Chevy Uplander/Pontiac Montana SV6/Saturn Relay/Buick Terraza

regfootball

"plus the fact that my daughter could not reach the door handles."

I missed that part in Car and Driver...where did you see that %(

major misses or not those minor points may be, the Titan is a direct bullseye. Not one ounce of dispute in that.

The F150 is impressive too, although I really didn't think the interior was that great when I saw it on the show floor. My friend who hates domestics thought it was the bomb.

All I know is the Titan hauls [non-permissible content removed]. Plus I see it handles too. Not sold on the exterior look, but the interior I am agreeable to mostly. Regardless of all that its clear the Titan is a direct hit and real threat to the full size truck market, even if at only 100,000 k units a year.

For the record, I like Ford, Dodge and GM trucks (exception on GM trucks being the dimestore interiors). A Chevy trucks is a very nice truck. Except when they cartoon it like the Avalanche and Escalade.

As far as headroom in a third row seat, a)kids are the ones back there. b) even if the Armada has a bit less headroom at least it has plenty of leg room. Does a suburban or tahoe have the same amount? Likely not.

Dindak, I apolgize if you took it personally, cause I really meant it in jest, but I can't seem to recall where you've pointed out a GM product you don't like. If there is one, I'd like to know. As for me, I'd be glad to list the GM prods I do like (and their disclaimers of course). Example....I like the Monte Carlo even though I hate NASCAR, cheap plastic, pushrods, etc. For some oddball reason the Monte strikes me as a decent car. I like the uniqueness of it. It doesn't have the freakshow looks of something like the Ion.

rctennis3811

Car & Driver gave a first impression of the new GM vans in their latest issue. The critisized the width of the van for being too short and they also critisized the flat-load floor as being too high, unlike other minivans which have a "canyon" behind the third-row.

regfootball

what about the new interiors and low hp engine?

jchan2

don't forget, this is just a refresh. It'll be 09 when we get the new Lamba platform vans. (from earlier in the discussion) Expect big discounts though. These vans may be the best buys in the industry once GM slaps $3000 cash on the hood. Even a better buy than the Odyssey.

alpha01

Include:

No Power Liftgate option
No Curtain airbags or side impact protection for second and third row passengers
No available 8 passenger seating
Sliding door windows that dont vent ("let alone roll down")
Third Row Windows that cant be operated by occupants
And of course, theres no fold away rear seat
Is there a NAV option?

Whatever. I propose a name change for at least the Saturn... from "Saturn Relay" to "Saturn Rebate"

~alpha

jchan2

They got rid of this? The last unique thing they had before the Sienna. And now they're dumping it. Wow. What is really going on inside Bob Lutz's head?

ateixeira

Titan is not quite a direct hit. I just pointed out why they missed the mark. By a little maybe, but certainly no bulls' eye by any stretch of the imagination.

C&D has "new car disease", they always pick the newcomer. And so what? They don't even evaluate these trucks in the way most families will use them.

Expedition has 3rd row headroom, adults fit. The middle 2nd row is livable, too. And yes, a 4 year old can open her own door (kids like to be independent). IMO, for families, which is the way most of these will be used by the way, the Ford is better.

C&D takes them on a slalom and races 0-60 unlike any owner will actually do.

alpha: I swear, I made the same joke in the Cobalt thread. But yours came earlier, so you get the credit.

-juice

dindak

spartanmann : I'm an investment associate, I know where all my investments are and aren't.

reg : Dislike many GMs, I just don't participate in those boards (ex. Grand Am). Like NASCAR ok, prefer CART / F1 / LeMans.

ateixeira : Finally saw a Titain.. it's not bad but I'd buy an F150 over it anyday. The Armada is real ugly though, yesh!

alpha : Current leftover 2003 Ventures have C$6000 on them right now. Very tempting though there isn't likely much left.

ateixeira

Update: Nissan issued a TSB to add a bonding agent between the roof and headliner to stop the buffeting.

Seems like a pretty big oversight to me, but at least that should fix it. Still, remove/replace the headliner on a brand new vehicle is asking for rattles.

By the way, even the Inifinit QX56 has the same complaints I have about the Armada, it doesn't address a single one of those faults.

-juice

tomcat630

"Update: Nissan issued a TSB to add a bonding agent between the roof and headliner to stop the buffeting."

Oh yeah, they are really going to "take over the truck market".

Anyway, I agree that the new GM vans are not enough to make a dent. The 'sport van' thing is silly, it's still a minvan.

alpha01

Gotta disagree with ya re: Car and Driver and the "new car disease". Can think of a bunch of comparos that show results contrary to this logic.

And actually, Car and Driver offers the 0-60 (in which brake torqueing is used, or double clutching depending on transmission) BUT ALSO the "Street Start" which is representative of what anybody can do- just nail the go pedal to the floor, no tricks. The 30-50 and 50-70 are pretty useful real world comparsions as well, IMO. So the performance testing might not be as far out of the real world realm as you'd think...

Dindak. Youre right- to get the best acceleration time of the Sienna, you will be taking a fuel economy hit and not making the EPA figures. However, the same can be said for the GM cars. The Sienna, given its distinct power advantage, can provide the FLAT OUT acceleration of the GM minis with much less effort. Now wheres the MPG hit?

~alpha

PS- re: Saturn "Rebate".... it is said that great minds think alike...

dindak

tomcat : I don't think Bob Lutz is loosing much sleep over Japanese pickup yet.

alpha : In terms of highway travel (which would be 80% of what we use our van / suv for), mileage would be virtually the same.. that's my only point. Given the rebates on Montanas, I could not see even considering a Sienna if I was buying today. That said, we are going on a tight budget this year with #2 coming, you may not be.

There will be rebates on the new vans no doubt BUT it's unlikely they will need the same lofty amounts they have today.

spartanmann

The rebates will need to be much higher than $3000 for the new vans to be a better deal than the Odyssey, Sienna etc... Compare current resale values. Maybe at about a $6000 rebate (certainly possible within 2 years) you might save enough to make up for the resale difference. Of course that still assumes the new van measures up to the Odyssey or other more modern competition.

Just wait until 2009? The Japanese and DC now bring products from concept to production in 36 months. That's the only way to stay ahead of the competition.

dindak

Resale isn't really important if you keep your vehicles for a long time. The difference isn't great between any comparable 8 year old cars.

Given the current vans don't have $6K in cash back, it's highly unlikely the new ones will need it as they will be better in most every way.

jchan2

offer that on top of low rate financing on the Relay, and I'll buy anyday, even without the Sienna's fancy features. I'll accept the pushrods, take the plood, even take the non-canyon fold flat seats. I could do a lot with $6K cash in savings from buying a Relay. If I pick the Outlander, Terraza or Montana SV6, I might even be able to bargain!

spartanmann

I'm glad to hear you know what your investments are up to. But you didn't say whether they include ownership in foreign companies or North American companies that do business with them. It's really ridiculous to try to support a "North American" company when in fact all the major auto companies are large global operations. You can however, support North American workers and suppliers with your purchase of a specific minivan. All of them are made here except Mazda and Kia.

You're right about resale not mattering if you keep the vehicle a long time. Fortunately for the auto companies, most people don't. You're wrong about the new vans though. New grilles don't make a new vehicles. The general consensus is they are a stopgap lacking the features and drivetrain to compete. The rebates will be enormous and will make the van a good deal for buyers who don't mind their limitations. But not for GM (and their stockholders) who will continue to lose money on them. Expect to see at least $5000 in rebates within two years of introduction. It will take that much to compete with the rebates on the "All New" Freestar (currently at $2000 three months after introduction.)

jchan2

I'll take $5500. Anything under, and the rebate won't cover my losses by switching from the Odyssey over to the Relay/Uplander. (resale losses)

dindak

Very few non-NA companies and no autos in my small portfolio. Point is, a lot more people (by a landslide) in NA own GM / Ford and DC stock. You also know their priorities are here and not overseas.

Most people I know keep vehicles a minimum of 5 years. If you don't then lease, then the resale is not a factor except in the payment where it's made up for with lower lease rates by GM.

wsag26

I'm not even taking a Relay/Terraza/Uplander/SV6 with a $5500 rebate. I don't care what the rebate is. The car has to be sensible, and if it is not, you can forget me being a buyer. I'm not going to buy a Terraza or any luxury minivan because.... (i don't have children) if I had children, they'd probably spill something. Last time I remember, juice on leather stains. I wouldn't buy a Relay, because its a Saturn, plus it looks ugly. I wouldn't buy an Uplander, because the Relay is probably a little bit cheaper. I wouldn't buy an SV6, because ALL OF THOSE MINIVANS ARE THE SAME THING. How do you expect to sell, when you're selling the same thing over and over again. I don't know....

wsag26

I like the interior!

dan165

RE: Your mileage numbers. In Canada, L / 100kms

Sienna FWD : 12.2 and 8.1 (city / highway)
GM triplets FWD : 12 and 7.8

GM triplets are still better. Not sure what numbers you have but these are from Canadian corporate web sites and the GM vans did win again for 2004

http://www.oee.nrcan.gc.ca/vehicles/efficient/efficient.cfm?Print- - View=N&Text=N#TVN

alpha01

I used the EPA (USA) figures.

~alpha

jchan2

The interiors of both look pretty nice to me, minus the plood. (which I hope is optional on both)

dindak

I knew I wasn't wrong. GM vans are still better!

EPA link to you data alpha?

jchan2

have always been known for the highest MPG numbers.

samnoe

has been rated as the "truck of the year" over the Nissan's and all other pickups in every aspect by Automobile (or Motor trend, I don't remember now).

The only really advantage of the Nissan is the powertrain.

samnoe

Where can I see the interior of the new GM vans?

regfootball

the chevy truck got dumped on by C/D. they even had the new tundra ahead of it.

Now I still would take the Chevy over the tundra but I think the net effect of the truck market is for all intensive purposes a draw between the Titan and F150. Clearly GM needs a cosmetic and interior update.

re:vans

the GM vans are 'all new', yet it is clear they are destined for a last place finish in an upcoming comparo. The writing is on the wall....they just needed to be new in every way, not refreshed.

DCX at least put fancy folding seats in their aging vans.

spartanmann

Dindak - DC priorities are North American operations first? Know any Chrysler employees who agree with that? GM and Ford products are much more competitive in Europe and Asia. They have to be as they are the "foreigners" without homefield advantage. Looking at their passenger car lineups over the past 10 years, and the minimal attempt with the new van, and it would be much more accurate to say they have neglected large parts of the North American market. That explains their declining market share and profitability here. From the PR at the Detroit show, apparently the neglect is ending, but unfortunately, not with this van.

rctennis3811

regfootball: DC also put in an all-new chassis, side-curtain airbags, a navigation system, uCONNECT, the overhead rail system, and more. GM barely put anything into these "new" vans. All that will make them sell is those huge rebates.

ateixeira

$4000 yes, $6000 would be crazy even for GM nowadays.

I think they'll match whatever Chrysler does, though.

-juice

dindak

Yes, I suppose just Ford and GM these days. DC is foreign now.

dindak

DC has about C$6000 on their vans right now up here (or 0% for 60 months). GM only has $3000 or 0% for 48. DC seems much more desperate than GM in Canada for some reason.

regfootball

well, DCX wants to sell some vans and figured out what they needed to do to hit the marketing buttons. The skin on the DCX vans is not very new.

BUT WHO CARES! I CAN FOLD MY SECOND AND THIRD ROW SEATS INTO THE FLOOR! NOT FIVE INCHES ABOVE MY FLOOR!

LOLOLOL.

ateixeira

Oh, $6000 canadian. Gotcha.

That's probably on last year's models, right? Before Stow-and-Go?

Saw that system demo'd in Detroit, it's simply phenomenal. You'll be amazed that it fits. I begged and they even let me sit inside - comfort is not bad. DCX has a winner.

-juice

alpha01

The EPA figures are available on the mfr. websites, or you can consult the US EPA's pdf file showing the fuel economy of all vehicles.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/FEG2004_GasolineVehicles.pdf

Reference page 8 for FWD minivans.
Pontiac Montana FWD 19/26 cty/hwy
Toyota Sienna FWD 19/27 cty hwy

Reference page 9 for AWD minvans.
Pontiac Montana FWD 18/24 cty/hwy
Toyota Sienna FWD 18/24 cty hwy

Like I said, the Sienna provides better acceleration, while matching or beating the GM triplets' fuel economy.

~alpha

rctennis3811

Not to mention more safety features and a better flat-folding third-row bench.

regfootball

and no ugly front end.

svevar

...that's debatable.

jchan2

is subjective in the eyes of the beholder.

dindak

ateixeira : Nope, it's 2004 model. 2003s have 0-72 or even bigger cash back if there are any left. DC vans are nice.

alpha : Odd that the numbers go the other way up here. Perhaps it has something to do with different emission standards because the GM triplets are definitely better on mileage up here.

reg : Sienna's nose is literally butt ugly. it has a much nicer interior though $$.

jchan2

is almost like a Lexus. The front though, is very subjective.

dindak

The front is very ugly.

;-)

spartanmann

The new DC vans coming out with all flat folding seats in March will be 2005 models. Any DC van you see advertised with a rebate will be a 2003 or 2004. Don't expect to see rebates on the 2005 models except possibly for the short wheelbase version.

rctennis3811

I, and thousands of other Americans, don't seem to mind that the Sienna has an ugly front end. It pays off because you get tons of standard features, Toyota quality and reliability, a good V6, and (dare I say it) near-Lexus quality inside. There's a lot of innovation in the Sienna, and people should really see it to believe it.

I'm still surprised GM didn't put windows that open on the sliding doors...I didn't notice that until yesterday.

alpha01

True. Maybe GM allows the triplets to pollute even more up north, whereas Toyota doesnt modify the Sienna, since its already ULEV-II in the 50 states.

~alpha

dindak

alpha : Or vice versa. GM vans still better up here though.

rctennis3811 : Dash of the new GM vans looks just as good as the Sienna.

samnoe

The interior dash of the GM looks much better than Sienna, and Sienna has a 'UGLY' front and rear and everything. it's UGLY quality. They should stay with designs as Highlander or Corolla with headlamps & taillamps.

About the sliding door windows which will not be allowed to open anymore... well, Chrysler did the same. The older models (before '96) had sliding door windows which was OPENable, and then stopped to offer it. No idea why?

rctennis3811

Well, at least the DC vans have innovation in them. So, why would anyone buy the new GM vans?? Incentives and rebates only??

ateixeira

Ugly sells, I guess. I'm not fond of the Sienna's face either, but it's still my favorite van. Seems like a lot of customers feel the same way, even without huge rebates.

-juice