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Comments
I started my libby yesterday, and had to stop the engine after leaving the driveway because I forgot something in the house. On restarting the engine, it experienced a lack of power and ran rough. Idle speed was even rougher, and the engine seemed to be ready to stall out.
I stopped the engine, restarted, and the issue has not returned. There were no trouble lights, just a libby that didn't want to go until I restarted, or should I say rebooted.
For the record, 05-05 build, about 21-22 mpg, on my third egr (2nd replacement), and to my knowledge no TSBs have been done.
Any ideas on the rough performance?
My dealer said star told him the hose "SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY OIL ON IT ON THE OUTSIDE." If others have oil on the outside maybe it's recall time? Let you know.
Farout
Farout
I will be calling the dealer for an appointment so they can look at the engine and rear leaks. I do want these defects noted. I have been using ULSD the last week and I'm not getting any smoke. I used to get smoke after cruising at 55 mph for more then 20 minutes then moderate acceleration when passing someone. This is not happening with the ULSD. I can't smoke screen anyone with this stuff
Question for everyone.....my understanding is that these vehicles have been made here and sold in Europe for years...obviously, some modifications were made for sale in the USA, but it is basically the same vehicle using basically the same engine. In fact, on the VM Motori sight, there is a news brief showing the delivery of the 500,000 engine to DCX from VM Motori....if that is the case, what is different about the American CRD's that is causing so many people to have so many problems? The egr valves and the transmissions seem to be where most of the problems are.....are these parts unique to the American versions in the Liberty? But isn't this the same tranny used behind the Hemi in other vehicles, and I haven't heard of those tranny's having these problems??? Can anybody shed any light on this???
Twocycle2
The 500,000 engines were at different stages of emission laws when produced.
To me it appears that DCX used us for a test market. We have paid a high price to be involved with their test on how people would respond to a diesel in a Jeep. I highly resent not being fully informed that they would only use the V M Motori diesel for only two years. I think DCX knew that this engine would not pass the US emission laws and they would have to put a different engine in the Liberty at some latter date. I wonder if some consumer laws were ignored. With that said I am still pleased with the CRD, and I hope the engine holds up until I have it paid for. Would I do the same thing, of trading our 2005 Liberty Limited in on the CRD Sport? If I knew that gas prices were going to be this much lower than diesel, I doubt I would have even considered it. I expected at least 24 mpg, and that diesel would be at least what gas would be. However there still may be a time in the near future that this might all change. I can't see truckers continuing to pay such high prices for diesel and not revolt in a national way of some kind. Where we live gas is 11 to 19 cents cheaper. Some places gas is $2.589 to $2.649 and diesel is $2.759 to $2.859. I do not know how this is to other areas. Hope this sheds some at least dim light on my thoughts.
Farout
It has the same equipment you have in the States. I wasn't able to take a look underneath at all of it's different features because the salesman was chasing me away. It has the throttle sensor mounted directly on the pedal, the water cooled electrically controlled egr and the air mass flowmeter I don't have. I will try to collect local information on issues if any.
One thing that came up recently is a study of the second hand market for recent cars. People are not buying the fully 'computerised' cars second hand because of the extravagant cost of repair/exchange. This is new and may induce a significant change of attitude. Even Toyota is on the black list with their common rails in the UK.
The current EGR system/design is new to the American market.
This transmission, specifically torque converter, may not be up to the task of the low RPM torque. The HEMI is only producing about 100 ft-lbs of torque at 1800rpm, and max torque is at a much higher RPM and for much shorter times.
The CRD produces nearly 300 fl-lbs of torque at 1800 RPM, and it's in that range for the majority of it's operation when at speed. This is the difference that may be eating up the torque converters of the 545RFE transmission that is also used in the HEMIs.
The EGR issue and the smoke in the exhaust are related to the poor quality of the fuel and the high sulfur content. The sulfur and it's by-products are corrosive under the right conditions and will destroy the EGR valve and damage or destroy anything else it touches.
I would suggest that you continue with the ULSD. For those of us that cannot find it yet, use a good fuel additive and cetane improver. Also, use an oil that is CI-4+ rated. This will help the EGR valve survive longer. Manufacturers of large diesel engines with EGR valve, liquid cooled or not, are recommending the use of CI-4+ rated oils.
Look at the specs of the oil, especially the vaporization rate (Noack or ASTM D-5800). Mobil 1 has vaporization rates in the 13 - 15 % range which is pretty high. Shell Rotella is around 10%, while Amsoil 15W-40 and RedLine products are around 6%. I bring up this point because this oil vapor adds to the work the EGR valve must do and it makes a mess of the CCV system and the intake system.
http://fsunw3.ferris.edu/~millerm/Chrysler Automatic Transmission.pdf
It is quoted that the new KJ will have the 42RLE instead of the 545RFE.
This is the one I have already... :shades: , and it's perfect.
Could you possibly check on the vehicles that have transmission problems if there is a correlation?
You can see the type of transmission you have by reading the sticker from underneath the driver's door.
What I don't understand is that the first number gives the number of gear changes, and mine has 5 gears and starts with a 4 :confuse:
The trans is the same but in Europe where diesels are more common, they drive them differently than we do here. We treat them like gas engines and we are use to winding the dickens out of our gassers to get any kind of power. With this or any turbo diesel, you do not need much right foot. Gentle is the word and use your tachometer. It is a valuable device. The max torque of this diesel comes on quickly and at fairly low RPM. Apply this too quickly and too frequently and you will kill any automatic trans. Yes, this trans goes on the back of a hemi, but as mentioned elsewhere, the torque curve for the hemi is different and it comes at higher RPM. Also the amount of torque for this diesel is very high over a wider band (at lower RPM) than for the hemi and that adds additional stress.
A lower vaporization rate is generally better. Oils like those from Mobil 1 have been severely hydrotreated and tend to come apart more easily than oils that have been given less hydro treatment or none at all. There are several classes of synthetic oils from I to IV. The first class has had little or no hydro treatment and as the number/class increases, there is more hydro treatment. With lower vaporization rates, there are fewer breakdown products to coat the interior of the engine with varnish or sludge. The other benefit is that the CCV system and the aftercooler stay cleaner much longer. With less junk in the intake and in the charge, the exhaust gases are themselves cleaner putting less stress on exhaust components such as the EGR valve.
As to where I live, I am in Montgomery County and as far I know, ULSD is not being sold here yet.
As to the fuel additive, if you are driving a CRD, you will probably not need it as they are designed to run on ULSD. That additive would be more appropriate in older diesel injection systems (not common rail but rotary pump).
The newer CRD has the same egr valve you have. Mine is too old to be sophisticated...
My engine controller just asks the solenoid valve to open the vacuum line to the egr actuator when there is no load, and to close it when the load comes back. There is no feedback of the egr position on my truck, so this makes my life better.
The transmission I have in my 2003 model is apparently the next transmission you will be getting. This could well explain part of the shudder saga.
Make: Jeep
model: Liberty
year: 2001
engine: VM, 2.8L CRD turbo diesel
If anyone can help me, please let me know.
Regards :confuse:
This Liberty wasn`t sold in the US, it was sold in Costa Rica, Central America.
The problem I have is black smoke always, and when I tried to scan, there wasn`t communication.
So I want to check the wiring and sensors` signals.
The ECU part number is:
0 281 010 291
P56041700BA
Thanks
I also found out why DCX is making this oil weight such an issue. There have been a number of engines when starting because of heavy weight oil have destroyed parts because of slow flowing oil. My oil was tested, and it is 50% and is acceptable for it's lubercating value. The tec said to stay with 0-40W. There has been a number of CRD's with cracked cyclender. sleeves, and water in the oil.
The tec also informed that the buying public response to the diesel is not near what DCX has expected, and this was a major loss. They were told not to look for a diesel in the Liberty type of vehicle, until the next big change in the model. There is a strong chance of a 3.8 L or 4.L perhaps in 2007, with the 5 speed automatic transmission.
The Compass is now able to be ordered for delivery in late May or early June. The Patriot won't be here until Fall. The Cvt with its belts are something that the tec said everyone is anxious to see how they do in the future.
Caribou1, what weight oil do you use in your CRD? And is the weight of oil the same in Europe as here in the US?
Farout
Farout
Farout
First, thank you to everyone who responded to my questions about the differences between the American version and the European versions....the info was very informative.
Farout, as to the quote above from the tech, does this sound accurate to you? My understanding was that the original plan in 05 was to build 5000, but that demand was so large they increased production to over 8000. As for 06's, the dealers in DFW couldn't keep them....they'd come in and be gone within a week or two. In fact, it's hard to find any dealers that have any left at all at this point. The Limiteds seemed to sell quicker than the Sports....the only models I ever saw discounted were a few Sports from early 05, and by looking at them, it was because of their color/equipment that they didn't sell. Personally, I think the engine DCX chose to test on us is a bit crude....with all the European diesel offerings, an engine as refined as the VW TDI might have made the CRD a real hit. I come from a background of diesels, and I appreciate how advanced our engine actually is....unfortunately, to the average consumer, many people probably test drove it and found it to be "too noisy" for daily use. Especially when you can get in a VW and hardly tell a diesel from a gas......just my thoughts.....
I'm like you....I hope the engine lasts, and that DCX supports the engine with parts at least until I can trade it in, if that's what it comes to.....I hope it holds up, though....it's still one of my favorite vehicles I've owned. It's a blast driving around in a vehicle I love that nobody else has!!!!
Twocycle2
Twocycle2, Two of the dealers in the Seattle, Tacoma area told me the Liberty CRD’s would sell in spurts, but fast. I just did a inventory check of the regional dealers and found 11 CRD’s on lots. 8 Limited and 3 Sport. I have yet to see any CRD’s on the road, but lots of VW TDI’s on the road.
I have been told by the finance minister, no new car until 2008.
The best advice I can give you is to NEVER argue with the finance minister on domestic spending issues!
tidester, host
Yes tidester, I learned along time ago not to argue. My midlife crisis is to buy a VW Jetta TDI, so I’ll just have to chew on my bottom lip until the Fall of 2007. :sick:
Actually, oil that has been "heavily hydrotreated" should be less apt to break down. The first purpose of the hydrotreating is to remove sulfur by converting it into hydrogen sulfide (H2S, rotten egg smell, very toxic) which comes off as a gas. The second purpose is to remove residual unsaturation from the molecules. Any double bonds (the unsaturation) present are prone to oxidation (the reason "used" oil is dark brown or black) and polymerization (leads to the sludge). Hydrotreating a lot actually should be a good thing, but the process is slow and doing it for longer adds cost. Hydrotreating may also remove some of the aromatics (benzene-like compounds). It's hard to have a consistent viscosity profile if aromatics are present. Usually, they try to remove these before hydrotreating--more of problem with conventional motor oils than for synthetics.
All oil manufacturers test the vaporization rate. As you guys suspect, there is a specification for it. They do something called a "simulated distillation" using a gas chromatograph (GC) (if you don't know what this is, just watch CSI and they like to show them off). From the 30 minute GC experiment, they basically know how much oil will have boiled off at a given temperature. I vaguely remember a spec. for conventional oil (from '98, when I was a co-op) being no more than 7% boil off at 700 or 800 degrees F. Because engines don't run at these temperatures, it would seem that boil off should be slow, but it mysteriously goes somewhere.
I hope this was at least moderately insightful.
Steve, Host
I'm sure someone has already thought of it but I wonder whether processing with high intensity ultrasound (implying high pressure and temperature) to remove the sulfur and break those double bonds would be feasible, quicker or cheaper?
You may enjoy the Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2 discussion.
tidester, host