But a 23-page emergency response guide published by Toyota lists two procedures for disarming the vehicle, including a seven-step process that begins with blocking the wheels and includes taking the key 16 feet away from the car. Rescuers must check for a ready light on the dashboard, which indicates the car is on, before pushing the power button to turn it off. If the light is not on and the button is pushed, rescuers might in fact be switching the Prius on.
A quicker method requires opening the rear hatch, removing the luggage compartment floor and a shallow plastic trunk pan to reach and disconnect the car's 12-volt battery, which isolates the power systems. Even then, the manual warns, the high-voltage system holds a charge for five minutes. If air bags have already deployed, though, circuit breakers should have automatically disconnected high-voltage wiring, according to the Toyota manual.
Yeah, if I'm dying in my car, I want the rescuers to be wading through a 23 page manual (assuming they even have it), and then waiting an additional 5 mins for the charge to drain.
It is old news. It becomes more relevant with the amount of hybrids on the road. I can see a huge lawsuit if an emergency worker were to be electrocuted while attempting to rescue someone. The manual from Toyota is a joke. What percentage of the thousands of fire & rescue workers will read and remember those instructions? Add to that the instructions for the RH, HH, Honda hybrids & Ford Escape. I would think they would come up with a standardized breaker system to disable the big battery in an accident. Maybe a BIG knife switch on top the car. :shades:
I'd be more concerned with gas than I would with electricity. There are thick orange wires that carry high voltage. If someone cuts through that line then they're in big trouble! I did read that if the Prius is in an accident there is a cutoff for the electrical power. I am not sure if other hybrids have a similar system. I guess we will have to wait for an unfortunate incident to happen and then it will definitely be in the news. I think it's important for all rescue workers to take the course they're offering with respect to hybrids. I would imagine that the car would be have to be mangled pretty badly before the jaws of life are brought in. That brings me to the following point. Have a look at this!!
First of all, where do the Jaws of life USUALLY get applied?
The doors and the door areas.
There are no "high voltage wires" running in those areas.
What are the odds of any rescue workers cutting through the BOTTOM of the car to get someone out?
Rescue workers ARE going to need to be trained, and not only for the Prius, but for ALL existing and upcoming hybrids. Just another part of their training they will be REQUIRED to learn. No big whoop.
It's a bunch of chatter about nothing - like Seinfeld.....
Too bad the North American version is not as safe as the EU version. No rear disk brakes, side airbags $600 option. All standard in the Prius sold in Europe. We are second class in the Toyota play book.
Gary, we are not "second class in the Toyota play book" my gosh !!!
All cars by ALL manufacturers are differently equipped in various countries, a fact you know very well.
Car makers are required in different areas and countries and continents to make certain equipment STANDARD and they then choose what to make optional, based on ECONOMICS, which is what ALL car makers are in business to do - make money.
Last I checked, NO car company is in the charity business.
It is perception. If the EMT that comes to a hybrid accident, declares I have no training with hybrid rescue, what can you say. You know how litigious we are in this country. Remember a doctor cannot touch you at the scene of an accident without fear of being sued in many states.
Many countries require extra safety features that are not installed on US models, sometimes not even available as options. Daytime running lights are my favorite - required in Canada on Hondas, not available in the US, even as options.
So I suspect those European Spec Prius are only getting the safety features required by the EU.
The side airbags not being in the Prius standard is why they get a lower rating in this country. Toyota is a money grubbing company, just face the truth. They are not some big GREEN saviour.
My car has side airbags along with curtain airbags. It is as safe as the Euro version. The rear brakes in the Prius really have an easy life, they don't do much! I saw braking distances in Euro magazines and American magazines and they're virtually the same. I'm very impressed with this car's rigidity and performance. Heck.. if you brake moderately you rarely engage the front brakes as the regen slows you down. Pretty clever!
Many cars don't arrive on the US shores because they can't be certified here because of our stringent safety laws. I am quite certain the safey cage of the Prius is the same for the world market.
new power plants? That is simply ridiculous. I can generate more power than my house uses by putting panels on my roof. Wayyy more. If evena small percentage of rooftops went solar, it would be years before we needed additional power plants.
My panels will pay themselves back in less than 10 years (with conservative assumptions). Yes, this does include rebtes I received at construction, but power plant builders also get major tax incentives, etc., so it's not like this is apples and oranges.
oh, and my solar panels create ZERO emissions, which you can't really say about a power plant, can you?
I suppose that can be said of many car companies. We all remember how Ford did a cost analysis on the Explorer, Crown Vic, Pinto. It was cheaper to pay the lawsuits. Rent the movie Class Action if you haven't seen it. I think the biggest guilty party is GM which has been blessing us with cheap interiors and shoddy workmanship for the past 20 years or so.
"Many cars don't arrive on the US shores because they can't be certified here because of our stringent safety laws. I am quite certain the safey cage of the Prius is the same for the world market."
Having lived in Europe, I was aware of the non-us Spec cars. However, many European countries do now mandate certain features. One thing is sure: if the EU didn't require the features (or the public demand them), Toyota would not put those "desirable" features (like rear disk brakes) on the EU Prius.
The basic frame & etc. would not vary from country to country...
It makes you wonder if they are paid to be here, and bad mouth hybrids.
Who really cares enough to pay? There is nothing to gain. Just people with legitimate concerns about the way we are headed in the country with our automobiles. I was as gungho about hybrids 5 years ago as anyone. Now I am not so sure they are a good direction. All anyone has come up with is a small saving in gas and an even smaller gain in lowering emissions. At a good size premium So how do you like your hybrid by now? I love mine.
First of all, where do the Jaws of life USUALLY get applied?
The doors and the door areas.
There are no "high voltage wires" running in those areas.
What are the odds of any rescue workers cutting through the BOTTOM of the car to get someone out?
Rescue workers ARE going to need to be trained, and not only for the Prius, but for ALL existing and upcoming hybrids. Just another part of their training they will be REQUIRED to learn. No big whoop.
I agree that most of the time, hybrids will be safe for rescuers to get into. However, this "training" you're talking about - who is going to pay for that? Who is going to make sure that they are up on the latest hybrids? Also, right or wrong, rescuers are going to be far more wary about breaking into a hybrid vehicle, and will take longer to do it. Sad, but true.
Comments directed AT other users, no matter how clever you think they are, are NOT acceptable in these forums.
Amazing as it may seem, there are going to be folks who disagree with your position on some issues. That is NOT a reason to attack them personally or try to mock them in any manner.
You're going to change their mind just about the time they change yours. Agree to disagree and move on.
In your post #2856, you neglected to quote a couple of earlier paragraphs from the same NY Times article. They read:
"Mona Richard, a Toyota spokeswoman, said disarming the latest generation of the Prius, which uses an electronic key and a dashboard pushbutton to start the engine, is simple: just open the car door and press the button marked "power" on the dashboard.
"We have thousands of hybrid vehicles out there, and there's never been one incident," Ms. Richard said."
Aisin transmission relationship is a kink in the hybrid supply chain that needs to be ironed out. The auto maker has seen significant demand for its Escape Hybrid vehicle in 2005, but is limited to building only 24,000 copies annually. Aisin's inability to supply more transmissions from a plant in Japan is a major reason for the constraint.
In your post #2856, you neglected to quote a couple of earlier paragraphs from the same NY Times article. They read:
"Mona Richard, a Toyota spokeswoman, said disarming the latest generation of the Prius, which uses an electronic key and a dashboard pushbutton to start the engine, is simple: just open the car door and press the button marked "power" on the dashboard.
"We have thousands of hybrid vehicles out there, and there's never been one incident," Ms. Richard said."
Actually, I almost included Ms. Richard's statement because of it's stupidity. In a situation requiring the Jaws of Life, it's not "easy" to open the car door and press the "power" button. That's even assuming that the power button is even functional at that point depending on the damage to the vehicle.
And the reason there's "never been an incident" is because there are only a few hundred thousand vehicles out there. That's peanuts volume compared to the best-selling cars and SUV's. Try and find a picture of a smashed-up F-150 on the internet - there's probably hundreds. Now try and find a picture of a smashed up MINI Cooper or some such. Good luck.
"It is a supply issue, and it's supply of several technologies," Padilla said at the Reuters Summit in Detroit. "The Japanese have shown a little bit of a predatory approach."
"You have to realize that hybrids on the market now go for a $3,000 to $3,500 premium, and that only covers a fraction of the costs," he said.
Asked if Ford was making any money on hybrid sales, he said: "I don't know if anyone is making money on them, and if they do, I think that would be a very interesting economic study."
Daimler's two-pronged strategy of developing full hybrids with GM and BMW while developing mild hybrids in house or with other partners shows it is not being dragged reluctantly into the hybrid market, Weber stressed.
Nevertheless, hybrids have limited market potential, especially given the similar efficiency that a modern diesel engine affords, he said.
"In the United States we think the share of hybrids in specific areas will be there, but we also believe that diesels will pass the 10 percent threshold before hybrids do," he said.
This topic is about hybrids in the news, not crash test methods and comparisons between the Mini and F-150. I've taken down the off topic stuff so we can get back on track.
“Nevertheless, hybrids have limited market potential, especially given the similar efficiency that a modern diesel engine affords But especially in the luxury car segment interest was present for diesel hybrids as long as they offer fuel efficiency, meet emissions standards, perform well, are fun to drive and can be marketed at a reasonable price, he said.”
Ok DCC, where is that modern diesel here in America that has the performance and FE of the gasoline electric hybrid for a reasonable price? I see only (1) E320D on your US web site at a mind boggling $52,000 w/ an EPA rating of 27/37 and it is not available in the 5 clean states. The rest of the country will be using the same emissions regulation starting next year! Maybe DCC hasn’t yet heard of the $32,000 Honda Accord Hybrid (29/37) with the same or similar 0 - 60 in 6.5 second results except that it’s a PZEV for the 06 MY including the best NAVI in the business. Wait until the rest of the world sees what MB charges for the following which is std. in the Accord Hybrid w/ NAVI by comparison
NAVI - $1450 Sirius Sat Radio - $500 6-disc CD Changer - $430 Heated Front Seats - $690
Don't forget tonight's member-to-member chat - it's open mic night, so come and discuss whatever's on your mind.
6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Drop by for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!
kirstie_h
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Bill Ford laid out Ford's business plan for the rest of the decade, which included ramping up on hybrids. I found this planned action interesting as well:
"Initiating a pilot program that will offset the greenhouse gasses emitted in the manufacture of hybrid vehicles. The carbon offset program will pay for projects around the world that reduce carbon dioxide emissions."
Being an EE, I understand the concept, but the amount of electricity generated is going to be dependent on the size of the coils and magnetic piston. It's no that you can't generate electricity that way, but I'd get back to whether it will make sense given the cost to do it and the return in the form of increased mileage/efficiency. The vehicle will have to carry this system around as well, requiring energy. It may be that to get enough useful energy out of it, the system would not be practical. Not enough technical specific on that page to tell. But a pretty neat idea. Every little bit helps, and a step towards recaputring some of the wasted energy of internal combustion is good.Will be interesting to see how this develops.
> Sounds like the HAH and Camry may have some competition...
Accord-Hybrid is only an ASSIST hybrid, so it simply cannot compete the same way.
Fusion will be a FULL hybrid, but unless the battery-pack technology and stealth speed currently offered by Ford is upgraded, Camry will have a clear advantage.
In what vague "same way" are you speaking? The Honda obviously will blow the doors off the new 4 cylinder Camry and 4 cylinder Altima. It also obviously will not get the same fuel economy as the 4 cylinder choices either, but that is why it is called a performance hybrid. The Camry and Altima hybrids are only "Full" hybrids that are mated with lesser engines than the HAH so they will be only average performers - probably only marginally quicker than the slower than average Prius. If the Fusion actually comes with the 6 cylinder, then it could be the only real competition in the performance hybrid category for the HAH.
You're claiming the persistently charged 1250 W/kg battery-pack powering a 50 kW electric motor attached to a Planetary-CVT is somehow surpassed by the the newest Honda design. Really? That certainly isn't obvious.
Explain why.
Are you saying acceleration speed is the only thing that matters?
What about that same system utilizing a 4-cylinder engine?
"only an ASSIST hybrid, so it simply cannot compete the same way"
What same way? That was my question. As a performance hybrid the Accord's most important characteristic is "performance". Fuel Economy is secondary. Do you really believe that the Camry 4 cylinder will outhandle or out accelerate the HAH with 270+ horsepower? The Camry Hybrid will be a nice midline family sedan, but do you really believe it will have sub 7 second 0-60 times. That would make it about 3 seconds faster to 60 than the present Camry 4 cylinder auto. "Obviously not" would obviously be two good words for the answer.
The two sedans will only compete because of the Toyota vs. Honda thing and because they are of very similar size. Otherwise it is performance vs. fuel economy. One will destroy the other in its strong suit, so they are very different vehicles. It is not just the Toyota hybrid portion vs Honda hybrid portion; it is also Camry 4 cylinder vs. Accord 6 cylinder.
What is your guess on the MSRP of the Camry Hybrid? I guessed about 24-29k, and people though I was crazy as they believed that was way overpriced especially if it sells for sticker unlike 3-4k discounts on the regular Camry.
Audi, Volkswagen and Porsche all confirmed they will build petrol/electric hybrid models in the next few years, and at this week's Frankfurt Motor Show even BMW announced it will develop hybrid technology.
The Camry will have a 4cyl engine whereas Honda has a 6 cyl engine, hence less fuel mileage. I still think the Camry will have a hard time achieving real world FE above 40. Regardless, I think it will be much more successful than you think. I believe the HH and RH and doing better than expected. Didn't you predict that they would be duds too?
Thanks for posting that informative link. Hard to imagine that they'd make an SUV hybrid before a sedan. If they made an A4 hybrid that got 40mpg they'd sell quite a bit here in the States.
Comments
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/18/automobiles/18HYBRID.html?oref=login
But a 23-page emergency response guide published by Toyota lists two procedures for disarming the vehicle, including a seven-step process that begins with blocking the wheels and includes taking the key 16 feet away from the car. Rescuers must check for a ready light on the dashboard, which indicates the car is on, before pushing the power button to turn it off. If the light is not on and the button is pushed, rescuers might in fact be switching the Prius on.
A quicker method requires opening the rear hatch, removing the luggage compartment floor and a shallow plastic trunk pan to reach and disconnect the car's 12-volt battery, which isolates the power systems. Even then, the manual warns, the high-voltage system holds a charge for five minutes. If air bags have already deployed, though, circuit breakers should have automatically disconnected high-voltage wiring, according to the Toyota manual.
Yeah, if I'm dying in my car, I want the rescuers to be wading through a 23 page manual (assuming they even have it), and then waiting an additional 5 mins for the charge to drain.
http://tinyurl.com/cjnr5
I tell you, I am very impressed with this car.
The doors and the door areas.
There are no "high voltage wires" running in those areas.
What are the odds of any rescue workers cutting through the BOTTOM of the car to get someone out?
Rescue workers ARE going to need to be trained, and not only for the Prius, but for ALL existing and upcoming hybrids. Just another part of their training they will be REQUIRED to learn. No big whoop.
It's a bunch of chatter about nothing - like Seinfeld.....
Too bad the North American version is not as safe as the EU version. No rear disk brakes, side airbags $600 option. All standard in the Prius sold in Europe. We are second class in the Toyota play book.
All cars by ALL manufacturers are differently equipped in various countries, a fact you know very well.
Car makers are required in different areas and countries and continents to make certain equipment STANDARD and they then choose what to make optional, based on ECONOMICS, which is what ALL car makers are in business to do - make money.
Last I checked, NO car company is in the charity business.
So I suspect those European Spec Prius are only getting the safety features required by the EU.
My panels will pay themselves back in less than 10 years (with conservative assumptions). Yes, this does include rebtes I received at construction, but power plant builders also get major tax incentives, etc., so it's not like this is apples and oranges.
oh, and my solar panels create ZERO emissions, which you can't really say about a power plant, can you?
Having lived in Europe, I was aware of the non-us Spec cars. However, many European countries do now mandate certain features. One thing is sure: if the EU didn't require the features (or the public demand them), Toyota would not put those "desirable" features (like rear disk brakes) on the EU Prius.
The basic frame & etc. would not vary from country to country...
Who really cares enough to pay? There is nothing to gain. Just people with legitimate concerns about the way we are headed in the country with our automobiles. I was as gungho about hybrids 5 years ago as anyone. Now I am not so sure they are a good direction. All anyone has come up with is a small saving in gas and an even smaller gain in lowering emissions. At a good size premium So how do you like your hybrid by now? I love mine.
The doors and the door areas.
There are no "high voltage wires" running in those areas.
What are the odds of any rescue workers cutting through the BOTTOM of the car to get someone out?
Rescue workers ARE going to need to be trained, and not only for the Prius, but for ALL existing and upcoming hybrids. Just another part of their training they will be REQUIRED to learn. No big whoop.
I agree that most of the time, hybrids will be safe for rescuers to get into. However, this "training" you're talking about - who is going to pay for that? Who is going to make sure that they are up on the latest hybrids? Also, right or wrong, rescuers are going to be far more wary about breaking into a hybrid vehicle, and will take longer to do it. Sad, but true.
djr3, "Hybrid Honda Accord 2005" #3192, 17 Sep 2005 8:30 am
Amazing as it may seem, there are going to be folks who disagree with your position on some issues. That is NOT a reason to attack them personally or try to mock them in any manner.
You're going to change their mind just about the time they change yours. Agree to disagree and move on.
http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050919.006/bmw/1.html
In your post #2856, you neglected to quote a couple of earlier paragraphs from the same NY Times article. They read:
"Mona Richard, a Toyota spokeswoman, said disarming the latest generation of the Prius, which uses an electronic key and a dashboard pushbutton to start the engine, is simple: just open the car door and press the button marked "power" on the dashboard.
"We have thousands of hybrid vehicles out there, and there's never been one incident," Ms. Richard said."
I guess that wasn't "COOL".
http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/sw121514_20050919.htm
In your post #2856, you neglected to quote a couple of earlier paragraphs from the same NY Times article. They read:
"Mona Richard, a Toyota spokeswoman, said disarming the latest generation of the Prius, which uses an electronic key and a dashboard pushbutton to start the engine, is simple: just open the car door and press the button marked "power" on the dashboard.
"We have thousands of hybrid vehicles out there, and there's never been one incident," Ms. Richard said."
Actually, I almost included Ms. Richard's statement because of it's stupidity. In a situation requiring the Jaws of Life, it's not "easy" to open the car door and press the "power" button. That's even assuming that the power button is even functional at that point depending on the damage to the vehicle.
And the reason there's "never been an incident" is because there are only a few hundred thousand vehicles out there. That's peanuts volume compared to the best-selling cars and SUV's. Try and find a picture of a smashed-up F-150 on the internet - there's probably hundreds. Now try and find a picture of a smashed up MINI Cooper or some such. Good luck.
"You have to realize that hybrids on the market now go for a $3,000 to $3,500 premium, and that only covers a fraction of the costs," he said.
Asked if Ford was making any money on hybrid sales, he said: "I don't know if anyone is making money on them, and if they do, I think that would be a very interesting economic study."
http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/20/Autos/bc.autos.summit.ford.hybrids.reut/index.htm
http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/21/Autos/ford_hybrid/
Nevertheless, hybrids have limited market potential, especially given the similar efficiency that a modern diesel engine affords, he said.
"In the United States we think the share of hybrids in specific areas will be there, but we also believe that diesels will pass the 10 percent threshold before hybrids do," he said.
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyID=2005-09-20T13551- 5Z_01_EIC050019_RTRIDST_0_SCIENCE-DAIMLERCHRYSLER-HYBRIDS-DC.XML
In regards to the DCC link:
“Nevertheless, hybrids have limited market potential, especially given the similar efficiency that a modern diesel engine affords But especially in the luxury car segment interest was present for diesel hybrids as long as they offer fuel efficiency, meet emissions standards, perform well, are fun to drive and can be marketed at a reasonable price, he said.”
Ok DCC, where is that modern diesel here in America that has the performance and FE of the gasoline electric hybrid for a reasonable price? I see only (1) E320D on your US web site at a mind boggling $52,000 w/ an EPA rating of 27/37 and it is not available in the 5 clean states. The rest of the country will be using the same emissions regulation starting next year! Maybe DCC hasn’t yet heard of the $32,000 Honda Accord Hybrid (29/37) with the same or similar 0 - 60 in 6.5 second results except that it’s a PZEV for the 06 MY including the best NAVI in the business. Wait until the rest of the world sees what MB charges for the following which is std. in the Accord Hybrid w/ NAVI by comparison
NAVI - $1450
Sirius Sat Radio - $500
6-disc CD Changer - $430
Heated Front Seats - $690
MB E320D: Passenger Volume 97 Cu. Ft./Luggage Volume 14 Cu. Ft.
Honda Accord Hybrid: Passenger Volume 103 Cu. Ft./Luggage Volume 11 Cu. Ft.
Who is fooling who or does a wood dash inlay and higher quality leather seats actually cost MB $20,000?
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Drop by for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!
kirstie_h
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
"Initiating a pilot program that will offset the greenhouse gasses emitted in the manufacture of hybrid vehicles. The carbon offset program will pay for projects around the world that reduce carbon dioxide emissions."
Please pay attention to the topics that you are posting in. We can't have every topic go off in every direction. Thanks.
http://renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=36741
I think the success of this, like anything else, will be tied to whether or not the concept can make economic sense.
And for a look at the concept of the technology:
http://www.encorecleanenergy.com/default.asp?c=2503
Every little bit helps, and a step towards recaputring some of the wasted energy of internal combustion is good.Will be interesting to see how this develops.
"About a year from now, expect hybrid and four-wheel-drive versions to join the lineup."
Sounds like the HAH and Camry may have some competition...
Accord-Hybrid is only an ASSIST hybrid, so it simply cannot compete the same way.
Fusion will be a FULL hybrid, but unless the battery-pack technology and stealth speed currently offered by Ford is upgraded, Camry will have a clear advantage.
JOHN
You're claiming the persistently charged 1250 W/kg battery-pack powering a 50 kW electric motor attached to a Planetary-CVT is somehow surpassed by the the newest Honda design. Really? That certainly isn't obvious.
Explain why.
Are you saying acceleration speed is the only thing that matters?
What about that same system utilizing a 4-cylinder engine?
JOHN
What same way? That was my question. As a performance hybrid the Accord's most important characteristic is "performance". Fuel Economy is secondary. Do you really believe that the Camry 4 cylinder will outhandle or out accelerate the HAH with 270+ horsepower? The Camry Hybrid will be a nice midline family sedan, but do you really believe it will have sub 7 second 0-60 times. That would make it about 3 seconds faster to 60 than the present Camry 4 cylinder auto. "Obviously not" would obviously be two good words for the answer.
The two sedans will only compete because of the Toyota vs. Honda thing and because they are of very similar size. Otherwise it is performance vs. fuel economy. One will destroy the other in its strong suit, so they are very different vehicles. It is not just the Toyota hybrid portion vs Honda hybrid portion; it is also Camry 4 cylinder vs. Accord 6 cylinder.
What is your guess on the MSRP of the Camry Hybrid? I guessed about 24-29k, and people though I was crazy as they believed that was way overpriced especially if it sells for sticker unlike 3-4k discounts on the regular Camry.
Audi, Volkswagen and Porsche all confirmed they will build petrol/electric hybrid models in the next few years, and at this week's Frankfurt Motor Show even BMW announced it will develop hybrid technology.