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Comments
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20050527-9999-1n27hydrogen.html
There you have it in a nutshell. Your new million dollar car can go 100 miles out into the desert, and AAA can tow you back. What a "Pie in the SKY" waste of our tax dollars. Unless we go to nuclear power there is no way hydrogen fuel cells are even close to feasible. They are a bigger waste of time, money and energy than the hybrids. The automobile industry is out of control and out of touch with reality.
Be patient mi amigo !!!
EV-1 owner writes:
With the Gen 2 EV1 with Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries at the same ocean residence, my Wakeup range is 150 to 160 miles, with an actual range 120 to 150 miles. Including hills, I have been getting mostly between 130 and 140 miles. For me, charging has become unnecessary, although I charge when there is a public charger to 'Show the Flag'.
Tell me why you and Mitsubishi are the only ones who think EV is viable, after the marketplace failures of their predecessors?
Seems to me like a "plug in Hybrid" is the best idea for today.
"[RenewableEnergyAccess.com] Modine Manufacturing Company announced it is now supplying humidification and water management components to Volkswagen for their fuel cell hybrid vehicle - the Touran HyMotion."
http://renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=31259
Dateline: TORONTO, Ontario, May 27
"Purolator Courier Ltd., Canada's largest overnight courier company, today introduced ten hybrid electric vehicles (HEV) and one hydrogen fuel-cell hybrid electric vehicle (FC-HEV) into its Toronto curb-side delivery fleet at a news conference at the company's Metro West facility. An additional 20 HEVs will also be integrated into Purolator's fleet in other major metropolitan areas in Canada.
After analyzing the environmental impacts of its operations and services, Purolator identified fleet fuel usage and vehicle air emissions as the best way to reduce its environmental footprint. The HEVs are expected to eliminate up to 50%, and the FC-HEVs up to 100%, of greenhouse gasses currently emitted with conventional gasoline/diesel delivery vehicles. If the experience of these vehicles lives up to expectations, then as Purolator replenishes its fleet each year - the company intends to add up to 400 HEVs to its fleet annually. "
http://www.prdirect.ca/en/view_release.aspx?TrafficID=2837
You must not have read your own article. $1,000,000 per car is outrageous. I know the government and GM spent a couple billion developing the EV-1. That is old pork and now the new pork is hydrogen fuel cells. What a way to spend our tax dollars. Mitsubishi sees a market for all electric vehicles. It would be the best solution for my around town car and most anyone that only drives 3-6 miles a day. Hybrids don't get good mileage the first few miles just like most cars, so why spend the extra cash for them.
Hybrid advocates are not much different than the EV soldiers. Just as you would lay in front of the bulldozers when they decide to crush all the hybrids. There were people willing to pay to keep their leased EV-1 vehicles. Instead GM said no way and took them all to the graveyard for wasted tax dollars. The only reason the hybrids are doing as well as they are is no additional infrastructure is needed to power them. I am still waiting to hear how Toyota is going to totally recycle the Prius. I guess you give it to them or pay them to take it when it quits and is no longer cost effective to repair.
Why not? VW wants some of the government "PORK" that is being thrown around the World. Next will come the vehicles with a windmill on top for the cloudy windy days and solar panels for the hot clear days. A real steal at $5 million bucks a pop, of our tax dollars.
We are all better off that GM and the Govt (we taxpayers) spent the money on the EV1 project. What it proved is that "EV technology and EV vehicles are A) not really that viable an option, and
That second point is the most salient and the most true: just because the SMALL NUMBER of drivers and owners of these EVs "swear by them and would not sell them for any amount of money" does not mean that millions of people could use these vehicles and suffer with the limitations (mileage, etc) that the vehicles inherently come with.
And your point that EV drivers and Hybrid advocates are the same is not correct. What's different? Hybrid cars are marketable, are selling, and have no limitations which limit their every day usage.
And hybrid cars are not the first cars which have been declared "80%+ recyclable" either - many have had that statement by the car builder before now. Once again, that is not a Hybrid deficiency or blemish - they may or may not get recycled completely, but AT LEAST the POTENTIAL to do so is there. Just like the POTENTIAL to achieve 55+ MPG is there. It's not the technology at fault - it's what people DO with the technology that matters. Blaming the hybrids because they may not get recycled completely is like blaming trees because all paper does not get recycled.
See?
Don't let the Pure Electric Vehicle be killed, now that the right technology is available.
OVONIC=company that invented the NiMH battery
NO Pork left there, onto hybrids and fuel cells....
How do you know? They were never given a fair chance. How many electric RAV4s did Toyota build? Were they all sold? Remember our tax dollars paid to develop the NiMH battery. Where is my royalty check? Oh I guess it is in the pockets of Toyota and Matshushita who tried to steal the technology from OVONIC. I would buy a small car with a 150 mile range that could be plugged into the household current long before I would buy into the complexity & high cost of hybrids The bottom line is what I said before. They are too simple and cheap to build and repair. The biggest worry is the battery and you have always said that is the least likely part to go bad.
Remember: The RAV4 EVs were $40,000 !! You think people whine about the Hybrid Premium !!??!! The EV premium is WAY WAY worse !!!
Both EV and hydrogen will exist when we demand such alternatives. Currently we dont demand such alternatives because nothing beats petroleum based fuels in terms of value(even if the prices doubled).
There are very few candidates for a EV or hydrogen today! Except maybe a very small minority of eccentrics who drive their Priuses without shoes in order to maximize fuel !
BUT having said that do not write-off Mitsubishi EV for 2010. I read this will be an electrical Colt not a two seater. An electrical Colt at 15k sounds like a potential marketing success to me(reasonable price, a back seat, no gas, hatchback provides decent interior space---what more do you want???)
According to Toyota the 2000 Prius cost $35k to build so they should have sold for $40k. They subsidized them why not the EV? I'll tell you why. They have figured out how to scam the public with the hybrid and go around CARB by never letting the battery become an issue. It is used so little as to almost be worthless. So it lasts longer and Toyota is off the hook. You call it smart I call it automotive "Smoke & Mirrors". I am glad for Edmund's as it has brought to light much of the problems surrounding the hybrid technology. Common sense says steer clear. Just most people don't want to be blasted by the hybrid hype. I don't care I call them as I see them. If the battery in the EV is more than the value of the vehicle what is the cost of the hybrid battery? More side stepping on that one I am sure. And I would bet that Toyota will not let out the figures if they do have batteries to replace.
The California Air Resources Board published a guidance statement regarding EV battery life. The guideline stated that when the battery capacity decreases to less than 80% of the original capacity, the battery needs to be replaced. A battery's capacity is the amount of charge that it holds, and is commonly measured by the range of the vehicle. It is cost-prohibitive to replace an EV battery. The cost to replace the battery is more than the value of the vehicle.
http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/ravev/rav4ev_0_home/index.html
Until gas can be purchased in little bottles or cans like the afformentioned fluids, that comparison is moot.
We will not see huge (absolute) gains in MPG for Explorers, Expeditions, Tahoes, etc., or full sized pickup trucks. They will get somewhat better (relative) MPG compared to non Hybrid, but talking 40 MPG for a Ford Expedition is just nonsense. The thing weighs over 6000 lbs.
The Chevy is meant for construction jobs where the crew needs the 110 volt power outlets.
Then why do hybrids like the Prius and Escape get better fuel economy at low speeds, in city driving? Aerodynamics have little impact at 30 mph. However, it does help a car as big as the Prius get good fuel economy on the highway (a higher EPA rating than the smaller HCH), even when it's running on only its gas engine.
In the case of the Escape, partially because the large frontal area has an impact on MPG based on the speed of the vehicle. In any case, the HSD allows either vehicle to run on electric only at low speeds, which increases mileage. And third, the heavy weight of the Escape requires a lot of gas to accelerate - the hybrid electric propulsion helps get the mass going when acclerating from a stop. All of these contribute to better mileage in town. As you may know, the hybrid (and all cars) will get better mileage at 60 MPH than 80 MPH; this is largely due to the aerodynamic forces increasing with the speed.
"However, it does help a car as big as the Prius get good fuel economy on the highway (a higher EPA rating than the smaller HCH), even when it's running on only its gas engine."
The Prius cannot run on it's gas engine alone. The electric motors are always on and running. Sometimes the engine supplies power directly to the motors, sometimes to both the motors and the battery.
Also, in my opinion, the Prius is not a "big car". It acheives mid size only because it is a hatchback. If it were offered in sedan it would be compact class.
I don't think the Prius is a "big" car either, and I didn't say it was. But it's bigger than the HCH yet returns better highway mpg. That demonstrates the value of superior aerodynamics--but that's not just for hybrids. In any case, I don't agree with your earlier statement that "As weight and aerodynamic frontal area go up, the advantages of hybridization go down." There are still advantages such as fuel economy and lower emissons as both weight and frontal area increase. For example, compare the fuel economy and emissions of a V8-powered RX SUV with the like-performance RX400h.
I might not be the sharpest tool in the kitchen, but I can't follow that logic at all - please elaborate......????? :confuse:
Please post your evidence that the statement is false:
"As weight and aerodynamic frontal area go up, the advantages of hybridization go down."
What I mean is that you won't see high MPG numbers on large SUVs. Even the smaller SUVs like the Highlander and RX400 are only seeing MPG in the late 20's. The fuel savings (which I consider the real advantage of hybridization) associated with Hybrids are less with larger, heavier vehicles.
As to the Prius using gasoline engine alone: Even at highways speeds, the electric motors add propulsion. This is actually an advantage to the system. I highly recommend the Toyota website, which has a great animated demonstration of HSD:
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2005/prius/key_features/pc/index.html
At highway speeds, the ICE powers both the wheels and the generator, skipping charging the battery. But I don't want people being confused about the Prius getting it's propulsion only from the ICE, when in fact it gets propulsion from both the ICE and normal electric motors at all times. I do see your point - the generator for the electric motor is fed from the ICE - but I hope you see mine, which is that the actual propulsion going to the planetary gearset is being driven by electric means at all times. The ICE kicks in at higher speeds (resulting in dual power inputs to the planetary gearset), but the electric motors don't quit. So in the traditional sense, the Prius is never propelled like an ordinary ICE vehicle (by gasoline alone tied to a mechanical drive system). That is what I meant by my statement about the Prius never being run by gasoline alone. I suppose with such a complex system I shouldn't make such generalized statements, but then I was going for brevity. Guess that idea went out the window.
The HCH does have the capability to run purely in gasoline/mechanical mode, but then it never runs only on electric motors...
SIMPLICITY! The EV-1 with the NiMH battery was very simple and had a range that was adequate for 99% of the people. It did not suffer from poor mileage on short trips to the store and it got the equivalent of over 200 MPG. Now that should be enough to tell you why they are loved by the owners/lessee and not by the corporate world. Jump forward to the Hybrid. VERY COMPLEX! Lots of stuff to break and parts to sell after the 36k miles has gone by. Good for corporations bad for the consumer. Notice how they manipulated US. They raise the price of fuel and then say hey have we got a deal for you. I'm not buying into their games. They also raise the price of diesel beyond what it is worth to discourage their acceptance as they are being accepted in the EU. I don't think you will find many people jumping on the hybrid bandwagon in Europe. They already have a better solution.
Here's the proof you asked regarding the fact that hybridization is advantageous even as weight and frontal area increase:
The RX 400h's EPA combined fuel economy rating of 29 mpg exceeds the average for new compact sedans and marks a 38 percent improvement over RX 330 AWD. At 31 mpg in the city, it also gains a 72 percent edge over RX 330 and exceeds most V8 and many V6-equipped luxury SUVs by over 100 percent.
http://www.autointell.com/asian_companies/toyota_motor/lexus-cars/lexus-rx400h/lexus-rx400- - h-04.htm
Fuel economy improvements of about 100% compared to vehicle of the same size and performance--very heavy vehicles with large frontal areas--seems advantageous to me. Also, I am not aware of any other SUV in the same class as the RX400h (or similar Highlander Hybrid) that achieve SULEV emissions. I think that's advantageous, also.
All vehicles under 6500 lbs will be SULEV in a couple of years so that's not an issue.
Also, the RX330 and RX400h do not have similar performance. Compare the fuel economy of SUVs--typically V8s--with the same performance as the RX400h and you see a much bigger difference in fuel economy than 30%--more like the 100% mentioned in the article.
As for the future... yes, emissions should improve in the future. I was commenting on vehicles available now.
http://dontcrush.com/
100 MPG alternative to the factory Prius.
http://www.calcars.org/
Please point me to a link that authoritatively proves that, as you said above, "We gave GM, Toyota & Ford Billions of dollars to develop super clean electric vehicles." I'm particularly interested in your claim about Toyota (receiving US tax dollars for that purpose).
As usual your questions can be easily answered.
Did you bother to think that Toyota and GM would have to continue to make parts for the electric vehicles if they sold them to the public? To make parts for future repairs for a very small production run worth of vehicles is pretty ridiculously expensive! You know, a little thing called *economies of scale* comes into the picture.
Railroadjames (Free-Us Prius)
P.S. Every time I see A (9mpg) Hummer I Smile!!
The annual government share of budget is expected to include $29 million or more for vehicle technology, $40 million for advanced ICE, $20 million for materials, $5 million or more for manufacturing, and $57 million for electric and hybrid vehicles. An infrastructure project is underway at nine major sites located close to industry and covering a wide range of climates. Industry manufacturers gearing up for the 1998 California zero emission vehicle (ZEV) program include Honda, Mazda, Nissan, and Toyota. Other Japanese manufacturers participating in the cooperative activity include Daihatsu, Mitsubishi, Isuzu, and Suzuki.
http://www.ncseonline.org/NLE/CRSreports/energy/eng-9.cfm?&CFID=2337432&CFTOKEN=26989749
Maybe for you it is a no brainer. If what you say is true. Why would they sell some of the RAV4 electrics and not all of them. Maintaining parts for One costs as much as 300. In fact as has been pointed out the more they sell the easier it is to justify. 2nd, why did Toyota subsidize the first Prius to the tune of $15- $20k per car and they did not do the same for the RAV4 electric? The first Prius was not a big seller from 2000-2003. Japan gave Toyota $8,000 per car early on for the Prius sales. Not sure if that was a Japan only sales or not.
First, Toyota is still subsidizing the current Prius, but it's much less than the first generation. Second, the RAV4 electric vehicle was merely a testbed for technologies. I do not believe it was ever meant to be a mass production vehicle. Hence, it was basically only sold to fleet buyers. Third, EV vehicles are not exactly user friendly. Did you ever think about that?? Where is a customer going to charge a full electric vehicle? And how long does it take to charge? And how long does that charge last? And lastly, a full EV vehicle isn't exactly pollution free. Coal or some other natural resource is burned somewhere to power the car.
The Prius was more of a sure bet because the infrastructure to keep it user friendly is already there-gas stations.
My understanding is, Toyota bought back all of the EV RAV4s and GM took back all of the EV1s off of lease.
"Maintaining parts for One costs as much as 300. "
Sorry, keeping a parts manufacturing operation for one vehicle costs more than for 300 units, ideally. Building the parts to keep a few hundred Rav4s running well into the future is alot more expensive than building the parts to keep a few hundred thousand Prius' well into the future.
Answered in previous post, EVs had no immediate future to begin with.
"I'll tell you why. They have figured out how to scam the public with the hybrid and go around CARB by never letting the battery become an issue. It is used so little as to almost be worthless."
Really? If it's a *Scam*, how does the Prius get great gas mileage? How does the Lexus RX400h get noticeably better gas mileage than the RX330 while still being faster and heavier? Doesn't seem like much of a scam.
How much friendlier do you want than plugging your car in when you go to bed and have it ready to go 150-200 miles the next morning? Or plug it into the charger at Costco while you shop for a quick charge. You are also mistaken about who bought the RAV4 vehicles. They were available to the public. some of those that leased them, were given the opportunity to purchase them and did. When Toyota decided to drop the vehicle in 2004 they were starting to see interest in the Prius and did not need the RAV4 electric to look green anymore. Ford was going the same route as GM & Toyota with the crushing of the electric Ranger PU trucks. They thought better of it and allowed them to be purchased by those that wanted them. The pollution from coal generated electricity is the same lame excuse that is repeated over and again. It was started by those in the Oil industry that could see their profits being eroded by these cars that did not use a drop of fossil fuel. Many owners have solar collectors on their homes to charge their EV's. The bottom line is this: are we interested in cutting back on our use of fossil fuel or just a little? As long as we don't give up anything and can still "FEEL GOOD" we will go for it, such as the RX400h & HAH. Some one driving an RX400h is polluting nearly twice the amount of a person driving a Corolla, and at least 10 times as much as the guy in the RAV4 electric. Yet the hybrid looks "Green" so it must be a good thing. Toyota is already stuck with maintaining parts for the few RAV4's that are sold. What is a few more to them? They could afford to keep them in their lineup just as Honda keeps the Insight. If they were subsidized & promoted with the high profile that surrounds the Prius, they would have sold much better. Did you ever see one on a Toyota lot? If I was given the choice of a 50 MPG Prius and a 125 MPG RAV4 or electric Ranger PU, it would be a no brainer. That would be perfect for my under 10 mile trips.
The Prius gets decent mileage with it's little tiny engine generating electricity for the motor, and a slight kick from the batteries from a stop. If the battery is only used in the 20% to 80% range that is not a lot. It is filler at best. I would think you would be enthused about a vehicle that gets anywhere from 100 to 200 MPG equivalent. Or do you just fall in step behind the automaker's, thinking they know what is best for us? Then again maybe the BIG guys in the oil industry told Toyota & Honda to cool it with the high mileage cars.
So they used some of the EV technology to build a compromise vehicle, the Prius, to keep the oil barons happy. You buy a hybrid and you play into their hand.
http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/ravev/rav4ev_0_home/index.html
http://www.evworld.com/archives/testdrives/rav4ev.html
Question: are electric cars hybrids?
If a family can only afford one car, it is unlikely to be a hybrid or an EV. Both are at a premium for the sake of being environmentally conscientious. There is still no way that a hybrid is an economical choice compared to other vehicles in the class. We don't need to argue that aspect as we probably disagree. Both the hybrids and the EV's are there for the upper middle class buyers to make a statement. We want to save the environment and conserve on fossil fuel. I don't understand how it can be argued that an EV is not practical as a commuter vehicle, in a multi car family. EV's at the very least get twice the mileage of the best hybrid. A few of the hybrids give an appreciable increase in fuel economy. Not the RX400 or HAH. If you drive the counter parts as we are finding you have to drive the hybrids you would get close to the same mileage. To get 4-6 MPG increase in the RX for a $10k premium is a joke. Same goes for the HAH to a lessor extent. I personally think the automaker's especially Toyota are making fools of the American buyer, taking advantage of our weakness, with concerns of the environment.
EV's did not catch on because they were not advertised & subsidized by the automakers as the hybrids are.
Picking on specific current offerings has absolutely, positively nothing to do with what will be available a few years from now... when the R&D to create HSD will be paid for and a decent profit can be obtained.
Remember, hybrid designs like HSD were intended to be used in the entire fleet of vehicles being offered. Analyzing just one or two configurations as if that's what all the vehicles using it will have is neither constructive nor objective.
Wanna discuss a hybrid Camry with just HSD, none of the extra goodies that Prius comes with standard? That's an entirely different ballgame.
JOHN
Since you won't answer my question, I will: EVs are not hybrids.
You keep saying there are big increases in mileage between the RX400h and comparable SUV's. Those that have owned the RX330 say the highway mileage is about the same. Plus the city mileage on short trips is not very good with the hybrid either. That is my point. 90% of my trips in town are under 3 miles. The EVs are not subject to those negatives. EVs are not hybrids. Hybrids are EVs. And I did try to buy an EV-1 in 2000. They were lease only. I only buy cars for cash. I am not going to fill the bankers pocket with interest money. That is when I came across the Prius which I test drove, and wanted to buy it.
The simple truth, which is often overlooked in these comparisons, is that the RX400h is NOT comparable to the RX330. To be comparable, you'd need to drop a V8 into the RX330, or compare the RX400h to other V8-powered SUVs to get comparable performance. That is where the 100% fuel economy improvement I mentioned comes from, and which the article I posted earlier pointed out.
If that would happen I would clap my hands and cheer!
But will a no-frill hybrid Camry exist?
Unlikely, very unlikely!
I have a strong hunch based on observing the pricing of Toyota hybrid SUVs and the HAHs that the upcoming Camry will be loaded like the HAH at a significantly premium price . And premium priced mainly to reflect all the frivolous gizmos (other than the costs of hybrid tech) that I certainly can live without!!!
If I am wrong, I would be pleasantly surprised!
If I am correct, I would be angry that I am correct! :mad:
What does that have to do with after the introduction of HSD into at least one model of each vehicle type is complete?
Remember, there is no real competition yet and the R&D still needs to be paid for.
JOHN
You call plugging it in and waiting overnight for a full charge that will maybe get you 200 miles *user friendly*????? Excuse me, but who else sees that as user friendly???
BTW, what happens when you need to drive more than 200 miles in a single day??
You know, I don't see any Costco's, BJ's, or frankly any other places around here that have quick charge centers available just for Electric vehicles. How many do you have in your neighborhood?
"Many owners have solar collectors on their homes to charge their EV's. "
Well, this doesn't exactly say much, considering very few people are willing to spend the big bucks it costs to put solar panels on their house's. You make the claim hybrids don't make sense because they don't recoup the additional cost, well solar panels at this time pretty much don't make financial sense either. ANd you can blame the government for that!
"Some one driving an RX400h is polluting nearly twice the amount of a person driving a Corolla"
And your proof on this is where?
Do you think anybody buys your arguments here? do you think nobody reads the RX400h board to see what mileage people are reallly getting???
The average RX330 owner gets under 20MPG in mixed driving. From the RX400h boards, people are posting over 25MPG on average. Some are posting below 25MPG, but most are posting numbers above 25MPG. Please give the B.S. a rest.
I am willing to pay for the technology I want(hybrid), not for the gizmos I do not want(any distracting luxury that does not improve my driving experience).
On behalf of all future hybrid buyers I want to thank you for subsidizing Toyota's R&D endeavors (assuming you purchased a hybrid). People like you will make it possible for future hybrids to be an economically justifiable purchase(maybe in a few years). Keep up the subsidies!!!;)
http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story.asp?StoryId=CqPQpWeidDxmTAhLICMLKCW