Lexus RX 400h and 450h

callmedrfill

The RX330/400 is a CROSSOVER SUV.

It is bought/used primarily for it's extra room (cargo space, which is MUCH better than SUV like the X5, Tourage, or even Highlander). It is very carlike, but has the high and design of a borderline-futuristic SUV. It has style to spare, again, unlike many of its competition.

Because it can't tow a horse trailer or off-raod like a Jeep doesn't make it any less of a vehicle, it only underscores what it does well.

It is a market-focused machine, that has great passenger/cargo room, ride height, good power, and can handle 99% of the road conditions people will encounter on a daily basis.

Your diatribes can be taken two ways. Are Hummers less than SUVs because they take an hour to get to 60, or ride like a desert camel, or can only seat 4 in comfort?

SUV is a very diverse, generic term, and has many sub-divisions.

The positives so far outweigh any negatives it's ridiculous.

100k customers a year (and growing) can't be wrong on this one.

It's probably the best SUV on the road, and only getting better.

It's a better luxury car than pretty much any $50k car you can find, plus has 3X the trunk space and commanding view of the road, and NOE can run with a 300HP RL, and get 30MPG, while costing less! WITH better resale and ground clearance.

This arguement is getting boring.

Why not fight where you can at least not get creamed?

DrFill

motownusa

Wonder how the RX400H will do in Buffalo during December through March when you might have to drive through a foot + of snow ?

cyclone4

Your responses are so childish. Above, you stated correctly that I have never owned this vehicle. My response was neither have you or anyone else for that matter to this point. So, what makes you such an expert? You also stated that you were "repeating what the pundits and writers have posted". I asked you to give me an example of a bad review on this vehicle by anyone in the know. You have not done so. I asked you to read the review by Dan Neil (Pulitzer Prize winning reporter). Did you? How do you explain his glowing review, price, etc? Since everything I have seen on the various reviews is very complimentary, it is up to you to prove they are wrong. You have not proved anything.

cyclone4

I am at work when I started a resonse to gagrice. By the time, I was able to finish (busy schedule), I did not realize that the host deleted some personal posts.

larsb

This vehicle is targeted to a specific market - crossover SUV buyers with income $100K to $150K per year. Anyone not shopping in that market with that wallet needs to shop elsewhere.

Shopping for an RX400h and then expecting a Hummer's offroad capabilities is like shopping in a candle store when you need a flamethrower.

Buy the vehicle that meets your needs, and in the process try not begrudge people who buy vehicles that meet THEIR NEEDS but not necessarily your own needs.

No car is perfect, no car meets EVERY need.

cyclone4

Very well stated!

gagrice

No car is perfect, no car meets EVERY need.

That is true. My unhappiness is the fact that I was interested in the Highlander hybrid when it arrives. When I found out the RX/highlander platform is not able to perform very basic SUV duties it was upsetting. I am not easily intimidated by hybrid zealots that feel they have all the answers, and that the hybrids answer all the questions concerning every ones vehicle needs. I expect if they are touted as viable alternatives to gas or diesel only vehicles they will perform those duties equally well or better. If you want a nice riding, handling AWD vehicle there are dozens of choices. I take a lot of flack on this Forum for owning a Suburban. I don't find any vehicle to satisfy the needs that it handles with equal or better abilities.

gagrice

the Lexus RX330 does drive better than the original LS400. Not by much though. That car is indeed a great vehicle. Oh.. did I mention you overpaid on the maintenance too?

I have not driven, only took a ride in an RX. It does not ride as well as the 1990 LS400 nor is it as quiet or as comfortable. As far as my wife being overcharged by the Lexus dealer. That was before we were married. She trusted that they were honest. That was her mistake no doubt.

larsb

The Highlander Hybrid (basically a less expensive/watered-down version of the rx400h) will sell like hotcakes at a lumberjack convention.

And I'd bet a similarly small number of Highlanders are ever taken "offroad" and that any "offroad non-capability" will not be an issue for 95% or more of the buyers.

But there IS AT LEAST ONE DIFFERENCE in the AWD/4WD systems of the rx400h/highlander:

"The differences, when compared to the Lexus RX 400h, are that the Highlander Hybrid will offer "electric four-wheel-drive with intelligence" (4WD-I), where the front and rear electric motors deliver balanced power to all four wheels to provide simultaneous acceleration."

See more here:

http://car-reviews.automobile.com/article.jsp?id=899

gagrice

it is up to you to prove they are wrong. You have not proved anything.

As you do not consider offroad & towing to be SUV attributes I cannot prove to you that it is important. Those buying the RX400h will have to determine if that is an issue. Those wealthy enough to afford the RX400h probably can buy several vehicles for any other tasks they may have need of.

Median household income is expected to be from $150,000 to $200,000 a year.

Note that the all-wheel drive is for improved on-road traction and for mild stuff like dirt paths. The hybrid RX is not an SUV for strenuous off-road duty. The reason? The rear electric motor will shut down before it burns itself out in rough situations such as a driver trying to climb over huge rocks or slog through mud.

Handling is a bit trickier at the extremes in mountain twisties, because the battery weight makes the vehicle feel as if three fat guys are sitting in the back seat, as one auto writer colorfully put it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7148712/page/2/

skyfish400h

It does not seem that the rx400h will come with the "laser" cruise control that is available on the rx330.

I too think this is a mistake, and hope that the option will be offered at some point.

Another option that I was looking for but does not seem to be forthcomming is the air suspesion.

Being able to adjusts the ride height would add that extra bit of off road capablity and on road handling that that this market is looking for.

But getting back to the "laser". My understanding is that is shuts off at lower speeds (~25 mph) and while it has access to the brakes, it will not bring the vehicle to a complete stop if the conditions warrent.

Why is this? Why can't it the distance (or time interval) be set to hold the car motionless if the traffic is not moving? Is it just a divide by zero issue or what?

wwest

larsb...

You might take note that the HL hybrid article you reference says the front/rear "drive" will be balanced ONLY during ACCELERATION.

I think that puts it in the very same category as the RX400h, basically a FWD vehicle with some rear "boost" at initial "take off" and during low speed acceleration.

gagrice...

The RX AWD series, any one of them, is just as much an SUV as many others in the market today. And yes, it is not in the class of the Suburban, nor the 4runner, Explorer, Aviator, etc.

Other than being short on cargo space, no low range gearbox, and no off-road sports, or sporting events, ability, I trust my 2001 AWD RX300 against any other equivalently "configured" SUV.

In all my years of driving Jeeps "off-road" (excluding SPORTS off-roading) I cannot remember even one occasion when low range was used. And since about 2000 my 92 Jeep Cherokee Limited has been doing stellar duty on a cattle and wheat ranch in north central MT near the Missouri breaks.

I would wager that even with having been driven hundreds of miles by now on the ranch back roads (dirt, cowpaths, steep, often muddy, snow covered, etc.) the Jeep has NEVER been in low range, and likely not even in locked 4X4 mode very often.

But then ranchers rarely look for boulders to climb/drive over nor deep muddy pits to drive through.

gagrice

the Jeep has NEVER been in low range, and likely not even in locked 4X4 mode very often.

I have never needed to use low range in my Suburban either. I do go out in the desert on sandy roads and washes with water running across them at times. Most of the time in 2 wheel drive. Can I expect the RX/Highlander platform to take on sandy roads and washes? The towing ability of the RX/Highlander rating of only 2000 lbs., Of all the competition it is the least capable. Even the MDX will tow over twice the RX platform. Just seems inadequate.

stevedebi

"But there IS AT LEAST ONE DIFFERENCE in the AWD/4WD systems of the rx400h/highlander:

"The differences, when compared to the Lexus RX 400h, are that the Highlander Hybrid will offer "electric four-wheel-drive with intelligence" (4WD-I), where the front and rear electric motors deliver balanced power to all four wheels to provide simultaneous acceleration."

Uh Oh, that one won't go off road - all 4 wheels overheating? What about snow and slush?

ptm123

The RX400h has a rated towing capacity of 3500 lbs and towing package is standard. If anything the high low speed torgue of the hybrid system and of transmission (ie no trans. cooling requied) lends itself to this.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/presstxt/2006lexuskit/2006lex400h-2_s.pdf

mydquin

So I really want to be environmentally conscious, but I am very concerned about maintenance costs on the hybrid batteries. I appreciate the 8 and 10 year warranties that manufacturers are offering, but let's face it. With a $7-8K replacement cost, the net worth of the average hybrid is virtually zero if the battery burns out in 10 years and 1 month.

What are the warranty duration and replacement costs for the RX400h battery system?

cyclone4

In ten years the world will have probably ended so who cares -;). Seriously, 10 years is a hell of a long time. Technology will be so far dvanced by then that the vehicles coming out right now will be comparable to what we think of a 1970 model year today. The battery life does not even enter my mind. By the way, I believe the warranty for the RX400h battery is 10 years, but I am not positive.

frenchorne

"The hybrid-related components, including the HV battery, battery control module, hybrid control module and inverter with converter, are covered for 96 months/100,000 miles"

Definitely agree that battery technology will advance a lot in the next 8 years and the prices will also come down. If anyone is really concerned about the uncertainty, take out a lease.

markrogo

That's my plan -- a 4-year lease, I think. Depends on residuals and money factors and what a loan will cost, but I figure the next-gen version will be out by then with much better navi / electronics and at least some improvements to the electric part of the powertrain.

bungee1

I have the income and still would not pay over 50K for this vehicle. We rented a Prius whose mpg claims to be in the 50/60's mpg range and as much as we tried to drive slowly and efficiently, the best we got was 42mpg for the entire week. If this SUV is claiming high 20's/low 30's, I can bet that the actual MPG will be no different than what the current RX achieves now. The price is based on hype, and they will get some sucker to pay it.

dr27

I agree 50k is too much to pay, but the mileage of the RX400 will be better then the 330. The problem with the EPA mileage ratings being optimistic affects all cars not just hybrids. So yes, the high 20's/low 30's may end up being optimistic, but the 19/24 rating of the RX330 is optimistic also. So saying the actual MPG of the 400 will be no different then the current RX is wrong.

railroadjames

Don't blame the car(or cars) for less than window EPA figures. Put the blame where it belongs.....GOV and/or EPA for a less than realistic formula or method for rating Miles Per Gallon. For much too long the system has been suspect for lousy figures that have no practical application for the real world. I own an 04 Prius with 17K miles. In the winter I average low 40's mpg while summer it rises to upper 40's and even low 50'smpg. You are most likely right about the Lexus but considering most SUV's get much less than 20 mpg it might be worthy of a 2nd look.
Culliganman(hybrids in the high rent district)

bob_graham

So we are still on the list and we will trod on down to the dealer when they call. We may trade our 2002 RX 300 for the 400H.

For now we have about 400 miles on our 2005 Jeep GC Hemi, it does drive just like the Lexus we have except for one thing, its very quiet, more so than the Lexus. Autoweek noted that the fit and finish of the interior is "Lexus Like". It is very FAST, and yes it gets 14 to 18 MPG so far and yes this is nothing like the 1999 to 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee.

Again, for the 15K difference my wife may end up getting a 05 Jeep also. Just depends on how things go at the Concord Lexus dealer when we finally get the call.

Interesting article in US News 11/29 on how Daimler Chrysler U.S. is on fire with the likes of BMW Lexus ETC. The big issue seems to be building enough Hemi's as they are becoming a "designer" product short on supply.

So really the RX will probably sell like hot cakes not because of efficiencies but because of the raw power..... Just admit it, its the power that is the draw, not the eco stuff.

xcel

Hi All:

Just to discuss some of the merits of a hybrid or std. automobile in terms of FE, I usually hit 25 around town and > 30 out on the highway in the Acura MDX. This is a 17/23 rated AWD pig of an SUV. It is all about driving technique and setup. Someone hitting just 42 mpg in a Prius II is not hitting on all cylinders imho as that car is easily worth 55 + without to much trouble. You don’t just get in and hypermile as it does take more then just careful driving to achieve that goal.

With all of that, the RXh will give the right driver a 35 - 40 mpg summer time average but only if that driver has the patience to learn and the patience to drive it for maximum FE. Because most that can afford a $50K automobile lack the abilities or just don’t care, expect some rather poor numbers at first with the occasional bright star posting here as time goes on.

Good Luck to all of the RXh hopefuls.

Wayne R. Gerdes

cyclone4

Wayne, I think I speak for a lot of us here. We really appreciate your input and expertise on this subject. My wife & I are looking forward to the RX400h. I will certainly be one that posts FE numbers during the first tankful of gas & at various times thereafter. The problem is I have no idea how soon our vehicle will arrive since we are #17 on the waiting list at my dealer.

yerth10

Cost of Fuel in RX330 & RX400h

RX330 - 18 City / 24 Hwy
RX400h - 28 City / 22 Hwy

$6,000 is the extra cost of RX400h over RX330
$2.25 / gallon is the cost of Premium Gasoline.

Scenario-1 :For a person who drives 50:50 in City:Hwy.
RX330
75,000 miles / 18 = 4,167 gallons + 75,000 miles / 24 = 3,125 gallons
7,291 gallons * $2.25 = $16,406

RX400h
75,000 miles / 28 = 2,678 gallons + 75,000 miles / 22 = 3,409 gallons
6,087 gallons * $2.25 = $13,697

Difference $2,709. Net loss is $6,000 - $2,709 = $3,290

Scenario-2 :For a person who drives 75:25 in City:Hwy.
RX330
112,500 miles / 18 = 6,250 gallons + 37,500 miles / 24 = 1,562 gallons
7,812 gallons * $2.25 = $17,578

RX400h
112,500 miles / 28 = 4,017 gallons + 37,500 miles / 22 = 1,704 gallons
5,722 gallons * $2.25 = $12,875
Difference $4,702. Net loss is $6,000 - $4,702 = $1,297

For a driver in Scenario-2, he/she can lose $1,297 for a vehicle that
has 500 mile range and has Ultra-smooth drive.

frenchorne

Thanks for the thoughtful analysis. Just curious as to how you arrived at the MPG numbers for the 400h (28 City/22 Hwy)? In review articles that have been written recently the numbers would appear to be higher. For example, this article says 27 for mostly Hwy driving ...

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/smallbusiness/offhours/articles/0,15114,1037375,00.html

yerth10

I just calculated a 25 % increase in mileage in RX400H over RX300. If it gives 27 HWY and something like 33 City, then the person who drives 75:25 (City:Hwy) will almost get back the 6K extra paid.

Then RX400H will be to Luxury Hybrid as what Prius is to Ordinary Hybrid.

wwest

Isn't the issue. Nor is the purchase price.

The Prius has done well because many of us want to feel good about ourselves, have the money, and like the technological aspects.

The RX400h will FAIL because it isn't "tuned" to the correct target audience. Unlike the pride and high self esteem I feel dring around in the Prius I would be embarrassed to drive around in an RX400h "V8" GAS HOG!

Unless someone in the aftermarket comes out with custom ground intake cams that converts the V6 to the atkinson cycle and thereby increases fuel economy by 30% while still yeilding the RX330's level of performance.

cyclone4

I don't quite understand your post. Why would you feel embarrassed to drive around in the RX400h? From everything I have read and heard, the RX400h is more technologically advanced, is much more powerful, quieter, and just more comfortbale than the Prius. You state that "the RX400h will FAIL because it isn't tuned to the correct target audience". To what sort of audience is the RX400h targeted? If a person is willing to spend 50K for this vehicle that is suppose to be great for the environment and at the same time bring one all the luxury/comforts, what is wrong with that?

cyclone4

The current EPA estimate is 31 (city) & 27 (highway). xcel says that with proper driving techniques, the city estimate can jump to 35-40 mpg in the summer.

gagrice

The RX400h will FAIL because it isn't "tuned" to the correct target audience

I think you may be correct. Lexus is after the same green hotrodder crowd that the HAH is targeting. The HAH is not flying out of the showrooms. They are already available below MSRP.

hongcho

> Unless someone in the aftermarket comes out with
> custom ground intake cams that converts the V6 to
> the atkinson cycle and thereby increases fuel
> economy by 30% while still yeilding the RX330's
> level of performance.

Wait... I thought the reason RX 400h's V6 is rated at 208 HP is because it was an Atkinson. Where does it say otherwise?

Hong.

electrictroy

>>> ~$50,000 for an appliance that's going to eventually rust away & be junked?!?!?

>But then again, most people sell it before it "rusts away and be junked"...

.

(1) Eventually ALL cars rust away. Today's $50,000 car, in 15 years, is only worth $500 and a trip to the junkyard. It's an appliance.

(2) True most people trade-in every 5 years or so, but as soon as you drive off the lot, it changes from "new" to "used" and the price drops from 50,000 to 35,000.

You're wasting a HUGE amount of money ($15-20,000) that would be more wisely spent on something cheaper. You could buy a Civic with the money lost!!!

Hence my comment "some people have too much money on their hands" (IMHO).

troy

rfruth

Its easy to spend someone elses money but really ya can't expect someone considering a Lexus to get a Camrolla just to put the screws to OPEC, a 400h on the other hand ...

motownusa

Considering the fact that oil prices will go nowhere but up I don't understand why people think the RX400H will fail. If the mpg lives up to expectation, I think it will be a huge success. Hasn't all the hybrid RX been already pre sold ? The rich eco crowd who wants some serious Hp would flock to this SUV.

callmedrfill

Spoken like a man who has never driver or owned a Lexus.

Five years from now the 400h MIGHT drop to $35k. MAYBE. This is not a Dodge Intrepid!

Same goes for calling the RX an appliance. It's nicer inside than the homes of many customers!

I guess you will be driving Chevy Aveos for life then, huh?

Now THAT'S an appliance! Like one of those "Moving Men" plastic discs you see on TV.

DrFill

ken6

My decision to buy a 400H (I expect to use my coupon from the 2006 car show to get a $500 discount on the vehicle when it is delivered next March since I am number 301 on my dealer's waiting list) is a combination of better economy more power than a 330 and the luxury of a Lexus. I put at least 20,000 miles on my car a year. Using figures of 31/27 for the 400H and 18/24 for the 330, driving 75% city and 25% highway, I would have 7 days between fill ups for the RX330 (375 miles on 19.2 gallon gas tank) and 9.5 days between fill ups for the RX400H(525 mile range on 17.5 gallon gas tank). This translates into 38 fill ups per year for the H and 52 for the 330 or 14 more stops per year. This means a lot to me especially in the Winter here in Minnesota. More range for less money - awesome.

lexrexblue

Would you share the dealer's name and location? I'm number 30, but I really need the car.

drives1

Greetings all. I'll be getting the first Silver RX400h delivered to the dealership.

It costs a lot more than the RX330, true, but all the math I've read here is flawed in that it's only half the story. All seem to be trying to justify the extra 6 grand or so over the cost of a similarly equipped (loaded) RX330. True, it'll take quite a long time to justify the $6k price differential if that's the only part of the equation you look at.

But don't forget Part II of the equation: Assuming the RX400h is not the very last vehicle you ever buy in your days on this planet, you will someday SELL your RX400h. There will be a large difference in selling price between the trade in (or private retail) value of your 400h vs the 330.

With more than 11,000 people on a waiting list for the 400h, and 330's currently selling at discount with no waiting list, the sale of your 400h will get you pretty close to your money back (if not a profit!). The 330's value will unfortunately sink much more quickly.

Imagine if you bought a Prius a year ago and sold it today, you'd hardly lose anything, mabye make a buck or two. If you bought a regular ol' Toyota Corolla a year ago, you'd lose a few grand (and pay more for fuel). Simple supply and demand.

So do ALL the math, selling and buying. The resale is not equal, so you don't have to justify a $6000 difference. And you'll save [approx.] half the cost of gas while you own your 400h, and you'll get pretty close to your money back if you sell while there's still that nasty 11,000 person nationwide waiting list!

If you keep the car for a decade or more (or 150,000 miles as in the example above) your difference will be negligible. Nobody will pay a whole lot for a decade old car or one with 150k miles on the clock. But don't doubt that gas will eventually be $3 or more per gallon and the gas difference may save you even more with the 400h.

And you'll be helping to save the environment at least a little, and you'll have the coolest vehicle on the block. Not bad, eh?

ptm123

I believe the change in the engine (and corresponding drop in horsepower) is the elimination of the variable timing valves which are not neccessary as the engine is required to operate in a narrower RPM range due to the ECVT drive train.

wwest

I was VERY surprised when I learned the RX400h did not make use of the Atkinson cycle. The more I learn about it the more I tend to believe it is tuned for the "boy-racer" crowd.

But then maybe I was right all along and the Prius hybrid concept could not be adequately scaled up to the RX series and so going after the HP/torque crowd was the next best option.

rcf8000

It is obvious to me that Lexus decided that the rational customer would not pay the required premium for an RX400h based on gas mileage alone. Thus, the emphasis on performance. Potential buyers should be comparing it to the luxury V8 competition, not the RX330. The competition typically gets 14 mpg city and 19 mpg highway. It will be interesting to see comparisons between the RX400h and the new ML500, for example.

As for real-world vs EPA mileage, it is not my experience that the real world mileage is always a lot less. My LS430 and LX470 get close to the EPA numbers in both city and hwy driving.

callmedrfill

You check any press release, and they go right to X5 and ML. V8 performance, 4-banger economy.

Finding nits on this puppy is rough, so people go to price.

Try if you must.

DrFill

kenworthy

I stated in an earlier post that I am on the list for the Highlander Hybrid because I couldn't bring myself to pay the extra money for the lexus. Well call me a lair. My wife and I test drove an RX330 this past weekend for fun and fell in love with it. It is definately more than a reskinned Highlander. Well anyway we put our deposit down and are 35 on the list. The question I have is, the sales rep said she would start entering orders for the 400h this week and would know when ours would be in. Has anyone heard similar statements?

electrictroy

"(2) True most people trade-in every 5 years or so, but as soon as you drive off the lot, it changes from "new" to "used" and the price drops from 50,000 to 35,000."

.

Just to back-up what I wrote: 2000 Lexus LX470 SUV *was* $50,000 when new. Now it's only $29,000 according to edmunds.com TMV private sale.

The exact same thing's going to happen to the Hybrid Lexus. You *will* lose $15-20,000 between now and trade-in.

It simply doesn't make sense to waste that much money.... unless you're Donald Trump and have money to burn.

troy

wwest

would recognize that more HP/Torque than the RX330 has is a total waste of fuel and money. Look at the above, kenworthy test drove the RX330 so obviously he, and his wife, are satisfied with the RX330's level of get up and go.

larsb

Cars are depreciating consumables. No one buys a car they will drive as a normal car and expects it to be an appreciating asset - unless they are just goofy.

Your above example shows a vehicle that has lost 42% of it's value over a 5 year period...That's 8.4 percent per year.

That's in the low range because more expensive cars by quality carmakers like Toyota (Lexus) hold their value better.

But with "luxury brands" it's just on a larger scale. A Corolla loses value just as fast, just on a smaller scale.

It's all relative, but luxury cars usually do not suffer MORE PERCENTAGE WISE than less expensive cars, because they, of all cars, usually hold their quality longer. In part because of the quality of the workmanship but also because buyers of expensive cars usually take good care of them, with the knowledge and foresight to understand that they will likely be selling it someday and want to keep it's value as high as possible.

So if you buy cars on a larger financial scale, you lose more money than a buyer of a less luxurious car, but usually not in higher percentages.

maxhonda99

"would recognize that more HP/Torque than the RX330 has is a total waste of fuel and money."

So then isn't the extra HP/torque that the RX330 has a total wast of fuel and money or let's say a 4-cylinder Highlander???

markrogo

You just proved yourself completely wrong Troy. You didn't "back yourself up" at all.

You said: Drive off lot, price goes down by $15000.

In fact, it's: Drive off lot, drive >>5 years<< price goes down $21,000.

You can't seriously believe its $15k in the first 5 minutes and then $6K in the remaining 5 years.

So, in essence, you completely threw your point out the window.

Over 5 years, if these new cars depreciate $21,000 -- which I suspect is about right -- that's $350 per month in depreciation. To drive a car this sophisticated and capable, that seems more than a little reasonable -- despite the sticker shock.