Buying Tips - How Do I Get the Best Deal?

98camryv6

but my lie worked. doesn't that make it right? .

98camryv6

wow. i didn't know there was a prices paid forum. i'll check it out. thanks.

svofan2

I fully understand that car buying is a royal pain when it should fun to a point,but we seem to forget that the sales people as well as the owners of delerships are in business to make money. I also understand that we are all trying to limit that profit since is our hard earn money....but come on lets be fair and give the sales people a break,after all if we are really informed the damge that the sale people can cause is minimal if any..after all they have to eat na dsupport their families too..right?

98camryv6

not feeling guilty at all. i never do. its all a game and i like to win. but the reason i've been making so many calls and emails is because i live in AZ and I will be flying back to CA during Memorial wknd to buy the car. but I decided I was going to buy 3 weeks ago. So I've been itching to get into the new car. Also, I've been saving like a mad man over the past 3 years for a house in CA and I've about had it with my frugal lifestyle. Screw it. I need a toy and I'm getting one.

jipster

The story seems to change with each telling. But, I remember it as bobst presents a piece of paper with the offer on it to the salesman. He only expects the salesman not to lose, or swallow, this piece of paper on the way to deliver it to the SM. Then blah blah blah...

JIPST METHOD FOREVER!!! :P

210delray

Just putting in my 2 cents. You don't have to make up quotes to get a good deal.

Bobst does it honestly, and still saves a lot of money. Clearly, when he gets up to leave after the dealer refuses his offer, he means it. This is the key.

98camryv6

svofan2: my friends make the same argument to me. probably because they're democrats and i'm the lone republican. but when they're looking for electronics or clothing sales, they always ask me.

so to respond to your concerns, this is america. the richest country on earth. don't take this country for granted. we were given a gift and now we must use it to better ourselves and the ones around us. not buy luxury cars with 20 inch chrome when u're still renting out a dinky apt.(btw, thats my argument for everyone who complains about stupid things. and i'm not saying you were complaining. i'm rambling AGAIN).

98camryv6

it has become very apparent that myself and joe131 spend way too much time on these forums. . . .and that i'm going to have to let joe131 have the last word. so bring it. . .

snakeweasel

According to the Oxford English Dictionary the last word is "Zyxt"

mikefm58

But...if you order in the next 10 minutes, we'll send you TWO Bobst methods for the price of one! That's a savings of 19.95!! But wait, there's more!!! You'll also get the Bobst slicer and dicer, airtight storage bags, and the nose hair remover, ABSOLUTELY FREE!!!

Dont wait - call NOW!!!

Can I get a couple extra spare keys too??? Sorry I couldn't resist. And please, no one ask Bobst about spare keys.

jipster

how is it you have become so renown for this method?

Advertising and word of mouth. Someone coined the phrase, "The bobst method"... then roughly every month for the past 4 years the phrase will come up, then some greenpea will have to ask," The bobst method...what's that????"

I've always called it a "take it or leave it" offer. I guess the wording "bobst method" has more PR appeal.

98camryv6

clever. i love it.

jipster

According to the Oxford Piglatin Dictionary the last word is "Zyxt"

Yeah, but Joe was suppose to get the last word... not you. :P

98Camry you are right when you say car buying is a game. It's a game that was invented by car dealerships. Rule #1 in the game seems to be, "It's not a lie if it can't be proven".

It's not your job to weed out the good dealerships from the bad (note- there are many good dealerships and salespeople). The industry has given itself a black eye thru decades of "deceit". So, when it get's cleaned up, we the consumer can start worrying more about ethics.

Your method isn't my style, but I'm not going to pass judgment as so many others in here have done. Good luck with your car buying decision. It's refreshing to see someone enjoy the car buying experience... instead of dreading and being afraid of it.

british_rover

Yeah the ends justify the means you are just full of good advice aren't you. :sick:

tidester

Both lying and bluffing are deceitful.

Yes, they are but there is a very significant difference. In poker, e.g., players have an agreement (an informal contract of sorts) that permits and even expects bluffing. It's part of the game. In the business world there is no such agreement and we have both ethical and statutory prohibitions against lying.

In any case, we're veering a bit too far off topic so let's get back to it!

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

98camryv6

ok good point. i'm buying my 4runner next Thursday/Friday so i'll give you guys a detailed novel of everything. until then, i can't contribute much more until then. thanks guys/gals for the discussion.

plekto

In the business world there is no such agreement and we have both ethical and statutory prohibitions against lying.
***
Tell that to an auto dealership

oldfarmer50

"...how is it you have become so renown for this method?..."

Clever Marketing.

geffen

You guys must have way to much time on your hands to drive around all day to dealers and eat their free food, to me this takes the time away from sales people who are seeking serious shoppers like myself.

jmonroe

Clever Marketing.

Yeah...you and 'jipster' are right (I never thought I'd ever say 'jipster ' was right) but you can't argue with the truth or the success that guy has had with his method. Did you notice, I didn't mention him by name, he's had enough 'free press' already.

I'm just sorry I didn't go to the patent/copyright office in 1968; if I did everybody would know who I am and how I buy a car. :sick:

"I feel bad for you jmonroe" cards can be sent to: Oh, forget it this would make me feel even worse. :sick: :sick: :sick:

jmonroe

snakeweasel

In the business world there is no such agreement and we have both ethical and statutory prohibitions against lying.

ROTFLMLWHAO thanks for the good laugh.

british_rover

He didn't say they were followed.

joel0622

The current Car Biz is like Major League Baseball. In the 80's and 90's it was no big deal to take steroids. hell everyone was doing it and thats what you did to stay up with the competition. Just like unethical business practices in the car biz were.

Now nobody says they take steroids anymore until they are caught and confronted. Just like the unethical business practices at some dealerships.

Now there are only a few players who are still doing it but they tarnish the image of the entire league. Just like some dealerships with there unethical business practices.

My motto is that there are some dealerships that work very hard every day to give us all a bad name.

grandtotal

On balance I think I'd rather hear Bobst's extra spare keys story again in preference to Isellhonda's Mazda MPV with the dicky transmission story.

tidester

He didn't say they were followed.

Quite correct! We also have laws against rolling odometers back but it does happen.

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

Kirstie_H

Mike, I laughed at this one til my spleen hurt.

badboy8114

Hi All,

I was on Cars.com and found a lot of new cars left over from previous years, specifically the Dodge Grand Caravan and Chrysler Town & Country. Looking nationally, there are over 20 vans from both 2005 & 2006 still on the lots of dealerships. How do I go about pricing these? Put it this way, These dealerships are asking full MSRP as if they were 2007 models on the ad. Should I be asking a used price, which is 10-15K below new MSRP on Edmunds TMV, even with 0 miles. I plan on keeping this van for a long time, so I'm not concerned with depreciation. I checked the VIN number of some of these and sure enough, they're untitled new vans sitting on the lot. I just can't believe they haven't been able to get rid of at least their 2005 models. Has anyone heard of 2 year old new cars still not sold? -- Joe

snakeweasel

Just offer them what you think is a good price for a car thats two years old. If they say yes you have a good deal and they got rid of a car that no one seems to want. If they say no just respond with a good bye.

Has anyone heard of 2 year old new cars still not sold?

Yeah I have heard about it, I do think that asking full sticker fir them is rather foolish since they apparently haven't sold in the last two years at that price.

kiawah

Well they are not the value of 'used', because they would carry a full warranty and would have very low mileage. Think of what the average person might think about. If I came across two vehicles on a lot, both 2005 vans, one had 10K miles and one with 100 miles....I would cleary desire the 100 mile vehicle over the 10K mile vehicle at any given price (assuming equivalent trim and feature/colors). On the other hand, if I was comparing a new 2007 and a new 2005, if they were both 25K I would clearly take the 2007....so the 2005 is less desireable.

So the new 2005 has a market value somewhere in between the used 2005 and the new 2007 price, regardless of what they may have invested in it and/or sticker for. To the extent that features may change in the newer model years, it makes it even less desireable.

If you buy it and drive it off the lot, and circumstances change and you have to sell it, it's a low mileage used 2005. Or in a month you are in an accident and it is totalled....you get insurance reimbursed as a low mileage 2005 model. So in my opinion the value of the vehicle is probably closer to the used 2005 value than a new 2007, but certainly more than a 10K mileage 2005.

You won't know what they'll take for it, till you make them an offer and see their response. You could end up with a very nice deal. Good luck.

imidazol97

Those have to have a lot of rebate incentive on them from the manufacturer to the dealer.

Does some website list the information about that kind of push incentive to help the dealer dump, errr I mean sell those old vehicles.?

badboy8114

Thanks for the quick responses! Chrysler's website says the rebates are for 2007 models only, unless theres some hidden information that they can apply to 06 and 05's if they are untitled. What I'm going to try to do is take the invoice price of an 07, minus the rebate, and work around that price if I negotiate an 06 or 05. I'm assuming that there will be no rebates applied to an older model. So if i can get the dealership to come down 1-2K below a final 07 price, I would be happy with that. I get a great deal, a full 3/36 warranty, and no hassles with rebates.
Looking at an example using Edmunds TMV:
2007 Chrysler Town & Country Limited
MSRP: $37,335
Invoice: $34,138
TMV Price: $35,596
Rebate and Cash Allowance: $4,500

2005 Chrysler Town & Country Limited
Edmunds used TMV price with 5 miles
Dealer Retail: $23,004
I would consider used but with all the electronics in the Limited model, and going by reliablity ratings on Consumer Reports, I want the peace of mind with a full warranty. The huge 160 Cubic feet interior space and Stow N Go is what sold me vs. Toyota's Sienna and Honda's Odyssey.

Now, realizing that the used price doesn't include the fact that this is untitled and comes with a full warranty, I can realistically look at around $28-30K for an '05 new. If I paid at the TMV price for an '07, that would come out to $31,096 ($35,596-$4,500 rebate). Therefore $28-30K isn't out of range, at least in my opinion. The only thing left now is to send an offer to the dealer and start the numbers game!

kiawah

I'd personally by shooting lower, maybe in the 25K range. The 08's are going to be out shortly. It'll be a 3 year old model before you know it. That's 20cents a mile for the 10K miles it doesn't have on it, compared to the used 2005 value in your area.

Would be nice to get some salesmen's viewpoint..

joe131

Buy the '07 for $30,000. Forget about the '05 unless you can get it for under $24,000.

jmonroe

I just can't believe they haven't been able to get rid of at least their 2005 models.

These could very easily be demos. You’ll have to be sure to get all the facts about these vans. If they have more than 5K miles on them, I’d consider them used and negotiate from that point. I helped my mother buy a demo with 5K + miles in 1989 and I considered it a used car and was successful doing it. I would think any 2005 or 2006 still on the lot would get any dealer interested if he had someone call that was as serious as you seem to be. Since you’re plowing new ground don’t be so quick to go for their fist final price. It might be a good idea to refuse what they say is their final price and wait to see if they call back within a few days to a week. You can always call back to buy. It’s not likely you’re going to lose the van to someone else at this point.

Has anyone heard of 2 year old new cars still not sold?

I’ve heard of it but don’t know how much of a discount they are finally willing to make. If you don’t mind, stick this one out and get back to us as to how you do it. We can always use another “expert” here.

Good luck,

jmonroe

badboy8114

25K sounds even better to me! That's true about the 08's too, they're going through a whole redesign. I can imagine when those roll in they would wanna get rid of the current ones. I can always wait until the new ones start arriving in and then buy the older model.

badboy8114

Thanks everyone for the advice! I'm going to take my time on this one. I'm in no rush to buy, I'm going to start calling these dealers and see what they have to offer.

oldfarmer50

Recently a local Chrysler dealer was selling new 2005 Chrysler Crossfire Roadsters for about 25K. These had an original list price of over 41K.

I didn't check further but that was a substantial discount even if it was a demo.

blufz1

They are worth what a used,low mileage 2005 or 2006 is worth as soon as you drive it off the lot! That's what you tell the dealer. Go to kelly and nada and look up the value used w/lo miles. Don't overpay!

joe131

But don't forget to add for full warranty and 0 (or close to it?) miles and perfect condition. Those things are not even priced in the book for a 3 year old car.

badboy8114

yea the Full warranty and 0 miles are definitely not in the book for older model years, so its guess work on that. The key thing I am going to check though is the mileage since they could've been demo models, and if so forget it. Those were probably driven hard and abused.

kiawah

The 3 year warranty could probably be considered to be worth 750 - 1000. It's like the cost of an extended warranty for a new car.

badboy8114

Chrysler charges a cool $2,500 on their Bumper to Bumper extended warranty's (Maximum Care on chryslerwarrantys.com), so if a used chrysler town & country '05 market value is 23K, a new '05 left over could be worth 25-26K.

plekto

I checked for factory certified 2005 models locally. $18,000 seems to be the lowest average price from a dealer.

So A closer offer for one with a warranty is $20K, considering how soon the 2008s come out.(then it'll be worth about 17K!)

joe131

I don't know what equipment is on those left over '05 and '06 models. I am curious what Kelley Blue Book good condition trade-in value would be for an '05 with no or extremely low miles. Get that number, add maybe $750 or so for the warranty, and make the total your purchase price target.
I'll make a guess... that target number is going to be $1000 more than 1/2 of the MSRP sticker on the window for a new '05.
If you want an '06, then figure good trade-in value for the '06 and add about $500 for the warranty, but the total is going to be more than $1000 plus 1/2 of the '06 MSRP.
I would not want to pay more than whatever good trade-in plus $750 (or $500 for an '06) is.
If you can't get it for that, try a Kia Sedona. I know a guy who bought a brand new current model year one with less than 50 miles on it a couple years ago for less than 66% of sticker. It had a better warranty than a Chrysler too.
If it was me, I'd try for a new, current model year Sedona or Entourage for 70% or so of MSRP.

joel0622

Those have to have a lot of rebate incentive on them from the manufacturer to the dealer.

Those have no rebates or incentives on them. Final pay was along time ago. At least on the 05 model for sure and probably the 06 to. 08's are already coming in.

I see allot of talk about them having full warranties, if they were in Demo Service make sure the inservice date didn't start clicking on the day they went in to Demo. Happens allot.

I personaly would not buy one. There is no way they can disount it enough for it to be even close to the depriciation factor.

If ya are looking for a deal on a two year old car buy a low mile pre owned.

joe131

"There is no way they can disount it enough for it to be even close to the depriciation factor."?

It always comes down to price. Just curious, how much of a discount would it take for you to be interested? What % of MSRP would you pay for an '05? an 06?

badboy8114

I originally was looking at 75% off (around 28K) MSRP (37K loaded). Some people say I can get more off. The depreciation on these vans are terrible, they lose so much right off the line, so a low mileage used one is certainly another option I'm looking to take. Let the new car owner take the beating on the depreciation before i buy it. The used market is flooded with used caravans and town & countrys, so again its another area to look at.

geffen

Just wondered if anyone knows is it good to shop for cars over the Memorial day weekend? Would this be the best time to head into the dealerships since it is month end?

snakeweasel

Memorial day weekend might be a good time to buy. Many places will be having sales (if that really means anything).

Going to the dealership at month end IMHO is a crap shoot. If you walk in at 7PM the last day of the month and they need one more sale to make quota or to get incentives then you have a good shot at a good deal. But if that one last car they needed to sell drove off the lot at 6:59 tough luck. Best said its all about timing and being at the right spot at the right time.

That being said you certainly have a much better chance of getting someone who just needs a sale at the end of the month than at the beginning.

traindriver

Why would a dealer hang on to a vehicle that long? You say final pay was long ago... therefore, I assume you mean the consumer rebate money is gone and even the mfr to dealer cash has expired (or is it that the mfr has already paid $xxxx to the dealer for the unit and the dealer has chosen to "pocket" it rather than passing it along to the consumer?)

It seems like on a 2005 model, at some point long ago, a dealer would realize this baby isn't going to sell. Why would they not take their medicine and move on? Or maybe put a salesman in it as a demo, put a few thousand miles on it and then move it over to the used lot (hoping it would sell) and if not, take it to the auction.

What is the line of thinking on holding on to a 2 (almost 3) year old brand new car? Could they really (still) be hoping that someone is going to come in and pay a 2007 price for a 2005 widely available mass market model?

I guess its worth a shot but if I were thinking of purchasing a vehicle like this, I would not hold out too much hope that I could negotiate a significant enough of a discount to make this worthwhile on my end of the deal. They have held it for two years now...what is special about today that they all of a sudden want to let it go?

Although probably not the case here, but what happens to buy back/lemon law vehicles? Is there any requirement that the next buyer be notified? Is the warranty still good? Are the titles branded in any way? I have seen a few on ebay and am curious. (Saw a 5000 mile late model Acura RL a few months ago that was described as a buy-back of some sort. Personally, I would not touch it at 50% off of MSRP but it might make sense for somebody depending on what the original problem was.)