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Lexus GS 300/GS 430



  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I believe it was March of 2003 C/D.


    It looks like to me that Lexus has given a name to the same things that other cars have been doing for years, tying their stability, traction and braking controls into one system. You think current cas don't have a system to integrate all these functions together? Come on now. There really isn't anything new in the GS, but they did manage to give it a fancy new name. You think the 5-Series or E-Class doesn't have all these systems tied together? Tunning is the only thing they could do different because all the hardware is right off the 5-Series (steering) and E-Class (braking) shelves.


    You really won't know what Lexus has done until it is tested by the regular publications.


  • Everybody ties the systems together. None do it well!


       In all the reviews of the Germans anyway, testers complain about the steering is too this, the brakes lack feel, the nanny said this too me and I hate that.


       Maybe Lexus decided to get around all that? It certainly isn't the Germans.


       We'll see.


  • Where the GS was left with 16" rims, and the Q45 was invited?


        I know the GS came in 3rd or 4th,andeven they bemoaned the wheel-tire package, saying the car can do so much more with real shoes on.


       I don't know. The 5, E, and A6 were ahead. The A6 was too heavy to win, but they loved it.


       The E beat the 5?


       I have that issue here........somewhere.


  • "The 2003 BMW 540 ... get outstanding performance (6.2secs 0-60) awesome handling and fun to drive, great, traditional looks, strong brand/prestige and very good reliability. It has it all."


    Bunny1 said: "I am afraid it does not have it all. The last term, reliability, is not BMW's strong suite. In fact, BMW has some of the worst ratings with the 5 and 7 series."


    You are right on recent BMW reliability and 7-series but if you check Consumer reports, April 2004 car issue, page 83, you will see that the BMW540, 2003 model gets a better than average reliability rating and a full red circle (highest rating) on 11 of 14 categories. That's why I specified the 2003 model. The 04 and the 7 series are bad.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Yeah. It seems that many so-called "first drives" are nothing more than descriptions of a new vehicle's outside and inside.

    A rather dishonest way of "scooping a story" without really having access to drive the car.

    Even one of the "consumer" automobile websites in reviewing new cars basically copies most of the wording from the previous year's reviews.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    The new GS was a beautiful silver at the Tampa Auto Show.

    Why they even bothered to show the car without allowing folks to sit in it is beyond me. The psychological implication at least for me was, they must have something to hide.
  • They want to build anticipation, make you go to the dealership and get the full treatment, the full walkaround, the salesman whjo actually KNOWS THE PRODUCT, not some flat-chested broad who goes back to the hair parlor when the show is over.


       Why buy the cow.....


  • rjlaerorjlaero Posts: 659
    Don't for the A6 4.2 Quattro.


    55k for 340hp V8, navagation, quattro all wheel drive and most every option.
  • To build anticipation, to get you to go to the dealership, get the full walkaround, the test drive, the salesman who KNOWS THE PRODUCT, not the 40 year-old secretary who's gone when the shows over. They're not selling Corollas.


       Why buy the $50k cow.....


  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Yeah. It's about time they start sending knowledgeable representatives to these auto shows. When I went to the Lexus counter, the pretty lady was too involved with a social call on her cell to pay much attention to me. When she finally finished, she rather rudely pointed to a general Lexus brochure after I attempted vainly to get her to answer a question about the new GS. Needless to say, none of the information in that brochure was useful. It's also about time that the auto makers provide comprehensive technical information brochures at these shows so if they refuse to send good people, at least they can be trained to point to a good brochure.
  • bartalk2bartalk2 Posts: 326
    Is it a "flat-chested broad" or a "40-year old secretary"?


    Though this thread is mainly inhabited by men, we ought to try to avoid sexist remarks and stick to cars. I'm sure you agree.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    The auto manufacturers populate their displays with pretty women who are also there for display-to attract men to the cars. For, in most cases when you ask one of them a technical question about the vehicle, they do not know the answer. It would be nice if the manufacturers could also "stick to the cars" as you put it. I am not defending the use of such crude sexist remarks. However, it is the auto manufacturers themselves who invite these remarks because they are flaunting "sex sells." When I asked a pretty young lady at the Lexus exhibit how many inches of legroom for the driver in the new GS which was on display, she had no idea which leads me to the question, why was she there? The answer appears obvious.
  • Anyone know what the 0-60 difference will be between the normal GS300 and AWD GS300, due to the 224 extra pounds on the AWD?
  • bartalk2bartalk2 Posts: 326
    Jones: According to the manuf. specs., the GS300 RWD is 0-60: 6.8 seconds; AWD is 6.9. The reason it's so close, despite the extra weight, is that the AWD has a higher final gear ratio for more power.


    hpowders: I agree that lots of reps and models at the car shows know little about the cars; but I've run into the same problem with men as with women. Last year at the L.A. auto show, e.g., at the Toyota and Lexus exhibits, nobody, men or women, seemed to know anything. Maybe that was because they send the "talent" to Detroit, where the big show was on at the same time. But it's a general problem.


    Granted that car manufacturers know that for men, there's no combo like cars and women. Thus the models. On the other hand, they've got male models there, too, not that there's anything wrong with that, to coin a phrase, who know just as little as the women.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Whats wrong with me? Why am I siding with Merc on all of these posts? Sorry Lexus fans, but the truth is (and this is coming from a fan of the company, NOT a German lover) that Lexus as a company, despite their success in the U.S. market, has a LONG, uphill battle to fight against the German luxury\prestige establishment.


    Infiniti has already figured out their mission, to 1. put the hurt on Acura, and 2. attack BMW directly in strategic places. Doing this long enough with more models in the future will eventually earn some respect for the Infiniti name, at which point they may be able to branch out into other markets (maybe try at Lexus again).


    Things are more difficult for Lexus. The ES, LS, and the SUVs are established and well liked by the US automarket, and they cant abandon them, or the reasons why people buy them over their competition. The problem is, the US automarket is the ONLY market where Lexus does well. Mercedes has the most prestige car sales in Japan, and good luck finding a Lexus on the street in Europe. Toyota is making gobs of money, so they really can experiment (and fail) in the sporty small and midsize segments as many times as they want. Eventually, they should be able to get it right. The '06 GS and IS should be the start of better sport cars from Lexus, but I hardly expect them to come up with world beaters on their second try. (Ok, 3rd try for GS.)
  • The US Market is the only market that matters (and the emerging China Market, which will be THE #1 market in 10 years.)!!


       If you can rock here, you can rock anywhere!


       Lexus is only 15 years old! I think the Germans have had a good enough head start.


       They set up their company to take America by storm with quality, service, and dependability. Mission accomplished! Now onto mission two.


       Make the cars more exciting, more desireable, increase the upper-crust appeal of the marque, while still maintaining the core value principle.


       This will take another 5 years or so to complete.


       THEN they can divide up the world and conquer it. You can tell lexus is still strategizing how to play in other markets.


       It would appear taking over America was easy!


       If they don't build a better 325i, I can forgive them. That's not why they're here.


       They're here to take care of us. To give us all we need. THEN they can work on all our wants.


  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "The US Market is the only market that matters" ok THATS an incredibly foolish statement. Also, Toyota made one of their very rare mistakes in choosing to not enter China when they had the chance several years ago. Now they've got to face a well entrenched VW and GM. You better believe VW will fight tooth and nail for China as well, its the only market left they actually sell cars in.


    "This will take another 5 years or so to complete."


    Sure it will, because Lexus will have a 5 year vacuum all to themselves where no other automaker will be allowed to innovate or release new products.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594


    Nothing wrong with you. You make excellent points, but I gotta disagree somewhat. So here is my take:


    Like DrFill reminded you, Lexus is only 15 years in the market, versus 116+ for MB and 80+ for BMW. These are years you cannot overcome in a short time. Lexus strategy is a grand plan. It includes Toyota becoming the WORLD #2 car seller by 2010 or earlier. How do you think Toyota will achieve this ?


    Second, hybrid technology adapted to automobiles, a trend that may very well define the next great innovation. And leading the charge is Toyota. When (if) you can make a car with a V12-performance and a V6 fuel economy, at 500bhp output, that is something outstanding ! Toyota will only improve market share going forward.


    Thirdly, Toyota has the largest stash of CASH in the auto industry. Think they wanna just sit on it ? They are a profit-making machine. Exceeded 2million cars/trucks sold in the all-important NA market FY2004. That is something !


    Toyota's name is GOLD in Japan. They dominate the Asian markets already. They made a slow start in China, but will catch up pretty soon - the power of money, influence, and prestige.


    Now compare and contrast the above with BMW and MB. These two marques seem to be regressing lately. The best distinguishing facet of today's MB is its beautiful exterior designs. Is that what a marque should be known for ? And BMW is already losing its legendary ride quality that many owners rave about, so I hear (haven't driven a late model Bimmer to attest to this).Need we mention the deleterious effects of the new exterior styling and i-drive ?


    Despite these, MB and BMW still largely retain their prestige and brand recognition, but they are more based on history than anything they are achieving lately. The most prestigious of them all - MB - even rated close to the bottom on reliability in its home country. How sad is that ! Sales are slumping as well, with MB now #4 in the US market, behind Cadillac. BMW is doing pretty well, relatively, but look threatened by Infiniti, and probably by Lexus. And if history is anything to go by, expect BMW to face more challenges from Japan in coming years. How will they respond ? Guess we'll see. Lexus already proved they can take on the mighty MB and beat them at their game. How will they do against BMW, we'll have to wait and see.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I was talking more about Lexus than Toyota. Obviously Toyota is very strong, and should continue to grow in this market, along with Chrysler, Nissan, and the Koreans, at the continued expense of GM, Ford, and VW. Honda I think is starting to slide as well.


    Lexus is still growing here, mostly taking M-B customers, but Mercedes slump may change as they introduce the new M and R classes, which I think will be big hits here. I noticed they arent offering free maintanence any more though...


    Basically what I was saying is its going to be a long hard road for Lexus to get the kind of WORLD, not US, prestige of a M-B or BMW. They need cars that can sell world wide, a consistent and easily recognized design language, and offer real performance to people who want that in a Lexus.
  • Nice stick save!


       But, uh, look.


       Toyota's got their thing together. Do they look/act worried? It's not their way, but when a conservative, non-boastful company like Cho's 'Yota says we'll have 15% of the world in 5 years, you can bet the farm on that!!


       Who looks worried to you? To Me?


       Mercedes. GM. Ford. VW.


       Who/What are they worried about?


       Anywho, thing are falling right into place for 'Yota.


       The next Tundra will double in sales by 2008, then double again in another 5-6 years. That's over 400k. That will come mostly out of Ford. I think GM will score pretty well with their next truck in 2007, too.


       Prius sales will DOUBLE THIS YEAR in the US, much less elsewhere.


       With the $3 gas prices in the rest of the world (we get a volume discount), do you think 'Yota's engine efficiency will gain acceptance?


       And they have the money, product, and tech to catch VW in China, and be at least in the Top 3 there 5-10 years from now.


       In Europe, they'll be behind the germans for a while more, with diesel so big there Germans head start even more pronounced there, with a greater emphasise on driving dynamics.


       My point is, this ship is the Queen Mary, and everyone knows it! Their just rollin' now. In 5 years, it's rock and roll!






  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Basically what I was saying is its going to be a long hard road for Lexus to get the kind of WORLD, not US, prestige of a M-B or BMW. They need cars that can sell world wide, a consistent and easily recognized design language, and offer real performance to people who want that in a Lexus


    Agree totally with you. Lexus lacks the history which time can bridge. They are starting with their own design trend (LF-S, LF-X, LF-A, LF-C). Launching the brand in Japan is the FIRST real step towards a worldwide presence. The first releases in the 06 GS, 06 IS and 07 LS will come soon enough, which may then show us how much forward progress the *new* Lexus brand will make worldwide. Hopefully, they will meet and exceed the lofty expectations WE have all placed on them.
  • I have a feeling that they will. Toyota isn't dumb. And they are rollin in the benjamins. Or yen.... meh
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    One thing I have noticed is that Lexus interiors are starting to get some real Audi-esque elegance. They've always had top notch materials in the past, but the actual execution was somewhat bland until recently. The RX330 has a fabulous interior, and the GS is a huge improvement over the old. The next LS should be an A8 style knock out.
  • I hope so.... even the interior in the new Avalon looked really good, so imagine what Lexus can do with its most expensive sedans.... also the fact that VW/Audi have taken a hit in US sales....
  • Despite you might be correct in terms of Mercedes and BMW are the best selling premium car in Japan, however, you might not be aware that many of us in Japan are beginning to fed up with all those poor ergonomics and electronic reliability in many recent made German cars especially in some areas in Japan where hot weather and high humidity levels have cause these cars suffered enormous amount of short circuits and blown fuses in it’s electrical system and my former BMW 5-series (now I drive the Celsior instead) is one of the best examples to such problem. Also if any of you know how to read Japanese, go visit some of our country’s automotive forums and look at endless number of complaints posted about these German cars and one of the comments stated by one of our forum members state the following

    "I don't care if these Germans going to release new breathtaking design sedans, I would never buy these cars if their ergonomics and electronics continues to be poor".

    To prove my point, look at how the sales for the Fuga sedan in Japan have virtually exploded after 3 months of it’s release and most of the customers have traded their BMW and Mercedes for the Fuga. Because they trust that Nissan cars are reliable cars that aren’t break down as often as the Germans, despite they fully understand they won’t have as much driving excitement as they have with the Germans. The next GS sedan too like the Fuga would going to become very popular in Japan? Why?? From my exclusive test drive offer by Mr. Sato, I can tell that despite with it’s shortcomings such as the design and it’s driving dynamics might not be as good as the Germans. But nevertheless l do very appreciate the fact the car achieve a very good balance in terms of luxury and performance with excellent ergonomics, interior atmosphere, and good performance and dynamics if you want to push this car into it’s limits. Therefore, the GS is the sedan that can meet every driver needs no matter you like to push it hard or drive it leisurely. This is the key for Lexus success and I am very confident, no matter when Toyota enter into the Chinese market, they would beat out every competition and eventually become the best motor company in the world!

    Lexus’s New Vision “DNA of Lexus: A good compromise between luxury and Performance” TV advertisement in Japan

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I love reading this about who's scared of Toyota and how Toyota is going to take over the world.


    While it is a very big advantage to have so much money at their disposal, execution of the product is even more important. Car companies that feel threatened or that are in a crisis often come out swinging and usually make some major hits when forced too. Thats all Toyota is going to do to GM, Ford, VW and MB and BMW on the luxury side. The Germans will fight to the death in Europe before they let anyone take over those markets.


    The companies that are truly in trouble are Jaguar, Mitsu, and Isuzu. I also predict Porsche will eventually need to partner up, they're just too small.


  • dl7265dl7265 Posts: 1,381
    How many buyers of 50k+ vehicle care weather a battery is in it or not ? In addition I do not have stat's but I understand that the majority of vehicles in that price class are leased. What are the long term cost/repairs for the electric engine ? if one was to make a purchase.


    It seems that a comparable Diesel model that can last into the hundreds of thousands of miles would be a more logical choice.


    From all the water cooler talk from non-car guys/gals, they already recognize that prius for example does not live up to mpg claims and I hear a lot of id just buy a "Diesel Jetta" instead.


    These are not my comments or definitive opinions but just a gage of the regular buying public....



  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The fact that the Prius generally fails to meet EPA stats is mostly the EPA's fault. Their testing methods are totally unrealistic, and because of certain specific factors, (for one, the EPA doesnt use A\C) it gives specific advantages to hybrids that arent in the real world.


    Diesel works great in Europe, but it has yet to entice the American public. The "Clean diesel" thats supposed to be available next year might help things, but its also supposed to make the price of diesel go up, and it already costs as much as premium, so again, a few VWs arent going to make much of a dent against the hybrid onslaught by Honda and Toyota coming in the next few years. VW is having enough trouble selling ANY Jettas.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Were that the case here in the US, VW (and MB) should be running away with sales in the US. But we know that is not the case, and not anytime soon either.


    The Prius' success is not just because it is a hybrid-powered car, but because it is a Toyota, with a brand recognition as well as market leadership position in hybrid technology.
  • Decent review at car connection without hard (tested) performance numbers.


    If the biggest complaint anyone has about the new GS (430 in this case) is the lateral seat support then I am content.


    By the way, does anybody know if you must get the ML system if you get the navigation option. I suspect the reverse is necessary but can you get navi sans ML?
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