Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

24567214

Comments

  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    Hope it doesn't creep up in price too much.
  • nygregnygreg Posts: 1,936
    estimates $25-$29K for the turbo versions. My bet it will be closer to $25-$26K. H6=250Hp, H4T=250HP, H4=165HP.

    Greg
  • nematodenematode Posts: 448
    but the Legacy GT sedan will set he bench mark for pricing the line. The current GT version is easy to find in Missouri for under $24k. A couple of dealers are even close to $23k!!!!. I'm not sure what the MSRP will be but my guess is that it will sell for $26-27k price after the "rush". Its got more power and seems better in every way.....thats worth $2-3k.

    To crack $30-35k and hold that price point as a higher volume (big profit) option it needs to show up with 280-300hp. Its going to need AWD AND big power to set it apart from the pack. It worked for the WRX and it would work for the GT.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I really hope the L comes in at around $20k street price, for starters. Then the GT at around $25k, and finally the STi in the $30k+ arena.

    That's the best way to get volume out of it.

    -juice
  • markjennmarkjenn Posts: 1,142
    C&D had a writeup about the new Legacy in the current issue. If I recall correctly, they were saying that the base 2.5 H4 would probably go for low- to mid-20's, the turbo a few thousand above this and the H6 around $30K.

    - Mark
  • lark6lark6 Posts: 2,565
    I'm reading this two-page spread (one-page review, one-page photo) over lunch as I write. Automobile claims the powerplants will initially be the good old Phase II EJ25 base, current H6 line-topper, to be followed shortly thereafter by the 2.5 l WRX STi engine detuned to "about 250 hp." Five-speed manuals and 5EAT automatics will be offered. Without quoting extensively, the article states that the car's "build quality is beyond reproach" but that styling is too bland and derivative - "the perfect getaway car." The author states that Subaru styling gambles (e.g., XT and SVX) resulted in "bizarre cars...purchased in small numbers by equally bizarre engineering enthusiasts."

    The model pictured and test driven is a 2.0 GT Spec B, a JDM version powered by a (you guessed it) 276 hp version of the home-market WRX's 2.0 l four. Claimed 0-60 for this car is 6.3 sec; estimated price $US 29K.

    Ed
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    Sounds like a good price to pay for a Subaru Legacy L.
  • it sounds like they will price the US release 05 Legacy GT wagon almost identical to the Forester XT, which will make my decision between the two a lot harder. Truth be told, its a lot easier loading a canoe on top a shorter wagon, although the Forester is already a great improvement over a mid size SUV in that regard. Dang...I may have to sell my wife's A6 and get one of each.
    Mark
  • otis123otis123 Posts: 439
    Doesn't the Outback look much better with a dark bottom. Subaru, make all the Outback colors available in monotone!!

    http://www.subaru.de/Seiten/Showroom/Legacy/FLegOut.htm (Subaru Germany H6 model)

    :-)

    Ralph
  • nematodenematode Posts: 448
    I just dont understand why Subaru is sticking the H6 into the GT. If they really want 3 engine configurations for the Legacy they can go 2.5H4 "base", 2.5H4t 225hp "L", and 2.5H4T 300hp "GT". They can even use the same basic transmissions they already have (autos, 5spd, and 6spd). I'm not sure why they just dont keep the H6 as an OB only motor and tune it for more low end grunt. That would be a nice way to really set the OB apart and keep that turo performance image for the Legacy. OB = smooth low end grunt. Legacy = screaming turbo power.

    Additional thoughts:
    1) Are they going to offer a manual with the H6 in the GT? If they go with the H6 in the GT, which I dont think they should do, and they dont offer a manual it will be a huge mistake.
    2) Is the new H6 really going to be 3.5L and 250hp? I really dont like the current H6 3.0 and my feeling is that the 2.5t 225hp outperforms it quite readily is most aspects. I hope the H6 3.5 is better.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Nice der Outback! ;-)

    nematode: I agree. The H6 should be Outback exclusive, maybe even its only engine.

    The Legacy line should have the 2.5l and 2.5T. The STi can get a blown H6, that's so low volume anyway.

    -juice
  • markjennmarkjenn Posts: 1,142
    All of Subaru's primary compeition for the higher end Legacy wagons will have six-cylinder options (Passat, A4, Mazda 6, 325iT, etc.). To not have a six-cyl motor in this segment would be be fatal.

    - Mark
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I tend to disagree.

    The A4 1.8T is a 4 cylinder, and has been successful.

    Passat also has a 1.8T. Even then, it's softer than the A4 so the Outback could compete with V6 Passats.

    Subaru has 2 models, so the Legacy can take a sporty bent while the Outback goes towards luxury. Outback has traditionally handled the volume for Subaru, they thrived without a 6 cylinder for 6 years or so.

    Let the Outback continue to go after that volume, and the GT can become a speciality performance car.

    Other examples - the Acura TSX, the next Volvo V40 and V70 (5 cylinder), Mercedes C230, Saab 9-3, etc.

    If the Legacy GT can perform anything like the Forester XT, which is basically a Giant Killer, it'll be successful *and* attract a different buyer than the traditional Outback/H6 buyer.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    I don't think they have their info correct on the engines. My guess is that the H-6 will remain an Outback exclusive.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The basis of my argument is that there should be as little overlap as possible from the Legacy to the Outback.

    Think about it. The Impreza is a shortened Legacy, at least it was originally. Forester is a lifted Impreza. Baja is a Legacy Crew Cab. So basically Subaru sells one chassis architecture in this country!

    They have to differentiate the models more, a lot more. I think the Outback and H6 images mesh together perfectly, it should even be standard.

    The WRX succeeded. The Forester XT helped Subaru break a record for sales last month. Both have turbos with a 5 speed available.

    The Outback has always thrived, but the GT was like the secret noone knew about. The "fatal" comment is funny because, how many do they sell now? Hardly any, it's not like a turbo is going to hurt sales. Impreza sales are way up. The H6 did not help Outback sales, they actually went down.

    It seems counter-intuitive, but it's fact. Subaru is a niche manufacturer, so they're not expected to compete with the mainstream.

    -juice
  • sebberrysebberry Posts: 148
    The Outback should be offered:

    H6 4AT
    H6 5MT

    H6T 4AT
    H6T 5MT

    VTD standard on all models with VDC an option.

    Say, how about a turbo charger that can be turned on and off. It would be great for snow and ice driving not to have a turbocharger kick in... just a thought
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    Why? They (Subaru) has just introduced an all-new 5AT.

    Bob
  • smo615smo615 Posts: 15
    There is a new press release on Subaru's Global site concerning the 2005 Legacy to be at the Frankfurt Auto show in Sept. They list the 3.0 engine at 245hp if I am reading it right. Both the Legacy and the Outback will come with the new 3.0 engine called the 3.0R.

    I wonder how the 3.0R will compare with the 2.5 turbo to be released later. I have read 250 hp which would be strange if the 3.0R is 245hp. But maybe each engine will have different characteristics. Automobile Mag. says the the new Legacy will be out next spring, and the turbo release will be later.
  • nematodenematode Posts: 448
    Lots of people predicted this including me. The reasons I think it did not work:
    1) The current H6 is not that great. It quiet and better than the H4 but nothing special. Lacks low end grunt and it not suitable for towing.
    2) The H6 should have been standard on all the OB variants along with VDC.
    3) A manual transmission should have been made available from the start. This would have made it one of very few SUV/hybrids with this feature. If they were going to go auto only then a 5AT should have been standard with a much lower first gear.
    4) The LL Bean and VDC models were just not a good idea from the start. $33k??? Thats $6k more than an OB Limited. The Bean would be about $3k more than the Ltd. In the end you are getting VDC, H6, and a fancy stereo for $6000. $2-2.5 perhaps but surely not $6000.

    If it were lots better than my wifes 2k OB Ltd. she would be driving the VDC now. We just looked at the VDC again because of the $2k cash back + 0% + Subaru dollars she piled up. Its definately better but not by much. Not enough take on car payments again.

    I still contend that if Subaru played their cards right he H6 in the Outback would have been a big success. The do have a much more difficult sell ahead with lots of options in the AWD wagon/SUV hybrids world from premium brand that start around $35k. I dont think they want to go there just yet.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I don't think it's the H6 so much as it is the gearing and the auto tranny itself (4 speed only, plus it hesitates). So fix the tranny first.

    Price was an issue, though.

    -juice
  • lumbarlumbar Posts: 421
    IMO Subaru's relative inflexibility with the available configurations may have hurt sales also. First, and for quite awhile, you -had- to get a Bean or VDC (I didn't want either) for an H6; now you can't get "non-Bean" leather unless you go aftermarket (still no sale for me). It seems somewhat parallel to the XT Forester issue with no MT and premium package.
  • otis123otis123 Posts: 439
    We love our 2001 LLBean with 46K miles. Flawless, except for initial warped rotors.

    Subaru upped the build quality with the H6 after some problems and bad press in the first year of the 2000 redesign. They knew they had to get it right.

    The lack of low torque kind of fits its heavy character - in a Subaru quirky kind of way....

    It's our black mini-tank... LOL...

    Ralph
  • sebberrysebberry Posts: 148
    Sorry, I did mean with a 5 speed.

    The engine itself seems like it would be good for towing. It is the rest of the drivetrain that reduces the capacity. (Europe and Austrailia models can tow 3500 lbs, but we are much more regulated here)

    I think it feels like it lacks low-end grunt because of the weight of the car.

    What I really think however, is that Subaru convert the Outback into something more along the lines of the VW Touraeg. Even if we like Subaru's for their uniqueness, I think that they have to keep up with the mainstream in order to stay competitave. Personally, I would not buy a Touraeg, or many otherr SUV's, but I would strongly consider a larger Outback with more capabilities.

    Going even further out on a limb here, I would like to see a diesel offerred in the Outback. Not some light duty engine like the one featured in the Jetta TDI, but one with real grunt to further enhance towing. With the cost of fuel now, and the fact that you get better mileage with diesel (and it is cleaner) I think it would make more "trailer-pulling familly vacationers" interested in it.

    How many SUV's now are offered with a diesel? It would be a wise move.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Only the Excursion, I think.

    Isuzu might do a Rodeo replacement with the diesel.

    -juice
  • nematodenematode Posts: 448
    When compared to other $30k (MSRP) vehicles the Outback (as the VDC and Bean) draws the short straw.

    The 2 main quasi-SUV alternatives that come to mind are the Pilot and the Highlander. The actual SUV for those who need it that comes to mind is the Envoy.

    Just for comparison Subaru priced the Outback VDC above the following:

    Honda Pilot EX AWD, Leather, 3.5L 6cyl 5spd auto, 240hp. $30.5k.

    Toyota Highlander Limited AWD, 3.0L 6cyl 4spd auto, 220hp. $31k.

    GMC Envoy SLE 4WD, 4.2L 6cyc 4spd auto, 275hp. $30.8k

    The Outback "should" be priced at $29k based on whats out there.
  • otis123otis123 Posts: 439
    and that's why you shouldn't pay over invoice for an LLBean or VDC (any time of year)!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Well, that is about where the list price on the LL Bean is, maybe a grand higher.

    Subaru has lots of content, things like heated seats and 2 moonroofs, too. If you equip the others that way, it adds a few grand more.

    The VDC is about the stability control system, so really you'd have to move up to an Acura MDX (with optional features) to match it.

    -juice
  • nematodenematode Posts: 448
    for something like $700. Its a "stand alone" option our local dealers dont really keep them on lots because I'm told that most people will not pay for it. They will pay for other things like larger engine, CD player upgrades, DVD, leather, appearance packages but are far less likely to pay for traction control and VSC. Even AWD is low on the lists of most car buyers. You can also get heated seats on the Highlander too as an option. I forget the cost ($300?). I dont think that the Pilot offers VSC at all but I would have to look.

    Clearly none of this applies to people who already want a Subaru. I'm sure the goal of the VDC and Bean was to push the name upsale AND get new customes into the Subaru line. Its why I thought Subaru should have made the H6 and VDC standard. It would have been great for the people who already know the value of AWD and VDC. It would also allow new customers to get into an Outback with a H6 for $25k instead of $30K+. In the end I think it would have made the Subaru faithful happy and other buyers far less likely to balk at the price.

    The content level in the VDC is nice BUT the others I mentioned have more room (even 3rd row in the Pilot), more options (like NAV/DVD if you want them, 6cyc w/o high cost options), tow more, and have more power (not better performance). Lets put it this way: They do more things the VDC cannot for less money if you want.
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    probably would have a turbocharged 2.5 for the L and a base 2.5 for whatever they stick under the L. The GT should get the H6 or a high pressure turbocharged version of the 2.5. By the way, any one know if the next Legacy will ever offer a 60/40 split fold seat back.
  • sebberrysebberry Posts: 148
    Outback really was the car that set the stage for "crossover" vehicles. Volvo, Audi and others have followed suit, but many have surpassed the Outback in terms of design, features and amenities. Don't get me wrong, I like my Outback and would probabally not choose something else if the oppertunity presented itself, but I think that Subaru needs to respond by raising the bar again. In my opinion, I think the 2005MY would have been a great time to do so with many recent competitive offerings popping up.

    Personally, I think that the Outback should not use the same frame that the Legacy does. It needs further seperation. As I posted above, a Touraeg sized Outback would be my next purchase. Heck, if Porsche jumped on the SUV bandwagon, I think Subaru would be smart to do so.

    For the true SUV haters, why not have a blend of the Touraeg and the Murano? Now that would be a stellar Outback!

    (Say, is the Subaru design team hiring?)
  • jchan, i recall reading somewhere that the 05 Legacy GT comes with power reclining and folding split reat seats. i assume they are 60/40 split with the 5 seat set up.
       Personally, i dont like power folding seats, esp in a wagon. but thats what the market demands now.
    Mark
  • Hello:

    Great forum everyone. Thanks for all the input. I currently have a 1998 Passat GLX. I was just about to buy a new Passat 4motion when I saw the info on the 2005 Legacy. The car looks very nice. I am looking for a sedan in AWD and narrowed my choices to a Volvo s60, Passat AWD and 2005 Legacy. I am around 6 2" and my wife is 5 feet nothing and we LOVE the memory seats our current GLX has. Does anyone know if the 2005 Legacy will have memory drivers seats?

    Thanks again for all the info. I am frustratingly anticipating seeing this new subaru.

    Reagrds,

    Will
  • nematodenematode Posts: 448
    While I'm making a list: Subaru need to increasing the tow rating to 4-5k lbs. Why? Even a 10' pop-up type camper is usually over 2500lbs. A nice size pop-up like the Coleman Grand Tour (that we just looked at) is between 3500-4000lbs.
  • I'm the guy whose cousin owns a dealership, good source of inside information.

    Subaru is developing a 7 passenger vehicle to compete with the likes of the BMW X5, so maybe they heard you.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    I too would like to see more towing capability (as just about everyone on this board knows).

    I'd also like to see, in regards to a towing package:

    * The self-leveling rear suspension.

    * Dual-range trannys (both manual & automatic) for aiding in pulling a boat out of the water on a steep boat ramp.

    * An electric brake control that is nicely integrated into the interior.

    * A driver-controlled brake assist of some sort (larger brakes with an extra set of on-demand calibers?), that will allow for unbraked trailers up to 3000 pounds.

    * A hitch receiver and plug that is intigrated into the rear bumper.

    I'm going to post this over in the "Suggestions for Subaru" forum too.

    Bob
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    I hope that the interior has more tan- I like that interior color!
  • zinny, a pretty thorough review at apexjapan site specifically questioned the lack of memory in otherwise very nice power adjustable drivers seat in the Legacy GT, at least the JDM release.

    i dont know if the front passenger seat has power adjustment or not. thats always been a peeve of mine and a big reason we didnt buy an OB wagon three years ago and went, instead, with an Audi A6...even our '94 Explorer has fully adjustable passenger seat, just like the driver's.

    Mark
  • ace1000ace1000 Posts: 151
    I'm considering cars to replace my 1995 Volvo 850 turbowagon, and the 2005 Legacy as well as the Forester XT are in the running. People's comments about features and preferences are making me realize how hard it will be to replace.

    A partial list of features: My Volvo tows up to 3300 lbs, has a high quality tan leather interior, three-way memory seats for both driver and passenger, dual-zone heating/AC with easy-to-use dials, more options for directing the air flow than most other cars, a stereo with big buttons and separate buttons for FM 1 & 2 and AM 1 & 2. This is important to me because my kids use FM2 and AM2 and I use FM1 and AM1, and having separate buttons rather than a sequential selector makes life a lot easier.

    The car accelerates about as well as an XT AT but gets better gas mileage. It handles much better and stops better than an XT. It is roomier than the current Legacy, and I can't imagine a Subaru being more reliable than it has been. There are a number of things I like about the Subaru models in comparison to other cars including the current Volvo models, but I wonder if I will have to give up too much even with the new Legacy. Since it looks like and runs almost like new, I may decide to keep the Volvo and make any repairs until something catastrophic happens. At that point, though, I want to be able to know what I want to replace it with.

    Maybe Subaru should offer something that Vovlo offers according to Edmunds' full test of the 1996 Volvo turbo: $250,000 to the estate of any occupant killed as the result of an accident. I never knew about this, and I'm not sure I want my family to know.
  • Thanks subewannabe. This is going tp make the choice between a Passat GLX and the subaru even harder..........hmmmmm.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    A bunch of us here are hoping (praying!) the new Legacy and Outback will match the Volvo's 3300 pound towing. If not the Legacy, certainly the Outback, since that model will more likely to see towing duty.

    Bob
  • bgabel1260bgabel1260 Posts: 135
    The current Outback is a strange beast. I bought a well-equiped base wagon and paid $20,700, which is well-within the standard Accord/Camry/Altima price range. Considering my OBW has much more cargo room, AWD and some off-road prowess and towing ability, I can view it as a bargain. At the other end of the scale, Subaru must have a much harder time pushing product. Once you hit the $30K mark your options grow exponentially because "luxury" brands come into play.

    I personally thought about getting a Limited wagon but at the same price ($27-28K) I could get an Audi A4 Avant Quattro 1.8T. It's somewhat of a different beast but the loss-leader Audi has a surprisingly long list of standard features (even if you have to sit on cloth) and Quattro is probably the best AWD system on the market.

    If people are clamoring for more towing/power I think Subaru should create a new larger model to meet these needs rather than bloat up the Outback. Remember that the Outback is the anti-SUV, featuring better handling, ride and gas mileage than your standard SUV. If you make it bigger, heavier, and more powerful then some of its "unique" market positioning is lost. I just filled up my OBW for the first time and got 21.7mpg...not too bad for a virgin engine driven in an urban environment with the A/C on all the time. I don't want to see that dip into the sub-20mpg region just so I can tow 3500 lbs.

    Although I'm probably in the minority here, I think Subaru could make the 5spd gearing a little longer. I'm going to look under my hood to see if somebody stuck in a small turbo because I am continually surprised by how much power the flat-4 provides especially down low. No, it's not sports sedan fast but it's very driveable in almost any situation I've encountered (which includes daily highway merges). There's just no way the 0-60 rating on this vehicle is 10.5 seconds. It feels like the upper 8's/lower 9's to me. Subaru could make 5th gear longer for better gas mileage because the engine turns over at about 3800rpm when you are crusing at 80mph.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Pilot doesn't offer stability control, not last time I checked. You have to move up to an MDX. In terms of content, the MDX is closer to the VDC than the Pilot is. I also think it doesn't offer a moonroof, same thing, you have to get an MDX.

    So really a Pilot only compares to the cloth/moonroof-free Outback H6.

    FWIW, One pop-up camper manufacturer actually came out with a small model under 2k lbs and they market it to Outback owners, among others.

    I'm not sure I want my family to know LOL!

    Right now, the Outback and Forester are the models that Subaru includes a harness for towing, so they expect those models to tow most often. They're also the logical choices for any towing capacity upgrades.

    -juice
  • lumbarlumbar Posts: 421
    At 2000 (auto)and 2400 (manual), there is still a fairly decent number of smaller popups that you can tow easily with the Outback (and Forester for that matter), particularly with the manual. What you're basically losing is the higher end ones.

    I think this also came up on the Forester board and the real problem IMO is SOA's refusal to make it's tow specs as high as in other countries (Australia) for the same vehicle. In some respects this isn't a matter of more power--at least up to 3000 lbs--it's only a matter of acknowledging that the capability is already there. If they did this, there would actually be few popup campers that one -couldn't- tow assuming the popup was properly equipped with brakes.

    I tend to "over-vent" on this issue, but it's really about the only issue I have with the utility of these vehicles.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    if you don't have trailer brakes, the limit is 1000 pounds not 2000 or 2400 pounds.

    That's why I want Subaru to offer some sort of braking assist as part of a tow package: Larger brakes? Extra brake calibers? Something that will allow for light unbraked trailers (under 2000 pounds) to be towed, using their full capacity. As I've said many times before, here in Maryland you won't find trailers rated under 3000 pounds with brakes, because they're not required by law. Most other states have similar laws.

    So the net result, if you follow Subaru's trailering rules, more than likely you can tow no more than 1000 pounds. For most people the 2000/2400 pound rating is bogus.

    BTW, Volvo and other brands also have similar trailer brake restrictions. It's not just Subaru.

    Bob
  • lumbarlumbar Posts: 421
    I have seen you post on this previously, but don't many pop up trailers in the 2000 lb range come standard with electric brakes now?
    Not trying to go too OT here.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    I've only looked at utility trailers. My guess is probably not—unless they're required by law in your state. Some states require trailers over 2000 pounds to have brakes. Most states are in the 3000 pound range, before brakes are required.

    Bob
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    They should make a larger model for the towing people who want to tack on a small camper. Or, take your Outback/Forester to an aftermarket conversion shop and have them install a pop-up bed that folds down onto the floor of the trunk. You'd lose some cargo space- but spend less trying to stay at the Holiday Inn. I always wonder why we can't take a Nissan Quest/Toyota Sienna/Honda Odyssey and have them install a infatable air-bed built into the car or something. I don't want a chevrolet Astro.
  • I have a 2001 LL Bean Outback and a 2003 H6 Outback Sedan. I would like to see a 5 speed auto tranny and a beefier 6 cyl engine with improved gas mileage. I would also like to have anti lock brakes that feel like they are working. The build quality of the 2003 is definitely better than the 2001, but more needs to be done- just try closing the driver or the passenger door with the window down. It sounds like tinny junk. A quieter car with less road noise and an air suspension rear that is better isolated from the frame is in order.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    That sound is just a characteristic of frameless doors. It doesn't indicate a weak structure, in fact Subies have done extremely well in side-impact testing, FWIW.

    -juice
  • Subaru and other manufacturers have proven that puting all the steel in the roof pillars instead of using some of it in non-structural narrow bands around the doors makes for a much stronger structure, since visual design preferences limit the dimension/ bulk in the overall pillar.
    Mark
Sign In or Register to comment.