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Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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Comments

  • erics6erics6 Posts: 684
    Chalet and Aliner both have pop ups that weigh under 2000 lbs. (Notice the photo of the Forester towing a Chalet on their website.) Both offer electric brakes as a popular option. I've been told that the Outback and Forester are popular vehicles to tow these campers.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Cool. That camper is bigger than the Forester! 1400 lbs, that's all?

    -juice
  • erics6erics6 Posts: 684
    Yup. You can push one by hand easy...makes fixing backing up mistakes no problem...just unhook and push (on level ground). Of course the GVWR is 2600 lbs. Takes less than a minute to pop the top and sides. The owner in the picture is a nature photographer in Washington State. Only negative to this type of pop up is you can only sleep 3-4 people max. The LTW is for 2 only. The base Aliner is even lighter.
  • I just found out about this car today. I own a 90 Legacy and may have finally found a car I'm willing to let share the garage with my car :)

    Does anyone know if the seating is more like a Legacy vs. the WRX - I'm looking for more room than the WRX.

    Also, there seems to be varying opinions on the HP - is that because they have not finished the specs on the US model?
  • from all reports on the new gen already available in japan and new zealand, the seating room is even more than current gen legacy. HP /torque ranges will depend on final engine choices in US release. right now, most car rags are saying 3.0L H6 with approx 240 hp, with more emphasis on low end grunt, and 2.5L turbo with at least 250 HP , tuned for low end torque.
    mark
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    HP numbers should wander around the 265 mark.
  • otis123otis123 Posts: 439
    The LLBean/VDC price level needs:

    Front/rear curtain bags (and 5 star crash results all around)
    Wider interior/exterior dimensions (the Outback is way too skinny)
    Memory driver seat (2 settings)
    Monochrome paint options (let's get out of the 90s color scheme)
    Less body roll (maybe the 2003 spring design took care of that).

    That's my list for me to buy another Outback next year. It is just way too competitive out there not to have these features at the 30K price mark...

    Ralph
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I agree, but I've seen LL Beans for around $26k new nowadays.

    I'd rather not have that stuff and save $4 grand, but that's me.

    -juice
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Posts: 252
    The next generation Outback and Legacy should not disappoint. Their lighter, stiffer, larger on the inside, more refined materials. 28-30K plus is going to the base price point, but that is right in there with the Nissan Hondas and Toyotas. Not to mention 5-10K less than Audi, BMW, Jag, Lexus, Infiniti, Volvo.

    The Subaru's are generally more optioned out at base. Use Edmunds and option out a Nissan or Toyota or Honda and then check the price and compare it to relatively equipped Subaru. IMHO Mazda is the only manufacture that has as good or better value for the perfomance dollar.

    The value is there for Subaru even at 28-30K +

    The performance and refinement will be there to justify the price even more with the update 2005 models.
  • cracoviancracovian Posts: 337
    The only REAL and badly needed option that I hope will be standard on all new Legacies are the side airbags... I like everything on the current Legacy (though I would not buy the GT trim or Outback - too much fluff and too expensive) but Subaru lost me as a very serious buyer a month ago when I found out that my family would be riding in the car with no side airbags for the next ten years (that's how long I'd like to keep it). It's bad enough that our 2002 Trooper doesn't have any either... We might have to go with Accord EX any minute now :-(
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    can't you just wait up for maybe another 6 months? yes, the Accord is a good choice but if you live in the snowbelt region or like good handling, you should go with the Subaru Legacy, which has standard AWD and should be here any minute too.
  • cracoviancracovian Posts: 337
    I live in the South, so AWD doesn't do much for me... but I like wagons and I like Subaru's look and handling; I also like the price of the SE model ($19K!!!) but I'm not willing to pay $3K just to get those side airbags. That's a very uncool sales trick, I don't like it and I suspect a lot of other people are not buying into this either...

    Yes, the new Subaru might get here in just a few months but it will be another year or two before they're back to sub-invoice prices...
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    as a starting point for a Subaru and I think they'll rot on the lots. Accord tops out at about 28K with V6, Leather, NAV and the Camry is in that ballpark as well. But those units are the exception - not the rule.

    I think a well equipped Legacy should not cross over the $26K line. IIRC - Inexpensive and Built to Stay That Way.
  • cracoviancracovian Posts: 337
    I compare the current SE model (auto slightly over $19K) with Accord EX (excellent 4-cylinder, no leather or nav but everything else for $20K). While we COULD argue that the new lower-shelf Legacy will be superior and will offer more than the Accord EX, the majority of consumers won't likely think so. If there's no Legacy w/ side airbags for less than $20K then it's over. I will certainly not buy that Subaru if well-built and supported Hondas are there for that much or less.
  • Remember, we have 3 differentials, not one, extra axles, a more complex drivetrain in short. That amounts for at least $1k in cost. There are other factors too, but they can make them relatively close. To me side airbags aren't a huge selling point, but they're just a nice extra safety feature. I guess others feel a little different about them. Just remember with pricing though, add an extra ~$1k for AWD. If the Accord is 18, the Legacy should be about 19 with a similar set, though not all things are equal. That would be a sedan, wagons are marked more on the Legacy end.
  • bgabel1260bgabel1260 Posts: 135
    I experienced some buyer's remorse for not getting the Limited package with the side airbags but I've realized that I'm not missing out on much. The side airbags on the current Legacy models are of the torso-covering variety and these don't offer maximum protection. What you really want are airbags that protect the head and these need to deploy from the headliner or the top of the seat. I haven't heard what kind of side airbags Subaru plans to use in the 2005 redesign but they would be wise to graduate up from their current design.
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    A well Equipped L model with an Automatic and side airbags (to please government regulators and the IIHS) should be no more than $21K at the most. An Accord LX goes for $20,920 for side airbags, so $21-$22K should be fine for the Legacy L, or maybe a base L Special Edition version.
  • cracoviancracovian Posts: 337
    ...and that's cool - for me and others they are. I don't want to drive the old beat-up Sub without them in 2012. I'll wait and I'm glad the next generation will have them - now if they can sell it for under 20K they'll have themselves a deal.

    Once again, the current pricing in my area from carsdirect is 19K for the SE wagon with auto and 20K for Accord EX with auto. With today's economy I don't expect things to change, even with the new model - if they do - good luck to Subaru. We're not talking about what goes into the car and its real value. We know that Subaru is more expensive to make, mainly due to Honda's economies of scale and the AWD system. Honda has worked decades to be able to charge premium for their cars and its better reputation is clearly visible in sales figures and residuals. Right now, I'm stuck in between the two and I wonder how many more people went into the dealership (not many to begin with) with cash in their pockets and left as quickly as I did.

    Quoted from carconnection today:

    IIHS: Side Airbags Cut Deaths Nearly in Half

    The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety’s latest study indicates that side-impact airbags can reduce road fatalities by as much as 45 percent in cars so equipped. The insurance industry-funded group reports that side curtain airbags are the more effective type; through data interpretation the IIHS reports that side airbags that do not protect the head, only the chest and abdomen, can still reduce deaths by ten percent. The IIHS says its study is the first of its kind for the new type of airbag, which helped some sport-utes finish well in the group’s last rollover and crash tests as well. "Before head-protecting airbags were available there was virtually nothing to prevent people's heads from being struck by intruding vehicles or rigid objects like trees and poles in serious side-impact crashes. Now we know side airbags can change this and do a good job of protecting heads," said Institute president Brian O'Neill in a release.
  • otis123otis123 Posts: 439
    Yes! I read all the research on that site and have decided my next car HAS TO HAVE side curtain air bags. Or at a bare minimum, the side torso/head bag the Forester has - front and rear.

    In the Institute's first set of side tests (small SUVs) the Forester was the only one w/ a good rating. The picture shows how the head went into the bag, not the moving crash barrier...

    If you buy a car today and plan on keeping it for 10 years (when all cars will have curtain bags) you would be foolish not to seek curtain bags as a feature. Why risk death or brain damage when a Suburban crashes into the side of your car at an intersection?? What a sad way to go...

    If Subaru doesn't put side curtain bags in their 2005 redesign (as VW has had since 2001.5!) their commitment to safety theme (passive or active) goes out the door...no matter how strong the cage is...and they won't get another $30K from me...

    Ralph
  • cracoviancracovian Posts: 337
    I also think that consumers vote with their wallets and the Americans only now started noticing real benefits of additional air bags. In Europe every decent car has six or more airbags and every CURRENT Legacy has side airbags and the top of the line one has curtains already (!!!). No one there would buy such an expensive car without them, so Subaru "has no choice" and has to satisfy those consumers. We care more for double sunroofs and leather on the steering wheel instead... how sad.

    http://www.subaru.co.uk/legacy_estate/legacy_estate_features_03my- - .htm
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I'd go even further, AWD is more like a $1500-1750 value. If you can get a Legacy for the same price as a comparable Honda, the Legacy is a better value, with its AWD.

    For the next gen, I'd like to see a little more equipment for a little more money, not a lot. You can get an L/SE wagon for $19k, $20k with auto today. $1-2k more than that (street price) with the stuff being asked for here would be reasonable.

    And 180hp with AVCS, please.

    -juice
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    We need a well equipped Legacy L with a CD player and side airbags and that auto tranny for about $20,995 total cost.
  • cracoviancracovian Posts: 337
    They're not selling very well at sub 19K in my area (wagon SE with auto), so even though I *might* be willing to shell out additional 2K to get the new design along with side airbags, most other consumers won't as prices of other mainstream cars are falling. If the economy picks up then they might have a chance - otherwise it won't be no Subaru's savior...

    If they want to effectively compete, they must create a huge marketing blitz and try to sell some obvious features that other cars in this price range just don't have. Nissan did it, Mazda is getting there, and Subaru could do it too but I wouldn't get my hopes up - their big papa (GM), mgt and dealers suck... and they don't have the right budgets :-(
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    obvious features that other cars in this price range just don't have

    Like AWD! :-)

    It's true though. Match the powertrains in the Altima and Accord (240+hp), the interior of the Passat, and AWD alone would be the selling point.

    -juice
  • bgabel1260bgabel1260 Posts: 135
    Don't let the side airbags suffocate your decision. If you can get them, great, but they should not completely steer your decision. While it seems reasonable that they can reduce deaths by 45% you have to put this in perspective. The chance of getting into a life-threatening high-speed side collision is very low. You could probably do more to reduce your risk of injury by limiting exposure: driving less, driving differently, driving on less travelled roads. Learn how to use the ABS brakes. Take a defensive driving course.

    I bet there are some consumers clamoring for side airbags who also gab on their cell phones while driving, eat heart-clogging fast food and smoke cancer-causing cigarettes. I do not worry about death by side impact collision. I worry about heart disease and cancer because these are much, much more prevalent.

    If you absolutely demand side airbags are you making other life choices that reduce your risk of illness or death? Otherwise, it seems like throwing money at a problem.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I agree with bgabel1260. Side airbbags may not be worth dwelling on. I also question their efficacy. If you get hit broadside, especially in the sweetspot, even at low speeds, you'll be riding the subterranean bobsled. There is no substitute for caution at intersections... one of the grim reaper's favorite haunts.

    Also, a big danger in the broadside hit is the sedan post. Years ago I was hit broadside at an intersection with the bad guy doing about 35 mph. Luckily he hit off-center on the rear axle and my car spun more than 360 degrees. However, my head went through the side window of my coupe. If there was a sedan post there, I'm sure I would have been history.
  • cracoviancracovian Posts: 337
    I'm not just talking about me, so there's no need to try to convince me, get on a personal crusade, give me lectures or anything. In my 12-year driving history I've never had a single accident, thank God, and I fully realize the low probability of me ever needing side airbags. But... since it only cost me $220 to get them for my long-gone Corolla in '98, most of other cars cheaper than Subaru already have them, I don't plan do downgrade and put my family at risk. Knowing that they cost very little to put in (they are already available on GT, OB, and Legacies in Europe), it just leaves a sour taste in my mouth that I would have to compromise my safety because of some @ss at Subaru who decided that I have to pay a few thousand dollars more to get such a basic feature that all my recent cars have had (with the exception of the 2002 Trooper but I can forgive it). All I'm saying is that *perceptually* it puts Subaru brand in the likes of Kia, Hyundai, and Mitsubishi (Diamante does not have them either (!!!) and I wonder why they can't unload this, otherwise cool car, at 18K), basically crappy cars and always one step back. If no one thought like me, the sales would be soaring (especially at current prices) and they aren't...
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    Why do you excuse the 2002 Trooper for not having side airbags? Is it because the Toyota Highlander, the Chevrolet Tahoe, the Ford Explorer, and the Mercedes Benz ML320 have side airbags or is it because you just like SUVs that don't have side airbags but you wouldn't buy a car (Sedan or Coupe) without side airbags.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Be assured, I am not on any personal crusade against airbags. And I do think you have a valid concern with family safety. Furthermore, I think we may see a day when helmets are required--after all, they're good enough for motorcyclists, bicyclists and race-car drivers. You have to wonder why it is taking so long with passenger cars.

    Perhaps the simple answer is inconvenience. Or maybe it has something to do with the slow pace at which human intelligence evolves.

    Regardless, are YOU up to it? Will you risk looking lame at this point in time to further insure your family's safety? Having heard your rationale, I expect only one answer from you, and the next time I check this forum I am expecting to read that you have plans to equip your loved ones with helmets for riding in the car. It really is a simple issue when you think about it.

    No excuses now.
  • ace1000ace1000 Posts: 151
    Designman - You're right about wearing crash helmets. Another advantage is the number of drivers who take a look at me and then give me plenty of space. However, I'm really tired of being pulled over and taking road-side sobriety tests!
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    The Outback could spawn an extended model with a third seat. Should compete with the Pacifca and the Ford Freestyle, I guess.
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    their 7-passenger crossover is just around the corner.

    Bob
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    Subaru us bringing a 7-seat crossover? Any info?
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    Should be announced sometime within the next year or so. I'm betting we see it at the 2004 Detroit show.

    It will be larger than the Legacy, possibly powered by a 3.6 H-6, but that still a rumor at this point.

    This vehicle has been in the works for some time. Originally it was to be a joint-effort between GM and Subaru, but a over a year ago, Subaru decided to go it alone.

    The following is from an Edmunds CHAT with Mike Whelan of Subaru of America, in which I asked Mike a specific question in reference to that vehicle:

    <rsholland>: Now that the GM/Subaru SUW is dead, will Subaru plan on offering a 3-row-seat (Honda) Pilot-like vehicle on their own?

    <mike_whelan>: Bob, Subaru still plans to offer a third row 7 passenger vehicle but will do so solely on its own and rest assured, it will be a crossover type of vehicle.


    I think you can find the full CHAT transcript here at Edmunds.

    Also, if you go to Google and do a search for: "Subaru 7-passenger crossover" you will find other links that have discussions on this vehicle.

    Bob
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    If the price can be held down by Subaru and equipement levels raised.... then we have a hit!
    The comparison between Pilot, Subaru Crossover and Rendezvous should be like this.....
    Honda Pilot LX vs. Subaru L vs. Rendezvous CX
    Honda Pilot EX vs. Subaru GT vs. Rendezvous CXL
    Honda Pilot EX-NAVI vs. Subaru L.L Bean vs. Pacifica
  • otis123otis123 Posts: 439
    designman - you smashed your head through the side window of your car after being broad-sided AND you don't see the value in Subaru offering curtain bags in their 2005 Legacy re-design? It was a few years ago, but how hard did you hit your head?? :-)

    Read this 8/26/03 research article:
     http://www.highwaysafety.com/news_releases/2003/pr082603.htm

    Does anyone know for sure whether the 2005 Legacy re-design will have curtain bags or not. I need to scratch another LLBean off my short list if it doesn't have curtain bags (my 96 Honda Accord just passed 110K, and although it's in a trouble-free zone right now, it has a lot of original major components...so I'm looking to replace it in spring).

    I would be shocked if the 2005 didn't have curtain bags. The SOA executive who makes that decision might as well take the place of the dummy in the Insurance Institute's 2005 Legacy side crash test. No way would it not have at least the head/torso front bag the Forester has now....

    BTW, I live clean and mean (no dope, no cigs, beer or two a week, little red meat, Kashi cereal, fruits/veggies, spinach, broccoli, exercise, etc.) and I want EVERY chance to keep living clean and mean - no matter how low the probability of someone kissing the side of my Bean at 40mph!

    Ralph
  • wsag26wsag26 Posts: 124
    Sadly, just when i was getting excited about the 05' Legacy. The October 03' edition of MT Magazine (Motor Trend) reported that they wouldn't be a 280 horsepower V-6 for the turbo. I was just thinking about Z against Legacy. But, Japan plans to have the 250 horsepower turbo engine. Hope Subaru doesn't come up with some sucky engine again. The Outback and Legacy look like planned. Pricing shall be from as low as $21K to about $32K(probably the Gt Turbo Models) but we'll have to see the final details, which will probably be at the North American Intl. Auto Show.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    V6? V? Heavens, no!

    Boxers only! :o)

    -juice
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    Curtain Airbags are a must, the competition is offering them. (Accord, Camry)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Just a thought - the Forester makes do with side head/chest air bags. "Makes do" with a GOOD score from the IIHS side-impact tests, too.

    Those might be more cost effective.

    -juice
  • jchan2jchan2 Posts: 4,956
    will work.
  • otis123otis123 Posts: 439
    for all outboard passengers, front AND rear...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I disagree - mostly because my rear seat passengers are kids in child seats that won't benefit from them.

    Back seats are empty 90% of the time, too.

    -juice
  • I think that you will find that performance will be very good even though it is 250hp. Even though the Z looks more potent on paper, I don't believe that they will be quite so different in actuality. I am closely looking at the G35 6MT as the closest performance competitor to the Legacy, but then I have good reason to believe that Subaru has the edge. If you look at the reviews of the G35 6MT from C&D (this month?), it is barely behind the Z in skidpad, 0-60, & 1/4 mile, and it did 70-0 BETTER than the Z. Similarly, the brakes on this Legacy are said to be absolutely outstanding. As further example of the Legacy's ability (JDM +30hp, but not as strong torque curve as a 2.5L), Japan's Best Motoring series just raced the GT-B wagons , 5MT and auto, against the Audi RS6 Avant and Toyota Caldina around the Tsukuba circuit for 3 laps. Guess who won. The Legacy 5MT. Every single lap. This is a tighter course that favors overall balance of acceleration/handling as opposed to long straights.

    If the restricted 250hp is a problem, just get the ECU reflashed once the tuners get ahold of it. The restricted output should mean that those extra 30 horses will be really easy to get back and grow from there. Vishnu's first attempt has the STi Impreza at around 370hp w/ turbo back exhaust and ECu alone. If the Legacy can get the same sized turbo, I don't see any reason why similar numbers can't be made from the same mods (maybe 350hp). It will cost you much more to get to the same level in the Z. However, a carbon fiber driveshaft would be GREAT!
  • I think that you will find that performance will be very good even though it is 250hp. Even though the Z looks more potent on paper, I don't believe that they will be quite so different in actuality. I am closely looking at the G35 6MT as the closest performance competitor to the Legacy, but then I have good reason to believe that Subaru has the edge. If you look at the reviews of the G35 6MT from C&D (this month?), it is barely behind the Z in skidpad, 0-60, & 1/4 mile, and it did 70-0 BETTER than the Z. Similarly, the brakes on this Legacy are said to be absolutely outstanding. As further example of the Legacy's ability (JDM +30hp, but not as strong torque curve as a 2.5L), Japan's Best Motoring series just raced the GT-B wagons , 5MT and auto, against the Audi RS6 Avant and Toyota Caldina around the Tsukuba circuit for 3 laps. Guess who won. The Legacy 5MT. Every single lap. This is a tighter course that favors overall balance of acceleration/handling as opposed to long straights.

    If the restricted 250hp is a problem, just get the ECU reflashed once the tuners get ahold of it. The restricted output should mean that those extra 30 horses will be really easy to get back and grow from there. Vishnu's first attempt has the STi Impreza at around 370hp w/ turbo back exhaust and ECu alone. If the Legacy can get the same sized turbo, I don't see any reason why similar numbers can't be made from the same mods (maybe 350hp). It will cost you much more to get to the same level in the Z. However, a carbon fiber driveshaft would be GREAT!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Forester XT outran the Nissan 350Z Touring. Why not? It may come down to what gearing they use.

    -juice
  • http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_cod- e=reviews&loc_code=index&content_code=04640159

    Every little tidbit just keeps me salivating.

    '04 Forester X, XS, or '05 Legacy wagon or '05 Outback wagon? 10-15 year commuter and family car wanted. Sometimes think about CR-V or TDi Passat wagon. Thoughts and ideas?
  • wsag26wsag26 Posts: 124
    I thought it looked like a Z competitor, but I guess we'll just have to see when it comes out. I think the next-gen Legacy will get the buzz like an Altima, because it is something big for the little money and it should do good. Let's just see how they can do with there lower engines, being that the quality models. I like it, and maybe I should've waited to get my car after all....
  • subearusubearu Posts: 3,613
    hmmm, that is something I've never seen before. Interesting...

    -Brian
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