Oil change/fiascos

joe3891

if the car is on the ground,in park,parking brake on and wheels chocked and you get run over it just means it was your time to go.

wtd44

I was advised by a Saturn employee that Fram supplies the cartridge filter to GM. I dreaded the first oil and filter change on my daughter's car, only to find it very easy and not messy to accomplish. The higher price at present for the cartridge is likely a reflection of supply and demand economics. As other makers get into the supply side, the price will inevitably go down. The cartridges appear to be less expensive to manufacture. Combined with ease of use in engines having the housing in a reasonable location, I'd think this modernized form of the cartridge filter might start being used by more engine manufacturers over time.

chispas

Yes ! The older 4 2200's with spin-on filters
leave a mess....right on the exhaust flex pipe.

About the best solution, wrap the flex pipe
with waste rags, aluminum foil, or something.

Otherwise it will be a long time before the
odor of burning oil will be gone.

The new GM's are BETTER for this change !

div2

There was a real moron in my home town; I would have nominated him for a Darwin award if he hadn't survived the results of his brainless actions. Anyway, the imbecile drove an ancient dilapidated Chevelle wagon. The A/T shift linkage was broken so the dipstick would start the thing, set the parking brake, crawl UNDER the car and put the tranny in gear by hand. Then he would quickly scramble back out, since the parking brake couldn't quite keep the car from creeping forward. Well, one time the idiot managed to get out from under the car but he didn't quite make it back into the car before it sideswiped a garage and pinned him between the driver's door and the jamb. His only injury was a fractured shoulder. One unfortunate consequence of his survival was the fact that he went on to sire at least three kids, thereby allowing the human gene pool to devolve at a faster rate...

driftracer

of making a trip to the junkyard and picking up some more linkage for a repair...

imidazol97

Coat hangers and duct tape. That should have fit
the mental ability level yo described...
Thanks for a good laugh this morning!

swschrad

you are SUPPOSED to use coat hangers and bend 'em to stick out the side of the car, so you open the door in traffic, lean out, grab the hanger end, and yank it to the next gear. man, what a tool that guy was! doesn't he read Mullet Monthly???

ROFL

600kgolfgt

The VW dealer where I live (Delaware) decided to use Castrol's synthetic (5w40) oil for all of their vehicles across the board. They figure it will provide benefits on two counts - 1) They probably get a bulk discount on the oil, and 2) using synthetic will reduce the incidence of engine failure due to oil-related problems. Based on what I've been reading in these discussion groups, the type of oil used varies by dealer.

driftracer

that any dealer would pony up for synthetic oil for use on every oil change. This may be what you've been told, but I really doubt it. Been in the business a long time, including time as a service manager, and the bottom line would take a HUGE hit by using synthetics instead of regular oil - just for a "feel good" for the consumer.

My point is that if you tell the consumer it's synthetic, the consumer feels good and you can have the same oil cost!

altair4

>>My point is that if you tell the consumer it's synthetic, the consumer feels good and you can have the same oil cost!<<

...And have the add'l "mark-up" profit in your pocket. Schweeet!

driftracer

don't know anyone doing that, but it seems easy enough. What consumer is going to talk to the bulk oil guy when he delivers? You can't go by the label on the tank at the dealership!

An old friend (high school buddy who never really made anything of himself) runs a Jiffy Lube near our hometown. The old manager, in order to increase the numbers on the P&L statement, had all the oil tanks pumped and refilled with SAE 30 bulk (cheapest thing on the market).

A year or so later, my buddy took over, sent samples out while checking all the tanks (supposed to be done annually) and discovered the scam. He had it all changed out, of course.

I hassled him saying they'd give him a 50 cent an hour raise for that one! Or not!

driftracer

why I use synthetic - at Wal-Mart, it's only a few bucks more, and I get to watch the guys pour Castrol Syntec right out of the bottle, not squirt it from a tank dispenser.

micweb

But I thought Jiffy Lube had to buy from Pennzoil, ergo why didn't they notice the old manager was just buying 30 weight oil (or not buying from them at all)? For the oil lube chains owned by oil companies (Jiffy Lube, for example) I thought that might help. For non-standard, more expensive oils like 5-20 I of course prefer bottled, so I know what went in.

The other fear I have (when I can't visually watch an oil change) is that if I give a mechanic bottles of oil to use, they may just fill from the bulk tank and take the "good stuff" home - something they could do, though less easily, even if you ask for empties back - if they have a container to pour the oil into.

chispas

The friend works for a landscape business and
one of his duties is some of the routine equipment
maintenance.

We were chatting while I was working on my car.

When he saw me getting ready to install a new
screw on filter, he said, "Wait a second. Take
this marks-a-lot pen and write the date on the
filter."

Only took a few moments. Now I can see what date
it was installed.

His idea might also help at quick change places. At least it might help insure the filter actually
gets changed.

altair4

you either have to have some trust, or you have to find a place to watch. I trust my dealer enough for them to actually use what I give 'em, but then, they have a window that overlooks the service area.

On the other hand, the "date-on-the-filter" thing isn't a bad idea.

chispas

We all make mistakes, made my share and am
still trying to keep from making more.

I've been around a long time, can sympathize.

Back in 1950 I drove a '47 Ford. Like Chevy,
it used what was called a torque tube from the
transmission to the differential. To pull the
transmission, you had to undo the brake lines,
unbolt the whole rear drive and roll the
transmission and rear end (connected by this
torque tube) out from underneath the car. It
was truly a "pain".

When my throw out bearing needed to be replaced,
I wisely took the car to a Ford dealership.

The day the car was scheduled for pickup, I
stopped at the dealership.

What I saw was my car, sans rear end, sitting in
a bay. The rear wheels, torque tube, rear end
and transmission were propped vertically in a
corner of the shop. The transmission was pointed
up to the sky.

During my discussion with the shop foreman I
mentioned that the way they were doing my
transmission would let all the gear lube run down
the torque tube and over-fill the rear end.

He said no.

Two days later when I picked up the car and
drove home, the first thing I did was roll
under the car on a creeper and pull the fill
plug on the rear end. It gushed. The transmission
needed lots of lube added.

I would have blown the rear wheel seals had
I driven very far and maybe ruined the transmission.

Lesson learned to be careful of dealers too.

chispas

"I thought Jiffy Lube had to buy from Pennzoil"

I've used Pennzoil chassis lube for lots of years.

Was helping a friend last summer change-out the
ball joints on his old Lincoln. From the color
of the grease around the grease fittings I could
tell that his car was using something like the
cheapest Pennzoil.

I asked him, where do you get your car greased ?

He said Jiffy Lube.

So, I asked, did you know that Jiffy Lube uses
the cheapest Pennzoil greases, there are much
better that Pennzoil makes, but they have to use
what Pennzoil "tells them to" ?

He said, "I didn't know that."

"Well, now you know."

600kgolfgt

Being a mechanic myself, I have a few friends who work at the dealership who told me (and showed me) that they use 5w-40 synthetic. So I guess you've dealt with a few unscrupulous dealers/mechanic over time that fuels your skepticism.

Now I can't speak for any other VW dealerships (other than the ones I've dealt with), but once again - the dealer I go to uses synthetic oil... So it's up to you to believe it or not...to each his own...

armtdm

Of course, their philosophy is that if your change your oil every 3000 miles (lube included if necessary)(and follow their marketing hype to do so) it makes no difference what you use for oil or grease or gear oil. Anything out there will go 3000 miles without causing a problem. So, from their point of view use the chaepest bulk lubricants you can get.

driftracer

I worked for a VW dealer in 1998-1999 and they wouldn't dream of using synthetic in bulk.

If your place does, that's great and they should be applauded.

I commented because I've worked for 4 dealer groups and none would have considered this - I'd say you've found a great place.

Of course, you may have to deal with a $995 doc fee when you buy a new car, so sales can subsidize service!

chispas

Dear Tom and Ray,

I have a nice Ford Focus, which has never given me trouble. It is my
first car, so I have tried hard to take good care of it. I follow the
manual, and take it to a quickie oil-change place (whose name I won't
mention) every 5,000 miles. Other than trying to sell me service I
don't want, it has done good work for me. Then in the faculty lounge
at lunch, I heard my co-workers talking about the terrible
experiences they had when getting their oil changed. Apparently, they
know of people who go to the same place I go, who have had their oil
drained out and then not replaced! This did not become clear to these
people until the engine totally seized up and died. They said the
quickie-lube place would take no responsibility, because nothing
could be proven. This terrifies me! Is it only an urban legend, or
does this really happen? -- April

TOM: Oh, it absolutely happens, April. Didn't the Mars lander crash a
couple of times before they got it right? And those guys were rocket
scientists. You think neighborhood mechanics don't screw up sometimes?

RAY: To be fair to Skippy Lube, it's one of those mistakes that any
shop can make. Although when speed is your stated priority, I suppose
mistakes become a bit more likely.

TOM: Here's how it happens: The mechanic drains out the oil, changes
the filter, puts the drain plug back in, takes the car down off the
lift, and then his wife calls to discuss the kid's braces. Then his
bookie stops by, wanting to be paid, and then the roach coach comes
and it's lunchtime. If he's not careful and he doesn't have a good
system, he forgets that he hasn't refilled the crankcase, and he
calls you and says "all set."

RAY: You pick up the car, drive away, and 15 minutes later you're
broken down by the side of the road and the buzzards are circling.

TOM: Now, normally in that situation, a decent shop will immediately
take responsibility, apologize and get you a new engine. Most shops
have "bonehead" insurance, which covers just these kinds of mistakes.

RAY: But I'm sure there are some sleazeballs out there who try to
wriggle out of it. Why? Maybe it's pressure to increase profits
(insurance has deductibles, and premiums go up with each claim). Or
maybe they're just not nice people, and they think they can get away
with it.

TOM: But they usually can't. If your engine seizes up due to lack of
oil, and you can show that you recently had an oil change at a repair
shop, almost any judge in small-claims court will award you a new
engine. It's usually a slam-dunk case for the consumer.

RAY: So, keep two things in mind, April. First of all, mistakes
happen, but catastrophic mistakes like this are pretty rare. And even
if you are ever a victim of such a mistake, you can hold the shop
responsible.

TOM: And second, remember to always pay attention to your oil light.
Your oil light is an emergency warning light. If it ever comes on,
pull over and shut off the engine immediately. And then check to make
sure you have your latest Skippy Lube receipt. The judge will want to
see it.

driftracer

can't these two have a real discussion without bashing someone to bring themselves up?

"Then his bookie stops by, wanting to be paid"

According to these guys, all Jiffy Lube guys are gambling addicts?

What a joke.

fish8

Tom and Ray were obvioulsy talking tongue and cheek. Any sensible person would see right through it. Their point was simply to say that mistakes happen and distractions sometimes cause these type of mistakes.....bottom line. I have been to several quick lube places and have been 100% satisfied each time.

It was just a joke...

driftracer

ministers to many people who don't know cars - throwing something like that out into the public fray is stupid.

I have dealt with many, many mistakes by these places when I was a Chevrolet service manager. I knew the manager of the Wal-Mart Lube Express, the local Jiffy Lube, and the Quaker State Q-Lube by first name. I recently spoke with a couple of guys who worked with me in 1997-1998, and we realized that there wasn't a single day in 2 years that we didn't have an engine job in the shop (big dealership) from one of the quickie lube places.

Sure, these places make more mistakes than dealerships or guys who work on their own rides - joke or not, though, outright disrespect isn't deserved.

I'd like to see old Tom and Ray's credentials...like a radio station manager or newspaper editor knows what a real technician or shop manager is...

fish8

I believe that Tom and Ray actually run/own a garage. If you read their column, which I have for over 10 years now, they always make reference to what they actually advise their customers within their own business.

swschrad

when that kind of thing was in vogue during the rock-on, paisley years, in hopes they didn't get as dirty. didn't work out that way. so they now have a traditional fix-it place with something like 11 staffers. Ray manages, Tom kibbitzes, and since they got in with NPR something like 15 or 20 years ago, they are doing OK. Tom, I think, had also been a professor of something or other in hallowed halls.

they're on the radio because they sling BS well and avoid actually calling it BS. factually, they are backchecked by lawyers and such often enough so that they are at least neutral and at best good in accuracy.

what I liked was an article recently wherein somebody said they got all the dirty oil out of their car by running it until it stopped dripping after they drained the oil pan... then put in the new stuff. about fell on the floor laughing and pointing at the screen, folks from neighboring aisles (not just cubes) had to come by and see just what pushed me that far. that was also in Our Heroes' column, but I can't find it at this time in the online index.

micweb

...the undercar mechanic has to show the filter to the ground level mechanic (to prove he replaced the filter), the oil goes in, the car is started and stopped, oil level is checked, the ground level mechanic confirms there are not oil leaks. I think they have learned their lesson about "bonehead" mistakes like forgetting the oil.

What still happens, according to what I have heard, is 1. filler caps left off; 2. rags etc left in engine compartment; 3. hoods bent because the mechanic forgets this is a prop supported hood and not a hydraulic strut; and that biggest problem of all....

stripped oil pans because they tighten the bolt too tight. One place told me they have to tighten too tight because they don't have a full stock of factory washers and drain bolts. Another place told me, don't worry, we have washers for all makes, not just Hondas.

orangeandblue

First timer... I considered entering this under existing discussions regarding oil changes, however the discussions only warned shade tree mechanics that "overtightening x may cause damage" and "crush washers really work." I could not find any discussions where any damage was actually done.

So here it is... I recently purchased a 2000 Accord LX with 42k documented miles. Service records indicate the car was serviced at 7500, 15k, 22.5k, 28k, and 35k miles by a local Honda dealer. The last oil change was performed by the dealer from whom I purchased the vehicle (not a Honda dealer). In an effort to ensure that the engine would continue to hum happily, I decided 4.5 quarts of Castrol 10w30 and a Honda filter were in order. Prior to draining the oil, I noticed a droplet of oil on the drain plug. I remained optimistic, hoping that a new crush washer would seal the deal. After breaking the drain plug lose, it immediately became taught again before easily backing out of the oil pan. The threads of the drain plug were shining (possibly a burr?) but no apparent stripping. After replacing the oil, filter and crush washer, behold, a tiny droplet of oil appears on the drain plug.

I purchased a new drain plug from Honda today. If this simple fix doesn't hold oil, a Honda service tech estimated a cost of $450 to repair/replace drain plug seat, oil pan and seal. Any comments (besides check oil daily)? Thanks!

previous cars 69 VW Bug, 89 CRX HF, 91 CIVIC SI, 96 VW GTI VR6, 00 Ford Mustang GT.

current cars 00 Accord LX, 67 Ford F100.

chispas

But, they also cover some very interesting technicals....

Here's their newspaper article website :

http://cartalk.cars.com/content/columns/latest.html

bd21

If you can't get it to seal with the new plug, go to a Auto parts store and buy a Fram quick drain kit. Use additional sealant that is made for oil and high temperatures. Wipe the sealant all over the gasket and tighten it firmly, but let the sealant get tacky first. That should take care of the leak and you will never have to remove the plug again. The kit sells for about 6 bucks. Bonus, now you will be able to change your oil even faster. If this doesn't work, have the pan changed at an independent garage. It will cost you less than half that price. Good luck.

div2

-and they rarely let the truth get in the way of a good story. Aside from the fact that they endorse such Safety [non-permissible content removed] proposals as horsepower limits(they think that the M Roadster is "too fast"-what a laugh!), their so-called "Expert" advice is frequently way off base. For example, they told the owner of an E28 5er that his front end shimmy was due to warped rotors and tire imbalance-even though the rotors and tires had already been checked. The true source of the problem was almost certainly worn lower control arm bushings, a well known malady of 5ers. They also issued a blanket indictment of engine performance software, claiming that such modifications will blow up your car. Of course, did they offer any proof to justify that statement? Are you kidding?
Morons.

swschrad

wonderful devices. had to put one in my 64 dodge years back after I changed oil in the dorm parking lot and put too much muscle on it. any decent auto parts store will have them, bring your old one to help them size it.

isellhondas

"Less than half that price"

Really? How do you figure?

The pan costs the same since it's a dealer item. Maybe the independent charges 10.00 less per hour than the dealer does?

Hardly half price wouldn't you agree?

driftracer

for the support on the clowns...

micweb

I agree, use one of these if there is an application for your vehicle. I have them on two cars. In your situation use the LocTite etc.

There are two caveats:

Make sure the oil people have the drain tube handy - or they will use a wrench to remove the whole SureDrain, which defeats the purpose. I go to a friendly oil change place that lets me watch them and make sure they don't forget the drain tube is handy (if they can't find it, or don't know how the system works, they will take out the whole plug).

Second, make sure they do not use a "tool" to put the dust cap back on. That only needs to be finger tight.

The instructions are INSIDE the piece of cardboard packing material that comes with the SureDrain. Don't throw it away, pry it out and unfold it. I missed the instructions the first time.

bd21

I'm a mechanic IS. First you buy an aftermarket pan at significantly less and shop for the charge of a pan change. Less than 75 bucks for sure. of course I would just do the work myself for free. Honda would probably hit you up for 2 hours of labor plus shop supplies at around $180 or so. Check with your shop and let me know if they give you a different story.

driftracer

isn't the same as taking it to a private shop - and I would never replace an oil pan with an aftermarket (read: cheesy imitation) part, unless I was working on a Chevy or Ford small block and was using a Moroso or Milodon pan.

The private shop won't be but a few dollars less on labor, and if you want Taiwanese, made by sweat shop labor parts on your car, that's your choice.

orangeandblue

Thanks for the responses regarding replacing the oil pan. I am happy to report that the simple solution (replacing the drain plug) solved the problem. At a cost of $5.99 + tax, the Honda drain plug measured in at nearly 3/8" longer than than the "shorty plug."

I have to wonder if the original owner of the vehicle witnessed a quarter-sized drop of oil on the driveway and chose to sell the vehicle.

isellhondas

Really? I didn't know there was such a thing.

According to driftracer, they are of inferior quality?

swschrad

at least, the ad supplements. in there with other racing parts.

since every island above water once a week is producing knoockoff collision parts for cars, only makes sense they would stamp out a few oil pans and valve covers, too.

driftracer

There's a night and day difference between the parts, too - from oil pans to brake rotors.

I've always said you should use whatever your conscience allows. As for me and my family's rides, though, a few extra bucks helps me sleep and night because I KNOW there's a difference.

alcan

Yep.

isellhondas

I know the baffles are important in some pans. I don't think I would want to take a chance either!

bd21

There are aftermarket parts for just about everything. Driftracer is incorrect in assuming all aftermarket parts are all inferior. You have to compare them to truly see the difference. Honda air filters are not made by Honda. Buy a Fram or STP and compare it to the Honda. Guess what, it is the same exact filter with the same part number stamped on it, the difference is the Fram is half the cost of the Honda filter. Brake rotors fall into a similar category. I bought two for my Nissan for a third of the cost and they were thicker and they have lasted twice as long as the originals. Again, you have to know what you are comparing and have the expertise to see the difference. I have the background and I always compare factory parts to aftermarket and most of the time I use an aftermarket, if the quality is there.

driftracer

given current ASE certification in all 8 areas, plus an L1 cert - I've been racing for 20 years, so I'm not an amateur.

We were talking about oil pans - feel free to compare wall thickness, weld continuity, corner strength, and pan lip strength when comparing an OEM Honda pan to the junk you'll pick up at Pep Boys. Again, unless you're dealing with Moroso or Milodon, the OEM pan is generally the way to go.

The oil filter comparison - wrong again. Unless you MAKE SURE the Fram or Purolator filter has a check valve (like the OEM version does), you can do top end engine damage and void your warranty.

I'm not going to split hairs with you over everything automotive. I will say that making a general statement like you did leads people wrong, and in many cases, using a private shop, that is getting its parts from the cheapest parts house in town, isn't always the best move for longevity of you rengine and an accolade towards your common sense.

isellhondas

I don't think driftracer said that ALL aftermarket
parts are inferior.

Even though I now sell Hondas, I've been around shops all of my life and I, too know the differences.

Don't assume that if Fram for example makes some filters for Honda that they are the same specs as the ones at some discount parts store. Wix, Fram and others build different quality filters for different markets.

Like you said, you have to really compare things.

I just never realized anyone made aftermarket oil pans since they sure aren't a volume seller.

chispas

Here's a link you might want to bookmark.....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/business/columns/autos/click- - andclack/

swschrad

weekly in their syndicated column. the same global worldwide reach of their production/legal firm, Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe, touches all their media enterprises.

chispas

"Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe, touches all their media enterprises...."

___________________________________________

If you go to the movies today, tickets are close
to $10....

What I've been posting about Tom & Ray is FREE....

-----------------------------------------

True experience.....

There used to be a military post in Indianapolis
called Ft. Benjamin Harrison....

There were two service stations on the post...

I was watching one....

The driver of a Buick that had just been washed
and waxed backed the car out of the service bay...

In the next bay, a grease jockey walked behind
a vehicle he was working on that was still up
on the hoist...

The jockey had a pressure grease gun in his hands.
As he came around at the back of where he was
working, he must have accidentally squeezed the
grease gun...

A column of grease went about 20 feet...

The string went EXACTLY through the two open
rear windows of that recently polished Buick...

Wish I'd be so lucky....

bd21

Driftracer I usually hang out on the Civic or Accord boards, so this is the first time I have chatted with you. It seemed like you were saying most aftermarket parts were junk, so I got the wrong impression that you may not have that much automotive knowledge. My apologies! I was referring to air filters in my case, specifically for my 2001 Accord, again check for yourself. I did and they are indeed the same filter. Personally, I use Pure One for $5 instead of Hondas for $7. As far as oil pans, I would probably pull one off of a junked Honda, if I couldn't find a good aftermarket one. As I'm sure you know there are many aftermarket parts that are made to a higher standard than OEM, but there are just as many that are cheap imitation crap. I usually try to recommend ways for people to save money that won't compromise the performance, longevity, or safety of their vehicles, while keeping their maintenance costs to a minimum. I usually keep cars 13 to 15 years and I have yet to have a failure that has let me on the roadside other than an alternator failure one time. And on that one, I pulled the part and got another one from Autozone, which was free because I had a lifetime warranty on it. Was the alternator better than a factory one? No but it was only 85 bucks and I'll never have to pay that again. I've been working on cars since I was 15 add I'm 44 now. I'm an A&P mechanic who has been in the Air Force as an aircraft maintenance officer for over 20 years. I like to do my own maintenance on cars and grew up around a car garage. I'm comfortable with most maintenance on cars, but I definetly don't have the very specialized expertise that you have on cars. Where do you work now? I look forward to exchanges with you in the future.