Lexus RX 400h and 450h

dewey

So is Toyota’s chief engineer for product planning Shigeyuki Hori a unreliable source?

I must say I admire Hori's honesty!

tomzpri

Blogs.... such reliable information.

Actually I followed that Blogs article and it linked to the following newspaper article. It says the author of the article traveled to Japan as a guest of Toyota.

Toyota to rethink hybrid strategy after poor sales of Highlander/RX400h

tomzpri

"In a side by side test, in identical conditions, the hybrid should be expected to get at least one mile per gallon (more) than the V-6 gas model," Hermance says (Toyota Spokesman).

I don't understand the benefit, having to carry around all the extra weight of the batteries and a V6 engine, the extra cost upfront and down the road, and only getting 1 MPG extra on the highway.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050806/news_lz1d6hybid.html

dewey

don't understand the benefit, having to carry around all the extra weight of the batteries and a V6 engine, the extra cost upfront and down the road, and only getting 1 MPG extra on the highway

That is a mystery I myself cannot unravel?

tomzpri

Does anyone know what the emissions standards for the Hybrid Highlander and Lexus RX? (ULEV, ULEV II, SULEV, etc)

I was surprised to read recently that a new V6 Ford Explorer SUV emits fewer emissions per mile than a Hybrid Accord.

Things just don't add up for me with these V6 hybrids.

falconone

I thought that they were getting an average of 6-8 MPG overall. Were they referring to the Chevy Silverado. That hybrid (giggle), gets about 1MPG better. Now that was a waste of money to develop.

frenchorne

RX 400h is SULEV.

hibred

Have any of you found that while going through a car wash in neutral the low battery light comes on and tells you that you have to be in park to have the battery charging . The representation shows the battery down to the last bar.
How have you dealt with this ?

rx400_owner

I've been interviewed by press for stories. Sometimes the quotes have little relation to what I actually said - and that is when the author and I are native speakers of the same language. When there is a translator or one side of the conversation is working in a foriegn language, getting accurately quoted is even harder especially when the subject is also technical.

phoebeisis

No surprise that 4400 lbs vehicles would sell poorly in Japan.The Japanese don't buy USA sized vehicles(ignoring corp presidents etc).
We just don't have any numbers to say that the HH RX400 are selling poorly here.Do we?Thanks.Charlie

sr22

Author of article focused on mileage on a long highway trip. For this type of journey, he should have focused on significantly quicker 50 - 70 (or 60 - 80) mph passing performance with hybrid and 0 - 60mph improvement for merging on freeway.

To appreciate hybrid's impact on mileage, he should compare to non-hybrid when in stop-n-go freeway traffic or around town.

As an owner of RX400h and RX300, we have seen 50% jump in average mileage per fill-up (15.5 to 23+) and much, much better performance with hybrid RX.

Kirstie_H

Please update the e-mail address in your profile to a working address per our membership agreement. Thanks.

rx400_owner

While the biggest relative improvement should be in city driving, we are seeing very good highway mileage as well. On a recent freeway trip of about 90 miles each way, we saw 27 mpg and most of the time we were going between 60 and 70 mph. And that was with the AC running in on a sunny 100+ degree afternnon on the return. Next weekend we will have a long trip on I-5 so I should get a number for doing a full tank at the high end of freeway speed.

That makes it difficult to fathom how the reviewer got 16 or 21 mpg on a mostly freeway test - especially on the Highlander which seems to run a little better mpg than the RX. Maybe there was something wrong with the Highlander he drove, like the problem in the TSIB, but I would think they would make sure that the vehicles they loan to the reviewers are in good shape.

anthonyp

Took a short trip that involve going through small town....Because of the gas prices etc. I was curious to see exactly what would happen in traffic with the new bmw vs the lexus h we almost got....I noticed the mpg slowly rose to twenty four mpg until I got to stop light.. It slowly dropped back while waiting, like about a mile and a half per gallon per light...When I got through the town it was at eighteen mpg...I would think the H would get way better than this as the engine turns off and doesn`t restart until necessary. For short trips the bmw seems to get eighteen mpg as an average....Tony

stevedebi

"I noticed the mpg slowly rose to twenty four mpg until I got to stop light.. It slowly dropped back while waiting, like about a mile and a half per gallon per light...When I got through the town it was at eighteen mpg...I would think the H would get way better than this as the engine turns off and doesn`t restart until necessary. For short trips the bmw seems to get eighteen mpg as an average"

The MPG at a traffic light would not go up, because no miles were being driven (even though the engine is off). However, you would get better overall MPG because the engine doesn't idle at the stops. Depending on the size of your BMW, the HH might get worse mileage for very short trips. Hybrids are not very effective at good MPG for short trips. The MPG difference is a factor of the size, weight, and engine displacement (plus driving styles).

anthonyp

I see your point...At least the mpg doesn`t drop as the engine is off...In my case it is on and the mpg drops, and pretty quicky at that.. Tony

phoebeisis

stevedebi,why would the hybrid do less well than a non hybrid on shorts trips(not very effective)-everthing else being equal?Every vehicle with a ICE motor does poorly the 1st few minutes,but the HH still gets a rebate every time you hit the brakes-no rebate for the ICE only?Is there some system in the Hybrid that makes the 1st few minutes especially "bad"?Thanks.Charlie

stevedebi

"stevedebi,why would the hybrid do less well than a non hybrid on shorts trips(not very effective)-everthing else being equal?Every vehicle with a ICE motor does poorly the 1st few minutes,but the HH still gets a rebate every time you hit the brakes-no rebate for the ICE only?Is there some system in the Hybrid that makes the 1st few minutes especially "bad"?"

I think the ICE does just about the same regardless of if it is warmed up. I never notice a difference myself.

I will defer to the Hybrid experts on this one, I don't own one myself. My source of information on this subject is this forum - it has been well discussed that short trips are very detrimental to hybrid MPG.

Engine temperature is important; the Prius has a special "thermos" tank to keep the engine coolant warm, to make the engine heat up faster. As I recall it keeps the liquid hot for a couple of days. For some reason the HH doesn't have this. It may have to do with keeping the catalytic converter heated up - it has to be hot in order for the car to meet emissions requirements. The HH apparently runs the ICE sometimes just to keep the catalytic convert hot enough.

I suppose by "bad", I mean relative to the full hybrid potential. It is probably still better than an ICE because of the engine shut-off capability.

phoebeisis

Anthonyp.does the calculated mpg match your digital mpg?In the past on many makes and models the NAV mpg was way off-always saying the driver was doing better than calculated.Have you checked your's?On the HH the few folks that have checked have been close(within 1 mpg).One very precide member on the RX400 forum found a fairly consistent 1mpg error -saying he got better mpg than actual.Just curious how well BMW does with these NAV systems.
What does your vehicle weigh?Size-length width?I'm curious how close it is in size to the HH.A well designed station wagon could do very well in hy mpg-they sit lower,have less air going under the front.The 5cyl would give plenty of power.
The member who mentioned the 4 cyl Highlander has a point-the 4 cyl ice highlander would do very well mpg wise(I think a base version is about 3600 lbs).Same story for the CRV,but a bit smaller.Those 2 would be SUV's that could give the HH a run for it'sd money MPG and utility wise.Of course,they are downmarket quite a bit from the HH-much slower,much less lux trim.The High 4 cyl is just about impossible to find with side side curtain airbags-typical Toyota CS when it comes to safety.They would rather sell "vehicle protection pks" than airbags.Honda-to their credit-takes very "nanny" attitude toward their customers;Honda feels they know best what the customers needs in a vehicle-I appreciate that from Honda-they are right of course.If we had waited for most car companies to offer safety items-we would still not have front airbags-but plenty of "leather pks".Drives me nuts!This is the main reason I chose(traded)over the Tundra-no side curtain airbags in 2004,and all but impossible to find in 2005.You can get side curtains on the cheapest XE KC 2WD Titan9exactly what I have).
Sorry to rant.Thanks.Charlie PS I hope a 4 liter straight 6 cyl comes out soon in a truck-it could boost mpg by 25%.

anthonyp

I have been taking the mpg from the trip caluculation only...I guess one of the next things is to actually take the gallons put in the car at the end of a longer trip...The bmw is lighter than the rs by about five hundred pounds or so..It also is not as spacious, but big enough for us..The decision was a very close one as we liked our rx which my daughter is driving now.....Not to compare the rx to the bmw as they are totally different, I was just talking about the mpg...the bmw is also much lwer to the ground which in certain situations could be a hinderance....Tony

phoebeisis

anthonyp,thanks for the weight.It is lower to the ground which occasionally could limit you on crummy unpaved dirt roads.Still,you can avoid them,but no midsized SUV can get 32 mpg hy(not the HH or RX400),and most are having a very good day when they get an honest 20 mpg hy.-thanks to your low ride.Thanks.Charlie

maxamigo

When compare one modern car vs. another, here's a factor that should be taken into account:
->the amount of electrical energy required to keep ALL the electronic "toys" running.

It's hard to compare one car to another unless you know this figure, and it is more apparent when you are at a red light. This means your engine may have to run at a particular load to generate enough electrical energy for all the electronic systems. Thus you'd see your mpg drops at a red light, one car more than another.

I know this because a few years back, there was a huge discussion among automakers on whether to go from a 12v electrical system to a 42v electrical system. They quoted that older cars only need 5kwh to power electrical systems and newer ones, because of more toys inside (electrical power steering, abs, all sort of sensory systems, front radar for speed controls, sound systems, etc.) would need over 12kwh. That's the level electrical power consumption that older generators (pulled by engine belt) have to produce, and they do that inefficiently. A move to 42v generator and systems would be much more efficient.

All that is to say that different cars have different electrical energy requirement, which is a function of electrical systems and the number of systems in the car. And the ICE has to drive a generator to produce that power.

So by definition, a luxury vehicle (means lots of toys) should always has worse mpg than an economy car like a Prius, on the electrical consumption aspect alone. The obvious and major aspect is the vehicle weight.

shadow11

Based on the blog below sales of HH and RH are dismal in Japan

The quote from Toyota surprises me very much and I wonder if it is authentic. I live in Tokyo, and recently I visited a Toyota dealership (where they sell both the Prius and the Harrier Hybrid which is the Japanese name for the 400h).

The Prius and non-hybrid Harrier are both available on relatively short notice, but the waiting list is so long for the Harrier Hybrid that the dealer said he could not get me one until next January at the earliest. He tried to sell me on the non-hybrid version.

The area I live in is a very expensive party of Tokyo, so maybe maybe people here have more money to throw around, and other dealerships have more availability of the hybrids. However, if there really was a glut of Harrier Hybrids here in Japan, you would think that one of Toyota's biggest dealerships would not have a 5+ month waiting list.

I didn't enquire about the Highlander hybrid ... actually, I don't think they had one. The dealer showed me information on all of the hybrids they have available: Prius, Harrier Hybrid, and the Alphard hybrid which is a pretty snazzy mini-van that I don't think is available outside of Japan
.

mydquin

I took my new 400h with 900 miles on it in for service. It was pulling to the right a bit. They replaced the left camber bolt, which reset camber to 0.0 whatever that means. And they did an alignment. Everything works great now. Also, I noticed my hwy mpg jumped from 23-24 to 26-27 (AC set at 76). Not sure if that was related.

I was happy to pay the premium for a hybrid when I bought the car, but now that oil is at $65+/brl, I am starting to think I made the economical decision.

eman5

Can anyone tell me why, when I depress the brake peddle, that left-most dial's pointer dips into the blue zone most of the time, but sometimes doesn't seem to budge? Is regenerative braking variable, a function of the battery's charge? Or would this be a problem, and perhaps one reason I'm only seeing 19-21 mpg?

I'm just curious. Overall, I like the car's performance-- despite its disappointing mpg and nagging "road crown" (dealer's explanation) steering-- and luxury. I'm hoping cooler weather and a broken-in engine will improve my mpg... Thanks for any thoughts.

phoebeisis

Hey, eman5 check mydquin's post.Yes,you could get better mpg if the front end was mis aligned and was "scrubbing".Thanks,CHARLIE

anthonyp

anthonyp

Am sorry to report the bmw get twenty four and a half mpg at mid to high seventies..I am in the mountains of N.C so I took it down and up..Going down thirty or so coming back average the above...Remarkable how much it drops at the higher speed..Anything over seventy or so is poor....When I return to S.C it will be two hundred fifty or so miles and we`l see /// It is fairly warm so air conditioning was on at the low seventies....Yesterday`s trip was on the back twisty roads and really never aboce fifty or so and mostly in the mid forties as to other cars....Tony

jamese777

Only Civic, Insight and Prius will be allowed to buy $8 decals for single person High Occupancy Vehicle lanes in California:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-hybrid12aug12,0,1830351.story?coll=la-home-local

hendjaz

It seems most of the recent comments about the 400h relate to gas mileage. Mileage aside, how do you like the performance (torque, handling, etc.) of the 400h? I am interested in buying and would like to get the whole picture about the vehicle from those that have been fortunate enough to already own and operate one. Leaving mileage out of the equation for the moment, is the 400h fun and spirited to drive or no big deal in that regard? Thanks for your insights.

wwest

is as much fun and spirited to drive as I would expect any SUV to be, no big deal when compared the Porsche 997 C4S. Obviously the RX330 will be even more spirited than my RX300 and the RX400h will be, is, even beyond that.

Personally I would rather have a new RX330 with a decent AWD system (the BMW X3 comes immediately to mind.) than a more powerful, "spirited" RX400h with only a moderate (compared to what could have been) improvement in fuel economy.

mydquin

The 400h is noticably more powerful and has a little more engine noise on take off than the 330. The 400h is dead silent when it idles except when the gas engine cranks up, which causes just a slight lurch.

Also, the fuel economy is significantly better despite what people have recently been saying. You have to remember that all of these reports of low mileage have been coming from people 1) driving in very hot weather, 2) people driving new cars & 3) people comparing actual 400h mileage to the EPA reports of other vehicles.

The AC affects mileage, especially in the city, in a big way. I have noticed that with AC cranked down to 70-72, mileage drops to around 23-24. With no AC, mileage is much closer to the EPA reports in the 27+ range. I suspect mpg reports will start to change significantly this fall. Even now, people from the northwest are reporting excellent mileage.

I did notice a general 1-2 mpg improvement over the first 1000 miles so it does semm like there is a little bit of a break in period.

Finally, the less powerful 330 supposedly gets 18/24 mpg according to EPA, but in reality it's more like 16/21. Other SUVs in the class (eg BMW X5, Porche, Volvo, Acura MDX, etc.) get even lower mpg. The bottom line is that the 400h will save you somewhere around 2000-5000 gallons ($4000-$15,000) of gas in the life of the car as long as the engine is maintained.

Does spending the extra $7-8,000 for a 400h make economic sense? Who knows. If oil stays $65+ per barrel, then probably so... but maybe not otherwise.

The bottom line line is that it is a hybrid. If you don't understand the moral or symbolic reasons for driving a hybrid, then it is pointless to buy one in the first place.

phoebeisis

The actual city mpg for the more fuel efficient 6 cyl midsized SUV's is even worse than that mydquin-according to CR the RX330,High V-6 and Pilot get 12-13 in their fairly demanding city cycle.I can attest that the Pilot gets just that in New Orleans city driving.On the highway the story is different-an honest 22-23 at high speed-72-75 mph.Lesser midsized SUV's do even more poorly-Trailblazer,V-8 Explorer,Durango in any configuration, even the smallish midsized Korean SUV's are huge gas guzzlers.If someone choses a RX400 or HH over an Expedition or Suburban-Tahoe they will half their gasoline bill.
The HH is on average at least 7 mpg(MIXED) than the average midsized V-6 SUV,and at least 4 mpg better than the best of them.Charlie

katzjamr

The 400h is quick and responds with power when cruising, it has a reserve to give you punch at 40, 60 80 or even 100 mph. It is sprung tighter than the 330 giving it good handling for an suv, its not a sports car. Lexus seats are at the top of the most comfortable u will ever sit in. There is no shifting so the transmission will be the smoothest you will experience. There is some tradeoff as the engine revs more under harder acceleration, i find it to be a throaty sound that doesnt bother me. From Nav, to rain sensing wipers to a quality stereo it is very comfortable. HID's that lite up the nite turn with ur steering. It is among the safest suv's with the quantity of airbags, and vehicle dynamic control that helps prevent rollovers. Mine is very happy with regular fuel. I am more relaxed in the hybrid in traffic jams. I have one wish for a darker interior color that is not black, and its alot of money for a vehicle. As you surmise there is alot there besides fuel economy. Lexus did a great job.

hendjaz

Thanks katzjamr for your reply. We took a test drive this weekend and I am sold. Great torque and acceleration. So far the only SUV I thought was more fun to drive was the Porsche Cayenne S. That says a lot for a 6 cyl. hybrid. Now the challenge is to find one that can actually be purchased any time soon. Waiting lists seem to be the norm in the Seattle area.

mirex

I am running a couple of test tanks of 92 octane and appear to be getting just under 2 mpg better than on 87 octane (28.3 mpg 90% highway/10% city). I suspect that the EPA tests were done with premium gas. The economics of an extra 20-25 cents per gallon does not warrant the change so I will be switching back to 87 octane on my next fill up.

rx400_owner

I don't know why, but I do see the same thing. On occasion as I am heading toward a light and start slowing, the generator doesn't whir and the needle doesn't go into the blue. It isn't battery charge that is the reason because it can happen when the battery isn't full. If I am in a situation where I can let up on the brake and reapply then it does go into regeneration. I wonder if it is some sort of software bug. It happens fairly rarely - maybe one time in 10 or less. It doesn't seem to affect my mileage (probably because it doesn't happen very often). We are averaging around 25 mpg which I think is reasonable given the characteristics of our driving and the summer AC load.

You haven't tried going to another dealer with your pull problem? That could be a contributor to poor mileage. If you look at history here and on the problems board, there are people who have gotten the pull solved. For the low MPG issue, there is also TSIB EG010-05. which is a proceedure to reset the learning for the engine idle speed. It can correct poor fuel economy, engine running too often and excess noise at idle.

Sylvia

Your question has been moved to the discussion Lexus RX 400h: Prices Paid & Buying Experience where pricing is being discussed.

Thanks!

eman5

I wish some Lexus engineer would shed some light on this. Another thing I've wondered about is the rarity of seeing the rear wheels driven. Maybe I've been driving too conservatively? (My white-knuckled passengers would beg to differ!)

On the bright, and surprising, side: I just turned 2000 miles, and my mpg on this latest tank (180 miles into it) has risen to 25.5 mpg. Coincidentally, I saw something this morning I'd never seen, the battery bars briefly stacked up into the green. The pull to the right is still there; though I'm used to it, and keeping my left hand on the wheel at all times, I will get it rechecked until someone fixes it.

Sylvia

have been moved to the discussion Lexus RX 400h: Prices Paid & Buying Experience where pricing/availability and dealerships are being discussed.

Thanks!

stevedebi

"The actual city mpg for the more fuel efficient 6 cyl midsized SUV's"

OK, since you mentioned "mid sized Korean", that gives license to mention the I4 CR-V, about 22 in town and 27 Highway. Not the same luxury class or quite as large, but close. Definitely more transportation oriented than lux, but if you want to talk MPG for mid-sized SUVs...

phoebeisis

Hey,stevedebi,that is why I said 6cyl,to exclude the 4CYL Highlander and the CRV-2 vehicles that might come close to the HH in MPG-and are close in size.I had forgotten that one of the Korean ones comes with a 4 cyl and a 6 cyl-both of which give poor MPG.I left the door ope!!Ha,Ha.Charlie
PS There is a big online Honda Discounter in San Antonio-GUNN (bought Pilot there )who offers pretty good prices.They only come about $400 off MSRP on the CRV,so they must be selling very well-no surprise.Base model ~$20200 and change.They offer the Hybrid Accord for $27600 and the Hybrid Civic for $19600.My impression is the the H Accord isn't a big seller,but the Civic is.

anthonyp

As I almost got the Lexus H and have beeen following this discussion, I thought I would post the follow up to my previous posts...Have a bmw sttionwagon 530xi...As reported get around eighteen and a half for the city, above thirty for mountain roads around forty to fifty mph, and now twenty six point one for a two hundred fifty mile trip at around eighty mph--averaged in the mid seventies according to the trip computer....Everything above seventy mph costs more and I watched the mpg slowly drop ...This was a normal trip, higest ninety mph for a brief stretch, and just barely below eighty if traffic permited...The temperature was around ninety degrees so the a/c was on, and set to a comfortable degree as the dials don`t say what degree it is set at ..Sort of strange...Tony

caps04

http://www.carpages.co.uk/lexus/lexus-rx-400h-20-08-05.asp?switched=on&echo=435563164

gagrice

I wonder how many police forces in the USA can afford that kind of luxury for their troops.

falconone

Probably the ones that want their police cars on the roads and not in the shop being repaired.

phoebeisis

The Brits pay $6/gal or more for gas,so a full sized vehicle that gets~25 mpg instead of 12.5 mpg would make a huge difference.Enough of a difference over a lifetime to make up the $20000 or so difference in cost.With the AWD it is essentially all weather-a concern in a nasty, wet, cold place like GB.My calculations show breakeven at 83000 miles-not very much for a Police vehicle,and Toyotas are know to be durable-there are a lot of 175000 mile Camrys out there.Charlie

wwest

as long as we in the US insist on burning fossil fuels, frivalously, at the current level, the Iranians are totally justified in converting to Nuclear power so they can sell all that black gold at inflated prices to the idiots.

phoebeisis

James,I was mainly tongue in cheek about cold ,wet GB;however in every TV show or movie we see about England(like the Basil Rathbone Sherlock Holmes movies or the Jeremy Brett series) rain,fog and visible breath seem everpresent.I would guess that it actually rains more in New Orleans than most of England.
What is your current price per liter for "regular"-the cheapest gasoline?Diesel??
Today regular(87 octane) was $2.44 here in New Orleans near me.Diesel was $2.55 Premium(92 octane) was 2.64.
We currently have very few diesel engines in cars.This is supposed to change dramatically in 2007 when new regs force "cleaner low sulphur diesel' to be produced.One or 2 Volks. and maybe a MB or 2 are about it for diesel cars.During and just after the 1979 oil embargo we had all sort of Diesel cars-Corolla ,Volks,Peugeot,lots of small toyota and Nissan diesel trucks and worst of all an absolute POS Cadillac Diesel.
The main diesels now are large diesel pickups with 6 liter 6cyl and V-8 motors-not really economy vehicles-they weigh about 6000+lbs.
Oh well,let us know what you are paying per liter-we will do the arithmeticX3.76).Thanks.Charlie

wwest

Merry Old England....

Always reminds me of home...

Seattle.

Rain, fog, overcast, etc.

Love it here.