"[..] a friend of mine contacted his Honda dealer concerning an oil leak in his CRV. He told them he suspected the Honda brand filter was the culprit, but the leak could be a seal or other engine problem."
From this, I "assume" the guy bought the truck there.
If that's true, then I have a real problem with Craig's answer. You can't have it both ways. Either when you buy locally, they'll do the right thing for service.
Or it doesn't matter and I'll buy my cars from 50 miles away to save $20.
The way the problem was solved was a good one. I would expect my dealer to suggest it. $80 to put a car on the hoist and take a look? That's not how you treat your customers.
So what if he "put the filter on HIMSELF"?? It's his car, he can do whatever he wants. If he messed up, it's his problem and he pays for it, and it's agreed up front. But if a seal let go, it's a $200 warranty problem -- or a $5k rebuild down the road. If it's a car I sold and I'm providing warranty service on, I'd want to take a look...
If he bought the car elsewhere, it's justified... -Mathias
0patience: Excellent response. steine13: You rate an excellent as well. I should print out this exchange of postings and give it to my friend. He bought the CRV from that very dealership about a year ago. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only guy that values good customer relations, and sees the poor business decision in this case. And isellhondas: I should want the Honda dealer to financially compensate the technicians that work there, even if the dealer decides to not collect the fee from the customer.
That dealer should have offered to check the leak without charging the customer.
If the DIY job was faulty they should have simply tightened the filter, removed the extra gasket...whatever, and sent the customer on his wa a bit wiser and without charging him.
I think that's what our shop would have done since I've seen them do similar things for our customers.
So, I totally agree with mathias here. I was just pointing out the other side.
How about this scenario? Dealer looks under vehicle and sees oil dripping from filter. Asks customer if the filter has been changed recently. Customer says yes, I would advise him to have it removed and check for the gasket. If a good customer, I might even get the shop to give it a quick check. Don't make the guy feel stupid if they find the double gasket, just tell him to watch out for that, and offer (for the going price) to change it out.
If this guy was mechanically inclined enough to change his own filter, then suspects a bad filter, why not just buy a new filter, change it out making sure there are no extra or missing gaskets, and then see if the leak stops The cost of a filter is no big deal, whether it is leaking or not.
If after wiping off any drips, after a few weeks the leak shows up again, then get the thing diagnosed and fixed under warranty. I don't understand how you at once can be at least handy enough to change the filter, then helpless enough not to do a little investigation and possibly fix it on your own if it is indeed a bad filter.
My buddy intends to keep an eye on the situation, and if the leak persists past this point of the dealership doing the oil change, he will return the vehicle there for investigation of an oil leak under the warranty. Whatever develops, if he shares it with me I'll pass it along here. It is an interesting predicament.
I worked at a couple different quicky lube places when I was in high school and college, about 6 years total. I was assistant manager at the last place, a big chain.
I wouldn't bring my car to any quicky lube unless I knew who was working. Since I don't know anybody who works at these places anymore, I change my own oil. Dealerships aren't any better than quicky lubes. I had plenty of dipstick co-workers who used to work at dealerships, or went to go work at dealerships. They rarely use the real mechanics at dealers for oil changes. Most big dealers have somebody that just does oil changes and little crap. My local Mazda dealer sells crap that's not in the owner's manual and recommends 3000 mile oil changes, just like quicky lubes.
I read through this thread though, and I think some things said about quicky lubes are a little over the top.
A Jiffy Lube filling all bulk tanks with 30 weight to save money? Come on. I doubt any local distributor even has 30 weight in their trucks, the only bulk 30 weight is probably in barrels, and nobody is going to waste time filling the bulk tanks with barrels because Jiffy Lubes don't have small bulk tanks and it would take forever.
A dealership that has replaced blown engines caused by quicky lubes every day for 2 years? That's quite an exaggeration. I worked at these places for 6 years and I never blew an engine. I've seen it happen a couple times in 6 years, but the shops I worked at did thousands of oil changes in 6 years. I did thousands of oil changes in 6 years. The big chain that I worked at had many locations in my metro area and if ANY one of them blew an engine, everybody heard about it. There must be something in the water where ever a dealer is replacing that many engines.
"A dealership that has replaced blown engines caused by quicky lubes every day for 2 years?"
That was my conversation and I never said we did an engine every day - I said there wasn't a day that went by that we didn't have at least one engine job in the shop resulting from one of those places.
That takes the number down from 730 in two years down to 20-30 a year. Unfortunately, still fairly common in Medford, Oregon with about 18-20 quick lube places.
Figure on a week and a half/two weeks by the time the incident happens, the vehicle gets towed in, we order an engine, we replace the engine, the customer and the quick lube place argues over who pays what....that's only 1.5 - 2 per year per place - not so hard to fathom, unfortunately.
"That takes the number down from 730 in two years down to 20-30 a year."
That still seems like an awful lot, especially considering that it's just one dealer, and I know the chain I worked for didn't blow that many engines in a year and we had 30 locations. The store I worked at hadn't blown an engine in 5 years. 5 years is a lot of oil changes.
"the customer and the quick lube place argues over who pays what...."
Didn't happen with who I worked for, anything that we messed up we payed for.
I managed heavy line, and had 9 guys - we did everything GM, plus Honda and Acura - that only leaves a couple of import brands, plus Ford and Chrysler/Dodge.
One every two weeks from 18-20 quick lube places - I'd say the odds were present for more failures, given the horrible lack of training, the non-caring attitudes, and the complete incompetency of the once-a-week hired-and-fired rotating managers.
Kinda funny - my kid now works at Pep Boys - he's 17, and loves it because he's found that after being raised as a total car nut's son, he knows more than most of the managers, and certainly more than the other parts/floor sales guys.
He was complaining to me how a car came back in 6 times for repair, and how three different customers complained about one "service advisor's" selling habits, where the bill was always quite a bit higher than they were quoted.
I explained that the service advisor issue was caused by lack of research on what the job really costs, plus shop fees and tax, to make the bill right. Plus, he didn't care what the customer thought, and perhaps likes confrontation and his little bit of authority that he gets to use. This is the same guy who shows up late 3 days a week and smells like beer, and he's only 24. He'll be a great asset when he's 55 and truly experienced at this sort of thing (sarcasm).
The technician? Just inept, I guess, or a combination of inexperience and poor supervision.
I explained that most real ASE-certified technicians and real (read: knowledgable) service advisors or service managers strive to work at dealerships or nice private shops.
The guys who are dabbling in the field, burnt out, fired, unqualified, unlicensed, or have poor driving records and a dealership won't hire them, end of at Quickie Lube...or Pep Boys, in this case.
I'm not saying I never worked with any dirtbags, but we didn't blow engines left and right, and nobody would even think to fill the bulk tanks with 30 weight to save money. That's all.
I know these places can be pushy and try to sell you all kinds of stuff, but at the same time, I worked with some people that I'd trust to send my Grandma to get service done. If you can't or won't do it yourself, you just have to find a place that you trust, and that goes for dealerships too.
I don't even trust a dealer to do my oil change. I have an internal oil filter with a plastic cover and I saw one of the local dealers here taking the cover off with a metal filter pliers. No thanks. When I was in to buy an oil filter for my Protege, I asked one of the techs why there were two different oil capacities in the owner's manual (both included oil fitler), and the tech told me "I dunno, I just put 4 quarts in all 4 cyls". To think that you'll be dealing exclusively with professionals at dealers and only dirtbags at quicky lubes is wrong. If you're the paranoid type like me about my cars, you should do that kind of stuff yourself.
the lube guys are just as unqualified at a dealer as many quickie places - the only saving grace is having the osmosis effect of real technicians rubbing off on them.
Our lube guys, and heck, one of my main techs (a master with 22 years) made mistakes - that master tech did an oil change along with a water pump and radiator replacement on an older S-10 - guess what? He forgot to put the oil in.
The owner of the S-10 was my father in law, and of course I told him what we'd done - he was plum tickled that he was getting a new (reman) motor in his 120,000 mile rig!
Some lube guys at quicky lubes may not be master techs, but they can pretty much change oil in their sleep on any vehicle. If there is such a thing, I'd consider myself an oil change professional. I still have the fram oil filter catalog (we used filters made by Fram, with a different label) in my head, and I haven't worked there for years. That's why I trust myself more than anyone.
I wouldn't be mad about getting a reman engine in a car with 120,000 miles either, but I'd be PISSED if I had a new car that needed a new engine because someone messed up an oil change....so I change it myself. Maybe when it gets old, I'll take it somewhere to get an oil change, and hope that they screw up.
On the mistake arena, though, I've found that just about anyone is qualified to change oil - after all, it's only a few steps.
99% of all the oil change-related engine failures I've seen were simply because someone was in a hurry and skipped a step, not because they were stupid.
Unfortunately, skipping a step like forgetting to put the oil in, forgetting to install a filter, forgetting to check and see if the old filter gasket is still there, or forgetting to install the drain plug, are all very critical to engine (and employment)duration.
if you only have to know how to do it on one car. Knowing how to change oil on everything, and knowing all the little tricks for pain in the [non-permissible content removed] oil filters (and knowing where the oil filters are, some are hidden well) is where the skill and experience comes in handy.
There are so many ways to screw up an oil change that it's just not worth it for me to pay someone to do it.
Overtightening, undertightening, not replacing all the bolts on an undercarriage cover, taking undercarriage covers off and not putting them back on, not replacing crush gaskets on Hondas, rounding off drain plug heads, overfilling, underfilling, grease stains in interior, missing dipsticks and oil caps, rags stuck in accesory belts, tools left under hoods, not replacing the oil filter, double gaskets, checking air filters and forgetting to put them back in, using the wrong viscosity oil because they don't have the right stuff.....I'm sure I could think of a thousand more things.
Yeah, doing oil changes on MOST cars is simple and easy, but I don't think too many people realize that not all of them are like that.
Sure, if you're the average guy and you've been changing oil on your Chevy Blazer for 10 years, you'd think that oil changes are simple.
Tell that same guy with the Blazer to go change the oil filter on an Infiniti Q45, and do it in less than 15 minutes, and after he's done, tell him to go downstairs and change the front/rear differential fluid and transfer case fluid on that 4runner with the off road package and skidplates covering everything, and don't take all day to do it because there are 10 cars waiting outside, and there just MIGHT be problems. Knowing how to change oil correctly on everything from an old VW bus to a 911 turbo (yes, people bring 911s to quicky lubes) doesn't happen overnight.
To be fair though, whenever a car like a 911 came in, a manager usually worked on it and made damn sure that it was done right. Replacing a 911 engine would probably ruin a store's warranty budget for 3 years and ensure that nobody would be getting a bonus for a long time.
I loved doing those kinds of cars, especially 911s. They always took at least 12 quarts of synthetic oil and synthetic oil changes were $50 plus $6 per quart over 5 quarts. Those cars were guaranteed to help my ticket without even having to sell anything else.
I always hogged the Corvette oil changes at the Chevy dealer simply because each one hit my bottom line with $65. When you have everyone in the Corvette club coming to you, plus their service is more than the $19.95 Goodwrench deal, it makes a pretty good difference when you're getting paid on 5% of the gross.
Same with diesels - bring them 14 quart suckers on! And add for the two fuel filters!
good thing I'm getting back in shape, because I'll be hiking in from the South 40 every time I park the Cobra in public!
Knock on wood - our PT GT now has 45,000 miles and has been parked everywhere (it seems) in the greater Philly area - there isn't a single door ding on the car. And you know that has nothing to do with the way the owner takes care of it.
Must be the rifle scope reticle decal on the back window, the USMC Scout/Sniper Class of '84D decal, and the "My Son is a US Marine" sticker...
you might also use some sticky gum once in a while to attach a piece of ammo brass someplace on the top of the car for, ahhhh, enhanced realism in crowd control
"Must be the rifle scope reticle decal on the back window, the USMC Scout/Sniper Class of '84D decal, and the "My Son is a US Marine" sticker..."
I might need to get me some of those Marine Corps stickers if they help prevent door dings. I was never in the Marines though, and I don't think they sell "My Dad was a US Marine" stickers..lol
if not to prevent door dings, to support the corps, and for one more way to show my Dad that I'm proud of what he and many others did for their country. He went through hell on earth to make sure I can sleep at night, earn a living, own a car, just about everything that I sometimes take for granted. You can never be too proud of our servicemen and women. The least I could do is display a sticker.
I know it was off topic, but when you brought up the Marine Corps stickers, it made me think of my Dad and his fellow Corpsmen that don't get the recoginition they deserve.
The mysterious oil leak in the Honda CRV seems to have been cured. It would seem that the leak was due to a defective Honda brand oil filter that has been replaced along with an oil change.
seriously, there will be an occasional chip in the filter gasket or weepy seam in any line of oil filters, and if a chunk of road grit falls off the engine and onto the oiled gasket as you're screwing a new oil filter on, it acts just the same way. be glad the issue went away with the old filter.
I would call the dealer a liar. The threads are not what seals the oil in. Threads on an oil pan should never wear out unless cross threaded or if you had a gorilla overtighten the plug. Drain plugs have either a built in O-ring seal, or some have a separate washer or gasket. I have seen some that just use a metal to metal contact. If the threads on the oil pan are shot, it is most likely because they cross threaded the oil plug. At that point, the drain plug may not go in perpendicular to the oil pan and thus the washer or o-ring or metal to metal seal surface might not seal properly, though you may be able to get some aftermarket plug to work better than the original. Check an auto parts store, they may be able to help.
If you had the dealer do all the oil changes, my guess is they screwed it up at some point and cross threaded it, but good luck trying to get them to reimburse you. If you have had other places change your oil or done it yourself, you probably won't be able to prove anything.
I did one on a Harley transmission about 20 years ago. I had to remove the old drain plug and carefully drill the hole out to a larger size as called for in the instructions. I then fingered and then wrenched in a self tapping plug. In the center of the plug was a normal drain bolt, seated in normal threads. Only that center drain bolt was ever moved again. The bike owner loved the result. The two of us managed the installation without removing the damaged case from the engine. We "rinsed" the inside with thin oil as we proceeded, and the result was no residual contamination. Luck/Skill, take your pick. >:^]
Doesn't seem to be logical, but worn threads can cause an oil leak. My beater 1993 Taurus SHO, 2000,000 miles, LOTS of oil changes. The threads in the cast aluminum oil pan are worn. New factory plug and seal, aftermarket plug and seal, factory plug with aftermarket seal, aftermarket plug with factory seal....... every combination drips oil. The only way I can stop it is by using teflon tape on the plug threads when I change the oil.
Hmmm.... good question. The pan casting is thick enough to install a Heli-Coil but I'd have to remove the pan to ensure no chips inside, and I don't know whether it'd provide an oil tight seal. As it is, it's not that much of a deal to wrap teflon tape on the plug when I change the oil. If it gets any worse or I get un-lazy (that's a Canajun word, eh!) I'll probably rethread it to the next largest plug size.
Why would you take your Honda to Walmart for an oil and filter change, when most Honda dealers run specials on this service? ($17.99 + State Tax). If you take it to a Honda dealer, you get a Honda filter, and in the process, all of your service records are in one place!
Comments
From this, I "assume" the guy bought the truck there.
If that's true, then I have a real problem with Craig's answer. You can't have it both ways. Either when you buy locally, they'll do the right thing for service.
Or it doesn't matter and I'll buy my cars from 50 miles away to save $20.
The way the problem was solved was a good one. I would expect my dealer to suggest it. $80 to put a car on the hoist and take a look? That's not how you treat your customers.
So what if he "put the filter on HIMSELF"?? It's his car, he can do whatever he wants. If he messed up, it's his problem and he pays for it, and it's agreed up front. But if a seal let go, it's a $200 warranty problem -- or a $5k rebuild down the road. If it's a car I sold and I'm providing warranty service on, I'd want to take a look...
If he bought the car elsewhere, it's justified...
-Mathias
If the DIY job was faulty they should have simply tightened the filter, removed the extra gasket...whatever, and sent the customer on his wa a bit wiser and without charging him.
I think that's what our shop would have done since I've seen them do similar things for our customers.
So, I totally agree with mathias here. I was just pointing out the other side.
Dealer looks under vehicle and sees oil dripping from filter. Asks customer if the filter has been changed recently. Customer says yes, I would advise him to have it removed and check for the gasket. If a good customer, I might even get the shop to give it a quick check. Don't make the guy feel stupid if they find the double gasket, just tell him to watch out for that, and offer (for the going price) to change it out.
If after wiping off any drips, after a few weeks the leak shows up again, then get the thing diagnosed and fixed under warranty. I don't understand how you at once can be at least handy enough to change the filter, then helpless enough not to do a little investigation and possibly fix it on your own if it is indeed a bad filter.
I wouldn't bring my car to any quicky lube unless I knew who was working. Since I don't know anybody who works at these places anymore, I change my own oil. Dealerships aren't any better than quicky lubes. I had plenty of dipstick co-workers who used to work at dealerships, or went to go work at dealerships. They rarely use the real mechanics at dealers for oil changes. Most big dealers have somebody that just does oil changes and little crap. My local Mazda dealer sells crap that's not in the owner's manual and recommends 3000 mile oil changes, just like quicky lubes.
I read through this thread though, and I think some things said about quicky lubes are a little over the top.
A Jiffy Lube filling all bulk tanks with 30 weight to save money? Come on. I doubt any local distributor even has 30 weight in their trucks, the only bulk 30 weight is probably in barrels, and nobody is going to waste time filling the bulk tanks with barrels because Jiffy Lubes don't have small bulk tanks and it would take forever.
A dealership that has replaced blown engines caused by quicky lubes every day for 2 years? That's quite an exaggeration. I worked at these places for 6 years and I never blew an engine. I've seen it happen a couple times in 6 years, but the shops I worked at did thousands of oil changes in 6 years. I did thousands of oil changes in 6 years. The big chain that I worked at had many locations in my metro area and if ANY one of them blew an engine, everybody heard about it. There must be something in the water where ever a dealer is replacing that many engines.
That was my conversation and I never said we did an engine every day - I said there wasn't a day that went by that we didn't have at least one engine job in the shop resulting from one of those places.
That takes the number down from 730 in two years down to 20-30 a year. Unfortunately, still fairly common in Medford, Oregon with about 18-20 quick lube places.
Figure on a week and a half/two weeks by the time the incident happens, the vehicle gets towed in, we order an engine, we replace the engine, the customer and the quick lube place argues over who pays what....that's only 1.5 - 2 per year per place - not so hard to fathom, unfortunately.
That still seems like an awful lot, especially considering that it's just one dealer, and I know the chain I worked for didn't blow that many engines in a year and we had 30 locations. The store I worked at hadn't blown an engine in 5 years. 5 years is a lot of oil changes.
"the customer and the quick lube place argues over who pays what...."
Didn't happen with who I worked for, anything that we messed up we payed for.
One every two weeks from 18-20 quick lube places - I'd say the odds were present for more failures, given the horrible lack of training, the non-caring attitudes, and the complete incompetency of the once-a-week hired-and-fired rotating managers.
Kinda funny - my kid now works at Pep Boys - he's 17, and loves it because he's found that after being raised as a total car nut's son, he knows more than most of the managers, and certainly more than the other parts/floor sales guys.
He was complaining to me how a car came back in 6 times for repair, and how three different customers complained about one "service advisor's" selling habits, where the bill was always quite a bit higher than they were quoted.
I explained that the service advisor issue was caused by lack of research on what the job really costs, plus shop fees and tax, to make the bill right. Plus, he didn't care what the customer thought, and perhaps likes confrontation and his little bit of authority that he gets to use. This is the same guy who shows up late 3 days a week and smells like beer, and he's only 24. He'll be a great asset when he's 55 and truly experienced at this sort of thing (sarcasm).
The technician? Just inept, I guess, or a combination of inexperience and poor supervision.
I explained that most real ASE-certified technicians and real (read: knowledgable) service advisors or service managers strive to work at dealerships or nice private shops.
The guys who are dabbling in the field, burnt out, fired, unqualified, unlicensed, or have poor driving records and a dealership won't hire them, end of at Quickie Lube...or Pep Boys, in this case.
I know these places can be pushy and try to sell you all kinds of stuff, but at the same time, I worked with some people that I'd trust to send my Grandma to get service done. If you can't or won't do it yourself, you just have to find a place that you trust, and that goes for dealerships too.
I don't even trust a dealer to do my oil change. I have an internal oil filter with a plastic cover and I saw one of the local dealers here taking the cover off with a metal filter pliers. No thanks. When I was in to buy an oil filter for my Protege, I asked one of the techs why there were two different oil capacities in the owner's manual (both included oil fitler), and the tech told me "I dunno, I just put 4 quarts in all 4 cyls". To think that you'll be dealing exclusively with professionals at dealers and only dirtbags at quicky lubes is wrong. If you're the paranoid type like me about my cars, you should do that kind of stuff yourself.
Our lube guys, and heck, one of my main techs (a master with 22 years) made mistakes - that master tech did an oil change along with a water pump and radiator replacement on an older S-10 - guess what? He forgot to put the oil in.
The owner of the S-10 was my father in law, and of course I told him what we'd done - he was plum tickled that he was getting a new (reman) motor in his 120,000 mile rig!
I wouldn't be mad about getting a reman engine in a car with 120,000 miles either, but I'd be PISSED if I had a new car that needed a new engine because someone messed up an oil change....so I change it myself. Maybe when it gets old, I'll take it somewhere to get an oil change, and hope that they screw up.
99% of all the oil change-related engine failures I've seen were simply because someone was in a hurry and skipped a step, not because they were stupid.
Unfortunately, skipping a step like forgetting to put the oil in, forgetting to install a filter, forgetting to check and see if the old filter gasket is still there, or forgetting to install the drain plug, are all very critical to engine (and employment)duration.
There are so many ways to screw up an oil change that it's just not worth it for me to pay someone to do it.
Overtightening, undertightening, not replacing all the bolts on an undercarriage cover, taking undercarriage covers off and not putting them back on, not replacing crush gaskets on Hondas, rounding off drain plug heads, overfilling, underfilling, grease stains in interior, missing dipsticks and oil caps, rags stuck in accesory belts, tools left under hoods, not replacing the oil filter, double gaskets, checking air filters and forgetting to put them back in, using the wrong viscosity oil because they don't have the right stuff.....I'm sure I could think of a thousand more things.
I guess what I mean is that the mechanics, not the specifics, are fairly simple, and major steps left out, like not replacing oil, are detrimental.
Sure, if you're the average guy and you've been changing oil on your Chevy Blazer for 10 years, you'd think that oil changes are simple.
Tell that same guy with the Blazer to go change the oil filter on an Infiniti Q45, and do it in less than 15 minutes, and after he's done, tell him to go downstairs and change the front/rear differential fluid and transfer case fluid on that 4runner with the off road package and skidplates covering everything, and don't take all day to do it because there are 10 cars waiting outside, and there just MIGHT be problems. Knowing how to change oil correctly on everything from an old VW bus to a 911 turbo (yes, people bring 911s to quicky lubes) doesn't happen overnight.
In fact, Wal-Mart will never see my Cobra, unless I drive it there for shopping.
To be fair though, whenever a car like a 911 came in, a manager usually worked on it and made damn sure that it was done right. Replacing a 911 engine would probably ruin a store's warranty budget for 3 years and ensure that nobody would be getting a bonus for a long time.
I loved doing those kinds of cars, especially 911s. They always took at least 12 quarts of synthetic oil and synthetic oil changes were $50 plus $6 per quart over 5 quarts. Those cars were guaranteed to help my ticket without even having to sell anything else.
park on the far end of the lot, far away from the dock as well
Same with diesels - bring them 14 quart suckers on! And add for the two fuel filters!
Knock on wood - our PT GT now has 45,000 miles and has been parked everywhere (it seems) in the greater Philly area - there isn't a single door ding on the car. And you know that has nothing to do with the way the owner takes care of it.
Must be the rifle scope reticle decal on the back window, the USMC Scout/Sniper Class of '84D decal, and the "My Son is a US Marine" sticker...
hey, whatever works...
I might need to get me some of those Marine Corps stickers if they help prevent door dings. I was never in the Marines though, and I don't think they sell "My Dad was a US Marine" stickers..lol
thanks!
shifty the Host
Krzys
If you had the dealer do all the oil changes, my guess is they screwed it up at some point and cross threaded it, but good luck trying to get them to reimburse you. If you have had other places change your oil or done it yourself, you probably won't be able to prove anything.
and since that dealer is two quarts high on ( ), don't go there again unless they apologize for that idiot attitude.
I remember using double and even triple oversize self tapping plugs.
I also remember rubber plugs that expanded by using an allen wrench. Those were too scary for me to use!
Nowdays, shops hate to try things like this. If the makeshift repair fails, the customer will be back demanding a new engine when the oil runs out.
I learned long ago that trying to do a customer a favor by saving them money usually backfires.
Sad but true.