Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Lexus RX 400h and 450h

1…1314161819…41

Comments

  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    ABSOLUTELY!!!

    That's exactly why I firmly believe the RX400h should have used the I4 and thereby given us RX330 performance level with the HL I4 fuel economy.

    An RX230h would have fitted me just fine.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Or many others....?

    The lifetime fuel savings can in no way justify, offset, the purchase cost as compared to much lower priced comparable non-hybrid vehicles.

    Just what, other than the hybrid aspect, does the Prius have to offer over the many otherwise comparable vehicles out there in the marketplace?

    It makes a statement to everyone that I care about the environment.

    So, was I voting with my pocketbook?

    You bet!

    Yes, firmly YES!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote wwest-"The lifetime fuel savings can in no way justify, offset, the purchase cost as compared to much lower priced comparable non-hybrid vehicles."-end quote

    Actually, it depends on the deal you get. My deal (I bought a used 2004 HCH manual for $19,324) will pay for itself in fuel savings in less than 4 years over the cost of an EX which was on the lot that night.

    There was also a new 2005 HCH for sale in Phoenix last week for around $18,500. At that price, it pays for itself in less than 4 years over the cost of a comparably equipped 2005 Civic EX.

    For the Lexus rx400h, if you are paying $5-$8K over the cost of a comparable rx330, then yes, you might not see savings until 200K miles or later..... :)
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Yeah, it may have fitted you just fine but you would have probably been the only one to buy a $45K Lexus with a 4-cylinder. And that wouldn't work very well for Toyota!!
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    The 6K extra paid for RX400h can be recoved by someone who drives
    * 3:1 in City:Hwy
    * puts up 200K miles (mainly in a limo taxi).

    especially if Premium Gas costs $2.3 based on todays $ 56/barrel.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Makes me wonder if a V8 with the small displacement and fuel economy of the I4 would be more marketable.

    Nah...Americans aren't really that stupid.
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    Just like some cab companies are using Escape Hybrid in the place of Crown Vic / Grand Marq.

    Some luxury cab companies can use RX400h in the place of Lincoln / Cadillac sedans. After all RX400h has more cargo capacity than those sedans while offering a very smooth ride and also costs the same as those.

    Even if the Sedans come with HUGE discounts, the mileage gap will help RX400h make the difference.
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    But his case studies sure are Hole-y!

    Using the LX to make a case for future RX depreciation makes not one bit of sense. Apples and Kumkuats!

    The LX was just joined in the lineup by a similar-sized, better-looking, lighter, cheaper vehicle (GX), that performs many of the same functions, ergo the steep (for Lexus) depreciation. AND the LX has been out since the turn of the millenium! The LX depreciation means close to nothing, except that if that's what he wants to use as a Lexus losing it's value, it speaks to the value and demand of the Lexus line as a whole that it holds it's value that well with a market stacked against it, including it's own SUV line!

    If the frenzy for the Prius is any indication (seems like a great one), demand for the RX (already market-busting at 100k sales a year) might DOUBLE with a faster, more efficient and fully-loaded model joining the line.

    If anything, it will be hard work getting anyone to SELL OR TRADE their Hybrid RX, unless they get near purchase price for it!!

    Getting less than $40k for Lexus RX hybrid within this decade, with less than 50k miles, will be quite an accomplishment!

    DrFill
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    It's my OPINION that spending $50,000 on an SUV is a foolish waste of money.

    I'm sticking with my opinion.

    troy
  • markrogomarkrogo Member Posts: 50
    ... is fine. The "math" you backed it up with has been proved wrong is all.
  • dylan hixondylan hixon Member Posts: 44
    Why is everyone looking at the the price differential between RX and RXh without considering the increased performance? You may not want it, but it is there so it should go into any calculation. When they make an RX 230h, compare it to the 330, and it will kick [non-permissible content removed].

    As an example, to upgrade from a 232hp V-6 Mercedes ML350 to a 288hp V-8 ML500, the cost is $8,450 (MSRP $38,670 vs. $47,120). For that price premium, you get better performance, more features, and WORSE mileage!

    The 400h gives you the same increase in features and performance but gets TWICE the mpg of the ML500.

    I did not back out the differing options between the two, but my gut is you pay several grand for the performance improvement alone.

    That makes the apples to apples hybrid premium more like $3,000, not $6,000.

    Dylan
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    are NOT about performance!

    At least not in the sense of how fast we can acclerate from 0-60.

    Except in the sense of better fuel economy.
  • dylan hixondylan hixon Member Posts: 44
    I am interested in performance, as I think many others are. You can have a conscience and a right foot...One of the most popular features of the new Prius was improved performance, so it matters even to many Prius buyers.

    It seems that the fact that you even consider the 400h to be viable demonstrates that you will sacrifice fuel economy for something (space? luxury? 4WD?) if not for performance, otherwise you would buy a Prius.

    Anyway, the 400h should not be compared apples to oranges on a price basis just because some don't necessarily want the extra performance. I don't want the Mark Levenson audio or the rear DVD, but I dont expect the car to pay for those unwanted options, in addition to the hybrid system, in fuel savings. Fuel economy is relative, a 30 mpg scooter is bad, but a 30 mpg delivery truck is great. They are not held to the same standard.
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    If the RX is a success, and sells out, the LS will follow it's path of MORE.

    Feature. Economy. Power.

    Whatever you want, this vehicle has it.

    Some people won't get onboard with the Prius because it just produces economy, but this model is weak in handling, power, and drivabilitiy.

    The RX has eliminated these perceived weaknesses.

    Considering the increased performance AND economy, the price increase over a truly loaded RX is insignificant. The value of it is unprecedented! You are NOT supposed to get both power and economy. Plus a tighter suspension pkg to boot!

    Lexus is the first to say you can have it all.

    For less than $50K, with cargo capacity of an SUV, and the ride of a Lexus, there is not weakness.

    You truly get what you pay for.

    DrFill
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Are there enough boy racers out there to achieve the level of sales Lexus needs to consider the RX400h a marketing success?

    Those with pocketbooks deep enough to justify a $50k purchase are generally smart enough to recogize a pig in a poke when one comes along.

    None of us will know the answer for another 12 months of so.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    A newspaper reporter is looking for people who either have or are in the market for a new Honda Accord hybrid or the upcoming Lexus SUV and Toyota Highlander hybrids.
    Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with your daytime contact information and vehicle year, make and model no later than Monday, March 21, 2005.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    Hybrid buyers.."are NOT about performance!"

    is what you say. How do you come to this conclusion? How many hybrids are currently on the market? Can you really point to any relevant data/study that says "hybrid buyers are only interested in high gas mileage and care ZERO about performance"?

    At this point, What Toyota is doing, is a huge risk. It could pay off big time for them, which is what alot of industry experts think, or it could flop with performance oriented hybrids like the RX400h and upcoming GS450h. Who knows? Certainly not you or I.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    it could flop with performance oriented hybrids like the RX400h and upcoming GS450h. Who knows? Certainly not you or I.

    That is true. We do know the Honda Accord Hybrid is less than a raving sales success. They have not been on the market 4 months and they are already selling at invoice in many markets. I think that most of the people that would be interested in hybrids want high MPG & PZEV, not fast 0-60 times.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Does anyone know anyone that owns a Prius that would give up any portion of the fuel economy for better 0-60 times?

    I most certainly would NOT!
  • dylan hixondylan hixon Member Posts: 44
    Every buyer of the second generation Prius gave up some potential fuel economy when Toyota increased the power, reducing the the 0-60 substantially from 13 sec to 10 sec. I didn't hear a lot of complaints.

    Prius GT will also have a market.

    The way to save the planet is to have everyone drive hybrids at all performance levels, not just at the ultra high efficiency end.
  • markrogomarkrogo Member Posts: 50
    What risk?

    Lexus is easily going to sell out first year production with dealers getting >= MSRP on the vehicle.

    There is no risk here. This product is a slam dunk -- one of the most pre-ordered automobiles in history.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    " The way to save the planet is to have everyone drive hybrids at all performance levels, not just at the ultra high efficiency end. "

    The planet will be here long after humans are gone... it is just a question of how soon humans may be gone. Or has someone spotted the "killer asteroid"?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Let's stick to the 400h, please.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    can be cancelled, at least mine was. After the third delay in production I gave up.
  • greatdane_1greatdane_1 Member Posts: 4
    25 days to the launch of the RX400h in the States, have any of you, who have had orders in for a long time heard anything from your dealers?
    I am quite keen to learn how early customers are notified of their car's arrival at the dealership.
    I really envy you with your early launch. The launch in the U.K. is in June, so I would be interested to learn how long one would have to wait for details prior to the launch date.
    I paid my deposit in the Autumn 2004.

    This board is very inspiring, and I find many of your comments extremely interesting (apart from the occational arguing by people who do not seem interested in the RX400h - and only 'knocking it').

    Cheers from sunny London town
    Carsten
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    struck me over the weekend about the foundation of my dislikes for the RX400h.

    First, the Prius was a completely new Toyota model and so none of us, basically, had any preconceived ideas or notions about the performance level issue vs fuel economy.

    The RX series, on the other hand, has been around since 98.

    This will seem off-track but bear with me for a moment.

    I think the 4runner AWD system (full-time 4WD) is the cat's meow. Engine torque primarily to the rear. I'm quite sure I could do without the part-time 4X4 mode and certainly the 4X4 low range mode.

    It seems to me therefore that the V6 4runner would be the perfect vehicle for many of us needing full-time AWD systems.

    So why don't I already own one?

    Putting aside, for the moment, the fact that I feel that the RX series is perfectly sized for the market demographics whereas the 4runner is a bit on the large and heavy side.

    The 4runner ISN'T a GX470!

    The interior appearance and human interface aspects of the 4runner just isn't in the Lexus class.

    But the GX470 comes with that HUGE V8 that virtually nobody will ever make use of.

    Now, how many of us would prefer a V6 powered GX400h yielding V8 performance over the RX series upgraded to V8 performance?
  • ptm123ptm123 Member Posts: 15
    I ordered one in Feburary 2004 and got a call last week from the dealer. We were told they are epecting the first shipment on or around the April 15th, the price would be 49.2k US which includes the heated seat option. The original color we selected light blue is not being offered along with dark green, so selected a alternate first and second choice. They said that they will get back to us when a car is assigned to us with a specfic deleviery date.

    Cheers from sunny and snowy Ipswich (the one in New England, not old England).

    PM
  • markrogomarkrogo Member Posts: 50
    Someone is moderating this forum with a heavy hand, to say the least.

    I had a post that mentioned the people out there wanting the car is long enough that people can cancel their preorders without it affecting sales.

    And it got deleted?

    C'mon.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    I apologize if your post was deleted in error. I deleted a long string of posts unrelated to the 400h, discussing mainly the Prius, and may have inadvertently deleted an appropriate one.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • kenworthykenworthy Member Posts: 7
    Just curious how long the waitlists are at various dealerships? I am 35 on the list when I put my deposit down a week ago at a Cincinnati dealership. Also just trying to figure out how long it will take to get one. I know I am late to the race, but I definately don't want to wait another year.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Last week a Lexus salesman told me that they had given up on the RX400h ever being delivered and had cancelled all pre-orders, no RX400h coming into the dealership at all as far as he knew.
  • briegelbriegel Member Posts: 139
    What are you saying? That is ridiculous!
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    how many RX400h's they would be getting and when and the response was NONE!

    I then said that I thought that with the level of business they did their allocation would be substantial.

    And was again told that the dealership wasn't in line to recieve any RX400h's.
  • briegelbriegel Member Posts: 139
    Is that Lexus of Bellevue? That is very hard to believe. I am around #400 on their list. Do you really believe that is true?
  • markrogomarkrogo Member Posts: 50
    ... the car is coming soon. And now we have people who canceled their pre-orders stating that a dealer in the Seattle area claims they aren't getting any.

    I mean really. They are building 26,000 of them or so.

    They will be coming.
  • krellukrellu Member Posts: 31
    I spoke to my salesman in ny (major dealership) on sat. 3/21. He said the first 2 months of the vehicles are built. I am #56 on the list.
  • ptm123ptm123 Member Posts: 15
    This is consistent with what my salesman told me, as I had stated in my previous post they expect the first batch in or around April 15. I am #4 on their list and they were contacting people to assign specific cars to customers. It should also be noted that this salesman is handling most sales transactions for the RX400h for the dealership. He had gone to a sales meeting and driven one (said it was a hot car for what its worth). By and large it makes sense for Sales people push the product they can deliver immediately as they are payed on commission. If Lexus truly has presold 12,000 of the first years production that would say a lot sales people would go out of their way to sale a car that cannot be delivered for 4 or 5 months. That being said my experience with the local Lexus dealership has been very low pressure from them, they except that this is the car I am interested in and have not tried to sale my something else.
  • frenchornefrenchorne Member Posts: 31
    FYI, thought this was a very good perspective on the market segments and technologies surrounding the RX 400h and hybrids in general.

    http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.04/hybrid.html?pg=1&topic=hybrid&topic_set=
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    Some highlights from wired article

    the Lexus RX 400h had a preorder list of 18,000

    It will open a Prius manufacturing plant in Chang-chun by the end of the year,

    Right now, there are about 800 million cars in active use.
    I think there are about 800 million vehicles (all vehicles with 4 or more wheels), rather than cars alone.

    So has the Lexus order list increased to 18,000 from 11,000.
  • markrogomarkrogo Member Posts: 50
    ... that some dealers are getting none when it's obvious that nearly all dealers with pre-order lists are getting cars in just weeks.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    the Lexus RX 400h had a preorder list of 18,000

    That indicates the economy is good, with people having plenty of money to spend. I don't think the price of gas going up is a factor at all. People that buy an RX400h could care less if gas is 1 buck or 5 bucks a gallon. They are after the latest and greatest toys.
  • kenlex41kenlex41 Member Posts: 18
    People in higher income brackets are less affected by downturns in the economy. That is why Lexus targets the luxury buyer and in this case the luxury buyer that needs to have the coolest toys on the block. So you assumption isn't necessarly a good indicator of the overall economy.
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    Any new technology comes in luxury brand first. Hybrids are the only exception. May be the companies wanted to test the tech with non-luxury vehicles. Now its proven, they can probably test a hybrid (with both battery & capacitor) in a luxury vehicle.

    GS450h can be a good candidate.
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    It might be worthy to mention that people don't want to look stupid or non-green or indifferent to today's fuel crisis. I know if I pulled into a station in a HUMMER and 3-4 thrifty cars were around me getting their usual 10 gallons of gas while I guzzled down 35 gallons, it might just make me feel down right cotton pickin, finger lickin, chicken pluckin, pickle pickin DUMB!! Being cool is sometimes a big part of it all too. Of course I don't like to see people joining the band wagon just to be "cool" and/or "with it", but the end results can justify the means. In a short time hybrids have seemed to be "IN" and "SMART" as of late. That ain't bad. Is it? Top end hybrids deserve wealthy buyers too. Don't they?
    Culliganman(hybridizing the rest of the world)
  • rxexpertrxexpert Member Posts: 5
    Found dealer with no wait list.Quoting 4/15 to 5/15 delivery and MSRP pricing.
  • markrogomarkrogo Member Posts: 50
    That's pretty amazing. Do tell....
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    the number of times the deliveries of the RX400h have been delayed, and the duration of the delays, how do we know that those 18,000 pre-orders aren't just a lot of dealer hype. Or wishful thinking maybe?

    With the price of gas going up and UP as it does every day now how many folks are having second thoughts about a hybrid touting HP/Torque instead of fuel economy.

    SUV sales down HOW much in the first quarter??
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "With the price of gas going up and UP as it does every day now how many folks are having second thoughts about a hybrid touting HP/Torque instead of fuel economy. "

    Doesn't the RX400h tout performance and fuel economy? Doesn't gas mileage move up to the very high 20's range?
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    I read with great fascination the terrific article linked by frechorne above on post #827. Since we are on the list for the RX400h, our interest is greater than most. The paragraph that was really intriguing to me was on page 3. It talks about Toyota's exclusive algorithm that manages a hybrid power train that Toyota has and that no one else has been able to duplicate. Since I am not a computer progamming wizzard what is so special about this algorithm? Why haven't the brains of other companies figured this out? I also read that Ford developed its own only to find out that it was very similar to Toyota's. Therefore, they decided to licence it rather than pursue a patent in order to avoid a lawsuit. This implies that any other algorithm by another company needs to be quite different but yet get the great results that Toyota is getting. Is this the problem? If so, then I now understand why Toyota is years ahead from anyone else in the hybrid technology.

    We are very much looking forward to the delivery of the RX400h. There has been a lot of discussion and arguing on this board about the future sucess of the RX400h. To me, it is a no brainer. To use a baseball analogy, Lexus is about to hit a grand slam early in the game to put it away and win another World Series.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Let's put it this way. Had Lexus offered a V8 as an option for the RX series how many would buy it?

    IMMHO V8 performance isn't required or necessary in a vehicle of the RX's weight and class.

    And think about how much better the fuel economy would be if the hybrid system used the Prius I4, or even the current V6 but with the atkinson cycle, to achieve the totally satisfactory HP/torque of the RX330 but with even better fuel economy than the RX400h.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles