The US Army is going to use hybrid military vehicles. Costs about $100 a gallon to use gas in Afghanistan/Iraq(transport costs included). That is pretty steep!!!
"recently ended her three-year lease of a 2002 Prius. She bought it from the dealer for $11,000, then sold it to a private party for $18,000."
Regarding that LA Times article: How could anybody with a sound mind purchase a used 02 Prius for 18k. If I was an underemployed psychiatrist I would pursue this buyer as a potential client!
There is a seal reinforcement done on inside the hood too.
This was done to prevent moisture from being able to interfere with invertor. Because if it did, the result could be a stall.
None of the stories seem to be even remotely aware of this preventative work though. I had mine done last fall, and naturally haven't had any trouble at all. I also know of someone that actually had the stall happen before he had that work done. He hasn't had even a burp since then (last fall). That update did the trick. So naturally, I get really skeptical about these reports... especially since they are so horribly vague. Heck, for all we know a couple of those reports could have actually been just running out of gas.
Did you see any Insights? Does the UK have high speed roadways where sustained high speeds are used?
No I didn't see any Insights. Their main highway which they call Motorway or "M" have a speed limit of 70 mph. But most cars were going well over that. The taxi we were riding in was going about 80 and some cars passed him as if he was standing still. I saw an Aston Martin racing a Ferrari; both cars were going at least 130. My uncle who lives in London drives an Audi A6 TDI. The only hint of diesel is when you start the car up in the morning. Once you start driving the car, it is indistinguishable from its gasoline counterpart. Pretty smooth and quiet. It gets about 38 mpg highway and about 32 city. Hybrids are somewhat of a novelty in Europe and still have a long way to go to catch up with its diesel and gasoline counterparts.
"So naturally, I get really skeptical about these reports... especially since they are so horribly vague. Heck, for all we know a couple of those reports could have actually been just running out of gas."
Not to mention that some of the people were obviously very distraught. One lady was on the hospital to check on her daughter when the Prius failed. Her post was nothing short of heart rending.
Interesting thought about the hood seals, I wonder if some of these events happened in wet weather. But I would have thought that Toyota would've sealed the electrical components, since the underside of the engine bay is still open to the road. Or at least I assume it is open; I don't own a Prius.
> did the dealer notify you of this preventative update?
I got a notification from Toyota corporate via regular postal-mail. So I called in for an appointment, not giving the dealer an opportunity to notify me. But if I wouldn't have already known, the person righting up the work-order is suppose to look to see if there are any SSC & LSC needed.
The one person I know that had the stall occur was really ticked off, because he had his Prius for less than 1,000 miles. That tainted his "new car" experience. He was unwilling to accept to the fact that a fix was already available and that he one was of the few people ever to have a problem. His dealer really should have performed the update before selling him the Prius, but that didn't happen.
It's an unfortunate situation. But then again, vehicles really aren't expected to be absolutely perfect the first year anyway. (Though in a way it is nice that Prius is held to a higher standard.) HSD was brand new then. And as far as we know, the problem is now prevented.
I suspect this will blow over, simply by not have the necessary detail available... like has a stall ever happen after the updates?
"Sales of hybrids in the US increased 2.3 times in May 2005 to 16,887 units from 7,275 units the prior year. However, results for all automakers were down from the torrid pace set in April."
Several points in the article struck me. 1st letting the automakers do the testing. That is like letting the fox tend to the chickens. 2nd. If the tests were run REAL world as suggested only the first 3 hybrids would be above the old 1975 CAFE mileage standard of 27.5 MPG combined. If we are serious about saving fossil fuel, two things need to happen. We need smaller more efficient vehicles and we need to start producing fuel from renewable sources. Hybrids started out doing that. Now they are part of the problem, bigger and more powerful is better. I will bet anyone that a real world test on the RX400h will not yield 27.5 MPG combined. The new HAH is only getting 26.3 MPG in the EPA "average user MPG". A far cry from the advertised 32 MPG combined.
They let the car manufacturers do the lab work themselves using the prescribed methodology. And the cars that are tested are not production line vehicles, they're usually prototypes.
It is impossible to make a rational decision about a car's efficiency levels without real numbers.
If a person buys a car that is supposed to go from 0-60 in 6 seconds and it takes 8 seconds, he will not be pleased. The same goes if you buy a hybrid that is supposed to get a combined mileage of 55 MPG and you have to drive like an old lady to get 48 MPG.
How much do you want to bet? Real world fuel economy for half of the drivers reporting on greenhybrid.com for the RX400h (2 of 4) is 28 mpg or better--which is over 27.5. And the mean and median mpg for the HAH on the same site, based on 31 samples, is 29.4 mpg, with 13 owners reporting an average of at least 32 mpg.
As for what a hybrid is supposed to get... yes, if I drove a hybrid--any car, actually--exactly as it is done on the EPA tests and got a significantly lower mpg result then I would not be happy. But that's not how the EPA numbers work, folks. I don't know how many times that simple fact needs to be repeated before it is understood by car owners.
I think the HCH and the Prius have achieved their goals as fuel savers. No doubt about that! On a conservative scale, the Prius gets DOUBLE the mileage of most cars out there. It gets TRIPLE the mileage of most SUVs. The HCH is just a tad below in its mileage. When the Camry rolls out, it too will probably provide MUCH better mileage as well. The RH clearly gets better mileage than the RX330. It may not sound like alot (avg 7 MPG) better, but it headed in the right direction. The Insight is often overlooked but most people do not want a two seater as their primary car. That car's mileage is exemplary! The HAH is a wonderful combination of performance with the mileage of a 4 cylinder engine. Yes, hybrid technology is headed in the right direction. Nothing you say can dispute that. What GM and Ford have to realize is that American is finally realizing the SUV days are going to wane. Thank goodness!!! Viva la hybrid baby!!!! Get used to it!!!
"This was the 10th award and 6th clean sweep for the 1.0 liter Insight IMA engine, which continues to make it the most successful engine since the awards started seven years ago."
I don't disagree with the finding on greenhybrid. I think that is the best "Real World" statistics we have. What I am saying is if the EPA ever changes their testing procedure to mimic every day driving (75 MPH+ highway), the RH will not get 27.5 MPG. There are owners that are not thrilled with the mileage right now. They spent $10k more for the hybrid than a comparable RX330, and expected what they saw on the window sticker. If someone that visits the forum regularly came up with that complaint I would say too bad. Most people do not read this board before they buy a car. Only after when issues arise. As for the HAH check the EPA "real world MPG". It is 26.3 MPG. Not my figures. If a person buys an HAH and it only does 0-60 in 8.1 seconds, does he have a legitimate complaint? That is the same percentage difference in the MPG.
I don't quite follow you on, "...if the EPA ever changes their testing procedure to mimic every day driving (75 MPH+ highway), the RH will not get 27.5 MPG." What a car gets for fuel economy in the real world isn't dependent on the EPA tests. As I pointed out, some RX400h owners are getting over 27.5 mpg in the real world right now.
If you wish to draw the conclusion about the HAH's fuel economy from the 3 owner reports for the HAH on fueleconomy.gov, go ahead. Personally I'd give more credence to the much larger sample on greenhybrid.com. Also, I noticed that of the 3 HAH owners who reported on fueleconomy.gov, one is averaging over 34 mpg. As for 0-60, I doubt most everyday drivers achieve the fastest times as measured by the car mags, because those require aggressive driving techniques that most people don't use. But if I did use exactly the same techniques as the professional drivers in the car mags, then I'd expect the car to get close to what they wrung out of it. Just as I'd expect to receive close to the EPA mpg estimates if I drove a car exactly like it is driven in the EPA tests.
If the highway portion of the EPA test is now run at 45 MPH it is a big difference from running the same test at 75 mph. At a constant 55 MPH I get 42 MPG at a constant 75 MPH it drops to 35 MPG. I don't think the RH will get great numbers at 75 MPH, if the EPA adopts a realistic "Real World" test. Those that are posting their RH numbers are averaging 26.5 MPG. The RH with the most miles has the lowest average of 24.4 MPG. I am not saying that is bad for that kind of vehicle. It is just not the kind of improvement that is needed to cut down our use of fossil fuel. We still want our cake and eat it too.
I'd expect to receive close to the EPA mpg estimates if I drove a car exactly like it is driven in the EPA tests.
That is fine for those of us that know that the tests are not realistic. How about 99% of the people that just know what is printed on the window sticker? If it said your mileage may be lower if you drive over 50 MPH then the consumer would have been warned. I consider it deceptive advertising whether it is perpetrated by the EPA or the automakers. Remember those in Congress feed at the same trough as the automakers.
"The RH with the most miles has the lowest average of 24.4 MPG. I am not saying that is bad for that kind of vehicle. It is just not the kind of improvement that is needed to cut down our use of fossil fuel. We still want our cake and eat it too. "
Will you get off this stuff already? you're beating the same dead horse to death over and over again!
Let's say the average RX400h is getting 25MPG in average driving. Well, the average RX330 probably gets about 18MPG in average driving. Seems like a significant increase! Do the math, what's the % increase?
"It is just not the kind of improvement that is needed to cut down our use of fossil fuel. "
Well, if every convential SUV and car was replaced by a hybrid version, wouldn't you see noticeable decreases in fossil fuel usage? You count 16 million cars a year sold in the US and if each and every car used 33% less fuel, well that would be a major fossil fuel saver. Can you see that picture? How do you expect ONE single product(the RX400h) to produce a noticeable decrease in fossil fuel usage? I mean Lexus may sell 30-40K RX400h's this year. Take that number and divide into the 16 million plus cars sold in the US each year, and it comes out to about 0.18%! Are you expecting gas prices to go down based on those sales figures?
"If the highway portion of the EPA test is now run at 45 MPH it is a big difference from running the same test at 75 mph. At a constant 55 MPH I get 42 MPG at a constant 75 MPH it drops to 35 MPG. I don't think the RH will get great numbers at 75 MPH, if the EPA adopts a realistic "Real World" test."
Yeah well, do you realize that if the EPA increased the highway testing speed to 75MPH, ALL cars EPA highway numbers would drastically decrease?? I know if they did that my Accord V6's highway number would drop from the EPA number of 28 to about 25MPG.
Here is an interesting Nissan hybrid vehicle! Although the styling is another matter. Looks like a convoy used to carry people in orange suits escorted by guards.
You've written "check the EPA "real world MPG" in a couple of messages on a couple of forums recently. You also included a link to fueleconomy.gov in your post #2004 in this forum.
That link provides only the typical bloated EPA MPG figures. Please indicate where you are suggesting that we can "check the EPA "real world MPG"? I'd appreciate a link.
It looks like this is something new that EPA has started for the hybrids especially. They are putting actual owners mileage under the EPA estimates on the page for each vehicle. It is available for all cars. I think it will be useful for people that go to the EPA site to get mileage information. They have "Real world MPG" posted for the HAH, HCH & Prius plus others.
When it comes up to Find a car pick 2005, Honda, Civic hybrid. the page that gives all the info about emissions and mileage. Right under the EPA estimates is a new area for Real World MPG. That is where you can go and put your mileage for your HCH and bring up the average a bit....
It requires some digging to locate the numbers to which you've referred. Probably because the fueleconomy.gov website doesn't use the term "real world MPG". Instead, when you drill down, they have a line that reads: "Fuel economy estimates from drivers like you". Those estimates are based upon respondent's use of the "Your MPG" link at the top of the site's page.
It is interesting to note the depth (or lack of same) of information represented by the estimates. Until thousands more drivers become aware of the website and religiously enter fuel use data as requested, I fear that the figures will not be particularly representative of real world mpg. I say that, based upon looking at figures for only four vehicles (all with automatic transmissions) as follows.
2004 Honda Accord I4 - Three respondents - Averaging 26.9 mpg 2004 Honda Accord V6 - One respondent - Averaging 24.7 mpg 2005 Honda Accord Hybrid - Three respondents - Averaging 26.3 mpg 2004 Toyota Prius Hybrid - Eleven respondents - Averaging 48.6 mpg
The figures are skewed because they are based upon each drivers' variable percentages of types of driving varying all over the lot from 10% Stop & Go and 90% Highway to 90% Stop & Go and 10% Highway. There also is no indication of how many miles each motorist in the sampling has driven.
It needs a lot more input from owners to be an effective tool. The best site at this time for hybrids is greenhybrid as far as I know. There you get enough drivers to get a feel for what you may get.
How about this for a conspiracy theory: all those numbers were put in by fake people trying to affect things.
Seriuously, until the number of respondants gets into the thousands a few people with an agenda can skew the results any which way they want.
As has been suggested before, the partial answer to the issue is to have the EPA reconfigure the way the milage test is preformed.
A simple short term solution to the fossil fuel usage problem is to simply get folks out of their gas guzzlers into something like a 4 cyl Accord. No need for the hybrid. The first part seems to be happening by the sales numbers posted last month but they didn't go the Accord.
The Prius gets nearly twice the average fuel economy of the 4 cyl Accord. This is why hybrids are selling like hotcakes. Give me a 4 cycl accord that easily achieves 45-50MPG and I'm sold. Also add in some goodies like the Prius has.
The Camry sales are OK. I think the reason the Accord has lost so much ground over the last year is the new model is just not very attractive. The last model series was a much nicer looking car.
"Hybrid" is just a label, one now being exploited by various designs. So, it really doesn't matter.
You have to look deeper, taking actual operation into consideration.
"Full" and "Assist" designs have very little in common, yet they are both called hybrids. Then you've got vehicles that do nothing but shut off the engine when you stop; they're called "hybrid" too.
"That is my point. The EPA ratings and the CAFE mandates are a big joke. And the automakers are making a mockery of the process."
Ah but does it ultimately matter what EPA figures may get lowered to?? not really since all cars would have readjusted EPA mileage figures. Along with the EPA figures changing, the CAFE figures would probably change to. So the 2 changes would probably cancel each other out.
My biggest gripe with the system is the way they can build some vehicles, PUs & SUVs without adhering to the CAFE standard. If vehicles had to meet a realistic 27.5 MPG combined or get dinged as gas guzzlers, what do you think the reaction would be? In Southern CA we are driving in a sea of 1 ton crew cab PU trucks. They are all lifted with monstrous tires. No way they get over 8 MPG. These trucks make the Hummer2 look like a Tonka toy. Hopefully the hybrids will get back to high mileage vehicles. It will take many years for them to make a dent in this mess of vehicles.
If they tacked another buck on per gallon, and the money could ONLY be used for highway and bridge maintenance and building I would think it would be OK. Problem is they use that money for everything else and the highways go to pot.
I'd be willing to pay more for smooth roads that are well maintained. But you're probably right. Once they get their grubby paws on that money, they'll spend it on something else. Just thank goodness you don't have to traverse the Verazanno Bridge in NYC (it connnects Brooklyn and Staten Island). The toll is $9 r/t!!!
NOW that is informative hybrid news showing a wide spectrum of possibilities for different people with different needs, everything from diesel Jetta to propane truck.
If a car that maximizes gas saving is referred to as a geekmobile--I will buy that geekmobile and try to live with the notoriety of being labelled a geek.
In fact I am referred to by many as geek no matter what I drive!!! Driving a BMW does not save me from geekdom
Nissan wants to sell 50,000 Hybrid Altimas per year:
"Auto Week reports that Nissan is targeting sales of 50,000 Altima hybrids per year, starting next year with US production of the car.
“Thay’s the number we’re looking at,” says Tadao Takahashi, Nissan’s executive vice president in charge of global manufacturing. “We’d like to catch up” with other automakers.
Nissan unveiled its 2007 Altima hybrid prototype in June 2004. The company is partnering with archrival Toyota for the hybrid system components, combining those with Nissan’s own four-cylinder gasoline engine technology."
The fact that Nissan is combining the hybrid system with a 4 cylinder engine is very promising. Hopefully the mileage of the Altima will be significantly superior to the 6 cyl HAH.
And hopefully it will be availble with a manual tranny(unlikely, but there is nothing wrong in hoping)
Comments
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_23/c3936057_mz013.htm#ZZZGNY9N69E
Of course, the gas mileage is a plus. But the military has never particularly cared about MPG anyway...
Prius has few mechanical problems:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-prius1jun01,1,3940247.story?coll=la-headlines-busine- - ss
Regarding that LA Times article: How could anybody with a sound mind purchase a used 02 Prius for 18k. If I was an underemployed psychiatrist I would pursue this buyer as a potential client!
This was done to prevent moisture from being able to interfere with invertor. Because if it did, the result could be a stall.
None of the stories seem to be even remotely aware of this preventative work though. I had mine done last fall, and naturally haven't had any trouble at all. I also know of someone that actually had the stall happen before he had that work done. He hasn't had even a burp since then (last fall). That update did the trick. So naturally, I get really skeptical about these reports... especially since they are so horribly vague. Heck, for all we know a couple of those reports could have actually been just running out of gas.
JOHN
No I didn't see any Insights. Their main highway which they call Motorway or "M" have a speed limit of 70 mph. But most cars were going well over that. The taxi we were riding in was going about 80 and some cars passed him as if he was standing still. I saw an Aston Martin racing a Ferrari; both cars were going at least 130. My uncle who lives in London drives an Audi A6 TDI. The only hint of diesel is when you start the car up in the morning. Once you start driving the car, it is indistinguishable from its gasoline counterpart. Pretty smooth and quiet. It gets about 38 mpg highway and about 32 city. Hybrids are somewhat of a novelty in Europe and still have a long way to go to catch up with its diesel and gasoline counterparts.
billmarg
Not to mention that some of the people were obviously very distraught. One lady was on the hospital to check on her daughter when the Prius failed. Her post was nothing short of heart rending.
Interesting thought about the hood seals, I wonder if some of these events happened in wet weather. But I would have thought that Toyota would've sealed the electrical components, since the underside of the engine bay is still open to the road. Or at least I assume it is open; I don't own a Prius.
I got a notification from Toyota corporate via regular postal-mail. So I called in for an appointment, not giving the dealer an opportunity to notify me. But if I wouldn't have already known, the person righting up the work-order is suppose to look to see if there are any SSC & LSC needed.
The one person I know that had the stall occur was really ticked off, because he had his Prius for less than 1,000 miles. That tainted his "new car" experience. He was unwilling to accept to the fact that a fix was already available and that he one was of the few people ever to have a problem. His dealer really should have performed the update before selling him the Prius, but that didn't happen.
It's an unfortunate situation. But then again, vehicles really aren't expected to be absolutely perfect the first year anyway. (Though in a way it is nice that Prius is held to a higher standard.) HSD was brand new then. And as far as we know, the problem is now prevented.
I suspect this will blow over, simply by not have the necessary detail available... like has a stall ever happen after the updates?
JOHN
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/06/us_hybrid_sales.html
The whole story here:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/06/gas_prices_and_.html
http://www.getunderground.com/underground/features/article.cfm?Article_ID=1853
getunderground.com==creative resistance designed for the emancipation of the human spirit
They let the car manufacturers do the lab work themselves using the prescribed methodology. And the cars that are tested are not production line vehicles, they're usually prototypes.
It is impossible to make a rational decision about a car's efficiency levels without real numbers.
If a person buys a car that is supposed to go from 0-60 in 6 seconds and it takes 8 seconds, he will not be pleased. The same goes if you buy a hybrid that is supposed to get a combined mileage of 55 MPG and you have to drive like an old lady to get 48 MPG.
As for what a hybrid is supposed to get... yes, if I drove a hybrid--any car, actually--exactly as it is done on the EPA tests and got a significantly lower mpg result then I would not be happy. But that's not how the EPA numbers work, folks. I don't know how many times that simple fact needs to be repeated before it is understood by car owners.
http://www.japancorp.net/Article.Asp?Art_ID=10229
I don't disagree with the finding on greenhybrid. I think that is the best "Real World" statistics we have. What I am saying is if the EPA ever changes their testing procedure to mimic every day driving (75 MPH+ highway), the RH will not get 27.5 MPG. There are owners that are not thrilled with the mileage right now. They spent $10k more for the hybrid than a comparable RX330, and expected what they saw on the window sticker. If someone that visits the forum regularly came up with that complaint I would say too bad. Most people do not read this board before they buy a car. Only after when issues arise. As for the HAH check the EPA "real world MPG". It is 26.3 MPG. Not my figures. If a person buys an HAH and it only does 0-60 in 8.1 seconds, does he have a legitimate complaint? That is the same percentage difference in the MPG.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
If you wish to draw the conclusion about the HAH's fuel economy from the 3 owner reports for the HAH on fueleconomy.gov, go ahead. Personally I'd give more credence to the much larger sample on greenhybrid.com. Also, I noticed that of the 3 HAH owners who reported on fueleconomy.gov, one is averaging over 34 mpg. As for 0-60, I doubt most everyday drivers achieve the fastest times as measured by the car mags, because those require aggressive driving techniques that most people don't use. But if I did use exactly the same techniques as the professional drivers in the car mags, then I'd expect the car to get close to what they wrung out of it. Just as I'd expect to receive close to the EPA mpg estimates if I drove a car exactly like it is driven in the EPA tests.
If the highway portion of the EPA test is now run at 45 MPH it is a big difference from running the same test at 75 mph. At a constant 55 MPH I get 42 MPG at a constant 75 MPH it drops to 35 MPG. I don't think the RH will get great numbers at 75 MPH, if the EPA adopts a realistic "Real World" test. Those that are posting their RH numbers are averaging 26.5 MPG. The RH with the most miles has the lowest average of 24.4 MPG. I am not saying that is bad for that kind of vehicle. It is just not the kind of improvement that is needed to cut down our use of fossil fuel. We still want our cake and eat it too.
That is fine for those of us that know that the tests are not realistic. How about 99% of the people that just know what is printed on the window sticker? If it said your mileage may be lower if you drive over 50 MPH then the consumer would have been warned. I consider it deceptive advertising whether it is perpetrated by the EPA or the automakers. Remember those in Congress feed at the same trough as the automakers.
Will you get off this stuff already? you're beating the same dead horse to death over and over again!
Let's say the average RX400h is getting 25MPG in average driving. Well, the average RX330 probably gets about 18MPG in average driving. Seems like a significant increase! Do the math, what's the % increase?
"It is just not the kind of improvement that is needed to cut down our use of fossil fuel. "
Well, if every convential SUV and car was replaced by a hybrid version, wouldn't you see noticeable decreases in fossil fuel usage? You count 16 million cars a year sold in the US and if each and every car used 33% less fuel, well that would be a major fossil fuel saver. Can you see that picture? How do you expect ONE single product(the RX400h) to produce a noticeable decrease in fossil fuel usage? I mean Lexus may sell 30-40K RX400h's this year. Take that number and divide into the 16 million plus cars sold in the US each year, and it comes out to about 0.18%! Are you expecting gas prices to go down based on those sales figures?
"If the highway portion of the EPA test is now run at 45 MPH it is a big difference from running the same test at 75 mph. At a constant 55 MPH I get 42 MPG at a constant 75 MPH it drops to 35 MPG. I don't think the RH will get great numbers at 75 MPH, if the EPA adopts a realistic "Real World" test."
Yeah well, do you realize that if the EPA increased the highway testing speed to 75MPH, ALL cars EPA highway numbers would drastically decrease?? I know if they did that my Accord V6's highway number would drop from the EPA number of 28 to about 25MPG.
Back with the conspiracy theories again? OK, I'm outta this thread. Looking forward to more of larsb's good work in posting articles on hybrids.
That is my point. The EPA ratings and the CAFE mandates are a big joke. And the automakers are making a mockery of the process.
Although the styling is another matter. Looks like a convoy used to carry people in orange suits escorted by guards.
http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000380045381/
You've written "check the EPA "real world MPG" in a couple of messages on a couple of forums recently. You also included a link to fueleconomy.gov in your post #2004 in this forum.
That link provides only the typical bloated EPA MPG figures. Please indicate where you are suggesting that we can "check the EPA "real world MPG"? I'd appreciate a link.
It looks like this is something new that EPA has started for the hybrids especially. They are putting actual owners mileage under the EPA estimates on the page for each vehicle. It is available for all cars. I think it will be useful for people that go to the EPA site to get mileage information. They have "Real world MPG" posted for the HAH, HCH & Prius plus others.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
PS
It is "Average User MPG"
It requires some digging to locate the numbers to which you've referred. Probably because the fueleconomy.gov website doesn't use the term "real world MPG". Instead, when you drill down, they have a line that reads: "Fuel economy estimates from drivers like you". Those estimates are based upon respondent's use of the "Your MPG" link at the top of the site's page.
It is interesting to note the depth (or lack of same) of information represented by the estimates. Until thousands more drivers become aware of the website and religiously enter fuel use data as requested, I fear that the figures will not be particularly representative of real world mpg. I say that, based upon looking at figures for only four vehicles (all with automatic transmissions) as follows.
2004 Honda Accord I4 - Three respondents - Averaging 26.9 mpg
2004 Honda Accord V6 - One respondent - Averaging 24.7 mpg
2005 Honda Accord Hybrid - Three respondents - Averaging 26.3 mpg
2004 Toyota Prius Hybrid - Eleven respondents - Averaging 48.6 mpg
The figures are skewed because they are based upon each drivers' variable percentages of types of driving varying all over the lot from 10% Stop & Go and 90% Highway to 90% Stop & Go and 10% Highway. There also is no indication of how many miles each motorist in the sampling has driven.
Seriuously, until the number of respondants gets into the thousands a few people with an agenda can skew the results any which way they want.
As has been suggested before, the partial answer to the issue is to have the EPA reconfigure the way the milage test is preformed.
A simple short term solution to the fossil fuel usage problem is to simply get folks out of their gas guzzlers into something like a 4 cyl Accord. No need for the hybrid. The first part seems to be happening by the sales numbers posted last month but they didn't go the Accord.
The Camry sales are OK. I think the reason the Accord has lost so much ground over the last year is the new model is just not very attractive. The last model series was a much nicer looking car.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=105918
Definition of Hybrid
it follows that a vehicle using crossbreeding of two means of propusion, irrespective of the two technologies, would be a hybrid.
You have to look deeper, taking actual operation into consideration.
"Full" and "Assist" designs have very little in common, yet they are both called hybrids. Then you've got vehicles that do nothing but shut off the engine when you stop; they're called "hybrid" too.
JOHN
Ah but does it ultimately matter what EPA figures may get lowered to?? not really since all cars would have readjusted EPA mileage figures. Along with the EPA figures changing, the CAFE figures would probably change to. So the 2 changes would probably cancel each other out.
"The Accord has a 255-horsepower engine, compared to 240 in the gas model. It's also the first V-6 hybrid.
"It's not a pussyfoot" like some other hybrids, said Mudd, a 64-year-old retired history and English teacher from Saginaw. "It's not a geekmobile."
http://www.mlive.com/news/bctimes/index.ssf?/base/news-5/1118071021264291.xml
NOW that is informative hybrid news showing a wide spectrum of possibilities for different people with different needs, everything from diesel Jetta to propane truck.
THANKS.
In fact I am referred to by many as geek no matter what I drive!!! Driving a BMW does not save me from geekdom
"Auto Week reports that Nissan is targeting sales of 50,000 Altima hybrids per year, starting next year with US production of the car.
“Thay’s the number we’re looking at,” says Tadao Takahashi, Nissan’s executive vice president in charge of global manufacturing. “We’d like to catch up” with other automakers.
Nissan unveiled its 2007 Altima hybrid prototype in June 2004. The company is partnering with archrival Toyota for the hybrid system components, combining those with Nissan’s own four-cylinder gasoline engine technology."
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/06/nissan_targetin.html
And hopefully it will be availble with a manual tranny(unlikely, but there is nothing wrong in hoping)