Have there been any detailed news reports on the upcoming Hyundai Accent/Kia Rio hybrids? I have seen the story about intro in the fall of 2006, but any word on the type of technology, engine size, or expected economy?
"Kia Motors Corp. U.S. Chief Executive Peter Butterfield said Tuesday that the Seoul-based automaker will develop a "hybrid" model sooner than planned as rising U.S. fuel prices push buyers into more fuel-efficient models.
The shift has prompted Hyundai Motor Co.'s Kia affiliate to pull forward a program for a model using a combination of electric motor and gasoline engine to either late 2006 or early 2007, Butterfield said.
And the only thing that will change the buying decisions is the pain at the pump. Unfortunately most people seem to have a high pain threshold. Either that or they just never think about it hard enough to see how much of their disposable income they are flushing. People who expect American consumers to make responsible decisions based on altruistic ideals are going to be disapointed.
Most people don't need huge trucks, even in Texas, except for their image. The majority of Texas' population lives in urban areas and many people in rural areas really don't need them either. They WANT them for the few times a year that they use the capabilities, but could easily rent when the need arises.
I agree that an F350 CrewCab is overkill for a solo commuter. Of my 4 vehicles I would rather drive my PU truck than any of the others including the Lexus. I force myself to drive the Passat TDI as it is the most economical. I do not feel as safe in it as I do the PU. There are a higher percentage of big PU trucks and SUVs than any other vehicles. Besides my PU has the best climate control of all the others. I would expand on your position with why does anyone NEED a vehicle. You can ride a bike to the bus and get where you are going. I think that is possible in most parts of the USA.
If you think hybrids are getting popular, wait till the hurricane hits New Orleans. Then the oil's gonna hit the fan. If you think $3.00 a gallon hurts wait till you see the expected oil prices and gas rates by the end of this week!! My Prius is looking better all the time. I wish no ill will on N'awlins but last time I was there it was scary knowing that the city is 8 ft under sea level and the up coming storm surge is expected to be between 16- 20 ft. OHHH! MY!!! GODDD!! 30plus percent of our oil refining is there. Fill up now folks.
See the IIHS ratings from the Ford Fullsize truck. It is an excellent safe choice unlike the old truck link you provided. The rating is slightly better than the Nissan Titan and clearly better than the Toyota Tundra, Mini Cooper, Toyota Prius, or Chevy Colorado.
Too bad Toyota cannot see the advantages to a plugin hybrid. It would solve those short trip low mileage complaints.
DaimlerChrysler engineers have developed two variants of the new dual-drive Sprinter. In the “Plug-In” van model, the diesel engine is accompanied by a 70-kW electric motor and a socket for charging the battery. The other version of the Hybrid Sprinter has no charging socket and is equipped with a somewhat smaller electric motor producing 30 kW of output. This motor’s battery has a capacity of three kilowatt-hours, which translates into a range of three to four kilometers when the electric motor is used exclusively - enough for operation in just about any pedestrian zone.
Not to hijack the thread but there are thousands upon thousands of those trucks out there that can and will kill people. I am glad Ford changed the design. Lord help the other people that have the prior model years. Bigger does not always mean better.
I did last night! I know prices are going up today. What really doesn't make sense is that the inventory in the tanks was purchased at OLDER prices, but they still raise the price anyway!
So we have a comparison above between a hybrid SUV and a non-hybrid SUV. Guess which one got superior mileage and was chosen by the test drivers? HINT: It was not the RX400H!
Are you sure of that? The MB is able to pass Euro4 emissions without the Particulate filter that was used in this test. I would bet that the diesel has lower CO2 output than the RH. The urea filter will all but eliminate NoX. I have not seen the EPA rating on the RH or HH yet.
The CO2 for the Lexus is less but not by much. As to particulate matter and NOx that's another story. The Lexus trumps the Merc. Not to mention the reliability issue which is something Mercedes needs to work on. I hope they do bring a reliable iteration here to the states. Something spendy won't do either. Perhaps that engine in the A class would be a nice start. How about it Mercedes?
The problem is the public does NOT want a plug in hybrid. I'd actually prefer a pure electric car for short trips. What a shame GM didn't allow people to buy those electric cars they leased back a number of years ago. Just imagine how cool it would be to have a vehicle that can go say 50 MPH tops with a range of 100 miles. I can't believe no one has come up with something like that.
I partially agree with that. I looked into the Gem electric. It has a top speed of 25 MPH and is not allowed on any street posted over 35 MPH. That eliminated me as the first main street out of our subdivision is posted 45 MPH. I do think if Toyota offered the Prius with a plugin option it would be popular. Most people I know make a lot of 2-5 mile trips on streets that are no more than 45 MPH. Being able to do those trips on commercial AC power would be a big savings. I think the first company to market a reasonably priced plugin hybrid will do real well.
This electric motor technology will hopefully make it into Hybrid cars at some future point !!
"Zero Emissions Evo IX MIEV Produces 268-HP and 1,528 LB-FT of Torque
The 2005 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX (ninth generation in case you were wondering) is set to go rallying later this week. While this news wouldnt be out of the ordinary, given the Lancers winning history in rally racing, this is no ordinary Evo, and the rally event isnt an FIA sanctioned WRC event. Instead of burning high-octane gasoline, this car runs on volts and amps. The vehicle in question is Mitsubishis Lancer Evo IX MIEV (Mitsubishi In-Wheel Electric Vehicle) prototype, and the rally is this years Shikoku Electric Vehicle Rally."
That was interesting. Sounds like there is disagreement between engineers on diesel vs hybrid. The sad part is we are no longer going to be able to KISS. The days of a nice simple car that you could fix yourself are gone. It makes it tough for those that would like to venture out beyond the Interstate highways. I think there is room for any technology that gets better mileage. I am not thrilled with all the computerized controls on newer cars. It makes you a captive to the dealers repair shop.
Didn't that ship leave the harbor ten years ago? All of the fuel injection and emissions controls are electronic and difficult to work on. Not to mention the transmission's controls and all of the electronic gadgets.
Diesels will provide better mileage, but they aren't very clean so will either need to be made so or will not be accepted by areas with smog problems. The new fuel standards for lower sulfer diesel will help, but not eliminate diesel's particulate problems.
I drove diesels for ten years - from two Peugeots (4-cyl inline), a Datsun Maxima (6-cyl inline), a Mercedes 300D (5-cyl inline), to an Oldsmobile (a cobbled V-8 disaster to let GM cash in on the craze). None of 'em were cheap to maintain (what with special motor oil requirments) or fix (no spark plugs, but glow plugs which were in use at the time for cold starts were $15.00-$20.00 a pop if the filament coil opened). Now that #2 diesel fuel is priced by BTU content instead of as a nuisance refining afterthought, they're not cheap to keep filled, either - the stuff's higher out here than unleaded 91 octane. While I owned them, I enjoyed their advantages, but if California allowed unrestricted sales of diesel passenger vehicles again, I don't believe I'd be even remotely tempted.
Most diesels sold in Europe are equipped with particulate filters. If you were to put one on a car in the US with our crappy diesel it would not last long. My understanding with ULSD (currently available in CA) a particulate filter & urea filter for the NoX, the diesel cars are very clean. Maybe not up to PZEV but as clean as most cars on the road and much better on CO2 emissions. If the biodiesel industry ever catches up with demand those cars will be as clean if not cleaner than the best of the hybrids.
Have you driven the E320 CDI? It outperforms the gas version and gets 37 MPG on the road. It is a nice car. I like my 2005 Passat TDI, just a bit small. Fun to drive and I love that torque on on the highway.
Perhaps, but in that case we could just as easily see hybrids using E85, which would also be very clean.
It should be noted that a gallon of diesel produces more CO2 than a gallon of gas when burned. So just because a diesel gets better mileage than a gasoline engine doesn't necessarily mean it produces less CO2.
Diesel's could potentially benefit from hybrid technology as well, although they may not tolerate being started and stopped so frequently without something to keep them warm.
Mercedes new diesels have very low CO2 output, but more NOx than a clean gas engine. The article was indeed interesting, but it looks like they're a ways of from coming to market. In the meantime hybrids seem like a safe bet.
Why do you say they have very low C02 output? If it gets 40 mpg, then the CO2 output is 1/2 that of a diesel car getting 20 mpg.
The heat produced by a heat engine burning fossil fuels comes from the chemical reaction where hydrocarbons, which have H and C molecules in a long chain are combined with oxygen to create H2O and CO2. For every C molecule in the diesel, you get a CO2 molecule. This is also true of gasoline, but the molecules are different so one or the other could produce more CO2 per gallon. If diesel tends to have lots of H and little C, then it very well could produce way less CO2 than gasoline. Diesel does have more BTUs per gallon than gasoline, but that really doesn't answer the question.
I tried to find information about the number of carbon atoms in a gallon of diesel vs a gallon of gasoline, but I couln't find the info. Alternately, a description of the amount of CO2 produced by burning each would give the same information. If I have time this evening, I'll try to look for more info on the content of each fuel.
I found the answer. Both diesel and gasoline are about 85% carbon by weight. Diesel weighs more per gallon and thus has more BTUs. Burning each to produce the same number of BTUs will result in roughly the same amount of CO2.
Diesel has 18% more energy per gallon. Burning 1.18 gallons of gasoline releases the same amount of CO2 as burning a gallon of diesel.
A diesl car getting 40 mpgs will produce the same amount of CO2 as a gasoline powered car getting 33.9 mpg if each are driven the same distance. The diesel car will produce more particulates and sulfates.
I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was only trying to understand what you meant. In the process I decided to answer my own question about whether diesel produces less CO2 than gasoline.
I found that diesel produces 18% more CO2 per gallon than gasoline. So, to achieve low CO2 output, you must achieve high mpg, whether you are talking about a diesel or a gasoline engine--hybrid or not. And when comparing gasoline to diesel, the diesel must get 18% better mpg to have lower CO2 emissions.
The Lexus hybrid has fairly poor CO2 output because it only gets mid to high 20s for mpg. A diesel that gets 30 mpg would compare favorably to it. The lexus hybrid actually produces much more CO2 than a regular 4 cyl Camry.
WIth the soon-to-be low sulphur diesel and the new emissions regulations in N. America---diesel will be CLEAN! A diesel with low emissions and good fuel efficiecny provides a wonderful alternative to hybrids.
My key worry about owning a diesel will be future prices. The diesel premium over gasoline has been increasing these past few years and may increase even further. Diesel is a commercail fuel and with thirsty emerging markets and increased trade--diesel may sell at at even a higher premium to gasoline prices.
It depends what state you're in (makes no sense to me!). In NJ, diesel is a few pennies less than regular. In NY diesel is $0.20 more than regular which can certainly add up. From what I have been reading it does not look like any new diesels (affordable) are on the horizon. We only have to choose from Volkswagon or Mercedes. The VW is very tempting to me, but I already own a Prius. I am considering the VW for my wife. In the meantime many people I work with have taken interest in my silver pod. Gas is around $2.75 today.
Depends on which emissions you're trying to prevent. A diesel vehicle would have to achieve nearly 60 mpg to produce less CO2 than a Prius or the 06 Civic hybrid. A hybrid diesel could achieve this but I haven't heard about any hybrid diesel passenger cars.
Plus even with the cleaner fuels and emisison standars, the new diesels will still produce more particulates (which come from non combusted carbon) and sulfer, which causes acid rain. Gasoline engines produce these as well, but they have been greatly reduced through the use of additives in gasoline.
I agree that diesels will provide an alternative to hybrids, though.
There have been discussions in these forums for some time, regarding potential safety concerns for emergency responders when dealing with hybrid vehicles involved in accidents. The matter of the orange cables has been addressed here several times. I just came across this interesting three-page link:
I like to pooh-pooh political correctness, and things apparently designed to appeal to the liberal mindset. Hence my built-in aversion to hybrid cars, which at first bloom seemed to be a case of pandering to the enviro-whacko fringe.
After all, Honda’s first hybrid, the Insight, was indeed a technological marvel, but so utterly impractical as anything other than a commuter vehicle — not that there’s necessarily anything wrong with that. The Insight sipped gas, but with only two seats and limited storage space — and anemic power — it wasn’t really a vehicle you could take into the mountain passes and expect pulling power. I know this because that’s exactly where I took it.
Look, I have nothing against hybrids as such especially as a techno guy. But hybrids seemed to up the gas mileage ante at the expense of the "fun to drive" I love so much, and at a price that means you’ll probably never recover the extra outlay unless gas prices approach the price of premium bottled water.
Then along comes the second generation Toyota Prius for review and I’m all set to dust off my political correctness jokes to pepper my column on the hybrid.
But then, this fantastic car blew me away on its own terms! Again, my face is red - or is it green?"
I know it's on everyone's mind, but we need to keep the topics in mind when posting. I'll be moving all these posts about gasoline hoarding and what not over to the How Are You Dealing With High Priced Gasoline? discussion on the News & Views board.
Let's keep this topic for Hybrids in the news items. Thanks!
Storing Fuel at home is frowned upon and now that gas prices have soared thru the roof it appears that hybrid owners can feel good about taking the plunge into the green technology. Its not an ..."I told you so attitude" mind you, but an attitude of good fortune coming our way because who could have known what was to come? Somehow I feel .....I really don't have a right to complain about gas prices when so many good people have endured the worst of times losing everything in one of America's most horriffic catastrophies. I sure hope that WE, as a nation, pull together and rise above these difficult times. Railroadjames (Hybrids Save Bread)
Comments
http://www.kcchronicle.com/BusinessSection/327498364036624.php
Kia: Hybrid coming
"Kia Motors Corp. U.S. Chief Executive Peter Butterfield said Tuesday that the Seoul-based automaker will develop a "hybrid" model sooner than planned as rising U.S. fuel prices push buyers into more fuel-efficient models.
The shift has prompted Hyundai Motor Co.'s Kia affiliate to pull forward a program for a model using a combination of electric motor and gasoline engine to either late 2006 or early 2007, Butterfield said.
— Bloomberg News"
Most people don't need huge trucks, even in Texas, except for their image. The majority of Texas' population lives in urban areas and many people in rural areas really don't need them either. They WANT them for the few times a year that they use the capabilities, but could easily rent when the need arises.
I agree that an F350 CrewCab is overkill for a solo commuter. Of my 4 vehicles I would rather drive my PU truck than any of the others including the Lexus. I force myself to drive the Passat TDI as it is the most economical. I do not feel as safe in it as I do the PU. There are a higher percentage of big PU trucks and SUVs than any other vehicles. Besides my PU has the best climate control of all the others. I would expand on your position with why does anyone NEED a vehicle. You can ride a bike to the bus and get where you are going. I think that is possible in most parts of the USA.
http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINICooperVsFordF150
If I had to have a pickup I'd either get the Titan or possibly the Colorado.
IIHS Link
DaimlerChrysler engineers have developed two variants of the new dual-drive Sprinter. In the “Plug-In” van model, the diesel engine is accompanied by a 70-kW electric motor and a socket for charging the battery. The other version of the Hybrid Sprinter has no charging socket and is equipped with a somewhat smaller electric motor producing 30 kW of output. This motor’s battery has a capacity of three kilowatt-hours, which translates into a range of three to four kilometers when the electric motor is used exclusively - enough for operation in just about any pedestrian zone.
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-7165-1-456546-1-0-0-0-0-0-243-7165-0-0-0-0-0-0- -0,00.html
So we have a comparison above between a hybrid SUV and a non-hybrid SUV. Guess which one got superior mileage and was chosen by the test drivers?
HINT: It was not the RX400H!
Are you sure of that? The MB is able to pass Euro4 emissions without the Particulate filter that was used in this test. I would bet that the diesel has lower CO2 output than the RH. The urea filter will all but eliminate NoX. I have not seen the EPA rating on the RH or HH yet.
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103069
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-diesel28aug28,1,3279063.story?coll=la-headlines-busi- - ness
Cheaper than milk, coffee, and water, depending on how you look at it !!
"Zero Emissions Evo IX MIEV Produces 268-HP and 1,528 LB-FT of Torque
The 2005 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX (ninth generation in case you were wondering) is set to go rallying later this week. While this news wouldnt be out of the ordinary, given the Lancers winning history in rally racing, this is no ordinary Evo, and the rally event isnt an FIA sanctioned WRC event. Instead of burning high-octane gasoline, this car runs on volts and amps. The vehicle in question is Mitsubishis Lancer Evo IX MIEV (Mitsubishi In-Wheel Electric Vehicle) prototype, and the rally is this years Shikoku Electric Vehicle Rally."
http://car-reviews.automobile.com/news/mitsubishi-creates-electrifying-lancer-evo-ix-miev-- concept/1403/
How does that pickup do in rollovers? I'd bet not too good...
The bottling is where all of the cost comes from. What a silly editorial with nonsensical comparisons.
Diesels will provide better mileage, but they aren't very clean so will either need to be made so or will not be accepted by areas with smog problems. The new fuel standards for lower sulfer diesel will help, but not eliminate diesel's particulate problems.
Have you driven the E320 CDI? It outperforms the gas version and gets 37 MPG on the road. It is a nice car. I like my 2005 Passat TDI, just a bit small. Fun to drive and I love that torque on on the highway.
It should be noted that a gallon of diesel produces more CO2 than a gallon of gas when burned. So just because a diesel gets better mileage than a gasoline engine doesn't necessarily mean it produces less CO2.
Diesel's could potentially benefit from hybrid technology as well, although they may not tolerate being started and stopped so frequently without something to keep them warm.
The heat produced by a heat engine burning fossil fuels comes from the chemical reaction where hydrocarbons, which have H and C molecules in a long chain are combined with oxygen to create H2O and CO2. For every C molecule in the diesel, you get a CO2 molecule. This is also true of gasoline, but the molecules are different so one or the other could produce more CO2 per gallon. If diesel tends to have lots of H and little C, then it very well could produce way less CO2 than gasoline. Diesel does have more BTUs per gallon than gasoline, but that really doesn't answer the question.
I tried to find information about the number of carbon atoms in a gallon of diesel vs a gallon of gasoline, but I couln't find the info. Alternately, a description of the amount of CO2 produced by burning each would give the same information. If I have time this evening, I'll try to look for more info on the content of each fuel.
Diesel has 18% more energy per gallon. Burning 1.18 gallons of gasoline releases the same amount of CO2 as burning a gallon of diesel.
A diesl car getting 40 mpgs will produce the same amount of CO2 as a gasoline powered car getting 33.9 mpg if each are driven the same distance. The diesel car will produce more particulates and sulfates.
I found that diesel produces 18% more CO2 per gallon than gasoline. So, to achieve low CO2 output, you must achieve high mpg, whether you are talking about a diesel or a gasoline engine--hybrid or not. And when comparing gasoline to diesel, the diesel must get 18% better mpg to have lower CO2 emissions.
The Lexus hybrid has fairly poor CO2 output because it only gets mid to high 20s for mpg. A diesel that gets 30 mpg would compare favorably to it. The lexus hybrid actually produces much more CO2 than a regular 4 cyl Camry.
My key worry about owning a diesel will be future prices. The diesel premium over gasoline has been increasing these past few years and may increase even further. Diesel is a commercail fuel and with thirsty emerging markets and increased trade--diesel may sell at at even a higher premium to gasoline prices.
Plus even with the cleaner fuels and emisison standars, the new diesels will still produce more particulates (which come from non combusted carbon) and sulfer, which causes acid rain. Gasoline engines produce these as well, but they have been greatly reduced through the use of additives in gasoline.
I agree that diesels will provide an alternative to hybrids, though.
http://www.firehouse.com/extrication/archives/2001/july01.html
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/bray083105a.htm
"Well, is my face red.
I like to pooh-pooh political correctness, and things apparently designed to appeal to the liberal mindset. Hence my built-in aversion to hybrid cars, which at first bloom seemed to be a case of pandering to the enviro-whacko fringe.
After all, Honda’s first hybrid, the Insight, was indeed a technological marvel, but so utterly impractical as anything other than a commuter vehicle — not that there’s necessarily anything wrong with that. The Insight sipped gas, but with only two seats and limited storage space — and anemic power — it wasn’t really a vehicle you could take into the mountain passes and expect pulling power. I know this because that’s exactly where I took it.
Look, I have nothing against hybrids as such especially as a techno guy. But hybrids seemed to up the gas mileage ante at the expense of the "fun to drive" I love so much, and at a price that means you’ll probably never recover the extra outlay unless gas prices approach the price of premium bottled water.
Then along comes the second generation Toyota Prius for review and I’m all set to dust off my political correctness jokes to pepper my column on the hybrid.
But then, this fantastic car blew me away on its own terms! Again, my face is red - or is it green?"
If the gas prices continue in this range, sep sales will crash.
Let's keep this topic for Hybrids in the news items. Thanks!
Somehow I feel .....I really don't have a right to complain about gas prices when so many good people have endured the worst of times losing everything in one of America's most horriffic catastrophies. I sure hope that WE, as a nation, pull together and rise above these difficult times.
Railroadjames (Hybrids Save Bread)