According to this EPA Power Point presentation GM IS the leader in every category of fuel efficient cars, trucks, SUVs & Vans. This is a 2005 study by the EPA. Toyota ranks 3rd in models that get 30 MPG or better behind DCX. Anyone have credible data to refute the EPA findings?
How about the Toyota Prius? How is GM the Leader in EVERY category when the Prius gets better gas mileage figures than ANY GM product?
And when you say GM ranks 1st in cars get 30MPG or better, isn't that kinda stretching facts?? I mean GM has like 10 versions of every car across different divisions. How many total MODELS do they have compared to Toyota? Of course on paper they will get that #1 ranking. Huh...let's see you got Saturn division, Chevy, Buick, Cadillac, Hummer, Saab, Pontiac, GMC. What does Toyota have? Toyota, Lexus, & Scion.
Of course GM is better... they make the most reliable cars. Their cars get great gas mileage because they're always on mechanics lifts! GM also makes most of their cars engines with ancient pushrod technology. Perhaps that's why they're selling their cars like its a fire sale. I just have to laugh!!!!!
I believe this discussion started with "what has GM done to save energy? A few on here lambast someone when they come up with an article that says just that. Then they want proof. I show the EPA document and you want more proof. Or you ramble about how many models GM sells. The only mistake I made is to say that Toyota was 3rd. They are actually 4th behind VW then DCX. What many of you need to face is the fact that Toyota needed the Prius to clean up a very poor showing across the board. Those few hybrids do not make them the leader in fuel efficiency. They are not the leader even among the hybrids. The Insight is still the top dog. If Toyota is going to topple number ONE GM they are going to have a battle on their hands. The American people are fickled. If they think some foreign country is about to make them look 2nd class they will quit buying Toyota's like you would not believe. I gave the proof that GM is the most fuel efficient fleet. Show me some proof it is not so. Not groundless arguments that are based on biased opinion only.
I don't think GM did that study. It came from the Dept. of Energy. It amazes me how even when given proof so many people want to make Toyota out the saviour of the automotive industry. Part of the problem is that the big 3 sell a lot of trucks. If you took the fleet average and included the trucks, would that be a fair way to do it. If you took all the vehicles a company builds and averaged out their mileage. You know Toyota would be close to the bottom with all the big SUVs. Even though they sell very few every year. The bottom line is you can take statistics and make whichever company you like look good. So show me a credible study that has Toyota as the most fuel efficient automaker. One high mileage hybrid does not clean up the whole fleet.
What matters more is not the manufacturer with the best MPG fleet, but the manufacturer with the most RELIABLE fleet. I can tell you one thing, it ain't GM! They were a great company at one time, but are very out of touch with their customers. Their redesigned Cobalt is a classic example of a merely warmed over Cavalier with respect to styling. Still the old pushrod technology and nothing innovative. I actually think Hyundai makes more reliable cars than GM today! I don't care if Toyota is even FIFTH on a list. What I want is reliability and that's why I have no problem buying either a Honda or a Toyota. If I want luxury, I would be more than happy to buy the Acura RL. If I want great fuel economy and lots of electronic gadgets, I can buy the Prius. Now GM is scrambling because they didn't realize how well received the hybrids will be. Toyota will continue to hybridize the fleet and HOPEFULLY continue with good reliability. IF the hybrids prove to be expensive to maintain and are not reliable, then I agree their popularity will wane. For now hybrids seem to be the hot commodity in the news.
The "study" you are referring to is a GM marketing presentation which uses certain facts from different sources such as the EPA and Ward's to make the point that GM's marketeers want to make. I am actually surprised you put any stake in this presentation by GM, since it assumes that drivers will achieve EPA fuel economy ratings in the real world, e.g. "You would average 32 mpg on the highway" in the Malibu on a trip to the zoo. They don't mention other data, for example, CR's real-world tests in which the Malibu L4 got 24 mpg overall and the Prius got 44 mpg overall. They don't mention that the best mpg they offer is a paltry 34 mpg, even on a small car like the Aveo. Hybrids like the Civic, Prius, even the Accord blow that away. If you want pretty good fuel economy of around 30 mpg highway on a car, yes, GM offers lots of choices. But if you want really excellent fuel economy such as what cars like the Corolla, Civic (hybrid or non-hybrid), ECHO, and Prius offer, you can't get that from GM. If you want a hybrid car, you can't get that from GM either.
I'll explain this again to you. GM has more models(alot more) so of course they are going to have MORE MODELS that get over 30MPG. Can you not understand that? it's soo simple!
"If Toyota is going to topple number ONE GM they are going to have a battle on their hands. The American people are fickled. If they think some foreign country is about to make them look 2nd class they will quit buying Toyota's like you would not believe."
GM has been on a downward spiral for years and even with all the current bad news about GM, GM sales are going down while Toyota sales are going up in the U.S.
I don't disagree with any of the last 3 posts. Toyota and Honda have had a great reliability run the last few years. GM has not brought much new to the table. That still does not make the hybrids less problematic or complex. Not having a crystal ball I cannot say what the next fad will be in automotive hardware. The simplicity of an energy fuel cell driving electric motors would be nice and simple. I will be surprised if that materializes in the next 10 years. All of you act like the hybrids are going off the lots like free hotdogs. Yes the Prius is still selling good. There are dealers that have them available on any given day now. I don't believe the RH or HH is going to sell as Toyota anticipated. The wait lists got real short when the cars were unloaded off the boat. Some dealers have a wait list, many are ready for someone to walk in and buy.
Toyota Prius reliability is in question throughout the media. If you want to do damage control, it needs to start with people bringing Prius problems to this board. You have a person ready to invoke the Lemon Law on their new Prius because the dealer cannot fix it after 6 visits. None of the Prius owners gave any helpful advice.
"Toyota Prius reliability is in question throughout the media. If you want to do damage control, it needs to start with people bringing Prius problems to this board. You have a person ready to invoke the Lemon Law on their new Prius because the dealer cannot fix it after 6 visits. "
Does that outweigh the 30 Toyota models (Lexus & Scion not included) that get less than 25 MPG combined? I did not see a single Toyota vehicle that offers alternative fuel such as CNG, LPG or E85 in the Toyota lineup. When matching the Toyota Tundra 4WD to the Chevy Silverado 4WD the Chevy has a slightly larger V8 that gets better mileage and dumps almost 1 ton less GHG per year. In the 2WD version GM offers a hybrid that gets 11% better gas mileage than the Tundra 2WD and dumps 1.3 tons less GHG per year. The Chevy Suburban far outshines the Land Cruiser for mileage and GHG. I think if you did an honest assessment across the lines that GM does pretty good in a fuel economy comparison to Toyota.
If any of you have had bad experiences with GM reliability I can understand your dislike of the brand. I have had nothing but great experience with the last 4 Chevy vehicles I have owned. As a matter of fact I am thinking of taking advantage of the latest GM promo and buying a 3/4 ton Duramax PU truck. The prices have never been better. I was going to buy used. Everyone thinks their used truck is worth more than a new one.
PS VW has 10 models that get over 35 MPG combined. I could only find 4 Toyota models with a combined 35 MPG. None of the Camry's even get 35 MPG on the highway. So the Malibu beats the Camry on all models.
Once again we run into people trying to PROVE something or change the other guy's mind. That's just not going to happen here, so let's just discuss things, agree to disagree and move on. Don't fall into the trap of escalting things into a presonal fight, PLEASE.
After seeing all the opinions concerning the reliability of the Prius 2, I decided to research myself. According to the Office of Defects Investigation, which is part of the NHTSA, they keep a copy of all the complaints in a very easy to dissect database. I would imagine most of these people had already tried to get the dealer to respond before going to the NHTSA. Because several posters like to compare Toyota to VW for reliability I have included the Passat for the same years, as they sold about the same number of units in 2004. Here are my findings.
2004 model Prius Total complaints 149 2004 model Passat Total complaints 15 2005 model Prius Total complaints 42 2005 model Passat Total complaints 0
These are the facts whether they are popular or not the Prius is problematic in it's complexity. The worst part is Toyota is not getting the picture. There are 48 complaints of electrical problems, 29 were reported this year. That is long after the fixes went out in the middle of 2004.
"Does that outweigh the 30 Toyota models (Lexus & Scion not included) that get less than 25 MPG combined?"
Really? Which 30 TOyota models get less than 25MPG??? Toyota doesn't even sell 30 models in the U.S.!!!
Here is the breakdown for Chevy vs. Toyota. I used Chevy because they are the volume seller for GM and they a product lineup which most closely replicates Toyotas:
Chevy has ONE model that reaches 30MPG in combined driving. Toyota/Scion has 4 that reach over 30MPG.
VW has 10 models??? VW doesn't even sell 10 models in the US!
Try to put a realistic spin on your pickup & SUV numbers. Toyota sold 395 Land Cruiser's last month, GM Sold almost 8,000 Suburbans last month. Same with pickups, Toyota sold 1/6th the number of pickups(10K tundras vs. 60K Silverados).
For example, according to fueleconomy.gov there are 3 models of Corolla. Only the manual transmission model gets 36 MPG. The automatic gets 33 MPG and the Sports model gets 29 MPG on Premium gas. There are 8 models of Camry sold and none get even 30 MPG combined. You are counting Camry as one model yet there are several versions that get from low 20s to high 20s mileage. If you are saying because GM sells close to a million PU trucks and Toyota's biggest sellers are Camry & Corolla. That means that GM has the potential to use more fuel & pollute more with those vehicles. If that is your point, then I agree. That is what the American public wants. I think gas will have to double for PU truck sales to drop significantly. I think Toyota is banking on PU sales getting even better. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
Reliability is a non-issue for the Passat but may be an issue for the Jetta up to 04(hoping the 05 Jetta improves--VW TDI Jetta wagon sounds very tempting). Consistent rave reviews on the Passat from CR for many years is proof enough.
What on earth is all this nonsense about GM unreliability. How many members are still using stats from the 1970s/1980s? How many forum member have read the great results on GM models from JD Power/CR that exists today(not during yesteryears).
Yes, we need to get on the same page--preferably one that has something to do with hybrids in the news. It is clear you are counting "models" differently than GM did in the presentation you supplied the link to. For instance, they count the Aveo sedan once and Aveo 5-door once. They don't count all the permutations of body styles, engines, transmissions etc. as you seem to be doing. So before we continue in this confusion that has almost nothing to do with hybrids in the news, and argue about who's counting what, why not drop it? You've made your point, we've had our say about it, let's move on as our Host asked.
Personaly I'd like to see some news on when GM will offer more than just a mild hybrid on their cars. Take the Malibu V6 for example. With already good fuel economy on the ICE alone, what would happen if they add variable cylinder management ala the HAH and hybridize it? It might be a 50/40 kind of car for EPA numbers then.
OK - first of all the EPA tests are bogus. The highway figures are based on driving at 48 mph average, with 12 stops. Who drives at 48 mph on the highway? Another big clue here - difference between City and HW is 10+ mpg on many models - that just does not jive. Like 22mpg city and 34 hw. Basically GM have become masters at looking good in EPA tests. The reality is very different.
My Honda Civic Hybrid with manual tran' is a fuel sipping demon. Looking at the Prius with CVT - and seeing what actual owners get - around 42 to 45 mpg - compared to my HCH which gets 46 to 52 mpg in real driving around Wash DC (worlds #2 worst traffic) - you get the picture - actual driving on real roads makes a huge difference. Most Chevy's mid-size - any model - are really averaging around 25mpg on a good week - eg half what I'm getting. Plus they are not all ULEV for emissions - so they are putting out up to three times the CO2, et al.
If GM products really were so marvellous we would not be importing 20M barrels of oil a day.
I believe Toyota/Honda reliability vs. VW as a whole goes to the Japanese. There is NO way you're going to convince me that VW reliability is better. The facts speak for themself. On another note..... if someone out there is looking for an alternative to a hybrid that gets reasonable gas mileage, I've found it. I was with a friend today who was shopping for an Acura RL and I wondered off and sat in the Acura TSX. This car lists for 27k has impeccable build quality, tons of safety features, ABS, Skid Control, Curtain/Side airbags and gets 31 MPG on the highway. I was blown away by the price and I bet you can get it for LESS than sticker. So... if you want to avoid a hybrid because Gary says stay away... the TSX may fit your bill.
I certainly hope your last post is not addressed to me?
It appears it is ,but I really dont understand what you are saying? Do you have anything to say that has hybrid relevance??
I want to avoid a hybrid :confuse: Whoever said that?? Did I say VW reliability is better than Toyota/Honda??? Please refer to my last post! A TSX?? Huhhh? :confuse: I respect Gary's opinions! But you say I want to avoid hybrids because Gary says so :confuse:
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Dr. Wouk's hybrid, a modified 1972 Buick Skylark, was built primarily in response to the growing concern over air pollution that led to the passage of the Clean Air Act of 1970, a law mandating a rapid 95 percent reduction in auto emissions.
In private tests, the Skylark hybrid met the strictest emission standards, got 30 miles to a gallon of gas and had a top speed of 85 miles an hour.
The E.P.A. awarded $33,000 to Dr. Wouk and Dr. Rosen in 1974 and began its own tests of the prototype. However, the agency declined to produce more of the cars for nationwide tests, and Dr. Wouk's experiments ended. He always said the agency had never adequately explained its decision.
Dr. Victor Wouk, an electrical engineer and entrepreneur who built one of the first hybrid cars, operating on both gasoline and electricity, died at his home in Manhattan on May 19. He was 86.
Sorry, can't help myself . The temptation to say what we ALL know. GM is leading the "GAS HOG" line up more than the other line up. Hummers that can't get 9 mpg's, Escalades barely getting in the teens and then there's Ford with it's "SCHOOL BUS"...Excursion. We really needed another 2-parking place behemuth. So who's leading what these days? Anybody think GM's latest ad campaign is a bit of desperation? "Now You Too Can Get The EMPLOYEE Disc!! ....that'll save GM ....NOT! Car sales always depends on keeping up with technology and the public's always changing needs and wants. Years ago, when I sold cars, gas milage was low on the criteria of customer's needs. Not so today. Nuff said. Railroadjames(Prius- the closest thing to perfection)
Years ago, when I sold cars, gas mileage was low on the criteria of customer's needs. Not so today.
I would agree with you to an extent. I sold my Suburban yesterday. The fellow came to check it out in a Hummer2. He is buying the Suburban for his "Lady" so her and the children do not have to ride around in that little "death Trap Honda Accord". I asked him what kind of mileage he gets in the H2. He laughed and said "not good about 10 MPG". He looked the car over, drove it up the street to a friends shop. Came back said it is perfect. Handed me $1000 to hold it till we can go to the bank today. Shook my hand and roared off in that black Hummer2. Not everyone is worried about gas mileage. I got $18k and the Chevy dealer offered me $11k in trade on a new truck.
PS Read the last part of that long interview with Dr Wouk. Then you will know why the Japanese beat us to building hybrids.
WOW... I never knew the Honda Accord was a death trap! Can you post a link to that? Last I read a number of GM trucks in the 90's did not fair well for occupant safety. I pity that guy's wife! Talk about someone that is uninformed. LOL!!!
Not my words. I thought he was kind of over reacting to the situation. I was just glad he wanted the Suburban and has lots of cash. I think you will find that the Suburban is rated highly for safety by the Insurance Institute. I don't know what year Accord he is referring to. The Accord's are average on safety.
Speaking of hybrids. If Toyota were to make the SAB standard in the Prius it would get a very good safety rating. SAB's are standard in the EU Prius, and got very high marks. Also they put rear disk brakes on the EU version. I guess they are more discriminating buyers.
Great article...thanks for sharing!! I am looking forward to the new Camry hybrid. I hope it uses a 4 instead of a 6. If it does, the mileage will be much better than the Accord.
I looked at the government's website on crash testing. I looked up the Honda Accord (I am sure the hybrid version is the same), the Prius and the Suburban. The Honda and Prius have BETTER crash test results than a Suburban. The passenger in a Suburban has 3 stars, the passenger of the Accord has 5!! Another interesting test was once conducted comparing a Mini Cooper to a Ford F150 (pre 2005). I pity the guy in the Ford, because based on the test, he would have expired, and the guy in the Cooper would have survived with minimal injury. Bigger is not always better.
The passenger in a Suburban has 3 stars, the passenger of the Accord has 5!!
My understanding of the NHTSA star ratings assigned to any one vehicle is that they are meant to give you a comparative rating of that specific vehicle against all vehicles tested within the same category (for example, all mid-size sedans). The ratings do not reflect how well a vehicle from one category will perform against a vehicle from another category. A small sedan of relatively small mass simply cannot compare favorably during an impact with a large truck/suv with a relatively large mass. An exaggerated example is to compare how a passenger in the worst-rated 18-wheeler would do in comparison to a passenger in the best-rated SUV if the two collided... If you wish to see quantitative crash results listing the crush/intrusion into the passenger compartment and the acceleration forces on the crash dummies, you can explore the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) ratings.
The new Ford is built a little better, but it has been having reliability issues.
The good thing is that the hybrids seem to have good crash test results. I wasn't surprise about those results of the suburban vs the Honda Accord Hybrid. I'd rather be in that car in a crash than the suburban.
I did not mean to get this debate started. We hashed it for several years in the Why I hate SUV thread. I was just letting railroadjames know I had gotten rid of my Suburban.
If you want lots of links to which is safer, here are 62020 posts. Many of which dealt with this subject.
But after hybrid traffic more than tripled last year on highways leading into Washington, the privileges for hybrid drivers could be reaching the end of the road. A transportation panel recommended hybrids get the boot from Virginia's HOV lanes when the Legislature has the chance to renew the law next summer.
"Travel times for commuters are starting to break down. The lanes are simply getting too congested," said Joan Morris, spokeswoman for Virginia Department of Transportation
Not a debate. I was just pointing out the virtues of the safety of the hybrids recently in the news. I believe it was you who had to write that the Accord was a death trap. Wasn't that part of your post or am I reading it incorrectly??
Comments
http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2005/01/index.html
http://www.eere.energy.gov/regions/mid-atlantic/docs/gm_advanced_technology_rollout.ppt
And when you say GM ranks 1st in cars get 30MPG or better, isn't that kinda stretching facts?? I mean GM has like 10 versions of every car across different divisions. How many total MODELS do they have compared to Toyota? Of course on paper they will get that #1 ranking. Huh...let's see you got Saturn division, Chevy, Buick, Cadillac, Hummer, Saab, Pontiac, GMC. What does Toyota have? Toyota, Lexus, & Scion.
Toyota: six '05models get 35 mpg or higher
VW: four '05 models get 35 mpg or higher
GM: zero '05 models 35 mpg or higher
I didn't look at DCX. I'd be surprised though if they had more than 6 models at 35 mpg or higher.
I'll explain this again to you. GM has more models(alot more) so of course they are going to have MORE MODELS that get over 30MPG. Can you not understand that? it's soo simple!
"If Toyota is going to topple number ONE GM they are going to have a battle on their hands. The American people are fickled. If they think some foreign country is about to make them look 2nd class they will quit buying Toyota's like you would not believe."
GM has been on a downward spiral for years and even with all the current bad news about GM, GM sales are going down while Toyota sales are going up in the U.S.
Toyota Prius reliability is in question throughout the media. If you want to do damage control, it needs to start with people bringing Prius problems to this board. You have a person ready to invoke the Lemon Law on their new Prius because the dealer cannot fix it after 6 visits. None of the Prius owners gave any helpful advice.
Let's stop with the over(way) exaggeration!
Does that outweigh the 30 Toyota models (Lexus & Scion not included) that get less than 25 MPG combined? I did not see a single Toyota vehicle that offers alternative fuel such as CNG, LPG or E85 in the Toyota lineup. When matching the Toyota Tundra 4WD to the Chevy Silverado 4WD the Chevy has a slightly larger V8 that gets better mileage and dumps almost 1 ton less GHG per year. In the 2WD version GM offers a hybrid that gets 11% better gas mileage than the Tundra 2WD and dumps 1.3 tons less GHG per year. The Chevy Suburban far outshines the Land Cruiser for mileage and GHG. I think if you did an honest assessment across the lines that GM does pretty good in a fuel economy comparison to Toyota.
If any of you have had bad experiences with GM reliability I can understand your dislike of the brand. I have had nothing but great experience with the last 4 Chevy vehicles I have owned. As a matter of fact I am thinking of taking advantage of the latest GM promo and buying a 3/4 ton Duramax PU truck. The prices have never been better. I was going to buy used. Everyone thinks their used truck is worth more than a new one.
PS
VW has 10 models that get over 35 MPG combined.
I could only find 4 Toyota models with a combined 35 MPG. None of the Camry's even get 35 MPG on the highway. So the Malibu beats the Camry on all models.
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Here are my findings.
2004 model Prius Total complaints 149
2004 model Passat Total complaints 15
2005 model Prius Total complaints 42
2005 model Passat Total complaints 0
These are the facts whether they are popular or not the Prius is problematic in it's complexity. The worst part is Toyota is not getting the picture. There are 48 complaints of electrical problems, 29 were reported this year. That is long after the fixes went out in the middle of 2004.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/complain/ComplaintSearch.cfm
Really? Which 30 TOyota models get less than 25MPG??? Toyota doesn't even sell 30 models in the U.S.!!!
Here is the breakdown for Chevy vs. Toyota. I used Chevy because they are the volume seller for GM and they a product lineup which most closely replicates Toyotas:
Chevy(EPA averages of city/highway numbers)
Aveo: 30MPG
Cobalt: 28MPG
Corvette: 22MPG
IMPALA: 25MPG
Malibu: 26.5MPG
Montel Carlo: 26.5MPG
SSR: 16.5MPG
Colorado: ~21.5MPG
Equinox: 22MPG
Tahoe: ~17MPG
Trailblazer: ~17.5MPG
Uplander: 21MPG
Avalanche: 16MPG
Suburban: ~17MPG
Silverado: ~17.5MPG
Toyota/Scion:
Camry 4-cyl: 29MPG
Camry V6: 28MPG
Avalon: 26.5MPG
Corolla: ~35MPG
Prius: 55.5MPG
Sienna: 22MPG
RAV4: 24.5MPG
Highlander 4-cyl.: 23.5MPG
Highlander 6: 21.5MPG
4Runner: 19MPG
Tacoma: 19MPG
Tundra: 16.5MPG
Sequioa: 16.5MPG
Land Cruiser: 15MPG
Xa: 34.5MPG
Xb: 33MPG
tc: 26MPG
Chevy has ONE model that reaches 30MPG in combined driving. Toyota/Scion has 4 that reach over 30MPG.
VW has 10 models??? VW doesn't even sell 10 models in the US!
Try to put a realistic spin on your pickup & SUV numbers. Toyota sold 395 Land Cruiser's last month, GM Sold almost 8,000 Suburbans last month. Same with pickups, Toyota sold 1/6th the number of pickups(10K tundras vs. 60K Silverados).
For example, according to fueleconomy.gov there are 3 models of Corolla. Only the manual transmission model gets 36 MPG. The automatic gets 33 MPG and the Sports model gets 29 MPG on Premium gas. There are 8 models of Camry sold and none get even 30 MPG combined. You are counting Camry as one model yet there are several versions that get from low 20s to high 20s mileage. If you are saying because GM sells close to a million PU trucks and Toyota's biggest sellers are Camry & Corolla. That means that GM has the potential to use more fuel & pollute more with those vehicles. If that is your point, then I agree. That is what the American public wants. I think gas will have to double for PU truck sales to drop significantly. I think Toyota is banking on PU sales getting even better.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
What on earth is all this nonsense about GM unreliability. How many members are still using stats from the 1970s/1980s? How many forum member have read the great results on GM models from JD Power/CR that exists today(not during yesteryears).
Personaly I'd like to see some news on when GM will offer more than just a mild hybrid on their cars. Take the Malibu V6 for example. With already good fuel economy on the ICE alone, what would happen if they add variable cylinder management ala the HAH and hybridize it? It might be a 50/40 kind of car for EPA numbers then.
My Honda Civic Hybrid with manual tran' is a fuel sipping demon. Looking at the Prius with CVT - and seeing what actual owners get - around 42 to 45 mpg - compared to my HCH which gets 46 to 52 mpg in real driving around Wash DC (worlds #2 worst traffic) - you get the picture - actual driving on real roads makes a huge difference. Most Chevy's mid-size - any model - are really averaging around 25mpg on a good week - eg half what I'm getting. Plus they are not all ULEV for emissions - so they are putting out up to three times the CO2, et al.
If GM products really were so marvellous we would not be importing 20M barrels of oil a day.
Go figure!
I certainly hope your last post is not addressed to me?
It appears it is ,but I really dont understand what you are saying? Do you have anything to say that has hybrid relevance??
I want to avoid a hybrid :confuse: Whoever said that??
Did I say VW reliability is better than Toyota/Honda??? Please refer to my last post!
A TSX?? Huhhh? :confuse:
I respect Gary's opinions! But you say I want to avoid hybrids because Gary says so :confuse:
Huhhhh?? :confuse:
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In private tests, the Skylark hybrid met the strictest emission standards, got 30 miles to a gallon of gas and had a top speed of 85 miles an hour.
The E.P.A. awarded $33,000 to Dr. Wouk and Dr. Rosen in 1974 and began its own tests of the prototype. However, the agency declined to produce more of the cars for nationwide tests, and Dr. Wouk's experiments ended. He always said the agency had never adequately explained its decision.
Dr. Victor Wouk, an electrical engineer and entrepreneur who built one of the first hybrid cars, operating on both gasoline and electricity, died at his home in Manhattan on May 19. He was 86.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/12/national/12wouk.html
Biography of Dr. Wouk;
http://oralhistories.library.caltech.edu/92/01/OH_Wouk_V.pdf
Anybody think GM's latest ad campaign is a bit of desperation? "Now You Too Can Get The EMPLOYEE Disc!! ....that'll save GM ....NOT!
Car sales always depends on keeping up with technology and the public's always changing needs and wants. Years ago, when I sold cars, gas milage was low on the criteria of customer's needs. Not so today. Nuff said.
Railroadjames(Prius- the closest thing to perfection)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-06-12-global-warming-cover_x.htm
I would agree with you to an extent. I sold my Suburban yesterday. The fellow came to check it out in a Hummer2. He is buying the Suburban for his "Lady" so her and the children do not have to ride around in that little "death Trap Honda Accord". I asked him what kind of mileage he gets in the H2. He laughed and said "not good about 10 MPG". He looked the car over, drove it up the street to a friends shop. Came back said it is perfect. Handed me $1000 to hold it till we can go to the bank today. Shook my hand and roared off in that black Hummer2. Not everyone is worried about gas mileage. I got $18k and the Chevy dealer offered me $11k in trade on a new truck.
PS
Read the last part of that long interview with Dr Wouk. Then you will know why the Japanese beat us to building hybrids.
Speaking of hybrids. If Toyota were to make the SAB standard in the Prius it would get a very good safety rating. SAB's are standard in the EU Prius, and got very high marks. Also they put rear disk brakes on the EU version. I guess they are more discriminating buyers.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_25/b3938028.htm
http://www.sustain-online.org/plugins/DocSearch/details.asp?MenuId=1&ClickMenu=&doOpen=1&t- ype=DocDet&ObjectId=MTUxNTk
http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=40349&version=1&template- _id=48&parent_id=28
http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=Business_News&subsection=market+- news&month=June2005&file=Business_News2005061305923.xml
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/002878.html
My understanding of the NHTSA star ratings assigned to any one vehicle is that they are meant to give you a comparative rating of that specific vehicle against all vehicles tested within the same category (for example, all mid-size sedans). The ratings do not reflect how well a vehicle from one category will perform against a vehicle from another category. A small sedan of relatively small mass simply cannot compare favorably during an impact with a large truck/suv with a relatively large mass. An exaggerated example is to compare how a passenger in the worst-rated 18-wheeler would do in comparison to a passenger in the best-rated SUV if the two collided... If you wish to see quantitative crash results listing the crush/intrusion into the passenger compartment and the acceleration forces on the crash dummies, you can explore the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) ratings.
http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINICooperVsFordF150
The new Ford is built a little better, but it has been having reliability issues.
The good thing is that the hybrids seem to have good crash test results. I wasn't surprise about those results of the suburban vs the Honda Accord Hybrid. I'd rather be in that car in a crash than the suburban.
If you want lots of links to which is safer, here are 62020 posts. Many of which dealt with this subject.
starrow68, "I don't like SUVs, why do you?" #62001, 24 Nov 2004 5:00 pm
"Travel times for commuters are starting to break down. The lanes are simply getting too congested," said Joan Morris, spokeswoman for Virginia Department of Transportation
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159430,00.html