Hybrids in the News

maxhonda99

"My biggest gripe with the system is the way they can build some vehicles, PUs & SUVs without adhering to the CAFE standard."

Well, current CAFE rules are only for passenger cars. And when CAFE rules were made decades ago, pickups and SUVs were basically only used for true commercial use and SUVs sales were low so the lawmakers didn't include Pickups and SUVs as passenger cars. Obviously the carmakers probably had a hand in convincing lawmakers on this also.

Now, when CAFE standards should be redone to include SUVs and pickups, automakers will lobby the government to hell, and lawmakers easily give in.

falconone had a good point also. make gas $5.00/gallon.

I say gas taxes would be increased gradually every year over the next 5 years or so to the point where gas would be at least $3.50/gallon in today's dollars 5 years from now. That'll get people out of SUVs. And that also forces automakers to invest in new technologies that will improve gas mileage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/04/business/worldbusiness/04energy.html?pagewanted=1

you may also want to check out the link above. It kinda puts a dent in your theory that Japan is *3rd world*(Well, we already knew they weren't anyway!!).

Kirstie_H

Posts about whether the capitalist system is or is not preferred have been removed.

molokai

I wonder how many of those complaints have to do with this....

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/11825808.htm)

Towards the end of the article is where the content is. The whole article is a good read.

stevedebi

"I say gas taxes would be increased gradually every year over the next 5 years or so to the point where gas would be at least $3.50/gallon in today's dollars 5 years from now. That'll get people out of SUVs. And that also forces automakers to invest in new technologies that will improve gas mileage."

I think as fuel gets in shorter supply, the fuel prices increases will automatically happen, and then the automakers will get serious... though if the consumers still prefer large, heavy vehicles, they will simply short themselves elsewere in their budgets and continue to drive whatever they want.

dewey

Be prepared to see Mercedes Benz, GM and Chrysler hybrids by 2007/2008!

Good news for competition!!

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2005/06/07/afx2078848.html

larsb

Canada measures the "Hybrid Premium" a little differently.....

"The cost analysis judged four hybrid models against their conventional
gas-powered equivalents, namely the Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Ford Escape and
Toyota Prius / Matrix. In addition to the initial purchase price, a number of
variables were considered: fuel savings, the provincial Alternative Fuel
Vehicle tax concession, and eligibility for low-interest rate financing. With
all these factors in play over five years, two of the vehicles would end up
costing approximately $3,200 more than their conventional cousins, one would
cost $2,400 more and one - the Honda Accord Hybrid - would cost $3,000 less
than the comparable V6 model."

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/June2005/07/c8852.html

PF_Flyer

Excellent news for competition. That's what's going to make hybrid technology advance. Competition in the free market.

On the flip side, I hope that car companies aren't making plans for hybrids solely because it's the next "thing" that's coming along.

PF Flyer
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dewey

Interesting!

But all computations are as good as their assumptions.

1)The assumption of gas in the 95 cent range in Canada is wrong. At most I saw gas prices at the high 80 cent level regular gas. Mostly gas prices are around the 70-80 cent range. Quite a significant difference!

2) BC Tax policy seems favorable for hybrid buyers. BUT only if you are in BC. In the Province of Ontario where I am---expect only $1K Tax benefit from the Ontario Government.

3) What MPG figures did they use for the computation. Real world computations or EPA computations(Reality tends to conflict with EPA)???

dewey

Toyota-Nissan-Ford,Hyundai, VW-Porsche, GM-MB-Chrysler, Honda and BMW are just among the few whom are serious about hybrids.

Competition is contagious! And I hope Toyota/Honda will feel some pressure to innovate and reduce the costs of hybrid technology. This would benefit everyone!!!

molokai

Very true, but it appears all the new guys want to license Toyota's technology. I'd like to see something more innovative. I am sure there'll be some interesting technology from Mercedes. I'm not sure BMW even wants to get involved, which is a shame.

dewey

That is new news to me.

DC-GM, Honda, VW-Porsche, Hyundai and BMW (read several months ago that BMW is thinking of a hybrid X5) are not at all dependent of Toyota's tech!

None of the above will be using Toyota's HSD technology(correct me if I am wrong)

molokai

I was referring to the Altima and also the previously mentioned Porsche Cayenne. I am not sure if there are others that will utilize the Toyota HSD.

tomslyck

I'm happy about the competition, but I wouldn't have plunked down my hard-earned cash for someone's first-year hybrid experiment. The fact that Toyota has been doing this for several years made all the difference to me. I've never owned a Toyota before, but I'll always go with experience over name-plate.

mirth

http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage2802.html

The Prius was named European Car of the Year 2005, having already scooped the accolade of North American Car of the Year 2004. Since it was launched in 1999, some 340,000 have been sold worldwide.

This represents a small fraction of Toyota's total sales of 7.5 million vehicles in 2004; of these far-from-green SUVs, such as its Land Cruiser, accounted for 12 per cent.

It's rare that you find a pro-hybrid article that actually recognizes that Toyota makes a ton of money off of trucks...

gagrice

That is a good article. If Toyota sold 900,000 Land Cruisers around the world. I wonder who is buying them? They only sold 6778 in the US last year. I am sure Africa gets a lot of them. Maybe military contracts. They do plan to sell us 250,000 Tundra PUs this year.

maxhonda99

LAnd Cruiser's are sold all around the world. They have a legendary reputation and in countries outside of the US the Land Cruiser is available in many different variants & at different price points. I believe elsewhere you can get the Land Cruiser with a diesel as well as a live front axle setup vs. independant front in the US. I believe it's a big seller in African countries as well as South America. Here the Land Cruiser is now a slow seller because it's price has moved up considerable in the last couple of decades.

larsb

Worldwide, The Land Crusher has a fantastic reputation for reliability and especially it's legendary offroad prowess, the offroad prowess rivaled only by the Land Rover line of trucks, the reliability in the boondocks rivaled by no truck.

larsb

" The International Herald Tribune, 7 June 2005 - For the past 18 months, Gregg Kelly has driven a hydrogen-powered car that he leases from the American subsidiary of Toyota Motor. Kelly is part of an experiment, allowing the Japanese automaker to gather intelligence on what it is like to drive the car in real world conditions.

The car's engine is propelled by a chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen, and its only emission is oxygen dihydride. One evening, Kelly pulled into his driveway and was greeted by his dog, a black Labrador retriever.

"My dog ran immediately to the back of the car and started drinking out of the tail pipe," recalls Kelly, the chief executive officer of Orthodyne Electronics, a company in Irvine, California. He called Toyota to make sure his dog would suffer no ill effects. "They said 'we don't recommend it, but nothing is going to happen to your dog. It's just pure water coming out of there."' "

http://www.sustain-online.org/plugins/DocSearch/details.asp?MenuId=1&ClickMenu=&doOpen=1&t- - ype=DocDet&ObjectId=MTUxNzk

gagrice

Is that the same company from the Bay Area, that is offering such a conversion. It seems like a good step toward practicality. The $12k conversion kind of scared me off. Unless I found an old Prius for a couple grand.

Kirstie_H

Do NOT post entire or large portions of articles from other sites into the Forums. This is a violation of the owner's copyright. A sentence or two, plus a link, is sufficient. Sorry, but posts have been removed.

mirth

Worldwide, The Land Crusher has a fantastic reputation for reliability and especially it's legendary offroad prowess, the offroad prowess rivaled only by the Land Rover line of trucks, the reliability in the boondocks rivaled by no truck.

True, but what kind of gas mileage does it get. How about emissions? :P

gagrice

True, but what kind of gas mileage does it get. How about emissions?

That was my point. Toyota can sell 900,000 of the world's biggest polluters elsewhere. That's OK because they make a niche market with hybrids and that is supposed to make us think they are environmentalists. I don't believe they are for a minute. The only reason they did it in the first place is Japan mandated it for over there. The US jumping on the Prius was kind of a surprise to them. They thought we would want more bang for our buck. We fooled them..

molokai

I seriously doubt that they would invest in the hybrid technology if they expected no one would buy it. They just didn't expect such overwhelming demand. Now with other models coming online, it's only going to get better. I just read that there will be a hybrid LS in the July issue of C & D. Looks sweet!!!!!!! Go hybrid!!!

larsb

New Civic design wins internal Honda designer competition in the UK:

Civic's Walk On The Wild Side

Exclusive spy shots in this week's mag reveal the all-new Honda Civic's radical rear end for the first time. ...the hatchback has remained largely unchanged from the concept first displayed at the Geneva Motor Show in March. The mag's ... caught the newcomer on test, but couldn't see the front, so we don't know if the car's other unusual feature - its bizarre clear plastic grille - will make it to the showroom. The revolutionary look is a stark departure from the current Civic's conservative shape, and was the winning design in an internal competition, set up between the manufacturer's European and Japanese styling teams. Bosses loved the result from the Far East division.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/5..._wild_side.html

molokai

Link doesn't work. I'd love to see it!!

larsb

Here is the full link - not sure why the other posted link was messed up...

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/57384/civics_walk_on_the_wild_side.html

maxhonda99

Probably still poor gas mileage. But remember other countries Land Cruiser's are lighter because they don't have all the junk in them that US bound Land Cruiser's have. Also, other countries don't have the tight emissions regulations we have, and the cost they have to sell them at (low prices) doesn't exactly leave room for them to have the cleanest burning vehicle on earth.

maxhonda99

How many Ford F-150s does Ford sell? How about how many polluting pickup trucks and various SUVs based on those pickup trucks does GM sell? In the US alone, FOrd sells about a million and GM another Million.

What have they done for the environment?

At least Toyota & Honda has done alot more!

maxhonda99

I doubt they want to or even would buy General Motors or Ford. Why? If Toyota did buy either and or company, Toyota would inherit all of GMs and/or Ford's problems, mainly the pension problem's and UAW deals! Why would anyone want either of those 2 problems?

gagrice

Ford & Chevy PU trucks are way way cleaner burning than the Land Cruiser. Better mileage also. The amount Toyota sells in the US is insignificant. It is the air around the world I am talking about. None of the atomakers have done any more than they had to to comply. In the case of Toyota it was a Japanese mandate that created the Prius. Not their long term environmental goals.

gagrice

We agree on that one. I think the only reason Kerkorian is buying such a big share is to get enough control to sell off the parts with low profit. GMAC is still a huge money maker. Their corporate assets are far more than the stock value. They still pay a dividend last I checked.

falconone

You still haven't answered the question as to why GM has not done anything for the environment. Their trucks are HUGE guzzlers! My friend has an Envoy that barely gets 14 in the city! Landcruisers are not a big seller in this country. I bet Toyota and Honda sell a lot more fuel efficient vehicles than GM does in this country.

gagrice

Really? How do you come to this conclusion? Facts, please. The 4.7L V8 in the Land Cruiser is plenty clean burning. Better mileage?

You can look them up right here. The TLC gets a big 0 in CA with 14 MPG combined. The Chev 5.3L V8 gets 16 MPG combined and a 3 for emissions. the Ford 5.4L is better yet with a LEV II rated 6 in CA combined 16 MPG. Toyota, Lexus, Mercedes & Land Rover share the bottom 5 slots in the worst of the worst.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

falconone

What matters are the qty each sells as maxhonda99 stated. We all know how green GM and Ford are...right? Yeah.. I am curious too...weren't you finished with this board or have your diesel friends banished you too? Hybrid envy sure is contagious!!!

gagrice

weren't you finished with this board

I like to check in on occasion to see if you guys have gone off the deep end again with this "Hybrids will save the World" rhetoric. Here is an interesting piece for those on the fence about buying a hybrid.

Honda Motor Co., with sales of just over 100,000 hybrid vehicles worldwide since 1999, might be just a little smarter than Toyota when it comes to marketing gasoline-electric hybrids. Honda's new Accord hybrid is priced so high that most people won't be able to afford it. So Honda avoids the Prius problem of too many customers and too few cars.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/hybrids_math.html

gagrice

I bet Toyota and Honda sell a lot more fuel efficient vehicles than GM does in this country.

Not by design. They are doing their best to make a dent in the truck market. They know that they can only make money on the fat cat hybrids. That limited market that makes them look green. As far as midsize they have dominated that market for years. You keep asking what GM has done for the environment. NOTHING same as Toyota. I would give Honda a nod for staying closer to the edge of good fuel efficiency. Not Toyota. I would imagine their CAFE average has gone down in the last couple years with the heavier trucks and cars they are pushing.

I work with a guy that bought an Envoy and that is what he gets 14 MPG. His Tahoe always got 17 MPG. His wife wanted the miniature SUV, because the Tahoe was too big.

I did see some hybrid owners lurking in the diesel forum. I guess they figure they made a mistake. Oh well, I warned them.

maxhonda99

Oh...Big improvement on the part of the pickups over the Land Cruiser! 16MPG combined vs. 14! wow, really big difference! I see Ford & GM are real big environmentalists! Like a few years ago when Bill Ford said he would improve gas mileage by 25% by was it 2004 or 2005? Sure happened, didn't it!

BTW, how many F150's does Ford sell in the US vs. Toyota selling Land Cruisers??? What is it? Over 1Million F150's vs. 10K Land Cruisers!

gagrice

how many F150's does Ford sell in the US

They sell as many as they can. Toyota is expanding to DOUBLE their Tundra output. So what is your point? If you were around a few years back when you were lucky to get 8 MPG out of a Ford truck you would think this is great. If people want big trucks someone will build them It may as well be GM, Ford & Chrysler as Toyota and Nissan. Gas mileage is subject to the law of physics. You only get so much out of a gallon of gas. The Tundra is rated 16 MPG combined in the smaller V8. It is not the automakers fault that every one and their cousin wants a crew cab PU truck. They are everywhere. They are what slowed down the sales of big SUVs as much as the gas prices did. GM sold more big PU trucks this year than last. With the employee discounts all this month you will see record sales numbers for GM. They have new models coming out and want to clear the lots.

PF_Flyer

Please stop commenting about each other and stick to the topics. Every time I come back to the board and see a large number of new posts in this topic, I know it's the same folks saying the same things AT each other again. We know you disagree with each other. We also know that you're not going to make the other guy come around to your way of thinking any time soon. So let's drop it and move on with discussing hybrids in the news, shall we??

falconone

Already have one on order! Can't wait!!!

http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=859

Gary... send us a link to your open toed American sandals.... LOL

molokai

http://tinyurl.com/cq74j

molokai

http://tinyurl.com/aruq7

The hybrids are 'a comin'................. YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

gagrice

Good article. A car that makes some sense. A bit spendy, but a good mileage return for all the short trips people make on a day to day basis.

molokai

Are you aware of a place called Celebration, FL? Most of the people there get around in electric type vehicles and Segways. I visited there and actually rented a Segway. It was tons of fun an ZERO emissions. I guess it would be impractical in San Diego, but maybe in some of the suburbs it would be practical. Let's face it, most of us always have a small 2 or 3 mile trip that makes so little sense to use a car for.

mirth

In the US alone, FOrd sells about a million and GM another Million.

What have they done for the environment?

At least Toyota & Honda has done alot more!

Actually, I believe if you look at the average MPG for all vehicles each company sold worldwide, GM beats Toyota.

mirth

From the Washington Times, why not to buy a hybrid:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/autoweekend/20050609-011505-9312r.htm

Also, Business Week has an interview with the chief engineer in charge of the hybrid, but I don't have a link.

molokai

You can tell that the author knew nothing about what he was writing about. How can you compare a Corolla and a Prius? The content in the Prius is MUCH more than in the Corolla. I agree that economically it definitely does not make sense to buy the HAH or the RH. IMHO, a fully loaded Prius is in a class by its own. There is no other car being sold that has that content for that price.

gagrice

As a matter of fact my tax man moved to "The Villages" in Florida. They use the golf cart for 99% of their driving. His RX330 sits in the garage most of the time. 20 some golf courses and lots of restaurants and shopping all in range of the golf cart. I thought of buying a Gem. They are not supposed to be driven on any streets posted over 35 MPH. The first street out of my subdivision is 45 MPH. I'm not sure they would ticket you if you stayed close to the curb.

sinepman

As you all may know, the Prius has been in the news because of potential stalling. Most people are saying it is because of the software updates and that seems to be the consensus. At least there have been no accidents. Unfortunately... look at this article!!

http://tinyurl.com/76hy5

maxhonda99

"Actually, I believe if you look at the average MPG for all vehicles each company sold worldwide, GM beats Toyota. "

Please provide facts. *I believe* doesn't mean a whole lot.