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Comments
Your analysis leaves out how much Toyota pays to make the Sienna.
IF IT COSTS 8K TO MAKE A 16K PRODUCT AND 35K TO MAKE A 40K PRODUCT, THE 8K PRODUCT MAKES MORE PROFIT!!!!
YOUR ALL CAPS LINES ONLY SHOUT ALL THE LOUDER THAT YOU HAVE IGNORED THIS PART OF THE EQUATION!!!
Corsica: In my opinion, the high dollar mini-vans, whoever is making them, will begin to slow in sales. I look at things like the refinancing boom beginning to slow, the consumer credit run up beginning to max, and increased costs for fixed family expenses like utilities, schooling, and medical care all putting pressure on the what is just about the only market for FWD mini-vans.
toyota pays more for better plastic and seats, and spends a worthwhile / necessary / expected amount on engines.
all the rest is superior design, management, execution. Steel is steel. Bolts are bolts. All costs the same. End product is something folks are lining up to buy.
when you said 8k costs for the chevy did you mean incentives alone or was that including the cost to make the vehicle also??
regfootball : People who drop U$40K on a van are nuts.
tripowergto : Come to think about it I have seen a few Odyssey cabs and airport limos.
regfootball: Yea, Siennas are still selling more expensive than the GM vans. Local Chevy dealers have a pretty good amount of Ventures with them. People are looking for vans with value, power, safety, and reliability = meaning Toyota, Nissan, Honda
The new GM vans are not out yet, so we have no idea about features and safety. You seem to assume the 3.9 litre will not find its way into these vans.
The GM press release said more information to come. I think among that information will be that additional engines are coming.
And if one of those engines is the 3.9 with DOD, then the GM vans will by far have the best mileage. (no place to put an electric engine with a fold down seat, now is there?)
Logic1: I doubt that the 3.9L will make it to production in the GM vans' first year. It'll probably become an option on its second year if demand comes up. Hopefully, it will because even Ford has a 3.9L! <<Then it has an upgrade 4.2, but you get the point.
So logic- I guess it depends on your definition of value, because some (like myself) are willing to sacrifice content for state of the art standard setting vehicles.
~alpha
Talk about appliance appeal, good grief!
Also, I really hate the side styling of the new vans. It kind of looks like a Rainier/Envoy but not in a good way..
Yes, maybe the engine in the GM's new mini should have had more torque/hp/multi valve what ever, but most people will not even notice that stuff is missing.
This warmed-over van with a more SUV front end might be what brings people back to the GM show room. People that need a mini van, but don't want to be a soccer mom type.
I am one who buys what I like and couldn't care less about resale value. To drive something that I really don't like for years so I can get a little more money out of it in the end isn't for me.
I believe that what's important to some people isn't worth a hill of beans to others.
Even if GM made the best mini vans out there, someone would say Toy/Hond/Chy vans have more cup holders and that is why they bought something else.
If you must have lots of power, I can see you saying the 3.5L is underpowered for this application. To say the engine is "sub par" (especially not even having tried one) is unjust.
I'm just thinking loud...
The same dealer has Siennas and those are discounted more than a grand off MSRP, basically it's getting CTS-levels of discounts already.
Given the fact that the Sienna is much newer, at least here the CTS is in higher demand, despite its age.
GM has a few hits too, CTS being one of them.
-juice
I understand your feelings that some people are bias against the domestic makes, but really, these aren't the models to defend. You can join me in telling people how good the CTS, SRX, pickups, SSR, F-150, Crossfire, PT Cruiser, etc. are, but these warmed over, badge engineered disappointments just make domestic boosters like us (and the automakers) look bad... The best thing for us to do is demand world-class, competitive products...
To JChan: If that's the bright side, things are looking pretty dim...
To Logic1: You nailed the issues 100%. It's depressing the automakers themselves don't see this, huh?
To RCTennis3811: The reason, of course, it doesn't have the plastic panels is because it's just a rebadge. Saturn's won't have plastic panels anymore because they can't achieve tight panel gaps with them (compare a Jetta next to an Ion in a parking lot and see what I mean...)
This makes me wonder if it wouldn't be possible for GM / Saturn to include the feature on some of their cars (assuming a redesign with competitive features and build quality) in later generations, at the expense of a slightly higher cost. Actually, what I wonder is whether people would be willing to spend a bit more on an otherwise identical vehicle to get the dent-resistent material with the closer tolerances of the non-dent-resistent models..
Does anyone out there know more of the specifics about this?
-Bret
The Ion and Malibu should have been direct imports of the Opel Signum.
Another nose job ;-)
Things I have never liked about vans are the big expanse of dash and not being able see anything of the car beyond the base of the windshield. Beyond looking more SUV like, I think a more upright windshield and a hood you can see will make these new GM designs easier to manouver in tight places.
GM cannot simply import an Opel to NA. First, the vehicles are not engineered to NA standards. Second, the market in Europe is not the same as the market in the US. Finally, with the Euro where it is, GM would have to manufacture and source parts here. GM and local suppliers would need to re-tool, something that takes time and needs to be planned for in advance.
The link of the Opel/Saturn design teams will address those issues.
The GM vans here seem like a big disappointment, as the upcoming "refreshed" DCX vans are going to have everything the GM vans have plus a better fold away seat system. Basically, incentives are going to be standard on each and every one of the vans as soon as they hit dealer lots. Yes, even the Relay will have some sort of rebate slapped on it plus the 0% financing for 60 months that GM is doing on almost every new car it sells. (excluding Vibe, CTS, SRX, and Hummer cars)
-juice
I agree with your comments on the van, but I don't think Saturn will be introduced into Europe in our lifetime. The last thing struggling GM Europe is going to do is rebadge its own models for a money-loosing US brand...
To Logic1:
Why can't GM just import cars into the US market? I understand all the technical and government issues, but everyone I know with Jettas, Passats, 330I's, E-Classes, TSX's, A4's, Z's, etc. that are essentially the same as their European counterparts don't have many complaints.
Don't you think something like an Opel Zafira (which I saw on the road here in Minnesota the other day... It must have been a Mexican model driving in the U.S., I guess...) would be a much better fit into the Saturn lineup than the Relay? I do...
-Bret
The Opels were not.
GM intends to begin doing with Opel what MB, BMW and VW have been doing all along. It has not to date.
-juice
Most of Euro has emmision, bumper and better saftey standards already. As juice said, GM takes Epsilon and turns it into Vanilla before bringing it here. Vanilla is good but BORING. Saturn in Europe? What a laugh. Opel has a better Ion. Why bother with Vue when they have BMW and Benz SUV's. Vette's and Escalades are probably popular with the rich who want to show off their wastefull inefficent American toys.
Are you saying the G6 will be boring? I think it will look more exciting than the Opel and more dramatic than the 9-3. The Malibu sells to a different market than the Vectra in Europe.
The plan is not for Saturn or Opel to sell the others car in the other market. The plan is for Saturn and Opel to sell roughly the same cars in both markets.