid.com. Afterwards, I encourage you too include your own tank over tank mileage in Greenhybrid’s Real Mileage Database.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
"Diesel engines produce less CARBON DIOXIDE than gas engines."
Gas engines produce much less NOx than diesel engines. Low sulfter diesel engines produce less CO2 than gas engines. LSD won't be here until 2006 or even longer, who knows what is going to happen? HSD hybrids produce less CO2 and NOx than gas or diesel engines. I didn't want to bring the emission issue up before because, well, it can get dirty. ;D
"Prius and Insights are for people making political statments. Diesels are real cars, not some coffin like, environmental diaster. The precious metals used in the batteries are toxic to the evironment."
If your argument is based on your visual opinion, I think most European diesel cars look funny because they are small and weird looking. Nickel is not categorized as a toxic metal! Nickel can be found in many coins around the world including in US currency Nickel. You probably have contact with Nickel everyday! Just my 5 cents. ;D In a large amount, Nickel becomes semi-toxic. Too much of anything is not good anyway.
The only thing that is going for diesel is more energy contained in the fuel.
Dennis
Thanks
Steve
ULSD <50ppm is available right now in California and in various parts of the midwest. Arco and Koch refineries both produce diesel fuel with <50ppm sulfur. BP sells it to the city of Chicago bus fleet but not regular gas stations. With that fuel and the particulate filter, the new diesel engines can pass the Tier II emission standards.
In the guiness book of world records. A regular TDI was driven about 1200 miles on a single tank og diesel. The poor guy drove it at around 45 mph with minimal changes in speed in Australia. I really dont believe you drove a hydrid in Chicago for 1200 miles.
You may be correct about ULSD being available now in CA, but the "CARB" regulations that 5 states agree to (including NY) doesn't make ULSD a requirement until June 2006. And the new requirement is 15ppm sulphur. That means that I cannot buy a new diesel in any of those 5 states until then. optional vs. requirement.
This works for me. Jeep has a limited run of their diesel Liberty for 2005. Hopefully it's a runaway success and I can buy one in 2006!
Wrong, unless you meant engine rpm (instead of wheel rpm).
Consider a vehicle with only two gear ratios.
Gear 1 (2:1)
Gear 2 (1:1)
The engine in the vehicle makes 100 lb.-ft from 1000 rpm to 6000 rpm (a perfectly flat torque curve).
Let us assume that the vehicle attains 20 mph at 2000 rpm in second gear (20 mph corresponds to the wheel speed/rpm, while 2000 rpm corresponds to engine rpm).
While at 20 mph in gear 2, you shift to gear 1. The gear ratio doubles. Does that mean the wheel rpm (measured in mph in this case) would double? NO.
In gear 1, the engine rpm will be 4000 rpm while the wheel speed is still 20 mph (so the wheel “rpm” stays the same, does not double).
Horsepower at the wheel will be double, however (because the torque at the wheel is multiplied by two times by the gearing). Assuming no drive train loss, horsepower at wheel would be equal to the horsepower at crank at 4000 rpm (76 HP in this case).
The car will be pulling twice as strong at 20 mph in gear 1 than it would at 20 mph in gear 2 (although the torque output is same, at 2000 rpm or at 4000 rpm).
"If you are so green with joy about the hybrids and emissions, go find a used GM electric car and drive that."
Electric cars have limited speed, performance, safety, and range. You are asking to sacrifice to be green. Emission produced during electricity generation is another question. Hybrid Synergy Drive enables us to achieve very low emission without sacrificing performance, safety, nor range. In fact, it even improves performance and range. Safety is probably improved due to VSC and computer controlled sensors throughout the whole car.
"I hear their hybrid technology doesn't work well and that is why they delayed the introduction. GM and Ford will do to Hybrids what GM did to diesels."
You were referring to 80mpg Supercar project during Clinton administration, you are right. Those diesel electric hybrids achieves high mpg with trade-offs. They used all aluminum to save weight and aerodynamics were taken to the extreme. You can find out more information about Ford Prodigy and GM Precept. HSD is the real thing, even Ford is using it in the upcoming 2005 Escape hybrid. Demands for it are going wild, just to show from the result.
The bottom line, HSD hybrid cars will have lower emission than the cleanest diesel. HSD will also have an edge over diesel. HSD will dominate in performance versus diesel. It will become more clear when Lexus 400h, Camry hybrid and others come out. Diesel never caught up in US and I don't see how it will soon. Gas electric made a huge leap further than diesel with low sulfer fuel and modern diesel engine.
Dennis
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
When the engine is revving at 4000 rpm, the horsepower at crank would be 76 HP. Assuming no drivetrain loss, power at wheels would be 76 HP.
The wheel speed is same in both cases (at 2000 rpm and at 4000 rpm), thanks to different gear ratios (gear 1 being twice as short as gear 2).
In the guiness book of world records. A regular TDI was driven about 1200 miles on a single tank og diesel. The poor guy drove it at around 45 mph with minimal changes in speed in Australia. I really dont believe you drove a hydrid in Chicago for 1200 miles.
___Yes I live in Chicago and yes, I drive through the Chicago Interstate and Tollway system from the Wisconsin border on I94 to South of Joliet on I55 I have 9 - 96 mile segments at > 100 mpg in the last 2 weeks alone. You can believe what you want but maybe the following pic will help you understand what a 5-speed Insight is capable of? This particular segment of mine was a personal best as well as wind aided with an ~ 15 - 20 mph tail wind for ~ 2/3 of that particular commute I drove this same commute in a heavy rain today and achieved a middling 86.x on the way to work this morning and 90.4 mpg on the way back this afternoon. It dropped my current tanks average to 98.7 mpg from the 100.5 mpg I was at before I left I am at 772.2 miles and still have 12 of 20 bars left on the fuel tank. 1,200 miles is a slam dunk on this tank with 1,300 still a possibility if I get warmer and clear weather early next week.
___Usbseawolf2000, you are still missing the other side of the equation in regards to HSD or any Hybrid system available today. They are slower then there conventional counterparts (04 Prius vs. 03/04 Corolla w/ Auto/Stick – Camry w/ Auto) and they carry a $3,000 - $5,000 price premium. This premium cannot be made up on fuel cost savings whereas a Common rail diesel can achieve ULEV type emissions (the Accord iCDTi does this in Europe on LSD today) but with a cost premium of < $1,000. Performance is clearly in the Diesel camp (Accord Diesel: 0 - 60 in 9.0 seconds) as well as costs. Emissions Well considering every Toyota Echo on the road today is a LEV and the Toyota Sequoia and Land Cruiser are 2 of the absolute worst polluting SUV’s on the planet, why not instead power all Toyota’s w/ LEV/ULEV based Diesels and clean up the US’ air instead?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
If the engine is at 4000rpm and in gear 2, the speed would double.
Dennis
Yes, i think we're all agreeing.
dave
dave
And it reduces the max speed a car can travel. If a car moves slower, less work is done. Therefore, less horsepower and less fuel is required to get up to that speed.
In the case where transmission divide engine's torque, the car can achieve faster mph and more work can be done. Therefore, more horsepower and more fuel is required to get up to that speed.
Dennis
You can pick on Prius' lower performance or price premium but not both. It is a trap that I could easily fall into, since I can be biased also ;D. Prius has lower performance than Camry in some tests such as 0-60 mph but Prius performs better on 30-50mph and probably braking and other tests. Prius has smart entry and other features that are not available in camry for the same price. Overall, Prius come out very competitive with Camry or Corolla in value.
"Well considering every Toyota Echo on the road today is a LEV and the Toyota Sequoia and Land Cruiser are 2 of the absolute worst polluting SUV’s on the planet, why not instead power all Toyota’s w/ LEV/ULEV based Diesels and clean up the US’ air instead?"
Because, currently HSD is lower in emission than diesel and more fuel efficient. Our fuel infrustructers are mainly gasoline and change takes money. Toyota believes that the cost of HSD hybrids can come down so much that they are betting their money on it and aim to gain total global market of 15% by 2010.
Dennis
You can pick on Prius' lower performance or price premium but not both. It is a trap that I could easily fall into, since I can be biased also ;D
___Yes, I can pick both. Especially when considering a Corolla LE as the cost/mile is less, its initial cost is far lower albeit with a loss of amenities, and it has higher performance. In the case of the Camry, I haven’t priced one out in about 3 months given the comparison wars have died down somewhat but when I was looking at the 03’s last year, it was a XLE w/ Leather, Powered Sun roof, 16” Alloys, and loaded using the 4 banger. I believe it was ~ $22,000 out the door and had far more creature comforts including a better suspension and brake HW design all around as well as lower interior dB’s at speed
Because, currently HSD is lower in emission than diesel and more fuel efficient.
___You seem to have missed the Accord diesel again. It has emissions all over the map from SULEV to TLEV depending on what is being looked at (beats Euro IV already) but also arrives with a 0 - 60 time of just 9 seconds in a heavier automobile and its fuel economy is only a few mpg less in real world driving. Drop off 2 seconds to 60 w/ a 1.7 L and the fuel economy of the Accord Diesel would be better then that of the already anemic Prius, I am quite sure.
___Afterwards, do you want to speak of possible long term reliability of the Accord 2.2 L iCDTi Diesel vs. the Prius’ 1.5 L ICE, HSD, Pack, Inverters, MG Sets, and Controllers?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I have to step in here and correct you. The electric motor is NOT driven by the gas engine, it is driven by the batteries. When I test drove the first one in San Diego I drove several miles without the gas motor starting. The gas engine is only used to charge the batteries and give extra boost when needed like at 70 MPH. I am curious what are we going to do with all the highly toxic batteries that will be going bad here in a few years?
(Satire)
I may be wrong but I think I read somewhere that Nimh batteries are not classified as a toxic substance. These are not lead-acid.
Electric is mostly gas powered. Brake regen counts for less than 20% of a recarge, coasting charge for maybe 10% and the rest is managed by the engine.
Electric motor uses the battery- engine recharges ~ 70%
Thanks
Steve
MSNBC; Miguel Llanos, writes:
Frustrated, I sought answers from Toyota and its Prius guru, Dave Hermance. As soon as I said that my commute and other city driving were short trips, Hermance interrupted. “That’s it right there, that’s the problem,” he said, explaining that mileage suffers during the first five minutes of a cold start because of the way the Prius and similar low-polluting cars curb emissions.
That would also explain that while my combined city/highway mileage was 42 mpg, I got just 31 mpg on my five-mile commute to work.
It sounds to me like a person that travels 30 miles each way to work could gain some benefit from a hybrid, while the housewife taking the kids to school and trips to the store would get relatively poor mileage (31 mpg).
Where do you think the batteries got powered by? To clearify, Prius has two motors/generators. One can generate electricity and power the electric motor directly, without going through the battery. This saves battery charge/discharge cycle and prolong the battery life. All the electricity in Prius is directly or indirectly from the gas engine since, you can not plug it in to recharge.
"The gas engine is only used to charge the batteries and give extra boost when needed like at 70 MPH."
Not true. Gas engine kicks in when you go faster than about 42 MPH or demand more than 10KW of electricity from the battery.
Dennis
Dennis
Emission wise, gas electric is going to be lower than the cleanest diesel. I agree that diesel performs the best in 0-60mph test due to huge torque of diesel nature. I am expecting Camry hybrid to have 0-60mph in less than 8 secs since the heavier 400h will achieve that. Diesel will not be able to match passing power to HSD gas electric since most diesel cars have low hp/weight ratio. Fuel economy of Camry hybrid should be around 45mpg combined. Real world mpg will vary on the driving style and should beat diesel's fuel efficiency. My knowledge of emission and fuel efficiency are based on Toyota of Europe research and have not seen any conflicting data yet.
"do you want to speak of possible long term reliability of the Accord 2.2 L iCDTi Diesel vs. the Prius’ 1.5 L ICE, HSD, Pack, Inverters, MG Sets, and Controllers?"
HSD Prius has been out for public since 1997 and had proven to be very reliable. How about iCDTi diesel powertrain? I believe diesel engines need carbon built-up cleaning every 100k miles which requires rebuilt of the whole engine.
Dennis
That hasn't been true for diesel or gas for a long time. Big diesel semis have "major service" around 800,000 miles. And why would carbon build up require a full rebuild?
In some (not all) areas diesel has a longevity advantage, because diesel fuel itself is a lubricant on the cylinder walls. On the other hand, injector and fuel pump may neen to be replaced more often. The gas engine has more moving parts. I think longevity comes down to maufacturing quality more than anything else.
Makes me think of that old grand prix we had though. That simple, big pushrod needed a rebuild at 80K.
dave
Displacement: 2.2 liter(Honda.co.uk)
Engine power: 138 hp(Honda.co.uk)
Weight: 3,025 lbs(Honda.co.uk)
0-60mph: 9.3(Honda.co.uk)
50-75mph: 11.2(Auto-Report.net)
Fuel Economy: 43.3 mpg(Honda.co.uk)
Emission: Diesel Euro IV
Toyota Prius
Displacement: 1.5 liter(Toyota.com)
Engine power: 76 hp(Toyota.com)
Weight: 2,890 lbs(Toyota.com)
0-60mph: 11.3(C&D), 9.7(MotorTrend)
50-70mph(Not 50-75): 7.9(C&D)
Fuel Economy: 55 mpg(EPA), 45 mpg(John's Winter), 50+ mpg(John's Spring)
Emission: J-ULEV, AT-PZEV, and Petrol Euro IV(96% NOx lower than Diesel Euro IV requirement, hydrocarbon and nitrous oxide emissions are respectively 80% and 87.5% lower than required by EURO IV regulations for petrol engines)
HSD Prius passing power and lower emission are superior!
Dennis
Apples to apples!
Doesn't the Accord have a manual tranny version that gets better mileage, and faster acceleration.
Didn't the Honda set 19 world speed records for its class, and still achieve 77 mpg (92 imperial) during an economy run?
Isn't diesel 100% renewable - requiring no imports?
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=234399
Record MPG: 76.6
Toyota Prius
Record MPG: 85.7
Thanks dudleyr for some input. Accord diesel is only offered in manual transmission. Yes, automatic would make it much slower and less mpg. Eventhough bio-diesel is 100% renewable, it needs to be blended with (80%?)unrenewable diesel to be practically usable.
Dennis
Nope. False statement.
Fact- Biodiesel can be used as a pure fuel or blended with petroleum in any percentage.
What is the reason for the continued campaign of false info. on diesel? Ignorance or a dislike of diesel?
False. Since this is a non-issue it does not merit debate. Diesel engine longevity is greater than gasoline engine.
From what I read, viscosity of biodiesel prevent it from using during cold weather. Therefore, blending is necessary. It isn't true?
"What is the reason for the continued campaign of false info. on diesel?"
Not campaigning against diesel, just trying to learn where HSD stand in respect to other available technologies.
Diesel fuel also has longer carbon chain. If carbon is going to built up, diesel will most likely be affected by it. May I request links to the most updated diesel engine technology and biodiesel sources? Thanks.
Dennis
That probably explains the passing times--such times are often given as "top gear" passing times. This has been discussed here before, hasn't it?
"Eventhough bio-diesel is 100% renewable, it needs to be blended with (80%?)unrenewable diesel to be practically usable."
No--that's not true at all. I think you're thinking of the fact that in some areas a 20% blend is offered to reduce emissions. Even 5% biodiesel in the blend reduces emissions. Plus it can make yuor exhaust smell like french fries, yum yum.
dave
The trick is to mix in 10% or so ethanol, much as is done with gasoline, for different reasons. Complete renewability, baby!
dave
I think you are right. I am seeing BMW 320d acceleration 50-75mph in 4th: 7.5 sec.
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/320d.htm
Dennis
The trick is to mix in 10% or so ethanol, much as is done with gasoline, for different reasons. Complete renewability, baby!
I agree. In my experimenting with biodiesel this winter, I left what I have to assume was properly blended biodiesel and standard #2 winterized truck-stop diesel in mason jars outside. In -10F ambient temps, they both were equally fluid. Also for fun left some summer diesel in another mason jar, it was thicker (say 5W-30ish on a warm day) and had ice crystals.
I've run B100 in my TDI and it's a great fuel system cleaner:) Power and economy are equal. Only downside for me is the local B100 distributor (which is actually 30 miles away) is a bit to proud of his product and prices it out of this world. The next B100 supplier is about 80 miles away (and where I obtained my test fuel and any fuel I've run in my car) is fairly competitive on pricing. It's still much higher than standard #2 diesel I can buy here, currently $1.67. About $.35/gallon cheaper than 87 octane.
This is a no-brainer. Since gear 2 is taller (by 2x) compared to gear 1, you’re going to see 2x the speed at the same engine speed.
Power is a relationship between “rate” AND “work done”. In simplified terms, work done is directly related to “thrust”. So, we could say that power establishes a relationship between “rate” and “thrust”.
Assume that car A is delivering 200 HP and car B is delivering 200 HP. This does not guarantee that they are going at the same speed (“rate”) or producing the same thrust at the wheels. If they are going at the same speed, then regardless of the torque their engine produces, they have exactly the same thrust at the wheels. This is the bottom line when it comes to understanding power.
Regarding the accelerative performance numbers you quoted for Accord Diesel (and compared) to Prius, you have to realize that the Accord is equipped with 5-speed manual transmission, and Prius is using an “automatic”.
In a typical acceleration test with automatic transmission, they leave the gearbox in the tallest gear, but being “automatic”, the transmission switches to a lower gear (second or third) and produces quicker results. With manual transmission (esp. C&D and like), they leave the gearbox in the tallest gear and it stays there for the run, producing slower times. This is the reason you would see a Dodge Viper w/6-speed run 30-50 mph in about 10 seconds while family sedans with automatics can do it in 4 seconds or less.
Back to Accord Diesel, here are two numbers that tell the same story (numbers from Autocar UK).
30 to 50 mph (Gear 4): 7.2s
30 to 50 mph (Gear 3): 4.0s
Just one flick drops the time to nearly half! This is a good reason why you should not compare numbers directly between manual transmission equipped cars and those with automatic.
"May I request links to the most updated diesel engine technology and biodiesel sources? Thanks."
You'll have to search. I posted some links that were removed (policy violation). They were related to VW's TDI and biodiesel. In particular, the TDI Club had great info in the FAQ about current diesel engines.