I happened to see a couple of new BMW 5 Series (F10) in a couple of days. I looked in my rear view and spotted a silver 550i coming up from behind. I was struck by how prominent the twin grilles were from ten car lengths ahead.
It's a great looking car but I wish they'd tone the front down a bit. the 5 Series Touring (wagon)
Today I say a black 550GT for the first time, that's the one with the big hatch in the back that's been universally panned (and languishing in sales). It looked better in person than the photos I've seen but not as good as the new Audi A7 I saw last week or the 5 Series Touring (wagon) which BMW may consider bringing back to the US if GT Sales don't pick up.
I'd actually take the Camry over the Sonata, the former doesn't offend me with its pointless poor-mans-CLS curves, and to its credit, the pig snout has been toned down.
I know, shame on me to dare to give criticism to blandboxes or products from the genius Koreans.
Not new, but a lot more Genesis on the road in ATL than SEA. Hyundai does a lot of advertising here - actually saw a billboard for CPO Sonatas (ex rental I bet). Haven't seen a Leaf or a Volt here yet, few Prius too compared to at home - here where consuming fuel is almost some kind of sport.
Saw another Veloster today. Also many new GLs and MLs - being built.
waiting for a light. A volt drove through (silver of course, they come in any other color?). Then right after that, a Red Fiat 500 that turned into my parking lot at work.
shame on me to dare to give criticism to blandboxes or products from the genius Koreans
It's just gotten old, your criticism is always directed at the Asians. Even when you complement them it's back-handed. Always.
Saw another Veloster today
First full month's sales were strong - 3700 or so. In about 3 months it will outsell the full year's worth of CR-Z sales. I realize it's not a hybrid, but it's a green hatch and that's how Hyundai is positioning it.
The turbo model will launch soon. Turns out they were waiting for the Genesis coupe to get 2 upgraded engines (333hp on the V6, 270 or so on the turbo) to make room beneath it for the Veloster turbo.
3724 Velosters sold, and Accent sales only dipped by 500 or so, so not too much cannibalization.
Sonata still growing, though Optima sales are growing more. Elantra is hot. Santa Fe is hot and the funny thing is it's an ancient design. Tucson did well. Azera was phased out and the new one's not really out yet. Even the Genesis improved.
They're on a roll, basically.
And the funny thing is Hyundai is the bad one, Kia is doing better. the Optima along gained 7000 sales vs. a year ago. Kia is up 106k sales for the year, incredible.
I called it, have been for a while. fintail is in denial. :P
Well, you know what I like to say, if I upset you, you are more than free to skip my posts :P ....but seriously, let's face it, in the realm of automotive history, Asian makes simply do not have a great track record of leading or timeless design. You can choose to protest that statement, but history won't be on your side.
Hyundai's engine strategy continues to amuse me.
I wish the Veloster well, a new model that is both interesting and not another estrogen-filled pointless crossover.
Today in suburban Atlanta saw a Murcielago targa thing...driver was likely some kind of athlete or entertainer, looked a little young to have paid for it with work.
So a company that has historically received virtually infinite amounts of home market federal coddling and bailouts has finally found success. Bully for them. The design aspect isn't all there yet, however.
I'd also like to see if they somehow mix rental sales into those numbers - Hyunkia must be bending over a nice barrel for the fleets.
Hard to call it a sports car even...as it is kind of big and fat to really take to the track - it's fast, but not too sporty, just another chariot for 1%ers, maybe it can drive some to the guillotine :shades:
I mean the "good engine is always just around the corner" ideal...I'd find it hard to buy one if I knew the superior version was coming in no more than a few years. Probably also doesn't make for happy owners of older models (if they even care, which I know is being generous)
You're in denial because all the models you call ugly are selling hand over foot. Face it, people love them. Yes, even the styling.
And it's not just DI, the Elantra doesn't even have that and sales are skyrocketing, they're up a whopping 37%. It's now close to the top sellers in its class.
Funny to see you point to fleet sales after the Mercedes fiasco in September that got the CEO canned. Fact is, only 8% of Hyundai's October sales were to fleets per prnewswire, so fleet sales were down, the opposite of your continuous (and inaccurate) speculation.
Camcords and Civrollas sell by the hundreds of thousands - and not because they look good, but because they are good toasters and refrigerators. No doubt the latest batch of Hyunkias are finally good appliances too. For the average buyer, styling doesn't matter at all so long as it isn't too weird. A design can have no redeeming qualities and still be acceptable to the masses who simply want something that will stop and go until the note is paid. I guess I must repeat myself - Asian makers (Koreans especially) do not have much record of leading or timeless design. Deny it all you want, but in this case, history is black and white.
You think the fleet thing is really what got the NA exec canned. Nice interpretation, but just that. Also a nice distraction from the topic. Don't question the Koreans!
Go to any airport and see all of the Hyunkia products that you can sample for a day or a week. Maybe their government bought them some creative accounting :shades:
MB also had direct injection nearly 60 years ago, but we can just forget that...Hyundai wasn't even copying other designs then, well, maybe of bicycles :shades:
But seriously, I hope they keep it up, it only improves competition.
I guess my problem with that type of thinking is then we start to hear phrases like Soul, Teutonic, and German Engineering. European cars are seemingly graded on a curve, resting on past laurels.
The Koreans are doing well NOW. Whine about a bailout all you want but it paid off dearly for them.
Where's the affordable performance car from Europe? The light sports cars? They'd abandoned those in search of bloated profit makers. How many cars (trucks, lately) do they make under 2 tons? Besides FWD VWs.
Does an X6 have a BMW's soul? What about a Porsche with a VW V6 engine? No way, they're total sell outs.
Sure, I look back and give respect to the BMW 2002, just as I do a Datsun 510. I'd go as recent as the E36 M3, the Elise, or a Boxster. Everything since seems to be more and more complex. Suited for the autobahn, maybe, but for our speed limits? DC area just added 13 speed cams. On top of what we had before. That party's over. Why do we need 4700 lbs vehicles with 650 hp?
I know what teutonic means. I means expensive and overweight.
Germans like complexity for the sake of complexity - doing things just because you can. Sometimes that can have negative results - as it has in many arenas for their ventures, not only cars. Still, most enthusiasts seem to prefer cars from that region, and although the styling has some black marks, it still leads.
The Koreans stumbled and sputtered for some time even with bailouts and much other coddling. I really don't have a problem with it, but let's not make it look like this is all independent success, and those here who cry about the domestic bailouts yet love Hyunkia need to think about it.
Hyunkia is making some fine appliances now, but still aren't up to speed for design or driving for those who want to exceed the lowest common denominator. A few bright points, many more meh points.
Germans like complexity for the sake of complexity
Finally, we agree.
Feels uncomfortable, let's get back to disagreeing.
even with bailouts and much other coddling
Don't the Germans enjoy similar coddling at home? How much are imports taxed? I'd say everyone enjoys some home field advantage.
those here who cry about the domestic bailouts yet love Hyunkia need to think about it
That's a fair statement, but I was pro-bailout, as you know. I also know who you are referring to, but he's not active in this thread.
I'm not even decided on the Veloster. Part of me thinks it's odd, another part likes the affordable fun angle. Prices start at $16k and it only weighs about 2600 lbs, so I give them credit.
Even if we allow $10 grand more to set a price limit, the only interesting/fun car from Germany is the GTI and it weighs over 3000 lbs.
I guess I'm sour over the fact that Germany created the affordable pocket rocket class, then adandoned it.
Actually, I would bet a base Golf at just $18k would still trounce a Veloster. The 180hp 2.5 isn't exactly a slouch. Plus, according to Edmunds, the Veloster starts at $17,300 not including destination. So only $700 separates them.
I haven't driven a Veloster, but its going to have to be darned good to beat out that solid German feel.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Yes, a different class, but you started the comparison. :P
It looks like both come equipped basically the same other than the wheels (which comes to a $2k MSRP difference in the end, and a $1520 difference per TMV). And, yes, of course the Veloster gets better mileage, in exchange for much less utility and comfort. The usual trade-off it seems.
If we are talking about an enthusiast that wants a GTI, that's not a person looking at the Veloster anyway.
Anyhoo, whole point is that Germany hasn't exactly ditched the hot hatch category altogether, as you suggested. Is 3k lbs excessive? Yeah, maybe. But it would be tough and very expensive to build something as roomy and solid with less mass.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The bloat will depend on all that they change. If they start putting on bigger brakes and wheels, you'll probably see a good 250-lb increase. If it is JUST bolting on turbo parts, look for more like 100-150 lb add-on.
Surprisingly, the GTI is only about 150-lb heavier than the Golf. I suppose that 1 less cylinder offsets all the other upgrades.
Isn't the latest word that they ARE bringing the Up! car here? Wonder if they'll do a performance version of that.
I'll tell ya, I appreciate low weight ... but only to an extent. It isn't everything. In autocrossing my 3 different cars this year, I found my GTI to be the most fun, even moreso than my '85 MR2. That tells me ALOT! I now plan on selling off the 'yota because I just don't enjoy it like I thought I would.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
....wedgewood blue Chrysler 300 traveling north on Verree Road near Shelmire Street in NE Philly. Also spotted dark blue Chevrolet Cruze sedan on Ripley Street between Tabor Avenue and Bingham Street.
This device will be able to follow up to 32 vehicles across four lanes at the same time...also more difficult to spot, as it can be mounted on a tripod or road sign
This may be the thing that stops the nuclear arms race when it comes to high HP cars.
Then again maybe not, as if you can afford a 650hp machine, I doubt these tickets would affect you.
And without that complexity, an insane amount of the mass production innovations we enjoy today wouldn't exist. It goes back for decades, and we as enthusiasts are better off for it.
I am not aware of any special taxes for Korean cars in the EU - anything there must not be significant - and as they do actually sell there (small cars anyway as they become more pointless as size grows), I don't see a problem. I don't know if anyone else operates like that federally coddled chaebol, and via that how much underdog status can really be taken - this isn't like Tucker or something.
I like the Veloster because it is cheap and cheerful. It's kind of weird and it is no beauty, but compared to the Civrolla world, wow. If I wanted a different commuter box and had to buy new, I'd give it a look.
Not many real pocket rockets out there anymore - not huge profit margins on them I bet, more money to be made from blandboxes and mommymobile crossovers.
Oh yeah, new car sighting - new style Versa trunkback sedan. Gives me a strong Dacia vibe just like the old Versa.
The people who can afford the supercars should spend a few $$ and hire some other types of "businessmen" to "compete with" cowardly camera company execs and the bribed useless public sector empty suits who do business with them. Orwell is laughing his head off right now - and it will all be done in the name (lie) of "safety".
All cameras should be put to a public vote. It's at best shady business practices otherwise, well connected "entrepreneurs" greasing palms to receive undeserved loot. The French had good ideas for these types once.
I think a lot of places deliberately don't assign points for camera caught infractions because by doing so the court has a lower standard of proof on the police. Essentially, the camera ticket becomes more like a zoning enforcement matter than a traffic law matter.
Yeah, I think those have crept up in price and weight. WRX/STI, Ralliart/EVO, Golf R, MazdaSpeed3, Cooper S JCW - none are cheap. Or light for that matter.
Let's see the Fiat 500 Abarth esse esse. I bet even that'll get spendy.
The FT86, too, if it ever gets here.
Versa went down hill from the previous design. At least the old hatch gave you C-segment room for a B-segment price. New one just looks cheap.
Comments
It's a great looking car but I wish they'd tone the front down a bit. the 5 Series Touring (wagon)
Today I say a black 550GT for the first time, that's the one with the big hatch in the back that's been universally panned (and languishing in sales). It looked better in person than the photos I've seen but not as good as the new Audi A7 I saw last week or the 5 Series Touring (wagon)
which BMW may consider bringing back to the US if GT Sales don't pick up.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Had an ///M/// emblem on left side of the trunk lid, opposite the model designation.... :surprise:
How is it that you can't be satisfied with a $75K car?
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You don't like the daringly-styled ones (Sonata). So why complain?
The BMW X3 is also approaching saturation around here.
Best sighting down there tho were the Maserati Coupe's, the (2) SLS's I saw, a couple of Astons, and even a Porsche Carerra GT!
Never been to Key West before but I highly recommend it for both car fans and the non fans. :shades:
You reminded me - saw a new Civic hybrid down in the garage. First hybrid that I've noticed.
I know, shame on me to dare to give criticism to blandboxes or products from the genius Koreans.
Not new, but a lot more Genesis on the road in ATL than SEA. Hyundai does a lot of advertising here - actually saw a billboard for CPO Sonatas (ex rental I bet). Haven't seen a Leaf or a Volt here yet, few Prius too compared to at home - here where consuming fuel is almost some kind of sport.
Saw another Veloster today. Also many new GLs and MLs - being built.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
They do. In fact, I've seen them on the road in black and red as well. I've seen pics of it in Blue Topaz Metallic, fantastic color!
It's just gotten old, your criticism is always directed at the Asians. Even when you complement them it's back-handed. Always.
Saw another Veloster today
First full month's sales were strong - 3700 or so. In about 3 months it will outsell the full year's worth of CR-Z sales. I realize it's not a hybrid, but it's a green hatch and that's how Hyundai is positioning it.
The turbo model will launch soon. Turns out they were waiting for the Genesis coupe to get 2 upgraded engines (333hp on the V6, 270 or so on the turbo) to make room beneath it for the Veloster turbo.
So the Veloster appears to have a bright future.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/hyundai-motor-america-shatters-its-all-t- ime-sales-record-set-year-end-2010-133011548.html
3724 Velosters sold, and Accent sales only dipped by 500 or so, so not too much cannibalization.
Sonata still growing, though Optima sales are growing more. Elantra is hot. Santa Fe is hot and the funny thing is it's an ancient design. Tucson did well. Azera was phased out and the new one's not really out yet. Even the Genesis improved.
They're on a roll, basically.
And the funny thing is Hyundai is the bad one, Kia is doing better. the Optima along gained 7000 sales vs. a year ago. Kia is up 106k sales for the year, incredible.
I called it, have been for a while. fintail is in denial. :P
o A car.
o 4 road wheels
o IC engine
o Doors
o Carry passengers and luggage
That's the end of the comparison. A true classic of automotive design, the DS, vs a bland, stretched, german sports car. No contest.
Hyundai's engine strategy continues to amuse me.
I wish the Veloster well, a new model that is both interesting and not another estrogen-filled pointless crossover.
Today in suburban Atlanta saw a Murcielago targa thing...driver was likely some kind of athlete or entertainer, looked a little young to have paid for it with work.
So a company that has historically received virtually infinite amounts of home market federal coddling and bailouts has finally found success. Bully for them. The design aspect isn't all there yet, however.
I'd also like to see if they somehow mix rental sales into those numbers - Hyunkia must be bending over a nice barrel for the fleets.
Why?
Veloster will have the base 138hp engine and a turbo with 170-200hp depending upon who you ask.
Genesis coupe will bump the base 2.0T power to 274hp or so, and the upgrade V6 will offer 333hp.
So no overlap at all. That strategy makes sense to me.
And it's not just DI, the Elantra doesn't even have that and sales are skyrocketing, they're up a whopping 37%. It's now close to the top sellers in its class.
Funny to see you point to fleet sales after the Mercedes fiasco in September that got the CEO canned. Fact is, only 8% of Hyundai's October sales were to fleets per prnewswire, so fleet sales were down, the opposite of your continuous (and inaccurate) speculation.
Didn't the Genesis get the DI V6 about the same time Mercedes rolled out DI on their 350 models?
What's the difference?
I'm actually impressed that a much lower priced brand is outpacing just about everyone with the rollout of DI, even some luxury brands.
That is incredible.
Gov. Motors fleets sales have dropped as well, but they still hit 27%... Hyundai's drop is much more impressive.
You think the fleet thing is really what got the NA exec canned. Nice interpretation, but just that. Also a nice distraction from the topic. Don't question the Koreans!
Go to any airport and see all of the Hyunkia products that you can sample for a day or a week. Maybe their government bought them some creative accounting :shades:
But seriously, I hope they keep it up, it only improves competition.
I guess my problem with that type of thinking is then we start to hear phrases like Soul, Teutonic, and German Engineering. European cars are seemingly graded on a curve, resting on past laurels.
The Koreans are doing well NOW. Whine about a bailout all you want but it paid off dearly for them.
Where's the affordable performance car from Europe? The light sports cars? They'd abandoned those in search of bloated profit makers. How many cars (trucks, lately) do they make under 2 tons? Besides FWD VWs.
Does an X6 have a BMW's soul? What about a Porsche with a VW V6 engine? No way, they're total sell outs.
Sure, I look back and give respect to the BMW 2002, just as I do a Datsun 510. I'd go as recent as the E36 M3, the Elise, or a Boxster. Everything since seems to be more and more complex. Suited for the autobahn, maybe, but for our speed limits? DC area just added 13 speed cams. On top of what we had before. That party's over. Why do we need 4700 lbs vehicles with 650 hp?
I know what teutonic means. I means expensive and overweight.
The Koreans stumbled and sputtered for some time even with bailouts and much other coddling. I really don't have a problem with it, but let's not make it look like this is all independent success, and those here who cry about the domestic bailouts yet love Hyunkia need to think about it.
Hyunkia is making some fine appliances now, but still aren't up to speed for design or driving for those who want to exceed the lowest common denominator. A few bright points, many more meh points.
Finally, we agree.
Feels uncomfortable, let's get back to disagreeing.
even with bailouts and much other coddling
Don't the Germans enjoy similar coddling at home? How much are imports taxed? I'd say everyone enjoys some home field advantage.
those here who cry about the domestic bailouts yet love Hyunkia need to think about it
That's a fair statement, but I was pro-bailout, as you know. I also know who you are referring to, but he's not active in this thread.
I'm not even decided on the Veloster. Part of me thinks it's odd, another part likes the affordable fun angle. Prices start at $16k and it only weighs about 2600 lbs, so I give them credit.
Even if we allow $10 grand more to set a price limit, the only interesting/fun car from Germany is the GTI and it weighs over 3000 lbs.
I guess I'm sour over the fact that Germany created the affordable pocket rocket class, then adandoned it.
Elantra.
Another BMW X3, all over the place.
Parked right next to an Infiniti EX.
I haven't driven a Veloster, but its going to have to be darned good to beat out that solid German feel.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
People love McDonald's hamburgers too. That doesn't make them good hamburgers.
The base Golf is near 3000 lbs and once you add alloys you're above $20k.
Now you're looking at $3 grand differential, and an enthusiast will step up to a GTI anyway.
Golf is in a different class anyway. Hyundai will launch a new i30 soon, that'll be in the same class.
Sonata's power output, fuel efficiency, warranty, and technology are at or near the top of its class.
It's no longer all about the price.
It looks like both come equipped basically the same other than the wheels (which comes to a $2k MSRP difference in the end, and a $1520 difference per TMV). And, yes, of course the Veloster gets better mileage, in exchange for much less utility and comfort. The usual trade-off it seems.
If we are talking about an enthusiast that wants a GTI, that's not a person looking at the Veloster anyway.
Anyhoo, whole point is that Germany hasn't exactly ditched the hot hatch category altogether, as you suggested. Is 3k lbs excessive? Yeah, maybe. But it would be tough and very expensive to build something as roomy and solid with less mass.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I remember the narrarator asking, "What IS that?"
A 2600 lbs car is going to feel quite a bit different than a 3000 lbs car. Let's see if Hyundai can avoid bloat when it adds the turbo model.
I guess I'd be happy to see a Polo GTI here, as I think that's more of a modern 1984 GTI than the actual new GTI is.
Surprisingly, the GTI is only about 150-lb heavier than the Golf. I suppose that 1 less cylinder offsets all the other upgrades.
Isn't the latest word that they ARE bringing the Up! car here? Wonder if they'll do a performance version of that.
I'll tell ya, I appreciate low weight ... but only to an extent. It isn't everything. In autocrossing my 3 different cars this year, I found my GTI to be the most fun, even moreso than my '85 MR2. That tells me ALOT! I now plan on selling off the 'yota because I just don't enjoy it like I thought I would.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/25/rendered-speculation-vw-up-gti/
I also liked the beach buggy one.
This device will be able to follow up to 32 vehicles across four lanes at the same time...also more difficult to spot, as it can be mounted on a tripod or road sign
This may be the thing that stops the nuclear arms race when it comes to high HP cars.
Then again maybe not, as if you can afford a 650hp machine, I doubt these tickets would affect you.
Scope creep is already taking hold in Chicago. They're planning to use red light cameras to issue speeding tickets as well.
Maybe it depends on the jurisdiction.
I got one from Deleware and they go out of their way to tell you just to pay, that you won't get points, etc.
I'm sure it's just about $$$.
Quick... someone take away my checkbook! :P
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I am not aware of any special taxes for Korean cars in the EU - anything there must not be significant - and as they do actually sell there (small cars anyway as they become more pointless as size grows), I don't see a problem. I don't know if anyone else operates like that federally coddled chaebol, and via that how much underdog status can really be taken - this isn't like Tucker or something.
I like the Veloster because it is cheap and cheerful. It's kind of weird and it is no beauty, but compared to the Civrolla world, wow. If I wanted a different commuter box and had to buy new, I'd give it a look.
Not many real pocket rockets out there anymore - not huge profit margins on them I bet, more money to be made from blandboxes and mommymobile crossovers.
Oh yeah, new car sighting - new style Versa trunkback sedan. Gives me a strong Dacia vibe just like the old Versa.
All cameras should be put to a public vote. It's at best shady business practices otherwise, well connected "entrepreneurs" greasing palms to receive undeserved loot. The French had good ideas for these types once.
Yeah, I think those have crept up in price and weight. WRX/STI, Ralliart/EVO, Golf R, MazdaSpeed3, Cooper S JCW - none are cheap. Or light for that matter.
Let's see the Fiat 500 Abarth esse esse. I bet even that'll get spendy.
The FT86, too, if it ever gets here.
Versa went down hill from the previous design. At least the old hatch gave you C-segment room for a B-segment price. New one just looks cheap.