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Oil change/fiascos

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  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    This forum has convinced me to discontinue my small but growing interest in VW vehicles. I have from time to time developed an interest, but something seems to always dictate dropping it for practicality.
  • garlandgarland Member Posts: 14
    Has anyone ever bought Castrol 5/40 synthetic from a retailer? In my 2002 Jetta diesel I used Shell Rotella 5/40 synthetic that I bought from Walmart. I just bought a 2005 Passat Diesel and I would like to use the oil that VW says use. I called and wrote VW asking what are the API categories of their VW 505 01 oil that they say I must use...Did not get an answer.??? Rotella API categories are CF-4...CG-4 and CH-4. Any help or information will be appreciated.
  • garlandgarland Member Posts: 14
    Mark, I thank you very much fot the information.
  • garlandgarland Member Posts: 14
    Just got off phone with CASTROL. Castrols 5/40 synthetic VW 505 01 0il( for VW 2005 diesels) is made in Germany and shipped to VW dealers in the USA. Only place to buy this VW 505 01 oil for 2005 VW diesels is from the dealer!!!Was told that the Castrol 5/40 0il made in this country is different from the one made in Germany.This is unreal.!!
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    I think I'll cancel my shopping trip to the VeeDub dealership...
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    I'd check around on-line for a supplier. There's a bunch of guys on some of the other Passat forums that use Euro brand oils (like Motul, Lubro-moly, etc). I'd browse for 505.01 spec oils and then check for US suppliers. No guarantee that you'll find it, but worth checking, I'd think.

    -EDIT-
    I found these US websites for Motul in the 505.01 Spec:

    http://www.motul.us/autoresellers/American-Dist.html

    http://www.northamericanlubricants.com/news/motul505.htm
  • garlandgarland Member Posts: 14
    I thank all of you so very much. I called two distributors and one charges $7.10 a liter delivered,for a case of 12. Another ad says $4.60 delivered, waiting for a call from them.The distributors I called were the two web sited provided by the editor. Thanks again.!!!
  • garlandgarland Member Posts: 14
    Just ordered a case of MOTUL 5/40 syn. meeting VW's 505.01 seecifications from North American Lubricants $5.10 a liter delivered. I thank you again.
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    Glad my links were of use to you. That doesn't sound like a bad price, either.
  • garlandgarland Member Posts: 14
    Just ordered a case of MOTUL 5/40 syn. meeting VW's 505.01 seecifications from North American Lubricants $5.10 a liter delivered. I thank you again.
  • banxbanx Member Posts: 6
    Relating to turbo cool-down, I have a VW corp product, an '01 Audi S4 with twin turbos in the 2.7T engine. The manual states after a hard drive, the engine should idle for 2 minutes before shutting it off. I do this after any drive of 45 minutes or longer. One can also do this by driving in 6th gear without one's foot on the gas at the end of one's commute; it has the same effect by operating the car at very low rpm's. My car does not specifically state that synthetic oil needs to be used. I've had the oil changed every 5K miles (vs. 10K in owner's manual) at the dealer, bringing in my own 5w-30 regular, dino oil, not synthetic. I have over 60K miles and have not had any problems with the engine or the turbos.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    I'm glad you posted that info. It is a relief to hear that there may be light at the end of the tunnel on this oil spec business for the VW corporation.
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    You wrote:
    "My car does not specifically state that synthetic oil needs to be used. I've had the oil changed every 5K miles (vs. 10K in owner's manual) at the dealer, bringing in my own 5w-30 regular, dino oil, not synthetic. I have over 60K miles and have not had any problems with the engine or the turbos."

    Apples to oranges: 2.7T to 1.8T. The 2.7T has a sump capacity of something in excess of 6 quarts (and I saw one web reference to 7 quarts). The 1.8T (with the original filter) is under 4 quarts; even with the larger filter the capacity is only about 4.3 qts.

    Bottomline: if you run the 1.8T, your oil needs to meet VW Spec 502.00. That means synthetic and, in most cases, 5w-40 multigrade. And you need to meet the 5,000 mile oil change interval. VW's mistake was not making the requirements of the engine perfectly clear and for not holding the dealership network's feet to the fire to enforce it (and provide it at a reasonable price).
  • colecole Member Posts: 67
    I'm hoping someone can help me out...

    I've got a '97 Audi A4 (1.8T Quattro) with 90k miles on it. Recently, the low oil pressure light has been coming on intermittently. It will come on for about 10 seconds and the go off. A few minutes later, it will go on again and then shut off. I took it to the local dealer and was told that nothing was wrong with the car except that it had an aftermarket oil filter on it and, "we've seen this problem when people use aftermarket oil filters. You should come in and have us change your oil." The dealer oil change is $60 and I just had it changed 1500 miles ago. The dealer charged me $79 just to look at my car and drive it 20 miles (they said they couldn't replicate the problem).

    Are there any other possibilities and/or does the dealer's explanation make sense?
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    Could be lots of things...

    At one end of the spectrum, it could be a bad oil pressure sender. At the other end, it could be a sign that your engine is sludged and the oil pump pickup is clogging.

    Why didn't they just change the filter, and not the oil? Shouldn't have cost $60 for that.

    You could give other info that might help others here diagnose your problem:

    What kind of oil do you use? Synthetic or dino?

    What is your oil change interval in miles?

    Any other symptoms? Any strange engine noises?

    Under exactly what circumstnaces did you see the light turn on? At idle? At speed? Only when hot? Only when cold?

    Don't ignore this problem!
  • colecole Member Posts: 67
    "Why didn't they just change the filter, and not the oil? Shouldn't have cost $60 for that."

    - Ever since I've gotten the car, the dealer has taken every opportunity to upsell me or sell me more than what I wind up needing (I usually get a second opinion from an independent).

    "What kind of oil do you use? Synthetic or dino?"

    - I believe that it's NOT synthetic. I get it changed at one of those quickie places. Costs me like $30.

    "What is your oil change interval in miles?"

    - The manual calls for oil changes every 7500 miles. I've never been over 7500 miles (I bought the car with 30k on it). Usually, the oil is changed somewhere between 5500 and 6500 miles.

    "Any other symptoms? Any strange engine noises?"

    - I haven't noticed any other symptoms. The temperature gauges appear to be running in the same band as they mormally do (around 200F and right in the middle on the Hot/Cold). If there was truly an oil pressure problem, would the temperature be running higher? I have noticed that the light comes on more frequently and stays on longer now. When this first started happening, it would occur more often on hot days than on cooler days. The light usually comes on for the first time about 15 minutes into my morning drive (the total drive is less than 20 minutes). On the way home, the light will come on sooner.

    At this point, I'll likely have the dealer change the oil and filter and have full synthetic put in, just to ease my mind. I've been planning on trading this car in anyway but I obviously can't do that with a big red oil pressure light on! Thanks for your help...
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    Cole, I gotta say that your symptoms sound more and more like that of a sludged engine with a clogging oil pick up.

    The intermittent oil light becoming more frequent is what concerns me. I think you are on borrowed time right now. Did Audi send you a letter on the sludge issue? VWoA sent a notice to the 1.8T Passat owners.

    I think you are going to have to spend some money to get an accurate diagnosis. If you think selling/trading a car with a flashing oil light is tough, wait until you try to sell/trade one with a seized engine! There's lots of info floating around Edmunds and other forums about the sludge issue.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    Perhaps your oil pump is going down for the count...
  • colecole Member Posts: 67
    When you put it that way...

    I just got off the phone with Audi "Service" about the issue. They can get me in 1 week from today. Obviously, I'm now concerned that my engine will seize at any moment.

    Assuming that this is an oil sludging problem... I know that there's no way that I can prove that I had my oil changed regularly. I was (b/c of this, I'm changing my ways) not in the habit of saving receipts for oil changes. What are the remedies to fix the problem? If the engine does NOT seize, are we talking about a flush of the system and then an oil change? What kind of cost am I looking at?

    Altair, I appreciate your help. I didn't get a letter in the mail, but found a copy online.
  • fish8fish8 Member Posts: 2,282
    I bought my '04 1.8t Passat back in June and still have not received any letter from VW advising me of the Oil Sludge issues they are having. Thoughts? Will I recieve one soon?
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    Cole,

    Some people swear by a product called Auto Rx. I've not used myself (I'm at low miles on my '03, have always used synth oil with a change interval of 4,000 miles). Anyway, you can check their website; do a google. The stuff is supposed to be safe and cleans slowly, not striping off lots of stuff at once to cause a blockage.

    You can also probably find some other info on Bobistheoilguy. Again, run a google.

    AutoRx isn't that much. Essentially, you add it to your oil, run it for some proscribed time/miles, then rinse the engine with fresh oil/filter, again for some proscribed distance. Then switch to synth and a 5,000 mile or less change interval.

    And BTW, all this long distance diagnosing is iffy! Nothing will beat have a tech actually look things over. I could be wrong! ("I'm not a tech, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!")
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    your maintenance is documented and on-line with mfr's mandates, or it may be a short conversation at the dealership...
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    Call VWoA at their 800 number listed in the owner's manual.
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    "your maintenance is documented and on-line with mfr's mandates, or it may be a short conversation at the dealership... "

    Word.
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    I was, unfortunately, on the giving end of that message on several occasions.
  • colecole Member Posts: 67
    That's just my problem. I either change the oil myself or go to a quickie place - no receipts.

    Assuming that you do have an oil sludging problem (and no engine seizure), how do you repair the problem? Can you flush the system without using additives with a normal oil change (such as those discussed on bobistheoilguy, etc)?

    Getting back to the specific topic, I can't believe how common it is for techs at the quickie places to overtighten drain plugs and not reattach skid plates properly. If you change as much oil as these guys do, how can you screw that up? I'm a victim of the overtightened drain plug. Audi (apparently) has an aluminum oil pan which can't be re-tapped. Of course, the perps denied any wrongdoing and told me to "prove that we did it." What a great attitude! I know they did it and won't ever go back. The $300 for a new oil pan might not have saved me as a customer, but refusing to rectify the problem most certainly did cause them to lose more than 1 customer...
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    Not even for the oil and filter at Wal-Mart?

    I can only wish you luck at this point - the manufacturer mandates documentation, and that's their right.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    Documentation can be provided by do-it-yourselfers making a log of maintenance activities. There may be rules such as the entries need to be made at the time of each service and the detail of information should be there. Document examiners can tell pretty well if the log book was made last night or was made by periodic entries. I believe the above is part of the Magnussen Act. I can't swear to it, however.
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    What about for those of us using an Excel spreadsheet?
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    just requires "documentation".

    I've been involved in several engine or transmission failure cases where the owner was a DIYer - they had rec'ts from Wal-Mart indicating "one filter #3453 and 5 quarts of 5W30 oil" - along with the date on the rec't, and a mileage annotation, that's all you need.

    It's the defense's burden of proof at that point to prove you DIDN'T maintain the vehicle.
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    any mechanic worth his salt can look in an engine and tell if the oil has been changed regularly. I bought a used '66 Mustang in my younger days that had only 40K on it. Pulled the valve cover and spent the next hour pulling tar out of the cover with a putty knife.

    On the other hand, drove a 3.8L V6 for 70K and pulled a valve cover to change a leaky gasket. The oil had been changed every 5K with Castrol GTX and an AC filter. The inside of the valve cover had only the golden sheen of oil, with no varnish or tar buildup. If you were a mechanic looking at the two engines, who would you believe if both said the oil was changed on regular intervals?
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    That isn't always the case.
    I have seen many cases where the oil was changed faithfully at the recommended intervals (in the late 70s, early 80s). But the oil used, although it met the manufacturer's specifications, created a sludging problem. There are vehicles out today, that have sludging problems and changing the oil at the recommended intervals doesn't solve the problem.

    So saying that you can tell by looking inside the valve cover, whether or not the oil was changed regularly may not always be the case.

    To answer your question, since I am a mechanic.....
    If you were a mechanic looking at the two engines, who would you believe if both said the oil was changed on regular intervals?
    If the mustang was the 6 cyl, I would believe both. The older engines didn't have very good crankcase ventilation and a plugged PCV valve can cause the same problem as you described.
    So, you can see where depending on the engine, the engine can sometimes lie to you.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    I have used the RX treatment on several cars. Onlyuproblem is that it requires 1500 miles for the celaning cycle and 2000 miles for the rinse cycle to complete the process. In my case engines were basically clean, I just wanted to try it however, many many people swear that it does clean engines gradually in lieu of the harsh flushes you run for 10 min. As a last resort worth a try, it difinitely does no harm if that is a fear. If you have the time in miles highly recommend over a harsh solvent cleaner. The pics from people that have used it before and after (engine components) are dramatic!
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    I am confident that at least hand written notes in a glove-box note pad are sufficient proof for a DIYer to submit as legal evidence. I may be barking at the moon. At the same time I firmly believe that a car buyer needs to avoid brands that have a bad reputation for honoring warranty claims. I would think that a "good" automobile manufacturer would honor all but the most flagrant abuses of machinery. To do otherwise is to offend the customer base and lose business due to a developing bad reputation. With our society's movement to computer data storage, surely if such records are not now accepted, they will be in the foreseeable future. Let's hope so. I use spiral wire bound small note pads for my own convenience. I record the date and mileage plus service for every episode on every vehicle I own. I have never had to "prove" my maintenance, so I can't attest to the practical adequacy of my system. I will stand by my opinion that the Magnussen Act makes it difficult for the manufacturer to deny the records of the owner.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    I am having little luck in finding the actual text of the Magnussen-Moss Act, but the site below is interesting, and a bit informative...

    http://www.sema.org/main/semaorghome.aspx?ID=8124
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Back in the sixties there were certain brands of oil that would sludge up engines in the worst way.

    The most popular of these brands were named after a couple of eastern states.

    We could always tell when we pulled off a valve cover. We called these P***** engines.

    I would guess things have improved but I still won't use the much advertised brand!
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    Most quick lube places have you in their computer and can print out a record of your oil changes.

    I second the recommendation to study up on Auto RX and other crankcase cleaning solutions, they apparently really have saved some engines. They won't revive a damaged engine, but nothing you say indicates actual damage at this point.

    Auto RX requires driving it around a few thousand miles with it in. You don't have time forthat right now.

    Gunk (the product called Gunk) requires idling for 5 minutes then flushing. It doesn't work gently and gradually like Rx, nor as deeply. But it can probably pull you back from the brink.

    If you want to try Gunk before you go to Audi, first change your oil and filter so they aren't packed with goo.

    Replace your existing oil with Rotella T synthetic 5-40 - or any good diesel oil - diesel oil (it is graded for autos too, so don't worry) hold dirt better. This oil is only $12.78 a gallon jug at WalMart. Replace your existing filter with a Bosch from Autozone or an VW/Audi filter from the dealer. For this Gunk oil change cycle, you can pick up a Fram from WalMart if you like.

    After you have replaced the oil, add the Gunk (make sure you don't overfill, you might need to underfill then add the Gunk) and let the car idle - do not drive it - for the recommended five minutes. Actually, let it idle until it warms up, THEN add the Gunk, let it idle 5 more minutes.

    Replace the oil and filter with the same type of oil and filter you did before the Gunk (fresh). Drive the car 20-50 miles. Keep an eye on the oil pressure light. It should't act up as much. But be prepared to pull over, just in case. Accelerate real easy.

    Now replace the oil and filter a third time - with Mobil 1 full synthetic 0-40, which satisfies the VW requirement for oil., and with a Bosch, Mobil 1, K&N, or dealer filter. You should take it into the dealer in this state. If they ask what happened, tell them you decided to put synthetic oil in to see it it would help.

    The reason for the first oil change, before the Gunk, is to make sure you have oil and a filter that can trap the crud that gets liquified.

    The reason for the next oil change is to flush out the Gunk and residual goo.

    The third oil change is so you go to the dealer without contaminants in the oil in case they run an oil analysis.

    If this gets you past the problem, get the Auto RX and finish the job right.

    But stay on 2,000 mile oil changes until you are sure the goo is out. Then back to 5,000 mile oil changes. Note that VW does not specify a "severe" cycle for the turbos. Thus they specify 5,000 miles for turbo, 10,000 miles for nonturbo. So 5,000 miles is the LIMIT...they think it is equal to 10,000 miles on a non-turbo, and how do you feel about 10,000 miles. In other words, there are human years, dog years, and turbo years. Don't even think about stretching the recommended change interval....

    Don't ever use dino oil in turbo VW/Audi engines!
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    Many thanks. That is a good selection of sites.

    No wonder I was having trouble searching! It helps to spell Magnuson correctly. >:o}
  • banxbanx Member Posts: 6
    You have written "Don't ever use dino oil in turbo VW/Audi engines!" I had written in a previous reply in this thread that I have the Audi 2.7T engine that has twin turbos ('01 S4). I stated that the car's manual "does not specifically state that synthetic oil needs to be used. I've had the oil changed every 5K miles (vs. 10K in owner's manual) at the dealer, bringing in my own 5w-30 regular, dino oil, not synthetic. I have over 60K miles and have not had any problems with the engine or the turbos." The car requires 0w-30 or 5w-30 oil according to the manual. This dealer only uses 10w-30 oil (dino) which is why I bring in my own weight of oil. I don't think synthetic oil is necessary for this particular turbo engine, based on my experiences. However, I don't race the car on weekends and just use it as a normal, everyday commuter car.
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    spend that kind of money on a car like that, only to go cheap on the oil, anyway?

    Makes no sense to me.
  • colecole Member Posts: 67
    Well, I dropped off the car Friday (9/17) morning for them to "fit it in" if the could. I got a call late Friday stating that they did believe I had an oil sludging problem. I told him that I couldn't prove that I changed the oil at recommended intervals (b/c of some DIY and going to different quickie places). The Service Associate said that he'd talk to his Service Manager today (9/20) to see what they could do.

    In the 60k miles that I've had this car, I've only once gone over the 5,000 mile interval, and it was done at about 6,000 miles. I've always used the recommended oil (I pull the owners manual everytime I go for a change). We've been wanting to trade this car in for a while and were just waiting for the oil light issue to be taken care of. So, at this point, if an oil pump and pickup change gets rid of the light, that's what we'll do.

    I'm not sure if I mentioned this before, but I reported an intermittent oil pressure light at the end of July/beginning of August (I picked the car up on August 8) and was told that I just needed to switch my oil filter to an Audi filter. The letter from Audi of America was issued at the same time. Even if I can't prove the 5,000 mile oil changes, doesn't the dealer have some culpability for the damage caused between then and now?
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    Does your owners manual reference any of the VW requirement specs, like 502.00? That is the way they "slip in" the synthetic requirement.
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Yup, 0patience, it was a Ford 200CI inline six. It was not cared for, as I learned over time. I will say this, in spite of all the lady did to it, I was able to get it back into shape without too much wallet damage. Seems she not only was doing oil changes at about every 10K or six months, it had been overheated after blowing a heater hose and refilling with straight water. Just too many things on this '66 pointed to poor care.

    And you guys are right about the oil quality. When multigrade oil first went big time in the south, I tried running 10W30 in a '73 Olds 350 during the summer in Houston. In less than 2K miles, the oil light would start flickering at idle as the viscosity had gone to that of water. Castrol GTX 20W50 became available, and all was once again right with the world.

    My current commuter is a Hyundai Elantra with 38K. It has had oil changes every 3-4K using Hyundai filters and Castrol GTX 10W30. On the last oil change I measured the drained oil, allowed for what was in the filter, and estimate about 1/4 quart usage, tops. Inspection of the OHV train showed no varnish or sludge. The dealership has one of the top Hyundai mechanics in Texas, and at my first oil change I mentioned to him that I had used Valvoline 10W30 and asked his opinion. He replied that on that engine, it was a good choice IF CASTROL 10W30 WASN'T AVAILABLE. Needless to say, I took his word for it. Don't know why I tried the Valvoline. It is a good oil, no doubt, but I have used GTX since the early 70's and have never, in any engine whether 4, 6, or 8 cylinder, had an oil related problem.

    Jim
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    You might want to look into Chevron/Havoline. There is ample evidence that current mineral oils just don't get any better than this corporate combo of old names with new refining technology.
  • colecole Member Posts: 67
    For those of you waiting with baited breath to see how this turned out...

    Good News/Bad News:

    I do have the oil sludge problem and it's going to cost $800 to replace the oil pan and oil pump. The good news is that there's no apparent engine damage.

    Over the course of the last 2 years, I could have made the monthly payments on a brand new FX35 for what I've been adding to my Audi payment via maintenance/repairs. I've decided that the A4 is gone as soon as the repairs are done.

    In 2 years, I've replaced the timing belt, catalytic converter, tie rods on both front tires, oil pan, oil pump, 3 door trim pieces (from rusting out due to poor design) and others.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    "There is ample evidence that current mineral oils just don't get any better than this corporate combo of old names with new refining technology. "

    I appreciate the advice. Is there a reference somewhere as to the quality of the oils here. I happen to have bought a bunch of both in last 6 months.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    There used to be a lively set of oil related topics going full bore on Edmunds. Somewhere along the line, maybe a year ago or so, it played out.
  • micwebmicweb Member Posts: 1,617
    You should probably still Auto RX it, unless the dealer will be flushing the engine.

    In terms of your cost, I think its very low, I paid $500 to replace the oil pan on my prior VW Golf because Walmart eventually stripped the threads on the drain plug during oil changes there. For you to pay only an extra $300 for the oil pump seems like a steal - at least I put more mechanical value on a pump than on a pan.

    European vehicles seem to require more maintenance and repairs. They aren't lemons, but they aren't Japanese either. On the other hand, there is a lot of added value in terms of side curtain air bags, stability control, and ergonomics that the Japanese haven't got down pat.

    I came back to VW after being made at my 2001 Golf for similar reasons as you - basically, the cars are annoyingly high maintenance. I hope that when the dust settles and you are less angry you will reconsider VW/Audi in the future...maybe after you have the FX35 the other side of the lawn won't look quite so green as it does now.

    Good luck!
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