Subaru XT Turbo Forester

lfdal

Sounds like an oscillation in the control loop. If so, is it just MT people or AT's getting it also?

When they designed the fly-by-wire they had to allow for system latency, electrical and mechanical and feed all that good stuff back to whichever microcontroller they're using to "close the loop" on the throttle system.

In any control system some amount of overshoot and undershoot is normal depending upon how heavily damped the system is. The trick is to get it out without making the accelerator feel sluggish (heavily damped) or hunt like crazy for an idle point (too little damping).

I would think this is a sensor / transducer issue. I'd like to think Subaru spent a lot of time tuning this aspect of the system since its so high profile. Which means they should be able to tell the dealer (who probably won't have a clue) what to fix.

Larry

lark6

I didn't notice any "throttle flutter" with the AT XT I test drove last month, but then again it only had 10 miles on the odo.

Ed

corkfish

Would resetting the ECU help? (disconnecting the positive battery terminal). Mine is just over 2000 miles and runs great all around. Seems that the more miles I put on it the better it runs. I did notice that under acceleration you can hear a fluttering sound ( turn the radio off and roll the windows up). I thought it migh be detonation but it isn't really loud enough ( you have to strain to hear it). Someone mentioned "wastegate puck flutter" whatever that is. It does'nt seem to affect performance at all. Even in 5th gear it takes off when I floor it.

stoner420

Sounds kind of like a rattlesnake, or a pressure cooker pot coming to a boil, mostly heard between 2000-4000 rpm? If so, that is the turbo wastegate flutter -- http://wrx.claud9.com/turboback/DCP_0180.JPG -- the green thing in this picture is the wastegate, it bounces back and forth to relieve pressure.

I do enjoy how the turbo noise is much more prominent in the XT than the stock WRX (I never heard any of this until upgrading my exhaust pipes), yet still not obtrusive. :-)

I haven't noticed any weird throttle issues on our XT yet.. well I did at one point the other day, but chalked it up to the AT -- stomped on the gas in 4th, it thought about it for a moment then downshifted rapidfire to 3rd, then 2nd (I was really just looking for 3rd, guess I stomped too hard), I lifted throttle slightly cuz that was too much, and it immediately upshifted back to 3rd. I guess this thing loves to upshift, not so much loves to downshift, though it will downshift hardcore when it finally decides to. AT == :-P

On the upside, the rapid downshift 4->3->2 was extremely smooth, other than the rpms shooting way up, there was no harshness transmitted through the drivetrain at all!

njswamplands

when i play raceboy and need to be real specific about a gear the AT is a mystery on whats gonna happen when you step on it, how low will it go? but in nonrace mode the AT performs like other AT.

also my 1st gear seems to do ok but when it shifts to 2nd a whole new dimension in power comes when accelerating moderately.

waaaaaa, i wanna MT. this car is too fun to drive with a AT. especially when your in manhattan and you need to hit that opening in traffic just right and need that power now.

ballistic

I didn't notice any "throttle flutter" with the AT XT I test drove last month, but then again it only had 10 miles on the odo. Ed

It didn't begin with mine until maybe 1500 miles - probably about the same time I began using somewhat more than light, breakin-routine throttle. It's most pronounced when upshifting using "normal" throttle (somewhere around half throttle), upshifting at 2500-3500 RPMs. It's not noticeable with either light or very heavy throttle.

stoner420

also my 1st gear seems to do ok but when it shifts to 2nd a whole new dimension in power comes when accelerating moderately.

Yeah totally... I just wish it wasn't so enthusiastic about shifting OUT of 2nd so easily... and I *don't* want to 'shift' it myself either, that just irritates me. They ought to have a 'sport' mode for the tranny, much less prone to upshifts, more downshifts.

p0926

"...and I *don't* want to 'shift' it myself either, that just irritates me. They ought to have a 'sport' mode for the tranny, much less prone to upshifts, more downshifts."

Sheesh, you AT types are getting waaay too spoiled ;-)

-Frank P.

kens

Actually, the new Legacy sport-shift does have a sport mode. If you bring the gear selector into the sport-shift gate but don't shift it manually, it will go into a more agressive shift pattern. Pretty nifty!

Ken

ateixeira

The XT is the first Forester to get throttle-by-wire, FWIW.

-juice

stoner420

Sheesh, you AT types are getting waaay too spoiled ;-)

No way.. my WRX is manual! Gimme MT anytime! But as long as I have to have an AT (*cough*wife's car), I don't want to have to shift it manually! :-)

stoner420

I've noticed from the pics of the Baja Turbo it seems to have a separate gate area for pseudo-manual shifting too. Yeah too bad not on the XT :-(

njswamplands

p0926

What about a CVT like Audi uses? Anybody had any experince with one?

-Frank P.

ateixeira

Only on a scooter. It's a little weird and the engine noise tends to drone at the same rpm all the time.

It would definitely take a major adjustment on the customer's behalf. Audi and Nissan offer them nowadays, the Justy used to.

-juice

f1_rox

Can anyone instruct me how to disconnect the electrical connector of the headlight unit? It doesn't come off as I pull it backwards. The manual only says to disconnect it, but doesn't say how...

Also, does anyone know how to change the bulb for the fog light?

thanks

stoner420

without looking at it, if it's anything like the WRX lights, you probably have to squeeze the little tab on the top of the connnector before pulling it out .. might need a flathead screwdriver ?

kens

The last CVT I drove was in a Civic HX several years ago. It's strange how the engine revs and then just hangs at one point as the gear ratios change.

To release the front headlights, you need to squeeze both sides of the rubber plug holding them. There should be markings on the plug.

If the fogs are similar to the 98s, you change them by removing the glass housing from the outside.

Ken

lfdal

Finally hit the 1000 mi mark and got a chance to run-up some highway miles at the same time.

Distance covered was about 240 miles, got 22mpg. May not sound that great but the only time it saw the underside of 85 was stopping at toll booths.

I've got no issues with a car moving at that speed getting 22 mpg. Now, if I could only drive with a lighter foot around town and get above 18.....

Larry

subewannabe

while staring at the moon crossing the sky last night, and thinking about the increased price of gas, i calculated that the combination of gas costs,insurance and amortized purchase price between similarly-equipped XT and na2.5 Forester comes to over $1300/year driving approx. 15K miles. Hmmmm.
Mark

akasrp

Still holding out hope for my XT - have to check out 04 Highlanders (3.3L/5peedAT) to maintain peace with better half.
Waiting for the 04 HL to hit lots is buying me some (subtle) maneuvering time ;-)...

FWIW, my future plans for XT if I were King Of Subaru
(1st 3 per SWMBO; 4th per me):

1) Enhanced cabin sound proofing (highway - high speed rough road).
2) Less harsh highway ride (high speed rough road) sans sacrificing cornering/handling.
3) Less 'tinny' sounding doors (fill 'em with foam!).
4) Sport shift (ala Tiptronic) 5speed AT.

Remember me in your Prayers to Pleides,

srp

lark6

See my recent posts in the Cafe. My wife has the fever for a Highlander, but is also going to look at the Pilot. I have also managed to get her to agree to look at H6 Outbacks. At this point I'm content to let her make her own decision and wait until I pay my Forester off before looking for my own XT. By that time they'll hopefully have colors and options more to my liking.

Are '04 Highlanders not on lots yet?

Ed

akasrp

seriously, Pilot and HL (AWD V6) are suave & swanky beasts - and I could Live with either - but AFAIC both lack the Cool & Fun factors of the XT...

srp

pleiad7

Got word today that my silver XT w/PP has arrived at the dealership - after 3 long months of hoping and waiting I can't believe my baby is finally here!

Won't be picking it up until tomorrow; not sure how I'm supposed to be able to sleep tonight...

srp, I hear ya - my husband is less than excited about the impending XT purchase as well (but mostly because he thinks that my MY00 Outback Sport would still serve me well for the next 10 years or so); I had a lot of convincing to do! However, I think he has come to realize that he would have to check me into a mental institution if he were to put his foot down and veto the Forester ;-)

michaellno

Just finished reading all 1200+ posts. Lots to say about this model, eh?

Here's the deal -- we've got an Explorer that is due to come off it's lease next spring. The wife is looking for a slightly smaller SUV or AWD vehicle. I got her to read the C/D article on the Forester XT, so it's something she is considering. Also on the short list is the Saturn VUE (and before passing comment, I'll tell you that my daily driver is an '03 L300). For the 2004 model year, Saturn will be dropping in the 3.5L V6 from the Honda Odyssey and Pilot -- 250 HP and EPA mileage figures of 19 city, 25 highway.

So, what I'm looking for are reasons for (and against) the XT. Here's what I've come up with:

For --
fun-to-drive
price (maybe -- VUE is $27K the way we want it, probably similar for XT - we'd want the premium pkg for the leather)

Against --
premium fuel reqd (VUE will run on 87)
not as good visibility ("high-up-ed-ness" is what the wife calls it)

Haven't done any comparisons of space, insurance, ownership costs, but I've got lots of time.

Looking for feedback....

lumbar

This is no great insight, but IMO, any "for" list of -any- Subie should start with the best AWD system in the biz--auto or MT.

A possible "against"--and this is very subjective--I've never been crazy about the seats in the Subies I've driven (including my own), although i don't have any experience with the '04 XT.

Call me crazy, but I kinda like the way the Vue Red Line looks-at least from pics. I'm just not sure they can execute it. We pretty much know Subaru can.

lfdal

$1300 per year.

I spend 2 hrs/day in the XT, probably a little more than that on weekends. So roughly 365*2 = 730 hrs/year. That's probably not that far off factoring in off days but adding in vacation trips, etc. Possibly that's even being conservative.

So $1300/730hrs = $1.78 per hour. I suspect that if I factored in the overall cost of regular fuel, insurance, excise tax, car payment, maintenance, etc. I'd probably get nauseous. Actually Edmunds already does that on one of their web pages (calculate per mile cost, not get nauseous).

So I'll look at it like all the base cost magically disappears and I'm just paying a $1.78 premium for enjoying every hour I drive my XT. I think its a bargain :<)

I've owned practical cars for 30 years. Now its time for some fun.

Larry

subkid

that con entry - visibility is a rather big assumption IMHO. If you really compare it, you'd see that Forester has one of the best visibilities in its class. It's not all about a "high-up-ed-ness", but also about a lot of glass surfaces with low edges all around. For instance, backing up with Forester is easier than backing up with any compact/midsize car, just because you can see closer to the back of the vehicle.

K

forestergump

Wow. I'm having the same issues with my wife about the XT vs. the Highlander, and in our case the Endeavor. Both nice vehicles, but since our new vehicle is going to be my daily driver, I prefer the smaller, more nimble XT. Her argument is the additional cargo space of the bigger vehicles. I countered that although they looked bigger, the actual storage spaces between the XT the the bigger SUVs is only about 10 cubic feet - nominal when consideration of the additional height of the HL and Endeavor.

Plus, the wife just let it slip tonight how she thinks she'll be driving "our" new vehicle after a while and she'll be able to palm her Camry off on me as my daily drive! Not a chance! I let her pick her own car out last year and she insisted on the 4 cyl. Camry against my recommendations for the v-6. Now it's MY turn baby! I think she's just starting to realize how much leverage she just lost in "our" consideration of a new vehicle.

joyridea4

My lease is coming to an end on my 01 outback. I am now looking at the XT forester. I have almost new snow tires Dunlop Graspic 225 60 16 tires from the outback (set of 4). My question for you today can I use these tires on the forester which uses 215 60 16 tires. I posed this question to my subie dealer yesterday and did not ever get a straight answer. I guess there is some question about the effect on the speed sensor, the all wheel drive system ,voiding the warranty etc. No one could really answer the question. If it is going to be a problem I will sell the old set and start over with tire rack.
I appreciate your input.
Don

cptplt

its generally considered better to have narrower tires for snow so you don't "plow" through the stuff, the only problem you may have is that the 225s may rub,
as long as all 4 tires are same size the AWD is not affected, your speedo may be off a few % points but thats not a big deal.I run 195/65-15s instead of stock 205/55-16 in winter on my Legacy and the size differences are larger than your case though my winter tires are smaller than stock.
to calculate tire size/speedo differences
http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html
unless your tire size is ridiculously different if you are running same wheel size (so bearing loads are similar) there should be no warranty problem

michaellno

...to all to have commented so far. To respond to the issues raised:

1) We have test driven a few Subarus over the years .. an Outback and a WRX. Don't specifically remember the seat comfort, though I will say that it is on the spouses list of important things. She is driving a '99 New Beetle currently, and complains about the firm seats quite frequently.

2) Visibility can be defined in a number of ways -- this I agree with. However, prior to the Explorer, we had an Expedition on lease, and when my 5'2" wife got behind the wheel, she was not to be trifled with. "Get outta my way, I'm in the biggest d*mn vehicle on the road". With the NB, she can point and squirt through traffic like a hot knife through butter. But, as pointed out in my original post, the high visibility is what she likes.

We have not driven either vehicle yet ... with the Explorer lease not coming due until next May, I'm under orders not to visit any dealerships until Feb or March at the earliest. There are certainly some aspects of the XT she likes -- it's ability to get out of its own way being one of them -- and others she doesn't -- not sure that she'll be happy with black as the only available color of leather -- but we'll give each vehicle a fair shake and take it from there.

I'll continue to watch this list (and the VUE list, for that matter) to see what others have to say.

lfdal

".....and when my 5'2" wife got behind the wheel, she was not to be trifled with. "Get outta my way, I'm in the biggest d*mn vehicle on the road". With the NB, she can point and squirt through traffic like a hot knife through butter."

Not to start a flame war, but with an attitude like that, I wonder why so many people don't like SUV drivers? Or maybe I do....
Larry

ballistic

It ought to warm your heart knowing that your wife shares the public roadways with such thoughtful, considerate folks.

lfdal

Don - were you happy with the Graspics? I'm still looking for some new tires for my XT.

Jack - chills me to the bone is more like it.... I guess more than usual because I had a run in (almost) with a petite woman in an Excursion last week. Its still very fresh in my mind.

Thanks

Larry

michaellno

...I didn't mean to get everyone all up in arms about my statement. I think I chose my words poorly. My wife has not once been in an accident, in over 20 years of driving. My point was that she likes the idea of being up high, and able to see over traffic.

She actually accuses me of driving too aggressively. It's probably because I grew up and learned to drive in and around LA.

Also, did anybody focus on point #1? She drives a New Beetle to and from work each day; our Explorer is driven, occasionally, by our teenaged son.

She drives a road that has seen in the neighborhood of 6 fatalities in the past 18 months (2 of them being a mother and daughter who were hit head-on in their Suburban by a drunk in a Dodge Ram pickup; another child survived). I pray for her safety every day, both summer and winter. We live in a semi-rural area where many folks drive Yukons/Suburbans/Expeditions/large pickup trucks.

We happen to like SUV's. My wife claims she wouldn't be caught dead in a minivan. We started out with the Expedition because, at the time, we were buying $500 worth of groceries at Sam's Club every other week for my wife's job (director of a child care center). When she switched jobs and the lease on the Expo was up, we downsized to the Explorer -- slightly smaller, slightly better mileage, but still has the 3rd row of seats. The Explorer lease comes due next spring, so we're seriously considering another, smaller SUV. Our kids are 17 and 15 and rarely go with us anywhere anymore. Hence our interest in the XT and VUE.

I didn't mean to portray my wife as a semi-demonic, overly aggressive driver. I'm not hear to start a flame war; just to get solid information about a car we happen to be interested in. Sorry y'all took it that way.

envyabull

I post this information because the dealers do not seem to know much about this option yet. I kept asking, "Will this rack accept Thule accesories?" It looked like it would from the images in catalog, but the text and some dealer's comments indicated otherwise.

The answer is "YES." The square bar rack available as an option for Foresters accommodates Thule accessories. It attaches quickly with the flip of a lever at each pedestal and includes locks and keys. This rack is manufactured by MontBlanc. They also make the Subaru brand cargo boxes. It seems to be a better rack for much less money than buying an after-market Thule. I now have three Thule bar sets sitting in my garage from various cars so I know. The rack does sit a few inches higher on the bars compared to the factory rack. It is also less aerodynamic, so noisier, especially with kayak attachments. However, if you already have a bunch of Thule accesories it is the best value.

It does go on and off in just about two minutes so its easy to pop on only when needed. The Forester XT - PP is extremely quiet without the rack, even with that huge Galaxy Roof (moon-roof, hardly!)

lfdal

michael - wait until your wife finds out what you said about her driving in the first post - :<)

Just so we're all on the same page, I live in a very congested urban area, and I've seen a good many people who do use their SUV's as weapons of intimidation.

Seen it done to others, had it done to me. Deliberately, with malice aforethought as they say. So...... I'll admit that I'm sensitive about the whole SUV driver as demon thing.

I've even ticked off some of my friends when I've been a passenger in their SUV's by asking them when they turned into such jerks, they were nice people until they got behind the wheel. I'm happy to say most of them are still my friends.

I seriously digressed here and I apologize for taking up the bandwidth. Something about almost becoming a hood ornament stays with me for a few days.

Also, it sounds like none of this applies to your wife's driving, which can only be a good thing.

Larry

michaellno

Thanks. Just so you know, it's highly unlikely that she'll *ever* see what I said.

Like I pointed out, I'm the aggressive driver in the relationship, though I drive the Explorer about as much as she does.

I have the same problem -- here in Denver, there are lots of SUV's and dually/extended-cab/quad-cab pickup trucks driven as commuter vehicles. And I've seen the same behavior you have. And I'm just as frustrated by it.

I was trying to be <ahem> humerous, and my attempt failed miserably. I've been posting on Edmunds for many years and don't actively seek out confrontation or start flame wars. I'm a huge car nut and have found these boards a great place to find and share information about cars I'm interested in.

OK, enough of this; back to our regularly scheduled discussion of the XT...

subewannabe

Until youve driven an XT with nobody in front of you on a mountain road, you simply cant imagine how much fun it is possible to have in a car that all your neighbors will think is a very sensible compact wagon. Its almost like cheating !

I cant wait for winter to read the posts of new XT owners when the snow hits. Subaru AWD and good usable ground clearance combined with excellent handling make the Forester and the Outback the best cars for winter. Period. With the XT's power, you can also avoid the nincompoops who are out there on bald tires and even less tread between their ears. The Forester has the best safety ratings of any car that is even remotely comparable. but no car or SUV will save you when the tractor-trailer smashes into you. The best safety is the ability to avoid a collision.

The jury is still out on seat comfort in the Forester. Some rave, some rant, some relax.

Larry, maybe I just need to raise my rates by $1.78/ hour to cover the XT!

Mark

michaellno

The ground clearance issue is a biggie for us. The last couple of blocks my wife drives each day is unpaved -- in the winter, lots of mud, slush and such. Plus the unplowed areas or road (intersections mainly) want us to look at a car with more than a little ground clearance.

The NB the wife currently drives acts as a snowplow often -- in fact, with the big storm we had last spring, she ripped off the belly pan going over some hard packed snow. Several hundred $$$ to fix (I had the Explorer that day).

"The best safety is the ability to avoid a collision." -- Amen to that. The wife grew up in Wyoming and is much better at winter driving than I ever will be, even though I've lived in Colorado for 10 years now.

michaell

stever

Good hood ornament post. Have you checked out I don't like SUVs, why do you? It's about as hard to keep up with as the Crew though.

Steve, Host

kens

I read in the "other" forum that Vishnu tuning put a Forester XT on a dyno and measure 170hp at the wheels. That's apparently 10-15 more hp than what one would measure with a WRX. Assuming the WRX HP is accurate at 227HP, the Forester XT has got to be making somewhere in the 240HP range.

Sweet.

juice -- it seems as though you were right!

Ken

lfdal

michaell - something you'd probably want to factor in to your thinking would be the rear diffy protector - there's other ones besides Subaru's (Primitive makes one I think) although the Subaru model seems solid enough.

You also might want to consider replacing the under engine plastic shield with a metal one. I'm reasonably certain Primitive also makes one of those, and there's bound to be others. The official Forester clearance number is still 7.5 inches, I believe.

Also - be sure to factor in the day/night mirror. The new series mirror they're using is a Gentex and it works much better than ones I've seen before, including the ones in the 03's. Its so much better I'm thinking about pulling the one out of the wife's Outback and just buying her one of the Gentex's.

The boost gauge is an out and out frill, but its really cool.

The black leather seats really look much better after they've been dressed up with some Lexol - I don't understand why they send them out so "dry". The lumbar adjust is okay, but I really liked the Ford/Mercury set up with the inflatable air bladder better.

ken - 240 hp. 240 hp. 240 hp....eyes glazing over.... If that holds up it really buries any concerns I had left about mpg. As it sits now with just over 1000 miles its better than my Sable's was.

Larry

joyridea4

Larry, I have no complaints with the graspics. They have a aggressive tread. Last winter in upstate New York they got me around without a problem. The aggressive tread might have a little more road noise than a high performance tread snow tire,but in the Winter I keep the speed down anyway. My priority is get me to work and back home safely. I have also had Mich. artic alpin on my VW Passat. They were a nice tire also. I believe they were less aggressive tread then the graspics which resulted in less rode noise. However, more money for the Michelins. The blizzak is an excellent tire for snow & ice, but I understand that as they wear the ice gripping compound goes away and they are then like having all weather tire. I have not tired them so I do not have direct knowledge on this information. I believe the top speed rating for the graspics is about 90 miles an hour which works for me.
Don

subewannabe

I have five neighbors on 40 acres on top a mountain ridge. The last mile of our private road was unpaved until this summer...the grade is 14% straight up. There is a Subaru in every driveway but mine, and Im just waiting for the new turbo Legacy wagon to come out to make a decision between the Forester XT , the new Outback H6 or the Legacy GT wagon. One of the neighbor's other car is a Jeep Wrangler, but they leave that in the garage in favor of their Outback when the snow and ice hit.

Mark

njswamplands

i cant give you any report on all the miles that are being racked up on the xt/at because my wife, for the first time, has taken complete ownership of the car. the honda odyssey somehow has become my car now??? in fact, i cant stand to be in 'her' xt as her driving do hard and fast terrifies me....

maybe i will have to turn in the odyssey for one of those new '05 subies hehehehe.

iluvsubaru2

Ken,
Having picked-up my new Forester and driven it for a thousand miles, your comments on the 2004 lights were correct. They are good, big improvement over my 2000 Forester.

Low beams illuminate about twice the distance and fog lamps are very useful, providing a big boost in lumens. Now I agree with your assertion that it don't get much better this side of E-code.

My initial impressions on the 2004 were mistaken and I felt I owed to readers of this forum to set the record straight. Much better headlights than I expected on the 2004. Good headlights.

Beyond lighting I'm very impressed with the many improvements over the first generation Foresters. Impression has only deepened over the last month of driving. For the money, 2004 XS is good value. If I were a mountain man or regularly drove busy freeways I wouldn't hesitate to buy a XT with AT. May buy one anyway, come MY2005.

Jake

ateixeira

I knew it! HA HA, who said it was just a conspiracy theory! I told you that thing was making at least 240 horses! :-)

Compared to a Vue? The negatives apparently include wives that steal it from you, speeding tickets, and the fact that everything else seems slow after driving an XT. ;-)

But seriously, the Vue is decent, but when I test drove a V6 it had a bouncy ride. The Redline should tighten that up, I'd hope. The AWD feels like FWD, I think it's a reactive system like Honda's.

My other concerns would be reliability, and then resale. You pay MSRP, too, remember, but when you sell getting retail back for it is nearly impossible.

I'll assume the Redline will get better seats, the existing ones were awful. If they fix that and the suspension, it could be a contender.

You sure it'll burn regular? Pilot does, with 240hp, but MDX wants premium, with 260hp. The Vue splits the difference, so I wasn't sure what fuel would be required. 0-60 I bet even the automatic XT is quicker, the 5 speed much quicker.

Last but not least, I don't think the Vue Redline will come with a manual tranny. For a sporty offering, that's the kiss of death.

-juice

michaellno

According to saturnfans.com, the Honda supplied 3.5L V6 will burn 87 octane gas when put into the VUE.

I'm not thinking of the RedLine edition, just a standard AWD V6. The RedLine comes with 18" wheels, which may result in too stiff of a ride. The V6 will still have 17" wheels as standard, vs. the 16" wheels on the XT.

Wife wants an automatic this time (she only drove sticks when I met her -- guess I've corrupted her!), so the auto-only VUE is OK.

I can get a GM supplier discount, so won't pay full MSRP. The prices seem similar. Equipped the way we want, the MSRP on the VUE is just over $27K, which is within a few hundred dollars of the XT with the Premuium Pkg with no options.

Looks like a head to head comparison will be in order next spring. May also consider the Chevy Equinox but not sure about a first model year vehicle --- did that with our Explorer and have regretted it.