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And actually that's why I posted it. I have a feeling at least someone from Subaru surfs these boards and keeps an eye on common complaints. No I haven't seen it in person but again will it make you feel better if I feel the same afterwards? I doubt it, you and others will still feel I'm grasping at straws. And the brakes are an issue because the base model will most likely be ignored (just like I haven't seen a professional review on the Mazda3 2.0 brakes). Yeah the limited will weigh a little more than the base model but they must be trying really hard to keep the price down when they simply don't use the same discs on the base model. What's another couple of hundred bucks on a $22k car to have a leather-wrapped steering wheel and/or the larger discs? They did this because they figured anyone buying the base model will not care and I'm sure that's true. But these are a concern of mine so I felt I would say it.
I'm already paying for the AWD I don't want. So why do I even bother looking at the car? Because of the active/passive safety of the car and the interior quality. The car in reviews seems to be fairly nimble and for its size overall offers pretty good active safety. This is why I look at the brakes. If the larger discs offer shorter braking distance then what is wrong in wanting it? Why even want side curtains? Because you never know when it might make a difference, just like the larger discs might.
This is the WHOLE reason I may want to buy a $22k car. Because of the potential safety this car may offer and also the nice interior quality. Also I've found midsize cars usually feel more refined and substantial than an economy car and I may feel the car is worth the premium price.
Without going into details, I live in a MAJOR city but there is only 2 Subaru dealers within an hour radius. I'm completely serious when I say I can't hardly remember the last time I even saw a Subaru on the street. The last one I saw, about a month ago, was an old as dirt Legacy in a parking lot. Before that, maybe a few months before that was a bug-eyed Impreza in a parking lot. Subarus are rare and I think I can tell you why. First, maybe people feel the same as me when AWD this far south isn't needed. You pay a premium price for something you don't feel you want or need. Second the interiors on Subarus leave a lot to be desired. The Legacy is the first (the Forester's isn't too bad) Subaru with a nice-looking interior. I see way more Mitsubishis, Hyundais/Kias, etc. than I do Subarus.
Subaru is in the business of making money and if enough people want NAV, HID, or whatever you better believe they'll offer it. I seriously doubt many customers agree with my bizarre list but I'll throw it out there anyway. You never know.
Sorry for the long post everyone.
Everybody has their own hot buttons, which is why there are so many choices out there. If one car doesn't work for you, find another that does.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Edmunds First drive was right on in comparing to the VW Passat. Our Colorado Springs dealer is also a VW dealer which makes it easy to sit in the Passat then walk a few feet across the showroom and sit in the 2005 Outback. I used to be really discouraged with Subarus interiors when comparing the two. I now feel the Outback is right even with the Passat in this category. Of course, the Outback can go many places I would never venture with a Passat.
Subaru only offers the taupe on the top-of the-line Legacy? Makes no sense to me. I see plenty of white cars with beige interiors here so some people apparently like beige interiors. I'm trying to be open-minded about the black interior but I have a feeling in the end it may be one of those things that keep me from wanting the car. The Outback has a beige cloth interior, how much could it possibly cost to offer it in the Legacy as well?
A competitor would be like the TSX - Nav, HIDs, Engine Immobilizer (I think), good brake size, Stereo. Starting price about the same as the Legacy GT.
Disadvantage - FWD, 200 hp.
Legacy GT - 250 hp, 0-60 approx. 2 secs. faster, AWD, tighter suspension (have not test-driven yet, but will virtually guarentee it from what I have read of the two vehicles).
Take your pick - luxury with some performance - TSX
Peformance with some luxury - Legacy GT Limited
I believe both cars will be close in size and weight.
I could bring in the TL, but then the TL will be more expensive, have more power, but cost more, and is still FWD, and probably not as fast.
There are rumors that an AWD TL will come out down the pipeline, but who knows when and what price?
There is the Audi A4 and A6, but you either get a bloated and anemic A4 1.8t that is not as feature laden as the Subi, or you spend well into the mid and upper 30s to low 40s.
BMW has yet to implement its excellent AWD system on its 3-series sedans and coupes, and will be well over $30K when it does.
Hmmm, maybe the Chrysler 300M? With a decent engine and AWD, expect it to be well over $30K as well.
Maybe when Mazda does it with its 6? Unfortunately, question the performance with a low torque engine (V6 - 192 lbs-ft.).
For AWD (and features growing), Sub IS where it at.
FYI... the 300M is the prior generation 300. The NEW 300 is 300 for 6 cyl and 300C for the HEMI. Rumors have the 300C AWD coming in at $30k... we'll see!
Keep something in mind - you can't get most competitors in a wagon body style (only Passat and Mazda6), and 93% of Outbacks are wagons. I'm not sure about Legacys, but I'd bet most of those are wagons, too.
The other thing is AWD, VW and Audi have it, but not many others do. G35x and 325xi are easily a step or two up in price. If anything it's more likely that a G35x intender would step down and save money, vs. a Subaru losing a Legacy shopper to those much pricier alternatives.
Yeah, we nit pick, it's human nature. So let's, shall we?
TSX: No AWD. Lacks torque. No wagon.
Mazda6: No AWD. No folding mirrors. No toe room under seats. Rust, sorry, "staining" on doors. Lacks torque at low rpm.
Accord V6: no 5 speed on sedan. No AWD. No wagon. Industry's worst warranty (shortest for powertrain plus no roadside assistance).
Passat 4Mo: expensive. Unproven reliability.
G35x: very expensive. No manual tranny with AWD!
BMW 325xi: underpowered, overpriced.
So nobody's perfect.
Look at it this way: it would be easy for Subaru to address the lack of a Nav system (in fact it's due in 2006), but what would it take for Acura to give the TSX a big boost in torque plus AWD? They're farther from the target.
Who is closer to the ideal car?
From Subaru you can get a wagon with turbo, 5MT, AWD, heated seats, and curtain air bags. Leather and a huge moonroof if you please.
That's pretty close to ideal, folks!
-juice
"So nobody's perfect"
To me performance is the main selling point and that's where the GT excels. Show me a sports sedan that can compete with the GT for the price. Hell show me an AWD sports sedan under 40K that can top the GT in all around performance. Yea, that's right .. there's nothing out there. Like I've said before, if your looking for more fluffy features then go settle with a TSX or TL but the ironic thing is I'll see you on the Acura boards whining about FWD and no torque but you can show off your nifty Bluetooth phone features right? I can't wait for some new GT owners in the coming weeks so we can listen to driving impressions rather than all this moaning and groaning ..
- I will believe it when I see it.
For RWD with Sunroof and side airbags (need to get rear-parking assist and 18" tires), the INVOICE is over $32K!!
Expect more like +$35K for AWD.
Plus the thing is HUGE!!!
BTW, no manual for the 300C.
1. Legacy GT
2. G35
3. 330i
4. s60R
I'm pretty much set on my first choice unless the refreshed 2005 g35 comes in with some outstanding features.
Check that - can get an Imprezza STi, get a $1000 stereo system, put in leather and a sun-roof, and have money left over. ;-)
Dodge Magnum sneaks in at under $30k, odd that the wagon is cheaper but it has fewer features. Still, add AWD and a few options and you'll hit mid $30s easily.
But that's a different type of product, big and brutish, not apex-carving like the smaller and sportier Legacy/TSX/Mazda6.
The 2005 STi now gets a stereo, FWIW, you wouldn't even have to add that.
S60R could be added to my list, shall we? It's very nice but is perhaps overweight, costs more, and you're more likely to have electrical gremlins.
S4 Avant might be as close as you'll get, if Audi would toss in a $15,000 rebate. Or maybe if Subaru built an STi wagon.
But people would still call those small. Still not perfect....
-juice
Would probably rather go with the G35X or the S60R. More agile, better gas mileage, better handling.
It's kind of funny you mention that. The one thing that is keeping me out of the G35X is the fact that it is rated at 17MPG in the city. The city rating is what I seem to get on my vehicles with my suburban commuting. That is something that I am against in principle. I can't see buying a G35X rated at 17MPG on premium fuel. To me that is comparable to 15 MPG on regular (cost wise) and that is gas guzzler territory in my opinion.
Call me cheap, but I just can't seem to get over those numbers when the Subaru's are available.
* 210+ HP (depending on weight)
* mpg in the 20s
* wagon
* 5MT or 6MT
* AWD
* stability control
* side curtain air bags
* large moonroof
* cloth heated seats - yes cloth
* hose-out rubberized cargo area
* built-in dog guard
* roof rack
* slide-out luggage floor
* robotized diaper changer
OK, maybe not that last one. ;-)
TSX and Mazda6 are not closer, they're farther, from my ideal.
Subaru still missed a few, no stability control and probably not 20s mpg, at least city. I can't get cloth with a moonroof combo. Plus a few of the little things.
Still, who is closer?
Oh, under $30k street price.
-juice
Ok, let's say you are out shopping for a pair of tan pants. You can't find any, but you find this fine pair of tan shorts. But you don't want shorts. Do you buy the shorts just because they are tan? They fit part of the bill, right?
Personally, unless I am FORCED into choosing a new car from what is currently being offered, I'm not going to buy one that doesn't have everything I'm looking for.
So these folks, along with myself, are just saying "I'm not buying those tan shorts! I want tan pants, darn it! And I won't settle for anything less!"
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Would probably rather go with the G35X or the S60R. More agile, better gas mileage, better handling.
I seriously doubt their more agile considering the weight numbers
Legacy GT - 3250 (expected)
G35X - 3677
s60R - 3693
I don't think the GT will give up the handling category either. I'd say the GT would be at least on par with those heavy weights or even better.
I'm just saying, give them a break, the new Legacy is a great effort and a real contender. It may not win everyone's heart, but who will?
Subaru has about 1.1% market share. Let's say they want 1.4%, optimistically.
That means is 98.6% don't buy it, they were successful. No way can you please everyone.
If we use the pants example, Subaru came out with pants that have 2 pleats, cuffs, tan color, all weather stain resistant, all within your price range.
You wanted 3 pleats. We're talking about minor accessories they missed on. And a seamstress could add a 3rd pleat, or a Garmin portable GPS, perhaps.
So yes, I'd still buy the pants!
-juice
Isn't the '05 Legacy GT also rated at 17 mpg in the city?
The Legacy is more slippery so it might do slightly better, but not much.
But the Legacy will be much quicker, especially at altitude.
The Forester XT not only outruns the FX35, it also outruns the FX45!
-juice
Suck. I kind of naively assumed they would be about 20MPG.
The 2.5i models get 22/30, not bad. The H6 will also be more fuel efficient than the turbos due to much taller gearing.
-juice
It's interesting how they note the small size of the backseat. Yet the interior width is very close to all the midsize sedans. Subaru does need to come up with a larger platform car. it's a "tweener' size. But Asian and Europe restrictions be damned, American butts are getting bigger.;-)
Overall very encouraging for the Subie fans.
I just don't consider it "whining" or "moaning and groaning" or whatever other derogatory remark can be attached to what I think are legitimate statements of disappointment. I do, however, think its a matter of getting it out there and moving on. Like you said, its done, there's no changing it (this year). I stated my disappointment once, I think, a while back, and that's it. Not much more can be done about it.
I don't intend to be defensive, I just think some constructive criticism from those buyers Subaru has not won over completely yet is a good thing and would hate to see it stifled.
sorry, juice, didn't really direct that "animosity" comment towards you. It was more towards those couple of posts that seemed written to demean those who didn't think this car was the 2nd coming.
by the way, i enjoyed the pants analogy. Ya know, though, I tried those aftermarket pleats. Its just not the same.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
However, note that sportier entries like the TSX and Mazda6 are also smallish. The Altima may be the only big/sporty model but it has its own set of drawbacks.
Accord and Camry are notably roomier, but they're just not sporty. That might hurt the base Legacy 2.5i, but not the GT. If you get a turbo, you want the full sporting package, me thinks.
The Outback XT will compare favorably with the Volvo XC70 and the Audi allroad quattro 2.7T, especially on price.
-juice
I love aftermarket stuff, as you may know. Our 2002 Legacy has one single big moonroof. My 1998 Forester has too many aftermarket upgrades to list.
Even my 1993 Miata has a non-OE top (Robbins).
I'm of the opinion that the aftermarket can, in some circumstances, come up with even better than OE stuff. Garmin does GPS, I think the little Palm unit they sell is nifty. We got one as a departing gift for our Director and I was checking it out - very impressive. Voice commands and all for about $600, plus someone like me could use it in all 3 cars (go price that!).
<rant warning, skip this if you're sensitive>
But I don't need to ask anyone for directions, I mean, men that are men know where they are and never get lost, right? Isn't NAV like admitting you're lost all the time? Where's your ego? I mean, c'mon, we're SUPPOSED to get lost and pretend we're not. Gimme a compass and a paper map and I know exactly where I am. ;-)
<end rant>
-juice
Would probably rather go with the G35X or the S60R. More agile, better gas mileage, better handling.
I seriously doubt their more agile considering the weight numbers"
- I was comparing having to spend $35K+ on a 300C vs. competitors not the Legacy GT. These cars are more agile, get better gas mileage, and handle better than a 300C AWD.
the 300C is rated at 17/24 mpg in RWD format, and records 0.77gs on the skid pad (agressive stability control). Per Car and Driver.
I was just saying that the 300C AWD is no comparison to the Legacy GT due to weight/gas mileage/handling/agility/price. Acceleration will probably be similiar.
I think the difference is that the Legacy GT would need to do a clutch drop, while the 300C would not.
For the record, I think the wishlists are great. Consumer feedback is a wonderful way to find out what potential buyers are looking for.
Cheers!
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Sedans and Wagons
Legacy - 2.5i - Manual - 23/30 - combined est. 25
Legacy - 2.5i Sportshift - 22/30 - comb. est. 25
2.5 GT MT5 - 19/25 - comb. estimate - 21
2.5 GT 5EAT Sportshift 19/25 - comb. est. - 21
Limited's the same.
Outback
2.5i Manual - 23/28 - combined est. 25
2.5i 4EAT Sportshift - 22/28 - comb. est. 25
3.0 Ltd. - VDC - 5EAT - 19/25 - comb. est. 22
I have more details if you want. Just say which and I'll post it - -
Patti
2.5i Ltd. Sedan 3265/3310
2.5 GT Sedan 3300/3365
" " "" Limited 3365/3435
Wagon: 2.5i 3255/3300
2.5i Ltd - 3335/3380
More if needed.
Patti
The good news is this may open the door for more diesels once the sulphur is lowered. The European Accord (TSX) with diesel is rated 35mpg in the city and 53mpg on the highway, with a combined driving rating of 45mpg. This is in US MPG figures. Diesels aren't for everyone, the horsepower is only 138 at 4,000rpm but typical with diesels has a massive 245 foot pounds at 2000rpm.
Obviously a smaller diesel engine and/or smaller car should pull even better numbers. On top of that the Accord diesel STARTS at a weight of 3247 pounds. Higher trims and wagons weigh even more. Impressive numbers for such a heavy car.
I would assume if an AWD 300C was made it would probably have a gas guzzler tax on it.
2.5i Ltd /Wagon 3365/3410
2.5XT Ltd. Wagon - 3415/3480
VDC 3630
LLBean 3600
Again - that should give you a general feel for it. If you need something specific - just say the word and I'll post it!
Patti
Front seats are awesome and comfortable. If you think the S60R's AWD is going to be impressive, think again. This car is FWD bias, at all time until slippage occurs and it does not split 50/50 either. I did a writeup on it at nasioc awhile back. IF you're interested I can just copy and paste it here.
It's nice... but it's not as impressive.
Well, I test drove the 300C today, by myself ;-)
This car is truely amazing. You don't feel the MDS and the ESP is everything the reviews claim. I can deal with the 17/25 MPG... on an 5.7L engine, that's impressive.
Patti
Patti
Bob
Patti