Lexus RX 400h and 450h

falconone

The reason he spends time here is because Bangle messed with his beloved Bimmer. It could also be Lexus envy? LOL :confuse:

dewey

The reason he spends time here is because Bangle messed with his beloved Bimmer. It could also be Lexus envy? LOL

Huuhh :confuse:

Am I the only person here who is confused by the above statement?

maxhonda99

"What baffles me is that the mileage achieved by the the RH in magazines/newspapers/web logs/websites does not at all resemble the MPG of forum members."

Actually, several car magazines have gotten pretty good numbers for gas mileage. In fact, close to what the average town hall'er is getting. Of course this was in their short testing. The real test would be long term tests in C&D, Automobile, & MT.

gagrice

Am I the only person here who is confused by the above statement?

I think he is referring to the mess BMW made of the new cars. BMW is trying for some unknown reason to be as ugly as the Lexus. All these automakers need to fire their design dept. 90% of the cars on the road are grotesquely ugly. Maybe they are just trying to make a statement about their dysfunctional childhood. BMW & Lexus built some beautiful cars in the 90s. Not lately. They need to watch Mercedes, they are making the right statement with their newer models.

dylan hixon

I am at 25.1 mpg for 3400 miles, best tank, 27.4, worst tank 23.1. Very hot these days, and I use full AC, lots of fairly short city drives, and some long highway drives, but at 75mph where possible. No special techniques other than anticipating stops, and whenever practical, not stopping so fast as to invoke mechanical braking. I enjoy full throttle regularly, although I see its impact on the average mpg. My wife also drives the car, but with no special attention whatever to mpg.

I wrote a letter to the editor after reading those articles, and I will send you a copy if you want, but I am not supposed to publish it anywhere else if they are considering it for publication. As I said in the letter, once you correct for the additional power and the use of regular grade gas, the 400h gets substantially better mileage than a non-hybrid equivalent, 40% or so. (25mpg for the 400h, versus 21mpg for the 330, down to 20mpg for premium gas usage, down to 18mpg if it were a V-8)

There is a lack of quantitative understanding about the units of fuel efficiency which causes a major distortion, and disproportionate admiration for large mpg numbers. The rest of the world measures fuel "consumption" (liters/100km) which is what really matters. We have chosen to measure fuel "efficiency", the inverse. It is a somewhat less useful number dimensionally, and tends to get very large as the fuel consumption gets small (the divide by zero problem), skewing comparisons between cars. The confusion is that for high mileage cars, which use the least gas and have the least impact, the number is huge (wow 60mpg!), but for high consumption cars, the numbers are small so small that large percentage changes are only a couple of mpg (12mpg or 15mpg, who cares).

An example. Imagine two cars that have their mileage doubled (fuel consumption halved) by a new technology:

before after
small car ..........30mpg..............60mpg
large car............15mpg..............30mpg

but stated in liters/100km

small car............7.8 l/100km.......3.9 l/100km
large car...........15.7 l/100km......7.8 l/100km

The 30 to 60 mpg improvement sounds huge, but you actually save about a gallon every 60 miles. The 15 to 30 mpg improvement sounds only half as good, but it actually saves 2 gallons every 60 miles, twice the fuel savings!

I am too lazy to crunch all the numbers, unless the reporter wants them, but I would venture to say that the RX400h saves more fuel than the Prius over their respective equivalent non-hybrid counterparts. I think that eventually, everyone should drive high mileage cars (I mean low consumption cars), but that is no reason to obscure the real improvements in fuel consumption that a car like this can make today, given the actual fleet mix on the road right now. If we simply reduce the consumption of every car on the road by 30%, that is all of the oil we import from the Middle East (yes, I know it is not that simple since oil is fungible, but it is symbolic).

I thought that whole group of articles was very sloppy and biased, and I hope they print the other side of the story.

love2scuba

Okay, let me state this first before Dewey gets back on my case. This is my current mileage since I filled up last Sunday. It would be about 90% freeway driving. I know it's not a long term test, but it's all I have to post right now. All I can say it's very typical for what I've been getting (26-27MPG), and I have about 6,800 miles on the car, so hopefully it's pretty much broken in.

gagrice

Does your read out show the average for the whole 6800 on the car? That would give a better idea of what a prospective buyer can expect. If you are at 27 MPG overall, that is better than the average RH posting their mileage.

love2scuba

No, unfortunately I have hit the reset button after almost every tank. I did have about 650 miles on it once between resets and it was at a steady 26.0 MPG. I'll keep it going now and post updates every 250 miles or so if people seem to care.

falconone

Lexus has always made BORING looking cars. Look at the early ES models and even the LS models. BORING!! If anyone makes really ugly cars it has to be GM. But that's another thread. The new 3 series isn't that bad. I guess they didn't "bangle" that too much. In summary, Lexus makes boring looking cars but certainly not ugly. Reliable? Absolutely!

falconone

Gary... I know in the Prius that the mileage automatically resets after each fillup. I am not sure about the Lexus. That 27.6 is quite impressive for a 4000 pound SUV with. It is also consistent with what Edmunds reported.

dewey

Okay, let me state this first before Dewey gets back on my case

Case dismissed for now!

But how do we know the date and time of the photo?

Dont take this personally but what if a driver achieves best mpg performance ever achieved and simply takes various photos at different mileage points on this same tank-full of gas---in other words treating each photo shot as if it was for a different tank of gas?

As you said yourself RH owners have a "vested interest". This could affect the objectivity of forum members mpg digital shots.

jbollt

I have been reading these Hybrid forums with interest for some time now, as i am considering the purchase of a Hybrid. dewey...how non trusting can you be? lov2scuba went out of his way to post an actual image of his mpg....do you really think he would fake it???? why would he? I am sure he is happy with the mpg he gets, and doens't have an agenda here, other then to give info to other interested parties like myself..... sorry, your post just rubbed me the wrong way....

thanks love2scuba!

dewey

..how non trusting can you be? lov2scuba went out of his way to post an actual image of his mpg..

This is not about any specific forum members! What I am saying is that digital shots by owners are pretty useless when compared to long term RH tests done by objective publications/organizations that have no vested interests with the RH!

jbollt

For what it's worth, i almost always get better mileage than the leadfooted editors in the mags. Maybe it' s the way i drive, or where i drive. dunno..also, remember, all but CR are funded heavily by advertisers.....doesn't mean i don't read the car mags, but i understand where they are coming from...a chevy Vega as a car of the year? (perhaps before your time???)

BTW..the EPA figures are only to be used as a comparison between vehicles...if one is rated at 27 highway, and the other at 25 highway, the one rated at 27 should and will in all liklehood get better mileage. The EPA doesn't state that you will get 27 highway.

love2scuba

You are welcome, and thank you for saying to Dewey exactly what I was about to. I think he is running out of things to complain about. I will make sure that my date/time is added for any future shots, even though he will probably say that even that could be manipulated. Maybe I'll hold up a current headline from the newspaper! Thanks again, and I'm glad you find the post helpful.

Kirstie_H

the personal comments. If you don't like another member's posts, please feel free to ignore them.

kirstie_h
Roving Host
Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

love2scuba

Kirstie, Is there a way to automatically not show posts from certain members? I know on some discussion boards they have that feature. Thanks!

Kirstie_H

Nope, we don't have that feature - sorry, you'll have to use the "scroll on by" feature

love2scuba

Thank works too. Thanks again!

wwest

that the HP and Torque of the RX400h actually encourages LEADFOOTS.

Maybe that was the market Lexus was after....

The RX400h is clearly not the best design for fuel economy.

molokai

Getting 27 MPG out of a 4000 + SUV is good in my book.

padriver

As a prospective RX 400h buyer, I was also upset by the NY Times articles. However, after reading virtually every posting on this forum (it's been a long afternoon!), I realized that the reviewers may have been testing new cars not yet broken in. Most of the early posts indicated that the gas mileage went from disappointing to as good as, or better than, the EPA ratings once the cars had over 1000 miles on them. I am much more encouraged by what I'm reading currently. One other thing I don't remember being mentioned is cruising range. Our 1999 RX300 averages about 300 miles per fill-up. It sounds like the 400h extends that by about 100 miles (same small size tank: 17.2 gallons) @ 25 MPG. That will be very welcome.

anthonyp

As we were just about to buy the H, and instead got the 5 bmw stationwagon, I thought you all may be interested in an observation...Drove the car on a short trip of about then miles and checked the milage for gas consumtion...I drove regularly and got seventeen. mpg. and I would think, had I gotten the h it would have been twenty five mpg....Just goes to show that short trips really do use the fuel much more than a person would think....As a percent the h gets a lot more mpg..Tony

dmdj

I recently drove a similar route through Michigan (in a Matrix, 32+ mpg!). MI has a 70 mph speed limit on most highways and most people drive 80-85. Add in the fact that it has been very hot and AC was probably running full blast and I think that explains the problems. The ratings are usually for 55 mph with no AC running. I have read that the mpg drops after sharply above 65 mph.

rx400_owner

I remain a bit puzzled about why owners are reporting better MPG on highway, ~28, versus city, ~24. Everything I know would indicate better city MPG as in our 2003 Prius.
I've been meaning to reply to this part of your post though it has taken a while to get around to it. We now have more than 3000 miles on our RX400H - about 85% city/suburban and 15% freeway. What I find is that city driving is much more variable than highway driving in a number of ways. For instance, some people's city driving is on short trips. The first 5 to 10 minutes of driving have the engine operating less efficiently. I find that when I do short trips (under 5 miles of city driving) I get around 21-24 mpg. When I do driving similar to the EPA profile for "city" driving - a stop about every half mile, cruising at around 25 to 40 mph between stops, spring weather so no or mild AC - I get around the EPA number. Really bad stop and go with lots of AC can lower that substantially.

Also, analysis shows that the mileage during lower speed driving is more heavily influenced by other factors such as AC load. In message 1753 I showed in calculation that the same AC load that drops freeway mileage from 27 mpg to 25 mpg could move city mileage from 31 mpg to 24 mpg. That was for city travel at an average speed of 20 mph like the EPA profile. In really bad stop and go, it would be an even bigger hit.

Therefore, it isn't surprising that the city mileage is more difficult to predict than freeway mileage. It can easily be better than freeway mileage for some conditions and worse for others. Your Prius may be saved from some of the short trip penalty by its coolant thermos and in the Pacific Northwest you may not get as heavy AC load as we get on a regular basis. Temp was already above 80 degrees F when I got to work this morning.

wwest

the biggest "gain" from the Toyota Hybrid concept is the regenerative braking aspect, recovery of coastdown and/or braking energy, that would otherwise be disippated into the atmosphere as heat.

So city stop and go traffic should result in stellar gas mileage over an equivalent non-hybrid vehicle just as the EPA estimates indicate.

Yet the reports here seem to indicate highway mileage substantially better than city.

Is it because the catalytic converter must be kept FIRED OFF...??

On the highway the ICE must run continuously anyway. Must it often run in the city because the thermocouple in the catalytic converter indicates it needs to be reheated?

And does the A/C rely on the reheat/remix cycle like all other Lexus automatic climate control systems? In which case the engine coolant would also need to be kept continously HOT.

I noticed that in the 04 and later Prius a c-best option was added such that the A/C reheat/remix cycle was disabled so there was no need for the ICE to run ONLY to keep the coolant HOT.

Maybe Lexus thinks that would be too discomforting for a Lexus owner.

rx400_owner

wwest, I think the issue is that the biggest gain of the hybrid over gas only is different from the best mileage. For example at freeway speed under certain conditions perhaps the hybrid would get 27 mpg and the conventional would get 24 mpg. One would be saving .0046 gallons per mile. If in city driving one gets 24 mpg with the hybrid and 21 mpg with the conventional (the same 3 mpg improvement) one would be saving .0059 gallons per mile or 28 percent more gain per mile even though the mpg number doesn't look as impressive. The RX330 city EPA number is 19 mpg and presumably it does worse than that under the same variations that move the RX400H city mileage from the EPA rating down to 24 mpg (short trips, high AC, etc). At 19 mpg city for an RX330 versus 24 mpg city for an RX400H, one would save .011 gallons per mile with the RX400H - a much better gas savings than on the freeway.

I expect that if one drove the hybrid RX400H in heavy stop and go versus the RX330 in heavy stop and go one without AC running one would see a very satisfying difference in the MPG numbers. If the same is done in weather with a heavy AC load, one should still see the advantage in MPG numbers and if you calculate the improvement in volume of gas used per a mile it should be about the same difference. The mpg numbers however will look closer together because of the AC load added onto the movement load. (See Dylan Hixon's post at 1878 for an explanation of why.)

I've answered some of your other questions before but I will try again:
When running in city driving, I still only see the ICE come on when I'm actually demanding power that justifies it or when the battery is getting low. The only exception I see to this is right after turn on when the engine is cold. For the initial warm up (first couple of minutes of driving) the engine may come on for any gas pedal pressure even if there is power in the battery and one is only accelerating slightly. Other than that, I don't see the engine cycle on for keeping the catalytic converter hot.

Yesterday, when there was an accident on the freeway that had me in very slow traffic (stop then go forward at a few MPH then stop again) for 15 minutes, I didn't see the engine come on until the AC had run the battery down to two bars.

I don't think it relies heavily on reheat/remix cycle. The AC load, in terms of hit on mileage, seems to be proportional to how hot it is outside. If it was relying on reheat/remix (run the AC at full cooling whenever cooling is needed then use the heat from the engine to warm the air to the desired temperature) then I would expect the AC power drain to be high even when it was only having to cool slightly. I don't see that. Possibly in the RX400H they applied what they learned from the Prius and have it default to not doing the reheat/remix.

I think the catalytic converter heating and the coolant availability for heating (when the weather requires it at least) are contributors to the lower mpg experienced during the first few minutes of driving but not to the steady state conditions.

By the way, around here on the freeway I don't see the ICE on continuously. The freeway is not flat. Cruising on the freeway as I go up and down the little hills I see all the states - ICE only, ICE splitting its power between the wheels and the battery, ICE plus electric to keep up speed on a modest upgrade, electric only on a mild downgrade, regeneration on a steeper downgrade. We often have free flowing but heavish traffic so it goes through the same states as I adjust speed to variations in the traffic flow. It isn't only when the ICE goes entirely off that the hybrid saves gas. When the motors draw energy to supplement the engine so that it can stay at a more efficient operating point or when the conditions don't require all the power from the ICE to go to the wheels and the excess is saved in the battery again keeping the engine at a more efficient operating point, it also improves mileage.

wwest

of and in itself cannot be easily modulated. Older systems had no refrigerant reservoir and used a capillary tube mounted near/against the evaporator face with a variable spring load against the capillary pressure to operate a switch which in turn controlld the compressor clutch. Adjusting the spring pressure via a knob controlled have often the compressor would run and thereby the "average" evaporator temperature.

Almost all modern day system have reservoir and the compressor run when the high side refrigerant pressure drops to the low limit, the reservoir is empty. To prevent freeze up the old capillary system simply controls the expansion valve. IF the evaporator surface starts to decline below freezing the expansion valve closes.

So, the evaporator always operates at about 33F when the A/C is on.

The 2nd gen Prius uses the blower speed to regulate your comfort level when the rehea/remix is disabled via c-best option.

You might try extending you fuel economy the same way I do in most of my vehicles. Turn the system to max cooling and then use the blower speed to regulate your comfort level. Max cooling bypasses the reheat/remix cycle and thereby the A/C will operate much more efficiently.

A few years ago coming across AR with the temperatures in the 100's my engine started overheating. I discovered that one of the radiator/condensor cooling fans had failed and so we drove most of the way across AR with no A/C. Then I realized that if I used A/C on max cooling that would substantially increase A/C efficiency and reduce the load on the condensors and thereby the radiators. Drove all the way home to Seattle that way.

phoebeisis

I should stay out of this,since I'm aiming for a HH,(prices are dropping-Carmax has one for <$32000,and locally-NewOrleans for $33300 and our dealers are predators),but I don't have any sense,so here it is.
These are the figures-and a couple of comments) reported on your MPG thread-25,22.7,28.8,26,19.4(worst,but he does a 1.5 mile commute),29,27,25,22,28.2,24,24.5,29,26,27,25,26.5,23(in Phoenix and using the AC constantly),25(all hy he says his RX330 would do 22 on same route),27,27.06,25.04,28.19,26.25,25.98,27.1,28.41,(these last 6 figures are the "best"-the member gave calculated and nav screen mpg figures over a 1954 mile trip with notes on roads,altitude,AC etc-his trip total was 26.98 calculated and 27.66 by nav screen.He also mentioned that this was about 4-5 mpg better than his RX330 would have delivered-it was hilly,so this wasn't just a straight flat no regen braking hy trip.These are the best numbers here-and they are "good" in all respects)
22(city heavy AC use),24(city),20(very unhappy,no help from Lexus USA-thinks vehicle is essentially" broken" in some way,but Lex says no.I think he has a point-this is 5 mpg less than the rest of you),
Well,that is it.I averaged the 1st 10-it was 25 mpg.Someone else can do a complete average.I am fairly certain that these are NAV numbers not calculated numbers.Thanks to your meticulous member,you could just drop it 1 mpg-his calculated was 1 mpg less than NAV(it might be just his NAV is "off" 1 mpg,but who knows-unlikely to be much more than 1 mpg in any case-HH members have gotten calc and NAV numbers very close-couple of 1/10th)
Worse case,you guys get 24 MPG actual calculated-this is very good by any measure.My Pilot gets 12-13 city and 22 hy(at 74 mph AC blasting in summer).The Pilot,Highlander,and RX330 are actually the best Midsized SUV's in respect to MPG-check CR.Your RX400 will "beat" them like a drum in city mpg.Pure interstate travel will be close mpg wise-no reason it wouldn't be.
When CR comes out with it's report,will have excellent comparative numbers.
My guess is RX400 18-26(CITY HY) the RX330 AWD gets 12-26(CITY HY) in this same test.CR has a very harsh city cycle.The NYT reported didn't lie,but he did essentially a HY trip,so no reason the MPG would be much different.
He did us-late buyers-a favor of course.It forced dealers to D/C the $5000 gouge!!Just pull out that article and bargain!!They are actually at and below MSRP!!Heck,we should all subscribe,and send him flowers!
Luck,Charlie
PS The numbers over at HH are about 1-2 mpg better-just what you would expect.

horns1976

phoebeisis...Are you seeing significant discounts on the 400h in your area?? How much?? I know that the dealer in Shreveport offered $1500-$2000 off in June but he told me after June 30 there would be no discount. In CA, people are still on waiting lists for the vehicle. Wonder what deals will be offered during the Lexus December to Remember Sales Event??

Personally, I think the 400h is nice and it has a lot of power. However, for the price, I think it should have genuine wood trim, satellite radio and better instrumentation. Just my opinion. I understand that satellite radio will be offered in 2006. Perhaps a discounted 2005 RX330 (if available) would be a better deal.

Before purchasing a 400h, my brother considered the HH but he didn't care for the styling and the new, more modern body style is a year away.

phoebeisis

horns1976-$50K an no sat radio-$22000 Accords have had sat radio for a couple of years.We drive ti Flagstaff Az for a week every summer-beat the heat-and the sat radio is a lifesaver in those long stretches od TX,NM,AZ.You can listen to the same station-I don't ,but you could-the whole 1500 miles with perfect reception.We use a Roady in the Pilot-works great!
I'll check on the RX400 asking prices Monday-see what they have to say.I'm lucky to be styling indifferent ,so the HH's blandness isn't a problem for me (heck,I bought a Pilot,and it is just a slightly rounded brick!-The Titan was-is-wierd looking,but the motor is so good...).When car shopping I I just look at numbers(MPG and accel),front seat comfort,rear area room-(for dogs) and price.It would have to be outstandingly ugly to put me off.Thanks.Charlie

dmc1982

Has any owner on this list contacted Lexus about the less than advertised mileage? I too have a 400H and after waiting for over a year on their list I am disappointed with the mileage. We are getting 23.9 which is not what I had expected.
I have contacted my dealer and also Lexus and with no support that satisfies my concerns. In fact, Lexus has not returned my call to the "help" line which is NOT what I would have expected from them.

rx400_owner

dmc, What is your driving profile like and have you compared it to the EPA city and highway profiles? Today we did a round trip of about 180 miles - 90% freeway at 60 to 70 mph most of the time. Temperature for the trip out in the morning was fairly mild but the return was about 105 degrees F. By the monitor in the car, we got 27 mpg. (The car's number has been coming out within a mile per gallon of the calculated number at fill-up - sometimes higher and sometimes lower so I think it is pretty accurate and most of the difference is due to variation in how full the tank is.) Our worst tank was 21.7 mpg - very hot weather and all the driving was 1 to 6 mile trips.Depending on the characteristics of your usage, 23.9 might be normal or might be terrible.

The site
http://www.fueleconomy.gov
has good information on what the EPA ratings mean including how they do the tests and why "your mileage may vary".

rx400_owner

I've put a post on the problems and solutions board about TSIB EG010-05. This is a possible fix for performance problems including reduced mpg and the engine running too much. It might explain why some of us talk about how smoothly our RX400H runs and some say it is terrible.

mzuckerman

I'm getting 23.4 MPG in 90 degree plus weather which I think is very good for a car this heavy with 268 HP. I have a couple of Audi A4 4 cylinder cars with about 170 HP which make 19 MPG. And our VW the same size and weight as the 400h and 310 HP makes 13 MPG. I don't understand why people are disappointed. It is somewhat larger, heavier and faster than a Prius.

jamese777

The following review was in my San Diego Union-Tribune saturday. It is of the Toyota Highlander Hybrid but it references the RX400h as well.
I am NOT posting to rain on anybody's parade, the RX400h is high on my list of prospective new vehicles. I am posting it to continue the discussion and the debate.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050806/news_lz1d6hybid.html

jbollt

There are several contradictions/fallacies in that article.

At one point the author states "..in my test of the Highlander, I was able to get just 16 mpg in highway cruising! That was a trip of about 400 miles each way.."

Yet at another point states (apparently refering to the same trip) "Using the optional onboard computer that Toyota has built into the Highlander hybrid's data center and navigation system, the combination of city and highway driving for 900-plus miles yielded a cumulative fuel mileage average of 21.6 mpg."

Later, he compares a loaded HH Limited to a base HL 4cyl in price. Hardly fair to compare these vehicles with dramaticly different equipment levels.

I would hope that most folks willing to spend $40k (more on RX400h) on a vehicle do their homework before purchase, and realize that one connot compare apples and oranges. (4cly base HL to Loaded HH)

Edit: One last comment...I have driven that route LA-PHX many times in my 05 HL Limited (NON-hybrid) and recieved varying gas mileage, due to strong head winds in the Palm Springs area. This will affect MPG in ANY vehicle, especially one the size and shape (frontal area) of SUVs.

phoebeisis

jamese777-that is pretty interesting-16 mpg is absolutely miserable for highway driving.However,why aren't there any results as poor as that 16 mpg on this RX400 forum,or the HH forum.I have recorded every mpg "tank" about 40+ on the HH forum.The average is 25-269I have to redo them).We have no reports of a single tank under 20mpg-in fact the lowest is 22 or 23 mpg.The story here is a little different(one posted about 18 mpg,but he has a 1.5 mile commute-and a couple around 20 mpg(one in very hot Phoenix)).The average here is about 24-I posted all the numbers about 10 posts back.
I am sure the writer isn't lying,but...
1)He did what was essentially a hy mpg test.There is no reason a HH would beat a regular Highlander by very much on this sort of test.There will be very little regen braking or coasting on this sort of test.The Hybrid won't have any advantage other than the CVT-and that isn't much.
2) He didn't actually test a HH against a regular Highlander on the same day,conditions,speed etc.He doesn't know how the V-6 would have done that day.
3)Most importantly-he drove fast-75+.My bet is that he was doing very close to 80mph.At -80 mph 16 mpg sounds about right for a midsized SUV-.
4)The heat-Phoenix-means the AC was blasting the whole time-.A different time of year would be worth about 1.5 mpg more.
Oh well.Big mystery.There are some owners here with kinda poor mpg,but I haven't seen any 16 mpg reports.Most are low-mid 20's-average at least 24 mpg.Thanks.Charlie
PS Yes, maybe we are getting biased numbers-poor mpg folks might be reluctant to post??I doubt it-folks who buy $55000 cars usually aren't shy-embarrassed maybe-shy-no...

gagrice

In this scenario, the Brave New Era of Hybrid Cars would seem to be a fragile bubble that is vulnerable to being burst.

Writers on both sides of the country are panning the hybrid SUVs from Toyota.
Maybe Toyota would like the bubble to burst and get them out of the low profit car business. It will be interesting to watch what happens. It only takes a couple high roller RX400h owners to make a stink that is heard throughout the automotive world.

I think they could have built that RH & HH to get closer to 40 MPG with a 4 cylinder. I think the Camry should pass that 40 MPG figure with the 4 banger planned for the hybrid.

dewey

I think the Camry should pass that 40 MPG figure with the 4 banger planned for the hybrid.

40mpg with a 4 cyl Camry may be possible. Only one problem! Toyota is going to market its hybrid Camry with a V6(that is the latest rumor I read). That in itself is lousy news for fuel efficiency.

The performance-hungry sedan buyers should buy a rwd sport sedan with a gem of a 6 inline engine and avoid fwd performance cars(hybrid or non-hybrid)

FWD PLUS SCORCHING PERFORMANCE = NEAR FATAL TORQUE STEER

molokai

I haven't read about too much torque steer in the FWD HiHy. I guess the Camry would have the same powerplant. If they do, that's a mistake. It should be essentially based on the Prius with a bigger engine (2.0 liter Atkinson).

molokai

With oil at $63 a barrel today I don't think any bubbles are bursting. What Toyota needs to do is bring more Prius-like fuel economy to the hybrids they're producing. At least they have cash to burn. GM probably won't be able to come up with any hybrids since they have to watch their pennies.

stevedebi

If there were multiple reasons that Toyotay went for performance rather than fuel economy. At some point, the weight of a larger vehicle will cause a small ICE to kick it too much, or to have to little get-up-and-go to power a larger car like a Camry. In other words, hybrid technology may not be up to snuff in making high MPG possible in a larger passenger car. I think that Toyota would have put an I4 in the Highlander if the MPG gains had been available with acceptible performance.

Who (except Toyota) knows?

flatfoot

Check out the unfavorable review in the N.Y. Times / website, auto section.

Flatfoot

gagrice

John1701 posted a Toyota link that says it Will be a 4 cylinder hybrid in the Camry. That is good to hear. Maybe they saw the poor sales figures for the HAH and did not want to repeat. If 80% of Camry sales are 4 cylinder. It stands to reason that those buyers are prime targets for a more fuel efficient 4 cylinder hybrid.

molokai

If it IS a 6 cylinder, it will NOT do well in the marketplace. I hope they realize that. Common sense tells me that it should be a 4 cyl. John usually has very good information, so we'll have to see.

wwest

Using a 3.3L engine with the atkinson cycle would result in an effective displacement of ~2.6L. Even a 2.6L V6 engine requires a significantly larger catalytic converter than does the smaller displacement Prius engine.

And even the smallish I4 Prius engine uses, requires, a specially designed catalytic converter that "stores" unburned hydrocarbons until the engine exhaust has raised the catalist temperature to operational levels.

The atkinson cycle improves fuel economy by allowing more of the fuel's energy to be used during the power stroke. Therefore there is not enough energy, HEAT", left in the exhaust gasses to bring a larger catalytic converter up to operational temperature quickly enough.

The bottom line is that Prius hybrid synergy concept could not be scaled to the level needed to for the RX or HL series so Toyota made the best of a bad deal (HUGE investment) by going for performance over fuel economy.

The GOOD news is that the highway fuel economy seems to be stellar, 28 MPG or better. The best I have ever done in my 2001 AWD RX300 is ~22 MPG.

Considering that my average city MPG is in the range of 15-17 the RX400h's sub 24 MPG isn't shabby.

phoebeisis

The Camry hybrid would be fine with a big 4 cyl(say 135-140 hp)-total HP would be about 190-200.The H Cam will be about 250 lbs heavier-say 3550 lbs-200 Hp is plenty for #3550 lbs.The 4 cyl Highlander is about 3600 lbs and it is OK with 160 hp-a lighter vehicle will do ok with 30 more hp.
The decision on whether to 4 or 6 cyl the HH was probably made 3 years ago-pre war-when gas was $1.30 or so in Louisiana.The Camry decision was probably made a long while back also.I hope it is 4 cyl.
I would bet the EPA numbers would be close to 40 city-about 2/3rds of the Prius-the Prius is heavier than it looks at 2800 lbs-add 25% more weight,and you have a Camry Hybrid.Charlie I think Toyota left just 2 mpg on the table going with the V-6.Look at the Escape H numbers 36/33-it is 550 lbs less and has the 4 cyl.Granted it is a Ford-with all that implies-I just don't see Toyota doing much better than that with a 4 cyl HH.I would have preferred a 4 cyl of course,but I guess that is a year or more away.Thanks.Charlie

dewey

Hori believes that the poor sales of the new hybrids was due to the nearly 20 percent premium customers would have to pay for the &#145;big electric appliance

Based on the blog below sales of HH and RH are dismal in Japan. The Japanese are a bit too shrewd to fall for that ploy called "it is worth the hybrid premium for the performance".

http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000543053589/

and Toyota is beginning to worry that investing in both hybrid and normal gasoline/diesel powertrains for the same model will not pay off. Hori sees that Toyota would need to develop hybrid models that are unique, vehicles without a normal equivalent, in order for the hybrid to be successful.

The above worry is valid! A Prius is a environmental status symbol. A hybrid Camry is a Camry unless you squint your eyes to decipher the hybrid logo on the car's rear end.

falconone

Blogs.... such reliable information.