Hybrid vs Diesel

sebring95

I too have witnessed VW TDI's getting into the 60mpg range. Drive at slower speeds (50-55mph), conservative accelerations, reduce ancilliary device useage, 40psi tires, etc. etc. But with the TDI I can drive briskly/aggresively and still average 45-50mpg. I'll compromise the mpg a bit and spend an extra half hour a day at home.

john1701a

> It seems that hybrid owners are over sensitive about the vehicle they drive.

Let's see. There are about a half-dozen anti-hybrid articles published nationwide daily. They use data from an unrealistic source to make their point appear to apply to all owners. And you expect hybrid owners to just sit back and allow that to continue?

> The only reason I would buy a small car like the hybrid Honda or Prius is for the short trips to the store and movies.

Misrepresenting Prius by calling it small, despite being a midsize, is not appropriate. Look at the seating room, not the exterior. Then ask yourself why you wouldn't use that for "long trips", like a daily commute.

> Now you tell us that they are not very efficient unless you drive them over a certain distance.

This is where VAGUE comes from.

I say just a few minutes. The following post claims that 20 minutes is short. Now your reference blurs over both of those comments.

SHORT = 5 MINUTES

JOHN

usbseawolf2000

"The Atkinson cycle is 100 years old, .... Same as the Mazda Millenium S my wife bought in '95."

Atkinson cycle is as almost old as Otto cycle, so are hybrids. I believe, the first hybrid is not a car but rather a train. What makes HSD unique is the way it combines and integrates many overlapping components and simplifies mechanically. It is not just the engine, it is the way how everything is put together. Have you seen the troque graph of Prius Atkinson cycle? It is almost perfectly flat.

"Four stroke engines of this type with forced induction (supercharging) are known as Miller cycle engines."

Do you know the reason why Atkinson cycle engine were not used all this time? It's because of weak low-end torque of the engine. Mazda tried it with a forced induction(to make up for low-end torque) but failed due to the extra cost that were added with minimal benefit. Forced induction supercharge comes with it's own inefficiency as well. This made overall more complex, expensive and little benefit/efficiency.

Enter the HSD, where strong low-end torque electric motor is used as a supercharger. Atkinson cycle finally found the perfect application because high torque electric motor is a given half of the hybrid powertrain equation. There are no compromises, just synergy.

Dennis

daysailer

No matter how many "anti-hybrid" articles may be published, unless one takes it personally and is overly sensitive, why would you care? How would you even know? And what constitutes an "anti-hybrid" point of view? Your posting history would suggest that it is anyone who is not enamored of the Prius, such as myself, even though I consider hybrids to be the most promising technology to improve ICE efficiency, and have repeatedly said so.

usbseawolf2000

"Now you tell us that they are not very efficient unless you drive them over a certain distance."

You know darn well that Prius was designed to reduce emission even with the expense of lower fuel economy during cold start. Traditional cars also suffer from low mpg with short trips AND pollutes more during cold start.

Dennis

pusterracing

"Then ask yourself why you wouldn't use that for "long trips", like a daily commute."

This has nothing to do with drive train for me. One of the main reasons I bought the 04 Jetta TDI was because the Corolla I was trading in was extremely uncomfortable on "long trips", after more than about 45 minutes in the car my lower back would ache and my right leg would either ache or start to get a little numb. The Prius (withs its wait list and dealer premium) utilized the same seats as the Corolla. The Jetta was just plain more comfortable. I bought the Jetta on 7 April..today is 9 June...2 months and 2 days, I have 5300 miles on my Jetta, so I spend quite a bit of time in the car. I average 42mpg in 100% city, 49mpg 100% hwy and usually around 44mpg in mixed driving 65% city/35% hwy.

And, my Greenhouse Gasses are below the "average" car (using Camry as the V6 average and Corolla as the 4cyl average). The Camry Weighs in a 8.0tons anually, the Corolla @ 5.4 tons, The Jetta TDI @ 5.1 tons and the Prius @ 3.5 tons. So the Jetta TDI is comparable, if not better, to other cars in its class.

I might be causing lots of pollution, but people are not going to burn up because of the hole in hte Ozone that I am causing.

Anyway, just my $0.02, I enjoy the TDI, and green vehicles aren't my highest priority (heck my third vehicle is a 00 Expedition 4WD, can't acomplish the things I need the truck for with a hybrid). I respect the Hybrids, their technology, and the ideaology behind them, they just aren't for me.....yet....as diesels aren't for some people.

A car that is fun to drive (to me, my definition of fun) and still achieved greater gas mileage (ie kills less dinosaurs) and was comfortable while doing it was what I was after. The TDI accomplished all of that for me.

djasonw

The Passat was too big and the mileage was good for a car that size. The Jetta does not have a wagon (at least according to the dealer). The Golf is nice but I once owned a Cabrio and the seats were horrible. The Golf is a very well made car, but the styling is SO boring. However, absent the Prius, I would give it my biggest consideration.

john1701a

> Your posting history would suggest

Suggest yes, but far from the truth. In fact, not even remotely correct. Try reading the other forums, not just this one.

I've stated quite a few times that I specifically selected the "up to the chore" thread as my place to debate, intentionally identifying it as a place where I play offense instead of defense.

But since that thread disappeared last week, I am now seeking a new place for that on this forum.

JOHN

pusterracing

Find another dealer...TDI Jetta wagons are in abundance...

http://www.vw.com/jettawagon/index.htm

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/volkswagen/jetta/100351186/resear- chlanding.html?tid=edmunds.n.prices.subnavheader..2.Volkswagen*

djasonw

Thanks for the link. I'm building one now! A great alternative to the Golf which is a little too small and the Passat which is too big.

davidnj1

VW has the the DSC auto-manual on the diesel Beetle and will add it the Golf when the new model arrives in a few months.

moparbad

DSG is on the NB, but the new model Golf is not scheduled to arrive until calendar year 2006.

sebring95

The Golf is nice but I once owned a Cabrio and the seats were horrible. The Golf is a very well made car, but the styling is SO boring. However, absent the Prius, I would give it my biggest consideration.

I would imagine the seats have changed a bit since your old Cabrio;)

FWIW, the Jetta and Golf typically have the same seats. Fabric may be different based on the package, but generally the seats are identical. I find my Jetta seats to be extremely comfortable and being tall I still fit very well even compared to larger cars. The front seat space is very good, back seat.....well that's not for humans IMHO. Luckily I wasnn't looking for a family car with my Jetta anyway.

nvbanker

These are still a question for me. The Diesel, tried & true, efficiency proven, and relatively cleaned up now, poses a much better prospect for long range use to my mind than a "2 engines in one" hybrid. I'm concerned that a 10 year old Prius may be about as popular as an Oldsmobile Diesel is today.

I understand in other applications, there is a track record for hybrid type technology, but for cars, this is awfully new. And frankly, the improvement in mileage is pretty negligable IMO for the sacrifice of power, size & comfort.

I haven't driven one yet, but intend to soon. My Dentist bought one. He offered.

Even if I like how it drives, I'm likely to still wait a few years and see how they work out. Gotta be more complex. I'd rather pursue Diesel technology further.

djasonw

I was a bit leary too, but decided that its worth the risk. I have over 11,000 trouble free miles on an '04 Prius and can sell my car TODAY for what I paid for it (demand is THAT high). I still love the car and I believe that it will be less expensive to maintain than a VW TDI through 100,000 miles. All the reports I read on the previous generation Prius are excellent. I am sure you've all read about the man that used the classic Prius as a taxi cab in British Columbia and put on 186,000 trouble free miles.

The problem with the TDI is that you CAN'T buy them in California or New York and a few other green states. That's a BIG chunk of the population. I live in New York and even though I can get one and register it out in PA (my other home), I'd still rather stick with my Prius. I am very confident that the technology is proven and I look forward to many trouble free years of driving.

moparbad

The states that do not allow diesel are the most polluted states, they sure are not green. VW TDI, Mercedes CDI, Liberty CDI are not responsible for the pollution in the CARB (Green;) states either.

Remember that CA is responsible for CARB and CA is the same state that wanted MTBE i/o ethanol and can not manage it's energy supply.

john1701a

Try looking at the actual problem... it is "NOx" emissions, more commonly known as smog.

Diesel is the highest contributer to that type of air pollution, and by quite a wide margin. So it doesn't make any sense to allow them to do that unrestricted.

If automakers can deliver a diesel vehicle (and/or fuel combination) that can at least meet the "SULEV" minimum, then the use of it is perfectly fine. After all, they have been promising to do exactly that.

JOHN

moparbad

The cleanest diesel vehicles available in the US are the VW TDI and the Mercedes CDI. They are restricted in the CARB states and the dirtiest diesels (Semis, Locomotives, Off-road equipment) are unrestricted, does that make sense? To CARB it does.
N0x can be reduced/eliminated if sulfur content of diesel is reduced to 50 ppm. EPA allows up to 5000 ppm sulfur in diesel fuel used in non-highway equipment and 500 ppm in regular onroad fuel. Is this an agency concerned with pollution?

The need to reduce energy consumption must be balanced with the need to reduce emissions. If diesel vehicles are required to meet SULEV standards then SULEV vehicles must be required to meet mpg standards equal to those attained by diesel vehicles.

CARB allows a Hummer H1 to be sold that obtains less than 10 mpg and restricts the sale of 48 mpg TDI. Does that make sense?

Right now the hybrid's on the market are offering low emissions and high mpg. More technology options are needed.
Diesel engines from Toyota, VW, and DC have already been certified by EPA to meet future 2007 emissions regulations. Of course, they did this with the low sulfur fuel that will be mandated in 2006.
Diesel engines are not going to go away, neither are hybrids. It is good to see that you accept diesel as long as they meet emissions.

moparbad

Fuel cost for hybrid vs diesel in CARB vs non-CARB states.

CA fuel prices in Barstow $2.21 unleaded, $1.95 diesel

IN fuel prices $1.75 unleaded, $1.57 diesel

The fuel price for the IN unleaded is for "boutique" fuel in the Chicago region that is mandated by EPA.

With the price advantage of diesel in CA or IN I'm glad I'm driving a 50 mpg TDI. And if I was not, I sure would hope I could drive a 50 mpg hybrid.

daysailer

any technology that meets MY requirements for driving characteristics, reliability, economy, convenience, etc. To date, no diesel that I've encountered does so, but nor do the 3 hybrids offerred thus far.

Hybrid technology, however, does suggest the POTENTIAL (no pun intended) to meet my needs, if the cost premium can be overcome. I don't see that in a diesel.

john1701a

> does that make sense?

Your "chicken or the egg" argument falls on deaf ears.

Those other vehicles are facing upcoming increased emission restrictions too.

In other words, it is just a matter of which will be enforced first.

> If diesel vehicles are required to meet SULEV standards then SULEV vehicles must be required to meet mpg standards equal to those attained by diesel vehicles.

That has absolutely, positively NOTHING to do with lowering NOx emissions.

And since Prius delivers better real-world MPG than an equal-size diesel with a transmission that doesn't require shifting, it's a non-issue anyway.

JOHN

djasonw

I happen to come from NY which adopted Cailfornia's strict pollution standards. I'd rather live in NY than Texas (Houston ranks as the highest pollution from what I've read). Vermont, Maine and one other state also adopted those California standards. Last time I checked, the air in Vermont and Maine were pretty clear. I do agree that the law does need to be changed. How can you sell a Hummer in NYS but NOT a TDI. Absolute stupidity!!! Looking forward to 2006.

moparbad

Well John, I'll emit as much NOx from my TDI as I please as TDI meets federal emissions requirements now, and diesel engines are already certified to meet 2007 emissions requirements.
Since TDI is a 5 speed manual your consistent, non-constructive comparisions to an auto TDI are irrelevant.

Since diesel fuel is $0.20-0.50 less per gallon than unleaded I'm laughing all the way to the bank. And I'm very comfortable on the way to the bank in the leather heated seats. The fact that the handling of any VW is better than any hybrid currently available is just icing on the cake.

john1701a

> your consistent, non-constructive comparisions to an auto TDI are irrelevant

90 PERCENT of the population doesn't agree with you, since they purchase vehicles that don't require shifting.

JOHN

usbseawolf2000

"diesel engines are already certified to meet 2007 emissions requirements."

Which engines meet which 2007 emission requirements? In US, Europe or Japan? Does it require special(LSD) fuel? Is that for passenger cars or trucks? More detail please.

Dennis

moparbad

quote- 90 PERCENT of the population doesn't agree with you, since they purchase vehicles that don't require shifting. JOHN-end

That is great reasoning ability, let's take it further.

>90 PERCENT of the population does not want a Hybrid , since they purchase non-hybrid vehicles.

If being part of the "90 PERCENT" is what is important, then you should sell your hybrid and buy a SUV or Minivan.
 

The majority of diesel cars are sold with manual transmissions. It does require more skill and coordination to drive a manual transmission, you actually have to DRIVE.

Hybrids seem to be marketed to a different type of person. One that not only does not have the ability to shift gears, they require a navigation system to know where they are.

moparbad

US emissions requirements.

EPA has stated that VW, Diamler and Toyota have submitted engines to EPA for testing that meet the stringent 2007 emissions regulations.

It is unknown exactly which engines were tested. It is rumored that the Toyota diesel is a version of the one offered in the Euro Avensis.

In 2006 the "special" ULSD will be mandated as the only fuel. Also, in 2006 VW TDI, Mercedes CDI and Liberty CDI will all be 50 states vehicles as they will meet emissions requirements.

john1701a

> 90 PERCENT of the population does not want a Hybrid, since they purchase non-hybrid vehicles

How can they make the decision to purchase hybrid or non-hybrid if the hybrid isn't available in the first place? Until hybrid SUVs, hybrid Pickups, and hybrid Minivans are available, you can't declare them a flop.

JOHN

usbseawolf2000

"It is rumored that the Toyota diesel is a version of the one offered in the Euro Avensis."

Even Toyota Avensis diesel emission is only comparable to US Tier 2 standards. Even in the same standard, diesel NOx and PM emission is higher than equivalent gasoline emission. Hybrids lowers all CO2, NOx, and PM emission.

"In 2006 the "special" ULSD will be mandated as the only fuel."

Really? Even in Europe, only England and Germany currently offer ULSD fuel as other parts of Europe only offer LSD fuel.

Diesel will need change for car technology(engine and emission filters) as well as fuel and infrastructure where gas electric hybrid requires no modification. It seems to me that diesel has more obstacles and probably will take more money to be competitive with gas electric.

In regard to manual transmission, there are already too many things going on in the car especially if you live in a city like New York. Like most Americans, I'd rather be focusing on the road than worry about the most appropriate gear ratio to drive.

Dennis

daysailer

over the appropriate ratio to use then you apparently have not developed the requisite skills to competently operate a manual transmission vehicle. Driving a MT vehicle should be little different from "worrying" over which foot to place in front of another as you walk.

djasonw

I am SO over leather it's not funny. Had it on my Mercedes, Audi, Lexus and I acutally LOVE the material they use in the Prius. On 90 plus days you don't SCREAM Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh when you get in the car and on 10 degree days you don't freeze your butt off. Those heaters DO take some time to get toasty.

P.S. I do LOVE that leather smell so I bought a leather coat on sale at Wilsons and threw it in the back of my Prius. Really does make the car smell nice.

sebring95

You can always go with the cloth heated seats in the VW if you don't like leather. Seem to heat quite quickly. Wonder why nobody else offers heated cloth seats?? Selling point on the VW because I also am not a huge fan of leather but love heated seats. Usually go with the leather just to get them. In a past Mercedes and my '03 Ram diesel, the seat heaters are rather slow, not had that issue with other makes....

I suppose when the hybrids are offered in something beyond a very basic car they'll at least offer heated seats. I would assume the SUV toyota is offering soon will have more creature comforts but that's not something I want either.

pusterracing

"How can they make the decision to purchase hybrid or non-hybrid if the hybrid isn't available in the first place? "

Disco! John. The reason "90%" of the population buys automatics is because that is what is on the lots without special ordering. I had to go to four dealers to find a 5 speed on the lot, so your reasoning applies to manual transmissions just the same. I don't think that the automotive manufacturers put Auto trannys in their product because that is what the people want, they put them in there to drive the product cost and profit up.

Look at Mercedes Benz, I'm hard pressed to find ANY of their cars with manual transmission, even the AMGs...and "Auto Stick" or shiftable auto doesn't count. So you tell me, do people buy Auto Mercedes because they don't want manual transmission, or because manual transmission is not available.

Besides my TDI, I own an 00 Expedition, 4.6L AUTO..why...no manual transmission option, I also have an 02 Galant ESV6...AUTO....why, yup, you guessed it, no manual transmission option.

So please don't say that "90%" of the population prefers to drive auto when that is unfounded and inaccurate. Had Ford or Mitsubishi even offered a manual transmission on my other two cars, I would have purchased manual, but was forced into an Auto by the manufacturers lack of option availability.

ratbert1

Wonder why nobody else offers heated cloth seats??

- My Outback has heated cloth seats. I'm sure there are others.

And I agree that CARB is a bit rediculous, although the requirement for ULSD is needed for sure. As I understand it, ULSD does not require any changes to current diesel engines, but advances in emissions on diesel engines will have to wait for ULSD.

ratbert1

Wonder why nobody else offers heated cloth seats??

- My Outback has heated cloth seats. I'm sure there are others.

And I agree that CARB is a bit rediculous, although the requirement for ULSD is needed for sure. As I understand it, ULSD does not require any changes to current diesel engines, but advances in emissions on diesel engines will have to wait for ULSD.

moparbad

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7222&sid=18- 0&n=157
quote-VW charges only $205 more for a Passat TDI compared with the base-model Passat 1.8 turbo. Honda's innovative Civic Hybrid, by comparison, costs over $5000 more than a comparable base-model Civic. So long as gasoline hovers around $2 per gallon, the Passat TDI will have earned back its extra cost in as few as 20 fill-ups at the diesel pump - compared with 289 fill-ups before the Civic Hybrid earns back its price premium.-end

Less price premium for diesel.

djasonw

I too can't understand the huge premium for the Civic Hybrid. It doesn't have many additional features. Payback would take a LONG time.

djasonw

I believe the reason auto manufacturers don't offer it is because AMERICAN people DON'T want manuals. That is a DEFINITE!! There is a SMALL minority out there that does want the advantage of a stick and they seem to be the most vocal on this forum. I LOVE driving a stick, but in my 20 mile commute to work that can be bumper to bumper at times, I prefer an automatic. In Europe its quite the opposite. The market DRIVES what is offered. It looks as if my second car is either going to be a Mini or a Harley (yes a Harley). I can't decide.

ratbert1

Wonder why nobody else offers heated cloth seats??

- My Outback has heated cloth seats. I'm sure there are others.

And I agree that CARB is a bit rediculous, although the requirement for ULSD is needed for sure. As I understand it, ULSD does not require any changes to current diesel engines, but advances in emissions on diesel engines will have to wait for ULSD.

john1701a

> So please don't say that "90%" of the population prefers to drive auto when that is unfounded and inaccurate.

Your argument circled around the fact that manuals are hard to find. But all it takes is an order to get one. You can *NOT* order a hybrid SUV, Pickup, or Minivan even if you wanted one, with no concern for cost either. It is impossible!

A huge reason why manuals lost their appeal is the fact that back that in the very early 90's an automatic was invented that could deliver greater torque. I know this well; a few friends had trucks before then that were manual specifically for the reason of needing maximum torque. They didn't like shifting. But since that was the design that offered more, that is what they had to buy. That isn't true anymore, people can buy an automatic without giving up the power. In fact, getting a manual means sacrificing some power.

JOHN

moparbad

www.canadiandriver.com/news/031204-7.htm

DSG allows manual or automatic shift or manual shift without the energy loss of a traditional automatic.
http://www.auto-innovations.com/site/document/ddsg.html

ratbert1

Wonder why nobody else offers heated cloth seats??

- My Outback has heated cloth seats. I'm sure there are others.

And I agree that CARB is a bit rediculous, although the requirement for ULSD is needed for sure. As I understand it, ULSD does not require any changes to current diesel engines, but advances in emissions on diesel engines will have to wait for ULSD.

bhill2

Nah, the dominance of automatics in this country has its roots back in the '50s and '60s. In those days, the 'standard shift' (3 on the tree) was so dreadful to use that everyone wanted an automatic. The 4-speed made brief inroads in the '60s, but was identified with performance cars rather than mainline sedans. When the pollution controls started getting serious in the '70s, and car makers had to separately certify different drivetrains, they largely decided that certifying manuals was not economically sound so they stopped offering them. Once that happened, people started forgetting how to use sticks and why they would want to. That's one of the reasons that sticks are still popular in Europe. They had good ones and continued to offer them. Sticks have definite performance advantages; you can get more performance out of the same engine, or alternatively the same performance out of a smaller (and more economical) engine. And that is not even to mention the greater driving control that you have due to the direct connection between the engine, controlled by your foot, and the driving wheels. This difference is amazing and addictive, and I suspect if sticks were more widely available in this country they would become far more popular. It might take a while, but it would happen.

moparbad

quote- The verdict:

Prius is comfortable, a festival of technology and unquestionably cleaner-burning than the VW can be today with only high-sulfur diesel fuel available. But the real-world mileage of pleasant-driving Jetta was better than that of Prius, and diesel fuel typically was 16% to 20% cheaper than unleaded gas.

Jetta lived up to its one-tank billing. Prius did not.-end

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-06-10-diesel-vs-hybrid_x- - .htm

Gee, that's what I've been saying, better mpg and less expensive fuel.

usbseawolf2000

First, there is a flaw in the test that shouldn't even make conclusive. He assumed that Prius had 11.9 gallons of gas to start with. Prius screen reads out 51.7 MPG, compare to Jetta 44 MPG. His calculation(422miles /11.1 gallons) of Prius was 38 MPG. That's 27% in error probably due to bladder(high sulfer fuel) issue, meaning he didn't have 11.9 gallons to begin with. Most Prius owners will agree that the screen is off by 2-3% only. Based on that, Prius achieved higher MPG. Again, the test can not be conclusive.

Second, 500+ mile long distance highway commute is in favor of diesel because diesel is pretty efficient in that situation. Prius seems to get higher MPG even though there are less energy in gasoline fuel. How about 500 mile test in Manhattan, NYC and take average of both tests?

Also, there is no info if he used Jetta manual or automatic.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000

"and diesel fuel typically was 16% to 20% cheaper than unleaded gas."

Yes, during summer, when home heating oil demand is low. During winter and fall, you pay premium for diesel fuel.

Dennis

djasonw

Tester must of been one of the reporters that was let go from the NY Times for writing false stories. LOL!!! There is now way that a disparity on calculated MPG can be that far off. I'll stick with my lean clean machine for now. I've gotten used to the nifty built in NAV, that great smooth CVT, the cool smart entry and so much more. Too bad the TDI doesn't have all those features. It'd be tempting.

gagrice

90 PERCENT of the population does not want a Hybrid, since they purchase non-hybrid vehicles

I think the public are fickled and watched a couple Hollywood types jump into a Prius and it became the next fad. When I test drove the first of the Prius vehicles in San Diego they had sat there for two months. The whole project almost went down the toilet. I would have bought it for my wife. She would not be "caught dead in a vehicle that ugly". She opted to stay driving her 1990 Cressida. We got divorced and that was the end of buying a new vehicle.

john1701a

> When I test drove the first of the Prius vehicles in San Diego they had sat there for two months.

For the first 2 years, Toyota corporate did *NOT* allow dealers to sell their demo models. Dealers were forced to keep them available for test-drives for a minimum of 3 months. Then a replacement would be provided for the dealer.

So your observation was an honest misunderstanding of the distribution process.

> She would not be "caught dead in a vehicle that ugly".

Cosmetics have absolutely, positively nothing to do with hybrid technology. In a few years, you will be able to by a traditional model vehicle with a hybrid system hidden inside.

JOHN

gagrice

This is very strange to me. I have John on one side saying not to take short trips in the Prius and you say don't take long trips. I don't commute 25 miles each way to work. I commute 3000 miles each way. So I guess the Hybrid would never fit my needs.
PS
I thought the USA Today article was very fair in presenting the pluses of both the VW TDI and the Prius.