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Lexus GS 300/GS 430



  • I agree, this is the best Lexus could come up with, after 7 (!) years of the current GS? How long have the "concept" pictures of the 2006 GS been out? Over a year now I'm pretty sure. All this time of trying to excite the market, and frankly a pretty blah end.


    Hey, I'm a Lexus fan. I have a 2001 GS300 right now. But I'm disapointed Lexus didn't do more. I mean, where's the sport side of the coin? Not a sport package in sight, for jiminy sake!


    So after 7 years of Lexus advancement, they give you 25 more HP and one extra gear in the trans from the original 1998 GS300 FROM SEVEN YEARS AGO. And from the 1998 GS400, they give you the SAME HP as then and an extra gear. This, while the competitive makes have been running a HP war that makes the 1960's look like a joke. Consider the Honda Accord, the poster child for vanilla practical transporation, gained 20% more power over the same span of years.


    I really wanted to like this GS and stay in the Lexus camp. Looks like I have to at least strongly consider the M. Oh well, they take a Lexus on trade, don't they?
  • alpha, granted we don't have reviews of the lexus yet. And to be fair, I haven't been able to see both cars in person yet. So I am trying to keep an open mind.


    I guess I'm just bummed that after working on a new GS since 1998 this is the most competitive Lexus thought they had to be. It just doesn't seem to be that special of a car for nearly $50 large. Maybe a test drive would surprise me?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Simpson: Good points. Measly changes after 7+ years for a lotta $$$....


    I have seen the 06 GS, but not the M. From pics tho', the M is not that much better looking than the GS. I'd describe the GS as OK style-wise, so you can extrapolate my thoughts of the M styling. Infiniti won't win any styling war vs Lexus since there isn't a single Infiniti I can describe as attractive, altho' the G is the closest to being attractive and is the best-styled of the bunch, imo.
  • jfzjfz Posts: 45
    At the price of mid 40s for the base GS300 and high 50s for the loaded GS430, Lexus may have market-share problems for other marks than Infiniti and BMW. The 2005 Avalon and LS430 will look very attractive at each end of the price range.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Just so you know, the Lexus RX has gained an awesome 10hp since 1998. Lexus isnt having any trouble selling them, despite the fact that the FX45, X5 4.4, and Cayenne have gobs more power. I dont think hp and torque is the first thing that Lexus shoppers really look at. The LS hardly has the most power in its class as well, but again, Lexus isnt having problems. I'm going to wait and see what the press thinks of the production car.
  • News

    Lexus learns from BMW example, plans to make more changes, more often to lineup

    MARK RECHTIN | Automotive News

    Posted Date: 2/2/05

    PALM SPRINGS, Calif. -- Lexus executives are admitting they can learn something from BMW.


    Typically, when Lexus redesigns a vehicle, it makes changes to the sheet metal and upgrades the engine simultaneously. BMW, on the other hand, alternates the timing of sheet metal and powertrain changes. That way, there always is something relatively new about the vehicle.


    Lexus executives have taken note of this approach and will apply it where possible, said Lexus General Manager Denny Clements at a press event here.


    "We don't need to do everything at once," Clements said. "We should have something newsworthy every year, and not just the paint color and headliner."


    The new approach will be applied first to the redesigned 2006 Lexus GS sedan. At launch, it will use a carryover 4.3-liter V-8 engine, as well as a new 3.0-liter V-6 base engine. But Toyota has applied for trademarks for the names "GS 460" and "GS 350," which could indicate midcycle displacement increases.


    "We want to keep our cars relevant, fresh and exciting, not just alive," said Andrew Coetzee, vice president of product planning for Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. "We are not going to let our powertrains just sit on the shelf."


    The changes may not happen at typical times, either. In the case of the ES 330 sedan, Lexus waited just 18 months from the launch of the ES 300 to replace the engine.


    Lexus also is looking at off-the-shelf technology to add every model year.


    Said Clements: "If I can get a five-speed automatic up to a six-speed or can get all-wheel drive or a derivative, then I'll get it."
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Somebody really didn't handle the PR right on this. The GS350 and GS460 should have never been mentioned by anyone at Lexus, it could have GS buyers passing on the "new" GS300/430s to wait for the updated models. If they're going to take a page out of BMW's playbook they need to see how they keep engine developments quiet until at least they're close to making the actual changes. Didn't the head guy mention the GS350 and GS460 the other day at some convention or meeting like they're coming this spring?


  • cove148cove148 Posts: 117
    I keep trying to fall for the new RL or GS300, but one picture keeps coming into my mind is sitting at a stop sign next to Grandpa in his $26K new avalon and knowing he can beat me to 60. Is there a pill I can take for this?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Yes, take one dose of M35 sport, and wax him.
  • cove148cove148 Posts: 117
    Are you sure that will work? Both have the same size engine and identical HP.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    It will. MT ran the M35 from 0-60 in 6.3 seconds, which should be at least a good half tick faster than the '05 Avalon.
  • I couldn't agree with you more. Why would anyone purchase an overpriced GS300 when another engine will be out within 1-2 years.

    I think initial sales will be strong for the people that have to have it first, but once that initial euphoria dies down sales should be flat at best. When an educated consumer does his homework and realizes that the change to the engines will drastically hurt resale value, what would be the point.

    Look at the 04/05 GS it is worth nothing, most educated shoppers knew a redesigned GS would be out soon and dealers had to discount to below invoice price just to move the cars off of the lots. My question is what price will the GS300 be selling at when the engine is replaced with the more powerful one? In my opinion Lexus made a huge mistake in both raising prices too much, and letting consumers know that the "newly redesigned" car will shortly be old school.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Also, it's one thing if the GS350 and the GS460 will be setting a new standard in terms of power. But they won't be. They will merely be matching what is already offered from other manufacturers in terms of power.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Mercedes seems to think that people will buy the all new S-class when a new DOHC, direct injection 4-valve V8 will be out probably a year after launch. Its hard to say how the public will react at this point.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Toyota claims 6.6 for the new Avalon.


  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Well.. how fast can the Grandpa stab the gas pedal?
  • glenfordglenford Posts: 138
    I just wedge my cane between the pedal and the seat.
  • although this doesn't have anything to do with the 2006 GS...I was wondering if anyone knows the 0-60 accelerations of the honda pilot, toyota highlander, and acura mdx...I would like to compare them to that of the RX330 which is about 7.7 or 7.8
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Hilarious !


    A 6.6s 0-60 for an Avalon ? That's better than what my 1999 LS with the 290hp V8 5-speed auto gets (6.9s 0-60 according to Lexus). That 3.5L engine in a lithe GS will do the low low 6s 0-60.


    All we gotta do is wait another 18 months for it to get here... Duh !
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Actually, the new Avalon weighs 50 pounds less than the new GS300 RWD.


    And when the GS300 does become the GS350, the increase in engine size will probably add at least 50 pounds, meaning that the GS350 RWD will weight at least 100 pounds more than the Avalon.


    The GS does have a 6 speed auto vs. the Avalon's 5 speed, so it does have an advantage there.
  • "Take it from me you people in these forums have no clue as to what turns on the typical Lexus buyer."


    I'm glad that you said that and I totally agree. I have a 2001 GS 300 that I absolutely love. My next car will very likely be a GS. The chance of a bigger and/or hybrid engine will definitely encourage me to wait a few more years, but I AM NOT THE TYPICAL BUYER.


    No offense to you all, but the bread and butter of Lexus' business is not from people who sit and chat on Edmunds discussion threads. It took me a while to realize this, but no matter how educated you become as an entusiast, it doesn't make you the "norm" and does not make companies market to you.
  • hfanghfang Posts: 31
    I think he makes a good point about the horsepower, 0-60 times, etc and the typical Lexus buyer. When you look at our hospital parking lot, a good 20-25% of the cars there are Lexi - and definitely more than BMW, Audi, MB, Acura, Infiniti, Toyota, Honda, etc. And from knowing many of the owners well- they could care less about horsepower and 0-60 times. Most of them don't even know how many horsepower their ES/GS/LS/RX's have. All they want is a comfortable ride, a luxurious interior, and reliability/safety + some measure of prestige. That's it. My wife wanted an RX330 simply because it looked good, rode well, was pretty luxurious, and is reliable- all for a "reasonable" price. My sister just bought an ES on Saturday- for precisely these reasons. Neither of them have any idea if the RX is faster than the MDX, ML, X5, G35, 330i, etc- and they really don't care-
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    They are all roughly similar. The Pilot\MDX have a displacement and power advantage, but the Highlander and RX are featherweights for the midsize SUV class, and that makes up for it.


    "The residuals will be so bad they won't be able to give the car away."


    As bad as the G35s? Last time I checked, its residual values are VERY strong, and they thoroughly beat IS300's. NO automaker is invincible. Lexus will continue to sell more SUVs than any other luxury maker, but performance cars is something Lexus has yet to figure out how to do.
  • hfanghfang Posts: 31
    And that's because of the cars we're talking about. I'm sure that M3, Z4, C6, Boxster, AMG and Audi S/RS owners all know every "statistic" about their cars- but that's not who the ES/LS/GS/RX are competing against. My sister (age 30) test drove the G35, TL, and 325i (about the same prices), and said, it's no contest, the ES330 is the most luxurious, comfortable and quiet, and is plenty quick. End of story. Lexus is competing for people like my sister- fairly naive about auto-technology who simply want a comfortable/fairly luxurious means of transportation. G35? "Too loud", bumpy ride. TL? "Too loud, bumpy ride, prefer wood on dash instead of aluminum". 325i? "Too expensive for what you get, too small, and RWD- not good in chicago winters. There was no consideration given to horsepower, displacement, whether there's a new engine coming out, etc-
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Lexus has never had trouble selling ES300s to women. The problem they've had is getting people who actually LIKE the 3 series and 5 series to drive a Lexus. The GS is not an ES. If it doesnt have the performance cred, it will get crushed, just like last time.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "Mercedes .BMW,Infinity are all light weights in the real world."


    LMAO. You really can't be serious. Infiniti is a lightweight maybe. But MB and BMW lightweights? Now I like Lexus products and I think MB and BMW is overpriced, but this is seriously insane.


    "They don't have any interest in the new M"


    Is this what you said when the G came out?


    ".. The residuals will be so bad they won't be able to give the car away."


    Naa... The residuals will be good. Just like the residuals for the G35 and FX, which are at or near the top of the class.


    "You will see Lexus within the next 5-7 years dominate to the point of annilation all the competition."


    Maybe, maybe not. True, Lexus SUV's sell like hotcakes. But historically, they've only had 2 successful sedans, the ES and the LS. One of the reasons that the ES sells well is b/c it really has no competition from luxury import makers. No other import luxury maker offers a cushy boat like the ES in that price range. Don't get me wrong, I like the ES. But it is what it is.


    What the LS has done is very commendable. It was able to take on the S and the 7 and outsell them.


    BTW, your "You guys know nothing, and I know everything" attitude really doesn't work around here, especially when your comments are so biased. Good zealous loyalty to Lexus though, they must like you as a salesman.
  • hfanghfang Posts: 31
    I think it's almost impossible to have someone who enjoys the 3/5 series to also want a Lexus ES or GS. Part of the enjoyment of the 330i is hearing the engine, feeling the road (a bit), having true steering feedback, rowing the gears yourself, etc, whereas the ES330 buyer probably just wants isolation, a quiet and luxurious cabin, decent performance and a solid chassis. It's almost impossible to please both types of people. That's why I've pretty much given up on the single "perfect car"- instead, bought a used GS400 last year for everyday rush hour, crappy weather driving, and looking for a used boxster/Z4/S2000 for more spirited driving. Total cost- less than a new GS430- but sure as hell more fun. I think it's the only true (but expensive) way to satisfy all needs-
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    BTW, I agree with the notion that the typical Lexus buyer doesn't care that much about hp. And I think the GS will sell pretty well... and so will the M...
  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    I completely agree. As a BMW owner, I think the Lexus wannabes are a total JOKE; however, that said, BMW has done its utmost to destroy its brand with the Bangleized styling and idiotic techno baubles. Frankly, it is really too bad that Lexus did not jump on the opportunity to stomp on BMW/Mercedes by offering a serious engine upgrade at the inception? Yeah, I hear all the stuff about being "BMW-like" and offering engine upgrades during the "refresh" years, but that is STUPID AS HELL when your immediate competition (not BMW) is kicking your butt with 3.5L engines with 40 more hp and .5sec0-60 times. As a previous poster said, most Lexus owners don't care about this stuff, but I do, and so does the majority of the "enthusiast" market. I will drive a new GS300, but would be stunned if it was that much "better" than many other marques. If Lexus offered the 3.5L up front, it would not be such a question, but I am not going to buy a car to save 1mpg. Infiniti and Mercedes will hit on the new GS300 sales numbers. Count on it.
  • But the majority of buyers in this price range are married.


       And whether the guys want to admit it or not, when it comes to buying a car as a married couple, the man WILL buy a car that his girl loves, and he likes. It is a compromise. Unless they can afford two seperate $40k cars, which is not common.


       Guys buy BMW. Girls dig Lexus. Manuals and firm leather, and dark interiors. Or wood trim, soft leather, velvety rides.


       Guys appreciate the value of a Lexus.


       But they want to DRIVE the BMW. That's all.


       Considering the fact that this forum is mostly car GUYS who don't own these cars, but would like to, the commentary reflects these DESIRES.


       In a perfect world, Lexus would make a car that plays like a BMW, but coddles and endures like a Lexus. They haven't gotten there yet.

    A man's Lexus. Not something a man will appreciate. Something a man WANTS, and feels passionate about.


       Another problem is the "Passionate pursuit" slogan remix. It brought false hope. Lexus hasn't shown a commitment to building any car that evokes passion.


       It looks like the IS is our last shot for a while.


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