Chevrolet Cobalt

jchan2

ateixeira- hey..... have you tried the Accord???

ateixeira

Yes, but only the 4 banger. It's nice.

Accord's V6 has 40 more horsepower, but actually 8 lb-ft less torque.

The Accord is quicker, sure, but my guess is it's geared shorter because mileage suffers, 21/30 vs. 23/32 for the 'bu. So you lose 2 miles per gallon with the Honda. 5 years ago the opposite would have been more likely, no?

Any how, the point is they are comparable now, it's not the no-brainer that is used to be.

-juice

alpha01

Just really quickly, I'd like to point out that in the Nov 2003 issue of Car and Driver, they compared the 3.5L Malibu to the older 192hp/4sp auto Camry V6 (for whatever reason), and the 'Bu was only 3 tenths quicker to 60 and through the QM. The current Camry LE/XLE V6 have a 5sp auto with different gearing, as well as 18 more hp and 11 more foot-pounds. As you stated, the SE has the 225hp/240lb.ft 3.3L engine.

Finally, in the same issue, Car and Driver obtained 24 MPG overall for the Malibu, and the EXACT SAME 24 MPG for their Long-Term Camry. So, I'm not really seeing the efficiency advantage.

Back to the Cobalt. Looking forward to it. Should be interesting. I'm confused - is the US going to get the Pontiac Pursuit or not?

~alpha

ateixeira

The two cars were not driven on the same loop, so you can't compare the two figures directly. The EPA numbers are more comparabale, and that's the advantage I referred to.

Also, a long-termer takes more trips. On a test drive, I'm sure they're driven much harder. They're pushing the 'bu to see what it'll do, while the Camry enjoyed long highway trips (they specifically mentioned that in C&D).

So the 'bu has a legit edge in efficiency.

The 3.3l is typical of the "moving target" that is this competitive arena. I think it might even be more fuel efficient, not sure, I think the Solara is. Edmunds says "being researched" when I went to look up the mpg.

Pursuit - from what I understood, not at first. The Sunfire will continue selling. Bad idea, IMO, you don't build owner loyalty selling decades-old products.

-juice

alpha01

Good points re: fuel efficiency (although, to that end, the C&D Dec. 01 comparo including the Camry had the 192hp V6 averaging 26MPG....)

Interesting that the Sunfire will continue after the Cavalier is axed, especially since its front end is rather disjointed and peculiar looking, and there are few who dont know its age.

Again, thanks for the info.

~alpha

dindak

Pontiac Pursuit is a Canada only car at this time. Sunfire is gone from here next year, why they are keeping it in the U.S. I have no idea. It's not that it's a bad car, just completely out of date.

jchan2

Why are they letting the US suffer with the Sunfire? It's becoming almost like a Mitsubishi Mirage kind of car. A car that goes to 99% rental sales. Everytime I see one it's really clean with an Enterprise sticker on the back.

logic1

Your third sentence answered your own question. The Sunfire coupe, like the Chevrolet Classic will be meant for the rental market only.

The Sunfire's place in Pontiac will be filled with a coupe and convertible Solstice.

ateixeira

alpha: comparos are the best source if you want to compare mileage. All cars take the same roads and have to keep up with each other, so they're even driving at about the same speeds.

-juice

jchan2

what's the point of the Sunfire coupe in a rental car lineup? Just as the Mitsubishi Mirage was redundant in any rental car lineup, what's the point of the Sunfire if it doesn't have four doors like almost all rental cars except for those Chrysler Sebring Convertibles????

theo2709

I think GM is desparate to lose it's rental car stigma, so it is being very cautious about selling it's new models to fleets. I don't know if I agree with this strategy, as people who drive Camrys and rent a Classic will say "wow GM still sucks".

regfootball

and if a car is good wouldn't you want people drving it and spreading the word?

logic1

to rental agencies. Just not in huge numbers. The problem with selling too many cars to rentals is not so much image as the rentals tend to sell their cars at the same time, lowering resale price all around.

Funny you should use the Camry. I've been stuck with a few rental Camry's in my day. Except noting they are quiet, my general impression is that the car is an oversprung boring dog.

theo2709

The reason I chose the Camry is I bet most of its buyers were decieved by GM a long time ago, and they have probably held a grudge since. Also most Camry buyers know nothing about cars, so they go on quietness (and the big T in an oval) as a symbol of "quality". First impressions make all the difference, and if they rent a Cavalier while the Cobalt is out (without knowing what a Cobalt is), they will not see the siginificant improvements GM has made in recent years.

vcjumper

Does the quiet "oversprung boring dog" better than most and thats why they sell so well. Taurus and Impalas (non-LS) and the previous Bu did the same thing.

dindak

I'm not sure about the rental theory. GM still sells the Sunfire sedan up here now because small cars are big sellers in Canada. Perhaps the Pursuit is more important to have here and less important down there for the first year. No word on how long Sunfire will go on in the US.

regfootball

it smells of 'need to keep a plant open to satisfy a union contract' or 'can't afford to retool an old plant'.

dindak

Maybe. GM, Ford and DC have to make lots of decision based on union decisions rather than business decisions. Sad.

logic1

in the US. In the US at least, Pontiac is moving away from pratical cars and toward more sporty cars.

I can almost guarantee the Solstice will be announced at the NAIAS. If, as expected, the Solstice bows in a Roadster and Coupe version, you have a far more sporty little hardtop with a fictional rear seat.

jchan2

Funny somebody should mention the Camry. I drive by the Enterprise Rent A Car lot once in a while (in a shopping mall, there's one) and once I saw a pair of 4Runners sitting there. I also saw a rental Camry Solara in my neighborhood once, while biking with the kids. And somebody in my kid's scout troop rented a Camry once. All from Enterprise.

regfootball

wasn't the solstice introduced 2 years ago as a concept? If so, that's a LOOONNNGGGG time just to introduce it for production. Might be 5 years between concept car to hitting market.....SLOOOOOOOOO response.

dindak

Bob Lutz wants to get the Solstice out for around $20K and that was tuff to do given it's shape. Apparently they have come up with a new way to shape the body that is cheaper and can get the car in on budget. At $20K, I could afford one which more than I can say about most cool concepts aside from the PT.

logic1

Traditionally, concept to production takes 3 to 5 years. Chrysler the last few years has impressed bringing concepts quickly to market.

On the other hand, some of the concepts which Chrysler have brought quickly to market: the PT Cruiser, the Pacifica, the Crossfire, have had their share of quirks.

If the Solstice comes to market with an rwd platform, reasonable weight and balance, an option for the 2.4 ecotec or a supercharged 2.2, and a price in the low to mid 20s, it has a chance to be one of the most competitve roadsters on the market at any price.

So maybe the question should not be why was GM slow, but what is wrong with the other players already on the market.

regfootball

ah, I can always count on you as head of the GM cheerteam put a proGM spin on anything.

my only point is if it hits the market late, it may be irrelevent, out of date, behind the curve, out of style.

I level the same criticism about the Mazda6....they showed it, takes forever to hit market and we STILL don't have the hatch and wagon yet. To top of it off, its got the 'staining' issue.

where chrysler hit the ground running was that they had made up the concepts before showing them and had decided one way or another whether they were gonna build em. In that sense, showing the conepts was then just advanced advertising for something they had already decided to produce. The concepts hits the shows a lot closer to when job one was. But the point being they hit market very soon after the buzz was generated.

logic1

to best its competitors for price at torque and hp. In fact, the torque and hp will be crowding the far more expensive Boxter and base Z3. If that is technically behind the curve, then what is ahead?

The weight will be a question. But given the Solstice will be sharing its platform with the Opel Speedster replacement, I think the question will get a positive answer.

I am not so sure Chrysler had all its ducks in a row with the concepts I mentioned. The PT Cruiser, Pacifica and the Crossfire all are compromised because Chrysler either squeezed them onto existing platforms or used existing engines where something entirely new might have been best.

The Solstice, if built, will be built on a platform designed specifically for small, sporty, rear wheel drive vehicles. Three years from platform to an all new car is not out of line with auto development standards. While GM probably could have held off showing the concept as soon as it did, I think showing it did have value as a design challenge to the old line GMmers Lutz wanted to shake up and out.

ateixeira

PT Cruiser was the only one of the 3 that sold well, and even then demand had died down and they rely on big rebates.

The Pacifica launch was a huge flop, and they have multi-thousand dollar rebates already. Saw one for $27k, the sticker is around $35k!

Crossfire sales are slow and inventory is well above the 60 days' supply that is industry standard. Another flop.

So they may have been faster, but 1/3 (and fading) is not exactly something to brag about.

Solstice has potential. If it meets that potential I wonder if dealers will even know how to sell them! LOL

-juice

logic1

Chrysler dealers, expect excessive demands for over msrp. GM cannot force the dealers to be square, but they can cajole. I hope the cajoling has begun already.

tomcat630

Those "neato" Chrysler cars are either warmed up Neons (PT), or cars no one really wants (Pacifica, Crossfire).

regfootball

All 3 of those CHRYCO products are better than pretty much any north american GM product. GM has no, PT cruiser / cruiser turbo competitor as far as a small utility wagon for not a lot of money and with style or with a turbo. They have no affordable midlux sportwagon. They have no euro-style 2 seater to compete with TT, etc.

I give credit to Chrysler for trying. GM misfires on too many products. None of those 3 Chrysler products are misfires, like Aztek.

theo2709

The HHR will be the PT competitor, the Terraza is the same idea as the Pacifica, and the Solstice/coupe in supercharged form will be one of the best roadsters/2-seaters under $40k. I agree that GM has nothing to compete with the cars you mentioned reg, but the scene will be very different in a year or two. You can thank Uncle Bob for these.

jchan2

Let's see....
Chrysler Pacifica- Premium SportWagon
Chrysler PT Crusier- Affordable and Roomy Hatchback
Chrysler Crossfire- luxury touring car (or watered down SLK320, to put it that way)

What GM has to compete with each one:
Pacifica- Terraza (this car is late!!) Any of their bloated SUVs (none of which I want or like)
PT Cruiser- HHR (it's a half decade behind, as MT puts it)
Crossfire- Solstice, but when????

jchan2

How long it took to come to market:
Chrysler:
Pacifica: From Concept to Production, 1 year and two months
PT Crusier- Maybe one year??? (didn't keep track of that one)
Crossfire: 1 year and 5 months
GM:
SUVs: 1 year
Terraza: So far, one year and 7 months
HHR: so far six months spent on development
Solstice: Is Bob Lutz working? It's taking forever!!!

theo2709

Keep in mind they had to develop a completely new platform for the Solstice and convince the bean-counters it was economically viable. I agree that GM does have a tendancy to drag its feet.

Recently GM seems to have learned its lesson, and is not releasing photos and sketches years before the cars are due. Seen any sketches/official photos for the G6, whatever the Regal replacement will be, CSVs, the 05 Silverado refresh? It doesn't seem like a company is moving slowly if they release photos much later in the development cycle.

logic1

but they are flawed, are not well accepted, and are losing money for Chrysler.

Better to wait and have a successful product than to hurry a failure to market. Or are bragging rights on speedy delivery more important than bankruptcy?

regfootball

"flawed, are not well accepted, and are losing money for Chrysler"

O CMON! WHERE DO YOU GET THAT FROM!?!?!?!?!?!? You are SO on GM's payroll! Admit that and move on! What cube do you sit in there? Are you the PR director?

Those vehicles from Chrysler have some nitpicks but certainly are not wholly flawed. Where do you get that from?

And the Aztek hasn't lost money for GM.......

The PT Cruiser has sold quite well and has been a success. The Pacifica is just out of the gate after a price adjustment. Jury is still out on that. It could use more hp and less weight but is otherwise an innovative package. The Crossfire has been on sale like 2 months? Its gotten good reviews. Its only flaws are it could use more hp and its does not have 100% the same panache as the concept. But at least it doesn't have Fisher Price interior plastic.....

I'm moving on to the Cobalt. I am actually looking forward to it. Things sound like Chevy might get this one right. The Mali is a limited success. Not a category killer or any sort of class leader but a step in the right direction. The Cobalt if executed right may hit the market at the right time to be a solid success. Talk of the 170hp 2.4 motor is really good news.

logic1

You rip the Crossfire for hp. And the reason the Crossfire has low hp is it is built on an existing platform that could not accomodate better DC engines because the car was rushed to market on an older platform.

I love the Crossfire design (though I note its drag coefficient is very low). But it could have been a much better car if DC took the time to build a new platform for it.

The same with the PT Cruiser. A great, innovative interior, hindered by the fact it is built on an ageing and problematic Neon platform has prevented Chrysler from adding engine options which just may have prevented the car from dropping sales in double digits over the past two years.

You completely blast the Pacifica for its weight and its lack of HP. The Pacifica is built on a modified mini-van platform and uses existing engines. The Pacifica is a very interesting concept and makes a great looking vehicle that is simply not where it has to be to be a sales success.

If Chrysler is making money for DC, show me.

You realize the cars have flaws. Just not when you feel the need to oppose me.

corsicachevy

Logic - Do you think the Crossfire would have been a greater sales success and a more profitable vehicle had Chrysler spent the money on a new platform? I don't. The car is an unabashed stylistic statement. The car's underpinnings do not factor into its sales. As for the lack of horsepower, wouldn't the 3.2V6 in supercharged form (349hp) fit under the Crossfire's hood?

The PT Cruiser has plenty of power in turbocharged form (both low and high pressure versions). Chrysler, however, should have made the turbo engine an option starting with the vehicle's introduction.

When can consumer expect to see the Pontiac Solstice in showrooms? Where will the competition be at that time?

ateixeira

PT sales have slowed, if there is no market for those maybe GM decided not to bother. I'd still call it a success just for the attention it drew, but how can you follow up a retro design? What can you do for an encore?

The Malibu Maxx is a roomy 5 door, you might call that GM's closest response to the PT.

Don't forget Rendezvous, that competes with the Pacifica, and it came first. I'm not sure which one sells better, neither is particularly hot.

Aztec was a flop and surely lost money, but at least they built it on an existing platform, so they spent very little. The Pacifica has a dedicated platform, it is *not* built on the minivans like many people seem to think.

Crossfire was done with Mercedes' help mostly from parts bin stuff. GM's GTO will kill it in sales.

Sure, give Chrysler credit for trying, at least. Lutz will make sure GM tries, too, but that's only starting to happen now.

-juice

logic1

NAIAS. If it is a go, probably a late Fall 04 launch.

We shall have to see what price the Solstice come in. Most likely, the only competitor at price will be the Miata, as Toyota will drop the MR2 by then. The other competitors are the far more expensive Solstice, Z4 and Boxter.

At 170 hp, even a non-enhanced 2.4 litre ecotec will surpass the next generation Miata with an LS predicted to have around 160 hp. The 2.2 litre ecotec supercharged will be in the area of 220 hp, or just below the far more expensive S2000. The 2.2 litre ecotec will have more torque and probably better mpg.

GM is already playing with a turbocharged 2.4 ecotec that would match the Honda's 240 hp. Honda would have to increase the size and weight of the engine to get much more usable hp out of it. doubt it will do that.

The base Z4 currently has 184 hp. The base Boxter has 228. I doubt a base Z4 will jump too much higher in hp. Same with the Boxter. These cars' V6 engines deliver on torque but add weight.

In other words, if the Solstice platform is tight, and there is no reason to assume it will not be, the car will best its competitor on price and be very close, if not better than, more expensive competitors.

But, apparently, it would have been better to rush to market on a modified Delta platform with parts bin components.

logic1

That Chrysler did not launch the Crossfire with a larger engine, even if available, suggests to me that in the haste to come to market, the engineers did not have time to do more.

Right or wrong, the Crossfire's slow start will influence how many percieve the car.

ateixeira

Solistice could be very interesting. Pricing will be very sensitive. That's where the Pacifica bombed - content and prices were way too high for its performance level.

-juice

corsicachevy

Who needs a "larger" engine? MB currently uses a supercharged version of the same engine used in the Crossfire. It produces 349hp and an incredible amount of torque. In fact, an SLK powered by this engine can hang with a Corvette - and that is with an automatic!

What this suggests to me is that MB didn't want some lowly Chrysler showing up its premium models. Ford has the same problem with Lincoln and Jaguar.

When can we expect to see the Cobalt in showrooms? Will Honda have a new Civic ready by that time? Will the new Focus be out of the bag by then?

regfootball

the hp flaws on the pacifica and crossfire are extremely simple fixes. the basic packages of each are sound, though and don't reek of overt cheapness or rental aura.

ateixeira

True, true.

I don't see Mercedes letting them do too much with that 3.2l, at least until the new SLK arrives.

Pacifica could go on a diet. If they use more power it'll get 12/14 mpg like the Durango.

Any how, they are at least interesting. I'm sure Lutz will push for interesting GM concepts, if they can sort them out in time. He is breaking up a big bureaucracy.

-juice

logic1

spent as much time on the weight of the vehicle as the hp. Reducing weight after the platform is set is not an easy thing to do.

regfootball

well considering the SSR roadster weighs as much as the pacifica, I'd consider the added utility of the Pacifica a definite advantage....:)

ateixeira

SSR is a porker. They used the Trailblazer platform, which is just insane.

I actually saw one up close when I went to the Chevy Malibu intro event. The look is cool, it has a LOT of presence. More so than the PT.

But the appeal of the PT was it's affordability. The SSR will run $40 grand. That's just crazy.

Also, this pre-production model had condensation in the head lamp. And the fuel door wasn't the locking type.

Oddly, they have a Chevy Aveo next to it, and that had a locking fuel door, not to mention tighter build quality.

So maybe Chevy is shifting its attention to small cars, if so that bodes well for the Cobalt.

-juice

corsicachevy

Who at GM thought it would be a good idea to make a vehicle that looks like a hot rod pick up but goes like a 2004 Malibu?

I fear that the SSR is going to suffer from Marauderitis - possessing a body that writes checks its engine and chasis can't cash.

Does anybody know when the Cobalt will hit the showrooms? Do we have to wait until 05'?

ateixeira

The V6 'bu is actually pretty fast. C&D clocked 60 at 7.9 seconds, and it feels every bit that fast. The pushrod engine is torquey, go try one.

SSR has more power but a LOT more weight to pull around.

-juice

logic1

I heard late Summer/earlt Fall '04.

Difference between the SSR and the Pacifica is one is meant to be a practical family hauler, the other, a lavish toy.

I think the Equinox will offer practical advantages of a PT, with somewhat better fuel economy and power.