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Chevy Uplander/Pontiac Montana SV6/Saturn Relay/Buick Terraza

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Comments

  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Imsult whoever disagrees with you. Intelligent.

    Your analysis leaves out how much Toyota pays to make the Sienna.

    IF IT COSTS 8K TO MAKE A 16K PRODUCT AND 35K TO MAKE A 40K PRODUCT, THE 8K PRODUCT MAKES MORE PROFIT!!!!

    YOUR ALL CAPS LINES ONLY SHOUT ALL THE LOUDER THAT YOU HAVE IGNORED THIS PART OF THE EQUATION!!!

    Corsica: In my opinion, the high dollar mini-vans, whoever is making them, will begin to slow in sales. I look at things like the refinancing boom beginning to slow, the consumer credit run up beginning to max, and increased costs for fixed family expenses like utilities, schooling, and medical care all putting pressure on the what is just about the only market for FWD mini-vans.
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    oh right. it costs 35k to make a sienna.....doubtful. the sienna is made here in the US......and toyota's worker costs are likely less than GM's exhorbitant union contracts. If your average Sienna sells for over 30k out the door and your average chevy is only going for 22-23k (being OPTIMISTIC HERE) that sienna in now way costs 8 grand more to make. Knowing Toyota's manufacturing and engineering prowess and excellence, I'd bet it maybe at most costs 2 gradn more to make a Sienna.

    toyota pays more for better plastic and seats, and spends a worthwhile / necessary / expected amount on engines.

    all the rest is superior design, management, execution. Steel is steel. Bolts are bolts. All costs the same. End product is something folks are lining up to buy.

    when you said 8k costs for the chevy did you mean incentives alone or was that including the cost to make the vehicle also??
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    rctennis3811 : I never said the Malibu was "perfect", I said it was competitive. Please don't misquote people.

    regfootball : People who drop U$40K on a van are nuts.

    tripowergto : Come to think about it I have seen a few Odyssey cabs and airport limos.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    dindak: I didn't quote you on that...

    regfootball: Yea, Siennas are still selling more expensive than the GM vans. Local Chevy dealers have a pretty good amount of Ventures with them. People are looking for vans with value, power, safety, and reliability = meaning Toyota, Nissan, Honda
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Ok.. you claimed I said it. Nissans are no more reliable than GMs.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    to claim value.

    The new GM vans are not out yet, so we have no idea about features and safety. You seem to assume the 3.9 litre will not find its way into these vans.

    The GM press release said more information to come. I think among that information will be that additional engines are coming.

    And if one of those engines is the 3.9 with DOD, then the GM vans will by far have the best mileage. (no place to put an electric engine with a fold down seat, now is there?)
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    Dindak: Yes, but they tend to have better resale which is a plus (Nissans that is).

    Logic1: I doubt that the 3.9L will make it to production in the GM vans' first year. It'll probably become an option on its second year if demand comes up. Hopefully, it will because even Ford has a 3.9L! <<Then it has an upgrade 4.2, but you get the point.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    the local Honda dealer is offering a free leather interior when you buy an Odyssey EX. If yo buy the EX, they'll upgrade you to the EX-L model for free, at sticker price of the EX model, which is $1500 less than the EX-L model. Still not close to the $3000 cash the Chevy dealer is slapping to the hood of every single Venture on their lot, but a good discount. You can't get factory leather on a Sienna for $27K, can you?
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Nissan resale has typically not been great either. Maybe marginally better at best.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    So if Nissan's resale is marginally better than Chevrolet's resale value, then what's the point of buying the Chevy???
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    If that's all that matters (ie $300) to you when buying a car then go buy a Nissan then!
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    You can get an Sienna 8 Passenger CE with cruise, side curtains/airbags, plain wheels, power roll down side windows, stability control, flexible rear seating, top notch crash scores, 21 MPG, very good power, handling, rdie, etc..... for about $25K. In my book, thats good value. The latest safety features + the top rated minivan by nearly every publication... at a good price, with strong resale to boot. Thats my definition of value. I could care less about leather or moonroofs or heated seats. Nice to have, but rather unimportant. Much rather have 8 passenger seating flexibility and stability control. If marginally useful convenience items are your deal, vehicles like the Sedona are available. They're fine, but not for everyone.

    So logic- I guess it depends on your definition of value, because some (like myself) are willing to sacrifice content for state of the art standard setting vehicles.

    ~alpha
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    I agree - the Sienna IS value.
  • joey2brixjoey2brix Member Posts: 463
    I doubt Honda or Toyota put more then 50K units each. so they can go for the high dollar end. @150K+ units, GM, FORD and DC have to go for the cheap fleet and everything in between. GM did an OK job on styling for what you can do on a mini-van. Hell, they did wonders for the Rendezvous compared to the Aztek. The motor is the disappointing part, just like on many of the new lower end models (Equinox, Malibu). We should stop talking about this 3.9L Holy Grail engine. It's out on '06 models and I bet it will be on limited models then. Look, the whole GM minivan line has suffered with the 3.4L dog for the entire model line.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    all of the vans deserve the Rendezvous' 3.6 240 HP "High Feature" engine. The engine currently used, the 3.5 200 HP, is a "High Value" engine.
  • just4fun2just4fun2 Member Posts: 461
    am glad that GM didn't go the way Sienna did for looks. Between the Sienna and Quest, it's an ugly contest that would end in a tie.

    Talk about appliance appeal, good grief!
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    Everyone knows minivans don't look sporty, and that's true (except for the 04 MPV). The GM vans look adequate, though not better nor worse than a Sienna. I actually like the looks of the Quest - innovative and funky-looking. But what everyone's mad about is how GM put in their new "HIGH FEATURE" engine into these vans. They're good vans, with a crappy engine.

    Also, I really hate the side styling of the new vans. It kind of looks like a Rainier/Envoy but not in a good way..
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    it looks more like the Venture, Silhouette and Montana.
  • just4fun2just4fun2 Member Posts: 461
    I agree that mini vans are not sporty. I don't think that SUV's qualify for the sporty name either. Sporty belongs to vehicles that are sleek, low profile and look like they are moving 100 mph while standing still.

    Yes, maybe the engine in the GM's new mini should have had more torque/hp/multi valve what ever, but most people will not even notice that stuff is missing.

    This warmed-over van with a more SUV front end might be what brings people back to the GM show room. People that need a mini van, but don't want to be a soccer mom type.

    I am one who buys what I like and couldn't care less about resale value. To drive something that I really don't like for years so I can get a little more money out of it in the end isn't for me.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    3.5L is not a "crappy engine". If you tried one you'd see that. Compared to your Infiniti engine I suppose it is but you pay for that!
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    Ok, maybe the word "crappy" was overused, I should've said subpar. Honda, Nissan, and Toyota all make better engines than what GM is putting into these minivans.
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    to accept that these "resytle" minivans are medicore products from the get go?
  • just4fun2just4fun2 Member Posts: 461
    I agree!!! If you aren't going to buy one of these vans, why would anybody care what HP, styling or what not these vans have!

    I believe that what's important to some people isn't worth a hill of beans to others.

    Even if GM made the best mini vans out there, someone would say Toy/Hond/Chy vans have more cup holders and that is why they bought something else.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    3.5L is not "sub par" either. Having actually driven one I will tell you it's likely one of the better V6 motors out there, as good as the Toyota V6. I have read several reviews that echo my thoughts.

    If you must have lots of power, I can see you saying the 3.5L is underpowered for this application. To say the engine is "sub par" (especially not even having tried one) is unjust.
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    GM (and so Ford) would like to produce a minivan to be one of the best. But this is not possible since the new models from Toyota & Nissan are just out a few months, and the new Honda will be out at the end of 2004. In the meantime they just improving old models, and when all new minivans will be out, they will do their homework, and then release a model to compete with Honda, Toyota & Nissan.

    I'm just thinking loud...
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    What makes you think I haven't tried one??? ;)
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    At least GM has some fresh cars in the showrooms to replace the Venture vans that have been decorating showrooms for a few years. And Saturn finally has another model! (To look on the bright side of things)
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    You would have said so by now.
  • samnoesamnoe Member Posts: 731
    There will not be so many recalls. If it would be a brand new model.. well, you know...
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    CTS and Malibu were all new models. Both have been fine so far.
  • spartanmannspartanmann Member Posts: 197
    I understand GM completely. I'm not a GM basher and was born, raised and still live in one of their biggest factory towns. I just wish they'd commit to making competitive products. Any neutral observer looking at their deteriorating market share and financial performance over the past decade will tell you that the old ways of badge engineering are a disaster. They've dramatically improved their pickups, SUVs, Cadillac and are finally starting on their passenger cars although the Malibu wasn't everything it should have been. But these vans are not going to sell without huge incentives because they will not be any more competitive than the ones they replace. GM execs are the first to say that incentives are killing the bottom line. And when you introduce a warmed over van that will take big incentives to move, then it will be a money loser. Thats what the GM brass say at every analysts meeting. Of course you may know more than them.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Member Posts: 1,031
    I think everybody's excited for a new Saturn model...but sadly, it doesn't have Saturn's trademark dent-resistant body panels. I really admired them for putting them in, it made Saturn ever so unique!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    CTS has been successful at least around here. They still get only small discounts, selling well above invoice at fitzmall.

    The same dealer has Siennas and those are discounted more than a grand off MSRP, basically it's getting CTS-levels of discounts already.

    Given the fact that the Sienna is much newer, at least here the CTS is in higher demand, despite its age.

    GM has a few hits too, CTS being one of them.

    -juice
  • bretaabretaa Member Posts: 130
    To Just4Fun2:
    I understand your feelings that some people are bias against the domestic makes, but really, these aren't the models to defend. You can join me in telling people how good the CTS, SRX, pickups, SSR, F-150, Crossfire, PT Cruiser, etc. are, but these warmed over, badge engineered disappointments just make domestic boosters like us (and the automakers) look bad... The best thing for us to do is demand world-class, competitive products...

    To JChan: If that's the bright side, things are looking pretty dim...

    To Logic1: You nailed the issues 100%. It's depressing the automakers themselves don't see this, huh?

    To RCTennis3811: The reason, of course, it doesn't have the plastic panels is because it's just a rebadge. Saturn's won't have plastic panels anymore because they can't achieve tight panel gaps with them (compare a Jetta next to an Ion in a parking lot and see what I mean...)
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Still think the polymer panels were great but I can see why Saturn is ditching them. Obviously most people don't see the value in them and do not like the gaps.
  • jerrywimerjerrywimer Member Posts: 588
    The excuse for Saturn moving away from the dent-resistent panels was that the current process doesn't allow for those tight tolerances that people expect now. Supposedly there is a viable method, but the cost is much higher.

    This makes me wonder if it wouldn't be possible for GM / Saturn to include the feature on some of their cars (assuming a redesign with competitive features and build quality) in later generations, at the expense of a slightly higher cost. Actually, what I wonder is whether people would be willing to spend a bit more on an otherwise identical vehicle to get the dent-resistent material with the closer tolerances of the non-dent-resistent models..
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    consumers would spend extra on dent resistant material on their door panels and bumpers as they don't care- as long as they like the car, they're going to buy it. But having it as part of a luxury package going into the L300 replacement might be nice.
  • bretaabretaa Member Posts: 130
    While I know almost nothing about engineering, I seem to recall something about the plastic skin being bonded to the frame in a completely different manner than conventional cars. This is one of the reasons why the Saturn minivan rebadged from the Buick, Chevy, and Pontiac versions can't use them. This is also one of the reasons why Saturns and their platforms were so difficult to adapt (and visa versa) to the rest of the GM family.

    Does anyone out there know more of the specifics about this?

    -Bret
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    well, I don't know the specifics, but I do know that using polymer instead of steel does make costs higher and makes wide panel gaps.
  • joey2brixjoey2brix Member Posts: 463
    was the polymer panels hung on a cage built frame around the car. They didn't flex, they just cracked. Of course the engine fires took out most of them before anyone knows how well they lasted. It was expensive and created a slow assembly line. In Saturn's case the panels can't be crimped/welded so many bolt and rivet points needed to be placed on the underskin steel members. Bottom line: Saturn replaces Olds ad must join the GM corp line of rebadging. Hopefully they get extreme makeovers like the Vue to Equinox. The Relay is not a good start.
    The Ion and Malibu should have been direct imports of the Opel Signum.
  • lostjrlostjr Member Posts: 26
    quote: "Everyone knows minivans don't look sporty, and that's true (except for the 04 MPV)."

    Another nose job ;-)

    Things I have never liked about vans are the big expanse of dash and not being able see anything of the car beyond the base of the windshield. Beyond looking more SUV like, I think a more upright windshield and a hood you can see will make these new GM designs easier to manouver in tight places.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    As repeated in multiple threads on Edmunds, BusinessWeek last week reported Opel and Saturn will link up and produce joint engineered vehicles with the first models set to hit the floors in 07 - 08.

    GM cannot simply import an Opel to NA. First, the vehicles are not engineered to NA standards. Second, the market in Europe is not the same as the market in the US. Finally, with the Euro where it is, GM would have to manufacture and source parts here. GM and local suppliers would need to re-tool, something that takes time and needs to be planned for in advance.

    The link of the Opel/Saturn design teams will address those issues.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    Now that Opel and Saturn are working together, does anybody think that Saturn might launch into Europe, with European cars that don't need to be retooled for the US? That's off topic. Back to the vans:

         The GM vans here seem like a big disappointment, as the upcoming "refreshed" DCX vans are going to have everything the GM vans have plus a better fold away seat system. Basically, incentives are going to be standard on each and every one of the vans as soon as they hit dealer lots. Yes, even the Relay will have some sort of rebate slapped on it plus the 0% financing for 60 months that GM is doing on almost every new car it sells. (excluding Vibe, CTS, SRX, and Hummer cars)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think they should do as little as possible to adapt Opels to the US market. Every time it seems like they water them down, and sales are not strong.

    -juice
  • bretaabretaa Member Posts: 130
    To JChan:
         I agree with your comments on the van, but I don't think Saturn will be introduced into Europe in our lifetime. The last thing struggling GM Europe is going to do is rebadge its own models for a money-loosing US brand...

    To Logic1:
         Why can't GM just import cars into the US market? I understand all the technical and government issues, but everyone I know with Jettas, Passats, 330I's, E-Classes, TSX's, A4's, Z's, etc. that are essentially the same as their European counterparts don't have many complaints.

    Don't you think something like an Opel Zafira (which I saw on the road here in Minnesota the other day... It must have been a Mexican model driving in the U.S., I guess...) would be a much better fit into the Saturn lineup than the Relay? I do...

    -Bret
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    stage suggests there will be fewer differences. Adapting a car mid-design always seems to lead to awkward compromises.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    We posted at the same time. To elaborate on my post 560, the European cars you cite were designed for both markets initially.

    The Opels were not.

    GM intends to begin doing with Opel what MB, BMW and VW have been doing all along. It has not to date.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Agreed.

    -juice
  • joey2brixjoey2brix Member Posts: 463
    It was never designed for the US (and its a few years old by now). Didn't take much to "US it".
    Most of Euro has emmision, bumper and better saftey standards already. As juice said, GM takes Epsilon and turns it into Vanilla before bringing it here. Vanilla is good but BORING. Saturn in Europe? What a laugh. Opel has a better Ion. Why bother with Vue when they have BMW and Benz SUV's. Vette's and Escalades are probably popular with the rich who want to show off their wastefull inefficent American toys.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    The gas tank had to be moved, changing the driving dynamics of the car. The bumpers are different, pollution controls and safety equipment are different. And this on a car that uses a US sourced engine and a platform that has been in the US.

    Are you saying the G6 will be boring? I think it will look more exciting than the Opel and more dramatic than the 9-3. The Malibu sells to a different market than the Vectra in Europe.

    The plan is not for Saturn or Opel to sell the others car in the other market. The plan is for Saturn and Opel to sell roughly the same cars in both markets.
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