I worry about human error too. One oil change shop: (1) put in the wrong viscosity oil (they wrote in up correctly and cheerfully replaced the oil; another (2) overfilled two quarts (a rare time I DIDN'T check the dipstick right after); another (3) stripped my oil pan bolt by overtightening; another (4) ran out of Honda washers and used permatex (had to buy a new bolt for the next oil change, but at least didn't have to buy a new pan); another (5)toasted an old girl friends Honda oil pan by overtightening; another (6) incorrectly replace a bottom shield on a VW (which I noticed and had them fix).
I learned from these experiences to double check oil brand and viscosity (in a friendly way), to check the dipstick, and to (in a friendly way) ask them not to overtighten the drain bolt since I had a bad experience before.
I ask them to NEVER add brake fluid (Walmart WON'T as a matter of policy) because I worry about contaminated fluid and/or contamination during the top off (plus I like to see the fluid level to gauge brake pad wear - old fashioned, but it works).
Finally, I check my own tire pressure, it is more accurate to do cold on my own reliable gauge. But on this point, since hardly any owners do it, I side with the shops (who pump everything to 35 psi to be safe).
BUT none of this compares to watching a dental assistant walk in a dirty tray of dental implements for autoclaving, taking out the old tray, and watching another assistant a few minutes later pick up the dirty tray (instead of the cleaned tray) to take out for use!
Since then, I only go to dentists that seal their implements in plastic bags with "cooked" color change dots on them, that positively indicated whether the tools have been 'claved or not.
Don't underestimate human error. Look at the space shuttle.
I worked at a couple different quick lube type places through high school and college. I was an assistant manager for one of the larger oil change franchises.
There are checks built into doing an oil change.
#1. Most good oil change workers know the oil capacity of most engines. If they don't, they can look it up, or guess and check, or ASK somebody. Most places have digital oil guns. Under filling or over filling an engine with oil is a case of somebody being really irresponsible.
#2. Most of the oil change franchises have specific procedures that employees are supposed to follow to prevent "mistakes" and "accidents". If the shop is well run, and the employees follow the rules, then there really is no room for error. You are supposed to double check every step of the oil change. Check the old filter. Does it still have the gasket? Check the drain plug. Is it tight? Be easy, not too tight. Confirm the fitting count from the upper bay guy. Grease all the fittings. Check all gear boxes. etc, etc.
Having said that, I would DEFINITELY check the work done by anybody, especially a quick lube type place. When it's 95 degrees and humid, and the "pit" guy has already done 67 oil changes before you, he is more prone to miss some of the rules......or maybe he's hung over and feels like sleeping instead of changing your pain in the [non-permissible content removed] oil filter.
I don't need to double check anybody's oil change work because I do it myself. After seeing first hand how many unbelievable ways a simple procedure can be screwed up, I'm too paranoid to let anyone else touch it, even the dealer.
they can lose their licenses for something like that.
my dentist office disinfects like my hospital does... surface cleaning, truss up the tray in a towel, and cook 'em (or gas 'em with ETO is more common in a hospital, but the interlocks, venting, and precautions are too much for a smaller type facility) in the towel. they unwrap before me.... no, the tools that is, what were you thinking?? :-D
Thought you folks would like to know the outcome of the engine that I showed the piston on. What happened was that they had the oil changed at a service station, they installed the wrong filter and after 20 miles, the filter gasket let loose and dumped the oil. After to a shop to have it checked, the service station pulled the engine and refused to fix the problem. The people went to their insurance company to see what could be done. I was called in to look at the engine and the vehicle and the engine was brought to me. After a teardown investigation, as the piston showed, there was clearly oil starvation and the insurance company agreed to pay for the repairs. How they will deal with the service station, I am not certain, but the people will have their vehicle back running in a couple weeks. The cylinders have to be bored, the crankshaft will have to be replaced and pretty much a major overhaul on the engine will be done. One thing that I cannot impress enough to folks if they have this kind of thing happen, is to document everything. Take pictures and get everything in writing. If you are not happy with the outcome, get a second opinion and get your insurance company involved if you have full coverage. While not all insurance companies will cover this kind of thing, alot of them will.
Went to have the oil changed at my Mazda dealership. As I'm looking over the receipt, I notice they used 10W30 oil when the owner's manual calls for 5W20. I bring this up to my "service advisor". He informs me that they can't find any 5W20 anywhere. That's weird since I've seen it everywhere.
Question I have is should I be concerned about putting a different oil designation than what the manual calls for...particularly given this is a rotary engine?
Who uses 10-30 anymore except do-it-yourself'ers? 5-30 is what I'd expect if they don't have 5-20.
Maybe their bulk oil supplier doesn't ship 5-20 in bulk oil. Maybe they don't want to dedicate a line to 5-20 (and get rid of the 10-30?). Maybe they don't like to use bottled oil due to bottle disposal issues or higher costs.
The Honda express lane oil changer (at a Honda dealer I used to go to) had 5-20 on tap (through a hose) plus 5-30 (older Hondas, other brand cars they serviced- they didn't limit themselves to Hondas, since they were part of a chain of dealers).
Like you said 5-20 is everywhere now.
Personally I don't think 10-30 is a bad alternative. It isn't as fuel efficient, but has a narrower viscosity range and might be better in a high performance car like the RX8. Only issue would be using it in winter in a snow state. I'd rather have the 5-30 or even 5-20. On the other hand it's easy to just let the car warm up a minute or two longer before driving off, after sitting in the cold all night. It's not like they put 20-50.
I was just reading that Mazda (again) overstated the horsepower on their cars. The RX8 is the new Mazda to be affected. The article stated they would provide a full refund on the car or a $500 gift card and free service maintenance for the entire length of warranty.
fish....I'm very aware of the Mazda offer. I'm one (of the few) they made the offer to. I absolutely love the car and don't plan on sending it back. It's very fast and the performance of my car hasn't changed just because Mazda changed a HP number on the MSRP sticker. It really is an unbelievable car and probably one of the best all around performing cars I've ever owned (including a couple of BMWs). Build quality and quality of materials are superb. Then there's the rotary.....sublime! Consequently, I opted for the $500 and free maintenance as opposed to the buy back.
micweb.....My disappointment is with my dealer's service dept. I suspect what you say is correct....that they want to stick to one brand or one multi-weight oil that they buy in bulk. That doesn't forgive the fact that they are purposely going against what Mazda recommends regarding oil. I doubt any sort of problems would arise using 10W30 over 5W20, but why use something Mazda doesn't recommend?
Part of my dissatisfaction is a result of the dealer "nickling" me on another warranty issue. I had a small piece break on my center console which kept it from opening. They wanted to charge me $20 to replace it since they said it broke because I abused the console lid. Now, understand, I opened and closed this lid once when it broke....didn't slam it nor abuse it in any way. I gave them a lot of pushback when they tried to charge me and finally got the charge waived.
The oil change issue just added to my "nickel and dime" impression of this dealer.
I'll be looking for a new dealer for the rest of my maintenance.
Dealers in California charge you $59 just for driving by, except when you have oil change coupons or use a fast lube lane. For example, standard practice at Toyota and Honda dealers in the San Jose area is to package an oil change with a tire rotation - no "29 point inspection" or anything actually useful - call it a "minor service" - and nick you $79 for it.
I won't go so far as to call you overly thrifty for declining to pay $20 for their repair (I know, it's the principle) but I shudder to think what they might do, short of sugar in the gas tank, to get back at you for bruising their ego. IF I had time to think about it before they tried to nick me, I probably would have said something like "naw, I didn't do it, but if Mazda is busting your chops on this type of warranty issue, sure I'll pay and thanks for keeping it reasonable."
That having been said, I have been known to blow a gasket (mine, not the cars) at dealers, too. Esp. when they blatantly disregard the owners manual in terms of service requirements and want you to do 30,000 mile services at 15,000 miles, 60,000 mile services at 30,000 miles, and otherwise do more work than the manufacturer recommends.
you have to do the 30,000 service every three months, unless the boat chips a propeller, in which case it's on demand. got to keep the profit up!
some of these guys even go beyond the "severe" service sheet in recommending, sometimes very theatrically, you have your pistons washed and the dashboard bulbs rotated every year.
the few times somebody has tried that on me, I have gone one better... and rotated garages
I also have noticed that as manufacturers have gone to lighter and lighter oils for the new cars, the dealer service departments have been very reluctant to keep up. Why resist so hard just having the oil the manufacturer recommends? I don't WANT to put 10-30 in my new car that recommends 5-30, so that every sub-freezing morning for the next three months my engine can scream to life with no oil circulation. And it seems to me that a dealer should have available the oil recommended for each model. It is not like there are 20 of them or anything.
On the flip side, it would be nice if they could have alternative weights available for an additional charge, if you ask for them. I ask for 10-40 for my very old truck, because it slows oil consumption a little, and this truck was spec'd for 10-30 originally anyway...well the dealer has made such a fuss over the years that they would need an extra day or more to "find" 10-40, I have just gotten into the habit of bringing it with me from the parts store and leaving it in a bag on the passenger seat. You would think 10-40 was some exotic weight or something.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
if your in an area that rarely gets below freezing, 10w30 is fine. fyi, don't use synthetic in that rotary rx8, I read that mazda specifically warns against it. I think another reason why the dealer doesn't want to use the 5w20, it's expensive compared to the 5w30 or 10w30. I heard 5w20 is a synthetic blend
there is dino 5-20, the new Hondas use it as do the Ford Focuses. I don't think it should matter if the price of the 5-20 is higher - if the manufacturer specifies it for use, the dealers should have it, and they can raise the price for the oil change if need be. Does that seem unreasonable?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
if the car is specced for 5w-20, that's what it should get unless extraordinary circumstances apply, such as professional racing or extreme temperature conditions. race cars and components are NOT warranted in any way, and the manual should advise what extreme temperature conditions call for lighter or heavier oil. if the dealers can't get it done, and they don't correct it after you have a talk with the service manager, write Zone about this.
Although the past subject has been motor oil, one big item that has made the news around here is using the incorrect ATF in Chrysler vehicles...especially the minivans.
I know its been an accepted thing to do, but a lot of the quick oil change shops have typically been using Dexron type-3 in Chrysler automatics. Chrysler specifies ATF+3, or for newer vehicles, ATF+4. Both ATF+3 & 4 are friction modified, Dexron-Mercon is not.
A large number of people have been successfully sueing these quick oil places, and even transmission repair shops. We've had three people we know get settlements after having a transmission flush at a service center that later led to costly transmission repairs.
I didn't know that there was a second Mopar grade until this summer, when I had to help somebody out with nothing but first gear on the road, which didn't move their camping trailer up hills very nicely in a 65-mph zone. turns out they didn't bother mentioning that their speedo was not indicating and they had flashing lights until I was back from an ATF-3+ run, so it didn't do 'em much good.
but if I would have poured some kind of OffulSlop (tm) in their caravan instead of ATF-3+, it would not have been very neighborly.
if I can get around to chasing the standards, hell, anybody can. if IffyOilChange can't, fie on them and their relatives all the way back to the first snake. it's elementary to get the fluid types right, and if there is any doubt, don't hink around with it.
I have had two oil changes performed by me dealer on my 2003 Passat wagon. Each time, they used 10W30, which is NOT what the manual says. The last time I asked, they said it didn't hurt the engine...but then why is the manual so adamant.
Anyway, I have opted to stop taking the car to the dealer for oil changes because I cannot trust them to do the right thing.
I have searched far and wide for 5w40 motor oil. It's VERY hard to find stocked in stores. I found some 5W40 Shell Rotella, but when I checked the Edmunds Passat discussions, it seemed that Rotella IS NOT recommended for Passats. However, I lucked out when I called my local NAPA store. They have Valvoline 5W40 synthetic in stock. Yippee. It ain't cheap ($4.49 a quart), but it's what the car needs.
I was able to find it online at www.oil-store.com (another tip from an Edmunds user), but I didn't want to pay shipping if I could avoid it.
For oil filters, I have found that the easiest thing to do is go to my VW dealer parts counter and get them from there.
We also have a 99 Passat V6, but it accepts a much broader range of oils, so getting oil for it has not been a problem. I usually use 10W30 energy conserving oil - Chevron brand (from Costco). Too bad Costco doesn't stock 5w40. Perhaps it will become more popular over time.
So that's my story. Thankfully, going forward, my Passat will have the proper 5W40 oil!
I've got an 03 Passat, too. There's a supplement to the owner's manual (I've read the text of it on another forum - Edmunds rules prevent me from revealing the name) that says you don't have to use 5w-40. If that grade is unavailable, you can use 5w-30. However, most available 5w-30 grades don't meet any of the VW standards other than the API standard.
Here's a readily available alternative: Mobil 1 0w-40. It meets all of the VW specs. Check it out at mobil1.com. Available at Autozone stores everywhere and rumored to be available at Walmart (I don't get out to Wally world that often, so I can't vouch for it).
I look at my automotive costs on a per mile basis. Using synth isn't killing me cost-wise, and since I pass a NAPA store on my way to work, Valvoline Synpower 5w-40 is what I use. It's a tad more than Walmart's prices, but about the same or a little cheaper than Autozone. YMMV.
I had the same problem with my Toyota dealer, they did not even stock the weight of oil recommneded for my car and I contacted Toyota cnetral and complained. Soon after the dealer put out a notice that the correct weight was now in inventory. Dealers buy the cheapest bulk oil they can find wnd the weight is secondary to price.
You can also ask them to sign a statement that if anything should happen to the engine by them using the wrong weight they will cover it. See how soon they get the correct weight.
I am writing on behalf of one of my co-workers. We both own 2004 Hyundai Sonata's. We also had scheduled both of our oil change appointments today.
My car came out okay but the dealer had made a catastrophic mistake with his. They forgot to put oil back in after draining the old oil out. He got about 2 miles down the road and the low oil light came on. Instead of pulling over he continued to limp it back to the dealership. He made it but it ceased up in the service bay.
Luckly the dealer was being very good about it. The dealer said they could put in a new motor in it or they can replace the car with out any extra charge. Since it is brand new with only 1200 miles on it he opted for the new car. Problem his he has to wait until they get one off the boat so they put him in a rental.
I must say the dealership is being very good and honest about replacing the car. You do hear about dealers forgeting to put oil back in but you very rarely hear about a dealership putting you in a new car. He even got a call from the dealership owner appoligizing and explaining how the process is going to work.
The process seems simple. They will be taking in his old car in trade and then they will put him in a brand new 04. He will not have to pay anything.
I was kind of wondering how the dealer would pay for this. You explained it when you said the sales department will charge the loss against the service department's P&L statement.
It might not be as bad as it sounds for the dealer. They will probably take his old car and drop a new engine in it and sale it as used. Since it only has 1,200 miles on it it should be worth almost as much as a new one. At least on the retail side. They might even be able to get Hyundai to cover the new engine under warrantee so they will not have to pay for that either.
Still you don't here about it every day. Most dealers would only do the minimum legal requirements and replace the engine.
I really enjoy doing business with this dealer. Both the sales and service departments are very honest. I will not let this problem detract me from getting work done there.
the dealer lost an engine and the new profit on one car. it's still a pretty good hit because somebody in service didn't check the dipstick before closing the hood.
which is really what it comes down to.
I suspect a memo will be posted in the lunchroom :0
that would try to get that covered under warranty - that's asking for trouble and guarantees major sanctions if caught.
Factor in the cost of the engine, plus the initial depreciation on the car - it was already titled. On a 2004 Sonata, ballpark would be $5,000 depreciation and a $3,000 engine, plus labor. It's about a $9,000 hit.
The 1200 miles is the same as 10,000 miles after a car has been titled - the depreciation hits once the paperwork is done.
maybe it was a good thing he limped it back to the dealer where it seized.otherwise if he would have stopped once the light went on ,the dealer would have towed it back,refilled the crankcase and lie to you saying no harm came to the engine.
Do you know the dealer? This dealership manager wouldn't treat a customer like that - please don't make that assumption based solely on a (your) bad attitude towards dealerships.
Unfortunately, msot dealer service managers will fall into the same trap as used car salesmen. No matter how good you are you are trapped by the bad reputations of the few. However, having lived on this planet a long time and dealt with too many service managers, yep, that would be my fear as well. I don't trust anyone anymore with my vehicles, 99% of the shops are out to screw you unless you look over their shoulders and can back up claims with evidence.
Sorry, you may not fall into that category but if you run with the herd be prepared to die with them.
just look around and read the many posts on edmunds.there are far more negative comments towards dealerships than positive.do you honestly feel the dealership would replace that engine if it still ran quietly with just refilling the crankcase.even though it lifespan was shortened.i think not.
driftracer, I know that you see this as an attack on ALL dealerships, but you have to admit, the larger percentage of them are putting a black mark on the entire industry. I just pulled a large account from a Chevrolet dealership because of some problems I had. I deal with alot of different dealerships and I have to keep on top of them, or there will be problems. As a service manager, you are tied by what the owner wants. Not what you want.
I represent the mechanic industry and have to take the bad comments along with the good. The bad comments, I try and educate folks as to what the difference is between the mechanics I represent and the general industry. Do I argue that there is alot of bad apples out there in the industry? Absolutely not. There is. But while you are one person at one dealership, there are 10 out there that are not handled as well as the dealership you work at. This could be said for just about any industry, just happens that we're talking about something that happened at a dealer.
And no, there are quite a few dealers that would not have taken that route. They would have at most, replaced the engine and nothing more.
I do not agree that 99% of repair shops (Dealer or otherwise) are out to "screw" you. But, from my many years experience, I do believe that having pride in one's workmanship is sorely being missed. It has been my experience too often that my car will come back with grease all over the interior of my car. As an example or 2: On a recent visit to a local VW dealer, I was experiencing a rattle from under my car when I hit 3,000 RPM. The dealer said the heat shield was loose. So instead of replacing the sheild (since the bolt hole was stripped) they drilled a whole in the existing shield and within 1,000 miles it had come loose again. on another visit, I was experiencing a rattle in my dash. They took my dash apart and upon driving off and trying to turn my lights on I realized the switch came off in my hands. I could go on and on......
there are many good dealers out there.i just have not been fortunate to find one.i hear too many phrases that dealers use when someone has a NEW car with a problem."that's normal" or "they all do that"when someone complains their engine idles so rough their teeth chatter.those phrases really get under my skin and nobody should have to settle for that.sorry for being off topic.
"Rough Shifting, Noise, Chatter -- Standard on All Models!"
it should be up there first.
or... when one is acting up... the dealer should step up, take the warranty money the manufacturer has stashed in a vault, and fix the bleedin' thing. if not, they should display the carmaker's "Stinkin' Weasel Award" at the receptionist's desk.
Let's see. in the past two years radiator replaced at Toyota, coolant all over the engine which was failed to wash off. Even the service rep wqas embarrased (he should have assured it was done right)Upon getting it home a hose clamp was leaking, I fixed that myself. Recently Ford dealer a coolant flush, upon pick up steam coming from under hood, (two trips within 30 min) failed to locate the service rep and no one else seemed to care about my problem either again, poor workmanship, failed to properly test after job, coolant all over the place. Isuzu recently, alternator belt bad, technician said I should replace other two as did the service rep. I confronted them as to why as they looked good to me before bringing it in. Their reply, not OEM and we don't like aftermarket parts. Should I go on. I have one independent I trust but even he screwed up mounting four new tires recently, took four (yes four) return trips to get the tires to stop leaking air. Only dealer I trust now, out of five different cars is the Buick, so far way above board. Dealerships, independents, they simply do not have the time under their current mode of operation to do the job right, it is simply get it done and out the door and no one checks to see it is done correctly.
So yes, I am definitely jaded, the cynic etc. Service reps and techinicians are paid a commission to sell more parts and service and like the corporate CEOs paid bonuses on stock value they go all out to screw people becasue that is how they make more money. Perhaps you are the exception. Unfortunately I will never own a Honda, I refuse to own a vehicle where I am tied into Honda fluids, parts etc where no alternative is availaible. Same is true of Toyota but my current one is 10 years old and that was not true back then.
I was a field service representative for Buick Motor Division back in the '60s. One of my main jobs was to address customer complaints about service issues. I would travel to the various dealerships and meet with very angry customers. A truly thrilling experience! There were a mixture of reasons behind these angry customers. Sometimes it was incompetent or incomplete dealer service. Sometimes it was a customer with unreasonable expectations. And sometimes it was a customer that was trying to get something repaired that was the fault of the customer. And still some cases involved intermittent or hard to diagnose problems.
In driftracers defense, there are good stores and bad stores. In my experience the good Buick stores were those that had a concentrated service department (not shared with another GM division), smaller dealerships, especially those in more rural settings. Just about anytime a dealership sold Buick and Chevrolet, we had more complaints and had a higher percentage of them "on watch," meaning we had them tag 100% of returned warrantee parts. It also meant they were on warrantee pre-approval, either for items, or usually by dollar amount.
In the case of an engine seizure, back then we usually had to field inspect the car. Engine failures, while much more common in those days, was usually not a inherent problem for Buick motors and unlike most Chevrolet dealerships, Buick dealers didn't stock a short-block.
I felt then and I still do feel that those dealerships that were "high volume" stores had less customer oriented service departments. These are the ones that usually did more radio and TV advertising, too. You have got to make money to stay in business. Many dealers that I've known pay a lot more attention to the front-end of the store, meaning sales. Some have a more balanced approach. There's an old saying about the cheap price is soon forgotten after you realize the true quality of what you've bought. Those dealers that will sell you the same vehicle for another $200-400 less than somebody else needs to make up the margin somewhere, and its usually at the back-end of the sale.
First of all, I don't really care if you choose to never own a Honda. Just be aware that you don't have to buy genuine Honda fluids and parts. These are, of course, reccommended like any car but as long as parts and fluids meet Honda specs they are OK to use. It is pretty common, however that most independants that work on Hondas use the factory stuff because of their experiences with some of the aftermarket products.
I would like to think that your experiences are unusual. I would also like to think that the vast majority of shops and technicans still take pride in their work and have ethics.
I have a 2000 Toyota Corolla. Two days ago I went to the Toyota Dealer for oil change. The mileage on my car according to the invoice was 20593 miles. I drove the car back to home and parked it. After 2 hours I drove to a local store. On the way home I noticed that the oil warning light turned red, and we heard clicking sound from the engine. I pulled over. I noticed an oil leak under the car then I checked the oil level dipstick, which was totally dry. A closer look showed that the oil drain plug was missing. As it was late I towed the car to the dealer the next day. What should I request from them? I new engine, a new car and what steps should I take? Thanks
Even the best of shop can have a mishap. The "right thing" to do would be to replace the engine. Just be nice and politely but firmly request them to do this.
I think that the owners manual on new Hondas almost mandate the use of Honda ATF, gear oils and coolant for warranty purposes. IF they do not they say other fluid acceptable if Honda not available but replace ASAP with Honda.
Based upon the comments on this thread it appears taht most posters lean towards my attitude of service at car dealerships. Sorry, but they just don't have the time to do it right or rather the time to check to see that it is done correctly.
I will bet that the poster with the Toyota will be told, hey we refilled it with oil, it sounds and runs fine and that is it. I do hope that if he encounters that he will at least get a complete check up., compression test etc. and ask for a free extended warranty to cover their error.
but this is another reason why I ALWAYS double-check the oil level and make sure the oil cap and dipstick are where they belong, not resting on a valve cover or on a shelf at the guy's workstation.
in both directions. I've seen some great service and some real losers over the years, both from indie shops and dealerships. But let's face it, no one remembers when they get good or at least adequate service...it's human nature.
Here's a story: My mother-in-law, who is not financially well over, took her old Dodge Colt to an indie for an oil change. They left the cap off the engine. She called me afterward to ask "why is my engine smoking?" I find the cap off and tell her to go back and have them top off the engine and clean up the mess (oil was everywhere). They topped it off and handed a 70 year old woman a can of engine cleaner! You gotta be kidding me! She bought me the can - I didn't clean the engine. I figured they would work on it again, let them deal with the mess (and a mess it was - you couldn't touch anything without getting completely greasy). Screw 'em.
Here's another story...my wife drives a Honda. When it came due for state inspection last year, I was very stressed and had limited time since my mom had recently passed away and I was cleaning out her house and handling the estate. We took the car to a dealer that I frequent for parts but not for service (they were on the way to my mother's). I get the word the car needs front brakes (low but not cutting the rotor) - no problem, the car had 48,000 miles and the front brakes had never been touched. I didn't inquire about the rotors. I go to pick up the car and they tell me they cut the rotors (now, I'm not a big fan of doing that - I'd rather just put on new rotors - dates back to my VW experiences). "Okay, whatever, but I would have gladly paid for the new rotors."
This year I go to my regular dealership for inspection - guess what, the car needs front brakes AGAIN! The first thing the service advisor says, "Did you replace this pads yourself? These rotors should have been replaced, not cut." "Who cut these for you? It wasn't done right." I say, "no, no, no, here's the Honda receipt." Suddenly the tune changed....
It turns out the original dealer cut the rotors improperly...leaving about one third of the inside surface uncut on both rotors. So that screw up cost me another set of pads and installation for no reason. I ask, "Will you back me up on arguing with the other Honda store to recover the cost of the job and pads?" Nope! Honor among thieves.
Comments
I learned from these experiences to double check oil brand and viscosity (in a friendly way), to check the dipstick, and to (in a friendly way) ask them not to overtighten the drain bolt since I had a bad experience before.
I ask them to NEVER add brake fluid (Walmart WON'T as a matter of policy) because I worry about contaminated fluid and/or contamination during the top off (plus I like to see the fluid level to gauge brake pad wear - old fashioned, but it works).
Finally, I check my own tire pressure, it is more accurate to do cold on my own reliable gauge. But on this point, since hardly any owners do it, I side with the shops (who pump everything to 35 psi to be safe).
BUT none of this compares to watching a dental assistant walk in a dirty tray of dental implements for autoclaving, taking out the old tray, and watching another assistant a few minutes later pick up the dirty tray (instead of the cleaned tray) to take out for use!
Since then, I only go to dentists that seal their implements in plastic bags with "cooked" color change dots on them, that positively indicated whether the tools have been 'claved or not.
Don't underestimate human error. Look at the space shuttle.
There are checks built into doing an oil change.
#1. Most good oil change workers know the oil capacity of most engines. If they don't, they can look it up, or guess and check, or ASK somebody. Most places have digital oil guns. Under filling or over filling an engine with oil is a case of somebody being really irresponsible.
#2. Most of the oil change franchises have specific procedures that employees are supposed to follow to prevent "mistakes" and "accidents". If the shop is well run, and the employees follow the rules, then there really is no room for error. You are supposed to double check every step of the oil change. Check the old filter. Does it still have the gasket? Check the drain plug. Is it tight? Be easy, not too tight. Confirm the fitting count from the upper bay guy. Grease all the fittings. Check all gear boxes. etc, etc.
Having said that, I would DEFINITELY check the work done by anybody, especially a quick lube type place. When it's 95 degrees and humid, and the "pit" guy has already done 67 oil changes before you, he is more prone to miss some of the rules......or maybe he's hung over and feels like sleeping instead of changing your pain in the [non-permissible content removed] oil filter.
I don't need to double check anybody's oil change work because I do it myself. After seeing first hand how many unbelievable ways a simple procedure can be screwed up, I'm too paranoid to let anyone else touch it, even the dealer.
my dentist office disinfects like my hospital does... surface cleaning, truss up the tray in a towel, and cook 'em (or gas 'em with ETO is more common in a hospital, but the interlocks, venting, and precautions are too much for a smaller type facility) in the towel. they unwrap before me.... no, the tools that is, what were you thinking?? :-D
What happened was that they had the oil changed at a service station, they installed the wrong filter and after 20 miles, the filter gasket let loose and dumped the oil. After to a shop to have it checked, the service station pulled the engine and refused to fix the problem. The people went to their insurance company to see what could be done. I was called in to look at the engine and the vehicle and the engine was brought to me.
After a teardown investigation, as the piston showed, there was clearly oil starvation and the insurance company agreed to pay for the repairs.
How they will deal with the service station, I am not certain, but the people will have their vehicle back running in a couple weeks.
The cylinders have to be bored, the crankshaft will have to be replaced and pretty much a major overhaul on the engine will be done.
One thing that I cannot impress enough to folks if they have this kind of thing happen, is to document everything. Take pictures and get everything in writing. If you are not happy with the outcome, get a second opinion and get your insurance company involved if you have full coverage. While not all insurance companies will cover this kind of thing, alot of them will.
Went to have the oil changed at my Mazda dealership. As I'm looking over the receipt, I notice they used 10W30 oil when the owner's manual calls for 5W20. I bring this up to my "service advisor". He informs me that they can't find any 5W20 anywhere. That's weird since I've seen it everywhere.
Question I have is should I be concerned about putting a different oil designation than what the manual calls for...particularly given this is a rotary engine?
Maybe their bulk oil supplier doesn't ship 5-20 in bulk oil. Maybe they don't want to dedicate a line to 5-20 (and get rid of the 10-30?). Maybe they don't like to use bottled oil due to bottle disposal issues or higher costs.
The Honda express lane oil changer (at a Honda dealer I used to go to) had 5-20 on tap (through a hose) plus 5-30 (older Hondas, other brand cars they serviced- they didn't limit themselves to Hondas, since they were part of a chain of dealers).
Like you said 5-20 is everywhere now.
Personally I don't think 10-30 is a bad alternative. It isn't as fuel efficient, but has a narrower viscosity range and might be better in a high performance car like the RX8. Only issue would be using it in winter in a snow state. I'd rather have the 5-30 or even 5-20. On the other hand it's easy to just let the car warm up a minute or two longer before driving off, after sitting in the cold all night. It's not like they put 20-50.
Are you aware of this?
micweb.....My disappointment is with my dealer's service dept. I suspect what you say is correct....that they want to stick to one brand or one multi-weight oil that they buy in bulk. That doesn't forgive the fact that they are purposely going against what Mazda recommends regarding oil. I doubt any sort of problems would arise using 10W30 over 5W20, but why use something Mazda doesn't recommend?
Part of my dissatisfaction is a result of the dealer "nickling" me on another warranty issue. I had a small piece break on my center console which kept it from opening. They wanted to charge me $20 to replace it since they said it broke because I abused the console lid. Now, understand, I opened and closed this lid once when it broke....didn't slam it nor abuse it in any way. I gave them a lot of pushback when they tried to charge me and finally got the charge waived.
The oil change issue just added to my "nickel and dime" impression of this dealer.
I'll be looking for a new dealer for the rest of my maintenance.
I won't go so far as to call you overly thrifty for declining to pay $20 for their repair (I know, it's the principle) but I shudder to think what they might do, short of sugar in the gas tank, to get back at you for bruising their ego. IF I had time to think about it before they tried to nick me, I probably would have said something like "naw, I didn't do it, but if Mazda is busting your chops on this type of warranty issue, sure I'll pay and thanks for keeping it reasonable."
That having been said, I have been known to blow a gasket (mine, not the cars) at dealers, too. Esp. when they blatantly disregard the owners manual in terms of service requirements and want you to do 30,000 mile services at 15,000 miles, 60,000 mile services at 30,000 miles, and otherwise do more work than the manufacturer recommends.
some of these guys even go beyond the "severe" service sheet in recommending, sometimes very theatrically, you have your pistons washed and the dashboard bulbs rotated every year.
the few times somebody has tried that on me, I have gone one better... and rotated garages
On the flip side, it would be nice if they could have alternative weights available for an additional charge, if you ask for them. I ask for 10-40 for my very old truck, because it slows oil consumption a little, and this truck was spec'd for 10-30 originally anyway...well the dealer has made such a fuss over the years that they would need an extra day or more to "find" 10-40, I have just gotten into the habit of bringing it with me from the parts store and leaving it in a bag on the passenger seat. You would think 10-40 was some exotic weight or something.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I know its been an accepted thing to do, but a lot of the quick oil change shops have typically been using Dexron type-3 in Chrysler automatics. Chrysler specifies ATF+3, or for newer vehicles, ATF+4. Both ATF+3 & 4 are friction modified, Dexron-Mercon is not.
A large number of people have been successfully sueing these quick oil places, and even transmission repair shops. We've had three people we know get settlements after having a transmission flush at a service center that later led to costly transmission repairs.
Regards,
Dusty
but if I would have poured some kind of OffulSlop (tm) in their caravan instead of ATF-3+, it would not have been very neighborly.
if I can get around to chasing the standards, hell, anybody can. if IffyOilChange can't, fie on them and their relatives all the way back to the first snake. it's elementary to get the fluid types right, and if there is any doubt, don't hink around with it.
Anyway, I have opted to stop taking the car to the dealer for oil changes because I cannot trust them to do the right thing.
I have searched far and wide for 5w40 motor oil. It's VERY hard to find stocked in stores. I found some 5W40 Shell Rotella, but when I checked the Edmunds Passat discussions, it seemed that Rotella IS NOT recommended for Passats. However, I lucked out when I called my local NAPA store. They have Valvoline 5W40 synthetic in stock. Yippee. It ain't cheap ($4.49 a quart), but it's what the car needs.
I was able to find it online at www.oil-store.com (another tip from an Edmunds user), but I didn't want to pay shipping if I could avoid it.
For oil filters, I have found that the easiest thing to do is go to my VW dealer parts counter and get them from there.
We also have a 99 Passat V6, but it accepts a much broader range of oils, so getting oil for it has not been a problem. I usually use 10W30 energy conserving oil - Chevron brand (from Costco). Too bad Costco doesn't stock 5w40. Perhaps it will become more popular over time.
So that's my story. Thankfully, going forward, my Passat will have the proper 5W40 oil!
Here's a readily available alternative: Mobil 1 0w-40. It meets all of the VW specs. Check it out at mobil1.com. Available at Autozone stores everywhere and rumored to be available at Walmart (I don't get out to Wally world that often, so I can't vouch for it).
I look at my automotive costs on a per mile basis. Using synth isn't killing me cost-wise, and since I pass a NAPA store on my way to work, Valvoline Synpower 5w-40 is what I use. It's a tad more than Walmart's prices, but about the same or a little cheaper than Autozone. YMMV.
You can also ask them to sign a statement that if anything should happen to the engine by them using the wrong weight they will cover it. See how soon they get the correct weight.
My car came out okay but the dealer had made a catastrophic mistake with his. They forgot to put oil back in after draining the old oil out. He got about 2 miles down the road and the low oil light came on. Instead of pulling over he continued to limp it back to the dealership. He made it but it ceased up in the service bay.
Luckly the dealer was being very good about it. The dealer said they could put in a new motor in it or they can replace the car with out any extra charge. Since it is brand new with only 1200 miles on it he opted for the new car. Problem his he has to wait until they get one off the boat so they put him in a rental.
I must say the dealership is being very good and honest about replacing the car. You do hear about dealers forgeting to put oil back in but you very rarely hear about a dealership putting you in a new car. He even got a call from the dealership owner appoligizing and explaining how the process is going to work.
The process seems simple. They will be taking in his old car in trade and then they will put him in a brand new 04. He will not have to pay anything.
I'm a Hyundai dealership sales manager - I would have done the same thing. I would HOPE any dealer would.
It might not be as bad as it sounds for the dealer. They will probably take his old car and drop a new engine in it and sale it as used. Since it only has 1,200 miles on it it should be worth almost as much as a new one. At least on the retail side. They might even be able to get Hyundai to cover the new engine under warrantee so they will not have to pay for that either.
Still you don't here about it every day. Most dealers would only do the minimum legal requirements and replace the engine.
I really enjoy doing business with this dealer. Both the sales and service departments are very honest. I will not let this problem detract me from getting work done there.
which is really what it comes down to.
I suspect a memo will be posted in the lunchroom :0
Factor in the cost of the engine, plus the initial depreciation on the car - it was already titled. On a 2004 Sonata, ballpark would be $5,000 depreciation and a $3,000 engine, plus labor. It's about a $9,000 hit.
The 1200 miles is the same as 10,000 miles after a car has been titled - the depreciation hits once the paperwork is done.
Sorry, you may not fall into that category but if you run with the herd be prepared to die with them.
My opinion, my dealership to run. That's how things work on my watch. Your mileage may vary.
I know that you see this as an attack on ALL dealerships, but you have to admit, the larger percentage of them are putting a black mark on the entire industry.
I just pulled a large account from a Chevrolet dealership because of some problems I had. I deal with alot of different dealerships and I have to keep on top of them, or there will be problems.
As a service manager, you are tied by what the owner wants. Not what you want.
I represent the mechanic industry and have to take the bad comments along with the good. The bad comments, I try and educate folks as to what the difference is between the mechanics I represent and the general industry. Do I argue that there is alot of bad apples out there in the industry? Absolutely not. There is.
But while you are one person at one dealership, there are 10 out there that are not handled as well as the dealership you work at.
This could be said for just about any industry, just happens that we're talking about something that happened at a dealer.
And no, there are quite a few dealers that would not have taken that route. They would have at most, replaced the engine and nothing more.
Are you THAT jaded against repair shops or do you only feel that way toward car dealerhsips?
I think your comment was WAY off base and an insult to the MAJORITY of shops that try to do the right thing!
And, if that dealership had opted to just replace the engine instead of the entire car there really wouldn't have anything wrong with that either.
Have pride in the work you do!!!
"Rough Shifting, Noise, Chatter -- Standard on All Models!"
it should be up there first.
or... when one is acting up... the dealer should step up, take the warranty money the manufacturer has stashed in a vault, and fix the bleedin' thing. if not, they should display the carmaker's "Stinkin' Weasel Award" at the receptionist's desk.
Recently Ford dealer a coolant flush, upon pick up steam coming from under hood, (two trips within 30 min) failed to locate the service rep and no one else seemed to care about my problem either again, poor workmanship, failed to properly test after job, coolant all over the place.
Isuzu recently, alternator belt bad, technician said I should replace other two as did the service rep. I confronted them as to why as they looked good to me before bringing it in. Their reply, not OEM and we don't like aftermarket parts.
Should I go on. I have one independent I trust but even he screwed up mounting four new tires recently, took four (yes four) return trips to get the tires to stop leaking air.
Only dealer I trust now, out of five different cars is the Buick, so far way above board.
Dealerships, independents, they simply do not have the time under their current mode of operation to do the job right, it is simply get it done and out the door and no one checks to see it is done correctly.
So yes, I am definitely jaded, the cynic etc. Service reps and techinicians are paid a commission to sell more parts and service and like the corporate CEOs paid bonuses on stock value they go all out to screw people becasue that is how they make more money. Perhaps you are the exception. Unfortunately I will never own a Honda, I refuse to own a vehicle where I am tied into Honda fluids, parts etc where no alternative is availaible. Same is true of Toyota but my current one is 10 years old and that was not true back then.
In driftracers defense, there are good stores and bad stores. In my experience the good Buick stores were those that had a concentrated service department (not shared with another GM division), smaller dealerships, especially those in more rural settings. Just about anytime a dealership sold Buick and Chevrolet, we had more complaints and had a higher percentage of them "on watch," meaning we had them tag 100% of returned warrantee parts. It also meant they were on warrantee pre-approval, either for items, or usually by dollar amount.
In the case of an engine seizure, back then we usually had to field inspect the car. Engine failures, while much more common in those days, was usually not a inherent problem for Buick motors and unlike most Chevrolet dealerships, Buick dealers didn't stock a short-block.
I felt then and I still do feel that those dealerships that were "high volume" stores had less customer oriented service departments. These are the ones that usually did more radio and TV advertising, too. You have got to make money to stay in business. Many dealers that I've known pay a lot more attention to the front-end of the store, meaning sales. Some have a more balanced approach. There's an old saying about the cheap price is soon forgotten after you realize the true quality of what you've bought. Those dealers that will sell you the same vehicle for another $200-400 less than somebody else needs to make up the margin somewhere, and its usually at the back-end of the sale.
My .002 cents.
Regards,
Dusty
I would like to think that your experiences are unusual. I would also like to think that the vast majority of shops and technicans still take pride in their work and have ethics.
Hopefully I'm right.
I drove the car back to home and parked it. After 2 hours I drove to a local store. On the way home I noticed that the oil warning light turned red, and we heard clicking sound from the engine. I pulled over. I noticed an oil leak under the car then I checked the oil level dipstick, which was totally dry. A closer look showed that the oil drain plug was missing.
As it was late I towed the car to the dealer the next day.
What should I request from them? I new engine, a new car and what steps should I take?
Thanks
Thanks
Good luck!
Based upon the comments on this thread it appears taht most posters lean towards my attitude of service at car dealerships. Sorry, but they just don't have the time to do it right or rather the time to check to see that it is done correctly.
I will bet that the poster with the Toyota will be told, hey we refilled it with oil, it sounds and runs fine and that is it. I do hope that if he encounters that he will at least get a complete check up., compression test etc. and ask for a free extended warranty to cover their error.
Here's a story: My mother-in-law, who is not financially well over, took her old Dodge Colt to an indie for an oil change. They left the cap off the engine. She called me afterward to ask "why is my engine smoking?" I find the cap off and tell her to go back and have them top off the engine and clean up the mess (oil was everywhere). They topped it off and handed a 70 year old woman a can of engine cleaner! You gotta be kidding me! She bought me the can - I didn't clean the engine. I figured they would work on it again, let them deal with the mess (and a mess it was - you couldn't touch anything without getting completely greasy). Screw 'em.
Here's another story...my wife drives a Honda. When it came due for state inspection last year, I was very stressed and had limited time since my mom had recently passed away and I was cleaning out her house and handling the estate. We took the car to a dealer that I frequent for parts but not for service (they were on the way to my mother's). I get the word the car needs front brakes (low but not cutting the rotor) - no problem, the car had 48,000 miles and the front brakes had never been touched. I didn't inquire about the rotors. I go to pick up the car and they tell me they cut the rotors (now, I'm not a big fan of doing that - I'd rather just put on new rotors - dates back to my VW experiences). "Okay, whatever, but I would have gladly paid for the new rotors."
This year I go to my regular dealership for inspection - guess what, the car needs front brakes AGAIN! The first thing the service advisor says, "Did you replace this pads yourself? These rotors should have been replaced, not cut." "Who cut these for you? It wasn't done right." I say, "no, no, no, here's the Honda receipt." Suddenly the tune changed....
It turns out the original dealer cut the rotors improperly...leaving about one third of the inside surface uncut on both rotors. So that screw up cost me another set of pads and installation for no reason. I ask, "Will you back me up on arguing with the other Honda store to recover the cost of the job and pads?" Nope! Honor among thieves.